PS: It did not occur to me to check the 6DJ8 at 2-3 o'clock with the same recording. It was too loud to listen to, but it distorted then too. I never listen this loud. So I just changed out all the tubes to be sure. Same results. Caught me off guard.

With quiet source material (some DVDs), I can turn the Torii up all the way.

So really I have two questions.

Why are the 6N1P so quiet?

Is something wrong with my Torii that I get distortion?

will, is it possible you have 6N2P tubes?  They defnintely distort earlier.

No, you lose headroom with the 6N2P. You do have 6N1Ps then.

So it's distorting within your normal listening range?  Seems odd to me, doesn't happen in my case. . . .

With the cryo'd ones they'll definitely loosen up over a handful of weeks and perhaps be able to be output more then. In my experience it took a long time for the extremes to open up on those tubes.

Yes with the 6N1P it will distort at the top of my listening range. Oddly, I never seem to get there with 6DJ8, 7DJ8, or 6922. They must just be that much louder without pushing the amp as much.

Walt, I did actually change out all the tubes. I was using Tungsol OB3 and changed to RCA OA3. And I changed from RCA OC2 to Raytheon OC2.

I don't know what is optimal for my HR-ONEs. Not sure if it is the same radial driver as in the ERRs (8ohm) or not,  but the other drivers are the same as the MG944 which are 4 ohm. I usually use 4 ohm on the Torii, but I think the distortion did become less obvious on 8 Ohm. Funny thing is I think I hear it most from the driver that is like the 944 bass driver....hard to say though.

thanks for the thoughts guys.

Interesting. Are you liking the 6N1P at all otherwise?

Cool, just curious as I love the sound, and you've never been impressed before.

Wow, will, that just seems odd to me. I mean I figure neither of us is trying to shake the walls and crack the foundation, and it would seem that the tubes the amp ships with should be able to meet our needs. The 6N1P does give me the volume I need with headroom as well, and I would think it would you as well. Are you still using the ZStage? The output of my PWD is purportedly 2.8v. I've begun leaving the Torii turned all the way up and regulating output with the PWD and there's plenty of headroom for all my sources. The one limitation is that if I have the audio range on "Wide" on my DVR I can run out of steam on the quietest of the tv channels, but that's easily fixed by selecting "Narrow" and then I can't max out the volume on that input.

I'm very lucky I guess that the 6N1P does give me what I need, as I really find that the tube offers me the right balance for my music collection: it has that forgiving element that allows me to sink into lesser sounding source material, and it's "faults" seem to counteract the "faults" of most of the mediocre to bad cds I spin. And this super-cryo''d version has been the best I've found.

I wonder if Steve has any further insight. It just doesn't seem right the way your set up is behaving with the tube to me. . . .

Thanks guys.

First, I am running DAC straight to Torii too. The USB is from computer to DAC. The USB output is maxed at the computer Audio out as is usual for USB out to DAC for transparency, bypassing internal processing. And I have a software player, Pure Music, that has a good dithered digital 'Pre' that some use, but I prefer the volume flat (no software volume processing). This does however give me a digital "pre."

I believe the Tranquility is about 2.2 volts, so not particularly low, but certainly lower than the two of you. The other source I tried is a modded Oppo, which I believe it about 2 volts out as well. The Oppo is going through the ZSTAGE so I can change the output voltage there, but have it set roughly at matched volume to the Tranquility, so presumably it is about 2.2 out.

Especially based on the output voltages you two are using, and that you can get loud playback with the 6N1P, I think my thing is very odd too. I don't have a Db meter, but I don't think I listen outrageously loud. With 6DJ8, 6922, or 7DJ8, I usually listen from about 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

I suppose the 6N1P needs roughly twice as much volume knob turn to get similar volume over the 7DJ8 could be tube design stuff, but that I can't get the lower volume tube into moderate listening levels is weird.

My explanation to Steve may not have been good enough, we were talking about several topics and I did not want to take too much time. And Lon your supposition that it is odd that my amp won't perform impressively with the tubes that ship with it is what has been on my mind too.

In light of this discussion, I just ran some tests. Using the 6N1P with a hot recording (CEU), PureMusic at 0dB (flat) through the Tranquility, oddly, I get notable distortion at about 9 o'clock, and maybe earlier, but it is so quiet I can hardly tell. Riding the PureMusic pre with the Torii volume, and keeping relatively the same loudness, the distortion remains the same with Pure way down, and the Torii way up. But I think it may get worse in the Torii 2-3 o'clock range.

Riding the volumes with the Oppo/ZSTAGE and Torii. The same things happen. So from this test, I am thinking I can say that with hot recordings, I am getting distortion with the 6N1P no matter what.

With a 7DJ8 and the Tranquility as output at 0 dB in Pure, a hot recording maxes around 12 o'clock and it is loud. Riding Pure and the Torii volumes, -13dB in Pure and about 3 o'clock is similar volume and perhaps a touch more distortion.

I wonder if there is something I am missing. Like maybe my volume pot is a little dirty, particularly in the 2-3 o'clock range or something? Or is there something else internal that is maxing out with the 6N1P but also causing the other tubes to perform less than optimally.

Any help is appreciated!!! Mr Deckart?

OK...I have had a miraculous recovery! The only thing I know is different is that I went away to have surgery for four days, probably the first four days the amp has been off in many many months. Also, i got my repaired ZDAC and wired it in as the oppo dac, where I had the oppo direct through the ZSTAGE before.

I stuck in some 6N1Ps to see if the problem might have disappeared using the ZDAC/ZSTAGE as source. NO DISTORTION until very high levels!

Changed over to the Tranquility direct into the Toriii.......NO DISTORTION.

I messed around with VRs, Rectifiers and Power tubes.....no change.


WTF!@#$%^&*()_


I don't get it. Is it possible for an input resistor to be on the way out overloading the power tubes for a time and getting better, miraculously changing. Really. I did nothing, and after months of 6N1P distortion, it is gone....at least today.

So finally Lon I am exploring your favorite input tube.

BTW, which Cryo one is your fav? I have two. One in a funny little box without ends marked 6H1-NB and a label stuck on....CS Super Cryogenic Treatment. These tubes have OTK near the bottom of the glass. The other is labeled Anod 6N1P-EV Cryo 6922 E88CC 6DJ8. Both are from Ron at Cryoset.

I am listening to the Super Cryos now and they are big and fun so far.

Thanks for the good wishes, amp and body wise (hernia repair, well on the mend it seems). I am using the super cryo ones with OTK near the bottom of the glass followed by a sideways diamond that looks like it has a sideways 7, but it may be a 2. I did not like it with the 6CA7s, but with the Cryo'd