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Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence (Read 19652 times)
Fireblade
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Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
05/23/12 at 15:00:38
 
Hi!  I need to know the optimal switching sequence when Turning On and OFF the Mini Torii.  Last night I turned OFF the ones in front first and heard a 'thump' even though the volume pods were at the zero position.

The Mini has switches for the transformers and input voltage regulation (1 ea., on both sides), and in the front for each channel, plus the tone control toggle switch.  There must be an optimal sequence to turning the amp ON and OFF.  I don't want to risk damaging something.

Thanks for any information.

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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #1 - 05/23/12 at 18:02:55
 
Any suggestions, anyone?
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Lon
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #2 - 05/23/12 at 18:10:04
 
I don't have a MT as you know. Is there not a main power supply on and off switch? If so there should be no harm in using that one. You won't have to turn the tone control on and off. . just leave that however it it is set for powering the unit on or off.
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #3 - 05/23/12 at 18:20:21
 
No, it does not.  There are all these switches, no main one that I can see.  I'm not worried about the tone control, I just do not want to have schock waves hitting the speakers or amp due to a sub-optimal switching sequence.  The manual doesn't show this either.

I could leave everything ON, and simply use the main powering switch from my isolation transformer. Yet, I'm not sure this is advisable either.  What would happen with someone not using an isolation transformer or a dedicated Mains circuit in that case?

I think if I kill the switches on the back side first (transformers I believe), there's no thump.  There's a thump when I do the opposite (turning off the ones in front for each channel first, in a reverse sequence).  From the little I know about tube amps, some components should be energized before others, to avoid some kind of accumulated energy jump or something.  This may explain the design need for having 3 switches per side (not counting the tone control).

Let's see if someone else with a M-T has some clues.  Thanks, Lon.
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ZYGI
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #4 - 05/23/12 at 21:22:19
 
Although I have a Mini-T, it seems its not the same as everyone else's Mini-T

On my unit, there are switches on the back to turn the voltage regulator tubes,  for I believe the input tubes, on and off, or in and out of the circuit, however you want to look at it.

FB don't you turn your Mini-T on and off with the volume controls? That is how mine is. The thump I get is the OA3's are de-energized. Your not going to hurt the speaker from the thump you hear from turning off the amp.

What you've heard about gear needing to be turning on/off in any particular order is when using a tubed pre-amp with a power amp, you want to turn the pre on first, let it stabilize, then the amp. The reverse is the proper way to turn off, amp first, then the pre.

The reason I know its the OA3 making the popping sound is only one channel pops, so I flip the tube from one channel to the other and the pop followed the tube. I have others here, just never bothered to switch them out as I wasn't concerned with the popping.
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ZYGI
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #5 - 05/23/12 at 21:23:35
 
By the way, is there a owners manual on line for the Mini-T?

I looked, couldn't find one....I have to admit I didn't give it much effort!
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #6 - 05/23/12 at 22:19:01
 
Hey Zygi,

Here's the link for the manual:

https://www.decware.com/newsite/Minitoriimanual.pdf

I know now if I turn the amp OFF by starting from the back, horizontally (i.e., both channels in the outermost row, before going to the next row of switches going forward), I don't hear a thing.  This is how I'm doing it since I heard the thump.  I use this same sequence to turn it on.  In both cases I make sure the volume pods are at the cero position.

In my unit, each channel's volume is not a switch, just volume pods.   You can isolate use of one channel by just not turning on the switches (3) on either side.

My question now is if it is ok to do it this way or to use the isolation transformer power switch and turn everything ON or OFF that way (all 6 switches would stay always in the ON position, of course).

This may sound trivial to most of you, and I apologize, but I want to make sure I don't screw up something inadvertently, as I know nothing about this amp.  In my earlier tube system (back in the day), each monoblock (225 Deluxe VTL) had a power switch controlling all tubes in that block.  I would turn the preamp on first and off last, as you said.  The only difference is my pre was SS at the time (ARC LS-3).

I know a pair of those switches are toggle switches to bypass the input tube voltage regulation stage.  I suppose another pair (closer to the transformers) would kill the transformers.  I'm not sure what the 3rd pair of switches (at the very front) do, exactly.  

Thanks for your inputs.
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HPDJ
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #7 - 05/23/12 at 22:47:28
 
Hey Fireblade,

I believe the two switches on the front are to switch between sources connected to the two inputs on the back of the unit...I used to think it was some sort of standby switch because when I flicked it off I heard no music, but that's because I only have one source connected to it..

I have a headphone mod on my MT and those switches are to the far left and right on the back. When I switch those (headphone) switches on, my speakers are cancelled and the headphone input (on the front of my unit) is engaged. I haven't messed with the tube regulation switches yet. I just leave them on...

I do hear a little "thump" when I turn the MT on...it happens just as the OA3 and OC2 tube regulators "pop" to life. The thump doesn't bother me at all and I don't think it's doing any harm to my system so...

Anyway I'm probably not really answering your question so I hope the others chime in once they can Smiley
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #8 - 05/24/12 at 00:41:49
 
Hey HPDJ,

Thanks for reminding me about the input selection switches up front (I only have one input myself, so I had just forgotten about the 2nd pair of inputs available  :) )

I see what you mean and I probably agree.  Besides, when I follow the described sequence, it does not thump at all and I just feel better because of it.  Therefore, in conclusion DuHHHHH!!, the switches right next to the trannies are literally the power switches, as everything else is optional (input regulation, input selection and tone control).

Thanks for your inputs.
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HPDJ
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #9 - 05/24/12 at 02:35:57
 
Heyyyy that's cool, glad I could help somehow Cheesy

I was slightly embarrassed when I finally called Steve to ask about what some of the switches were for haha...I thought I could figure it out on my own, but then I was a little confused. Glad to see that it wasn't just me Smiley He of course cleared that up for me in 2 seconds.

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Rivieraranch
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #10 - 05/24/12 at 13:16:46
 
You could just pull the plug, too?
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #11 - 05/25/12 at 01:05:58
 
It turns out the switches up front are not for input selection but control the volume pods.  I guess the inputs are directly connected and the signal coming through either pair is processed accordingly.

The amp is sounding better all the time!
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HPDJ
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #12 - 05/25/12 at 07:39:26
 
^^

This confuses me...I don't think this is the case with my MT. They are definitely input selectors on mine..
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #13 - 05/25/12 at 12:16:39
 
Well, the way I found out is I turned one of the switches off while playing, and that side's volume went off.  If it was a selector, either volume would have remained on both channels or both channels would have been off.  Not the case.  Funny!

The switching setup in my M-T is fine with me, mind you.  I just wanted to know the value added on those individual switches.
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HPDJ
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #14 - 05/26/12 at 00:04:56
 
OK I see Smiley

With my MT, when I have only one source connected to one set of inputs in the back, when I flick ONE of the front switches off, the music on that channel is silenced because I have nothing connected to the unused input on that same channel. If I did, and that source was playing music, then I would have two different sources playing at the same time. One on each channel.

So sometimes I have my computer connected to the MT via the headphone jack on my laptop and some RCA's to the back of the MT, AND I have either my CD player or TT connected to the other remaining inputs. I'll flick BOTH switches on the front off and get either the music/video audio I'm watching online, OR I'll keep the switches where they are and get the music from my TT/CD player. I have nothing connected to the output's yet Smiley

Don't forget this is a dual mono amp Cheesy
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #15 - 05/26/12 at 00:29:28
 
I see what you're saying.  Being a dual mono amp, these switches toggle between those two sets of inputs provided you switch them together ... makes sense.  That explains what I found out by turning off only one of them and getting to the wrong conclusion because I thought all these switches were ON/OFF but these are not, they toggle between those inputs.  Being dual mono you have to toggle them together ... DUHHH again!!!   Sorry, and thanks for the help   Cheesy

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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #16 - 05/26/12 at 19:39:40
 
No problemo! Cheesy
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #17 - 05/27/12 at 20:37:51
 
Switches at the front switch between two possible sources. Remeber this amp really is very dual mono; switch only one of the two switches and your signal will drop out on that side only.
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #18 - 05/27/12 at 21:58:06
 
After 9 days of use, the gear is slowly shaping up and at the same time quite critical of the front end/source.  When the source is sweet, this system is unbelievable.  I'm sure there's still plenty more to come out, but I'm enjoying it immensely  :)
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Lon
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #19 - 05/27/12 at 22:25:18
 
The amp is always going to show you how brilliant the rare recordings are, and how not brilliant most are. I've worked with my tube sets to find a set where most things sound as good as they potentially can. I've sacrificed the totally awesome good as it can be so that the mediocre ones shine a bit more brightly.

It's an amazing journey of sonic discovery you've embarked on.
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #20 - 05/28/12 at 01:01:17
 
I've seen you underly this concept before, and I agree with you.  It should be much better to have the bulk of your collection's recordings sound much better at the cost of not optimizing the finer few.

How you go about achieving satisfactorily this ideal tradeoff is less clear to me.  I know it may have to do mostly with the front end specs and maybe the use of the controversial (to me) trebble cut-off control, for example.

It probably also implies less detailed-oriented sound and transparency specs and a more musically balanced, forgiving compromise and PRAT, both in your front end as well as in your amp and speakers, for example?

I suppose your peripheral (non-essential) gear (i.e., cables, IC's, power cords, etc.), as well as other anti-vibration accessories, may possibly be chosen with those objectives in mind, along with proper room conditioning?

But, is this really possible to achieve? Where do we start?  Is investing a great deal in your power generation device an example of those tradeoffs (i.e., not investing that money in more capable gear?)

As you do have the experience, maybe a summary of that evolution may be a good guide for us.  Could you enumerate those steps?  Thanks for your inputs
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Lon
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #21 - 05/28/12 at 01:38:33
 
You've pretty much outlined the steps, though I bristle at your mention of "not more capable gear." Nothing incapable about gear that has a natural and "non-audiophile detailed" sound.

The treble cut circuit is a godsend for me. And the power conditioning is something I now won't do without. I spent too much time with the isolation transformers which I can now clearly hear give the sound a pinched unnatural quality. Power cables have also really gone a long way towards making the sound more natural and giving the best qualities of the material a boost. I think that comes from the midrange. I'll chose tubes and cabling that will give an open window into the midrange and won't emphasize other frequency areas with energy.

It's a personal thing that I've had to face because . . . well two reasons I think. One, no matter how much I'd like it to be digital is not analog. I love digital, but analog has something that my ear wants and needs and I have to work on digital playback in order to sidestep some aspects about it that are no problem for me in analog. I have spent a few decades making digital work for me. The last five have been the best, really great sound. Secondly, I'm voracious in my need for music, and I couldn't for example be like a friend of mine: have about three hundred recordings that are loved and sound great and always looking for the best sound of those three hundred recordings. I have rooms of recordings, literally. I have recordings I love that were recorded by musicians and fans that really need a lot of help to sound right. I was just listening to some yesterday, recordings made over a week's time in the late fifties in an LA club where the Maynard Ferguson band was booked. The drummer recorded it. Great music, that I've learned how to listen to and which my system at least gives a fair shot. I took a disc over to a trumpeter friend's house at his request and we couldn't listen to it.

So I really don't think I can go into detail after detail, and it's a very personal thing, all I've done is find ways to make these incredible products play back in a way that my mind and heart wants to hear playback. Every step might be different done by another.

A big step in the right direction for me was the Radial speakers that Steve and Bob started making. These really allowed the sound to break free of the box, and that space and the way the tonal balance was presented allowed me to make further inroads. And then Steve came up with the treble cut circuit, which really added a valuable resource. Power regulation and cabling was the finishing touch area. The combination has really had me listening for hours and hours with enjoyment and impact and no fatigue.
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #22 - 05/28/12 at 01:52:36
 
Lon this is a really great post. And I think the best message presented is that it has taken you a long time of experimentation to get to the point that you are at. This is in essence what the hobby is all about for me. I posted yesterday that the madness is never ending, and while I was laughing as I wrote it I was dead on serious. Of course, it's a good madness. I've experienced some of the not so good and believe me this is hands down the right type for me. So to Fireblade and anyone else have fun with this. Is it the right mix of tubes? Will it be cords, wires, the way stuff is isolated, certain versions of recordings, a good day, a bad day? Yes, of courilse yes to all the above. Everything will affect the outcome. And with Steve's stuff being so transparent getting it to be right for your circumstances will take some time. Enjoy the ride. Try everything. But mostly just enjoy the journey. It's a ride well worth taking.
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #23 - 05/28/12 at 02:14:24
 
Thanks Sam. I agree, take the time, and enjoy the ride. I think that's quite fitting and par for the course with this forum, where we all enjoy the ride!

Even if we sometimes don't enjoy the wait. Smiley
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Fireblade
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #24 - 05/28/12 at 11:42:53
 
I definitely have a long way to go, to experiment and to learn.  As I read both your posts, I wonder if I was ever suspicious of what I was getting into when I started browsing this site.  The journey for me has just started, and it has already grasped me by the throat, sort of speak.  I'm re-discovering old music passions set aside for more time than I would care to reckon, just because of the thrill involved with this gear and the inherent frame of mind.

It is a hobby for me, but also a passion.  As such, I find the current offerings in terms of sound enhancement and fitting accessories very foreign to my previous (limited) experience in my attempts to try and fulfill this never-ending quest.  Therefore, I'm faced with a highly motivating challenge that demands for me to find the right approach, a 'system' with which to tackle the task.

Sometimes I feel I ask too many questions.  In my effort to understand and digest the meaningful and many times subtle related information that may enable me to separate what is real from what is illusion, I can't help to tax you guys with these demands as I don't really trust most of what is published in the media.  This is what I particularly liked about this community, as its candor reflects genuine, disinterested peer support.

Now that my horizon is clearly set out, I need to find my own path, hopefully with your invaluable assistance.  Part of this method is the re-conditioning of my own music and sound appreciation skills.  I know most of you have developed this sort of expertise at listening, which enable you to interpret the underlying cause-and-effect links to the gear structure.  You know what and where to look for in solving some of the inconsistencies you were able to naturally pick up while listening.

Thanks so much for your kind support and excuse my unavoidable future nagging questions  :).   I really love this hobby!
 
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Lon
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #25 - 05/28/12 at 15:25:23
 
I know you'll easily find your own path and walk along at your pace. You're built that way. Smiley (Takes one to know one).

I think you'll discover what many of us have: the system will season in and you'll learn to hear your recordings in new ways and your further journey will manifest itself.

The key is enjoying hte music, which you have down pat. Wink
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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #26 - 05/28/12 at 21:27:00
 
FB,

Audio is a journey and a well regarded dealer told me that it stops when you want it to. Very simple but also quite profound. It really is about enjoying the music...period.  ;)

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Re: Turning ON/OFF switches' sequence
Reply #27 - 05/29/12 at 01:57:10
 
It's more like Schubert's Winterreise (a winter's journey)  :) .  Seriously though, that journey will end when I feel I'm almost totally satisfied with the way my music sounds, which shouldn't be that far off.
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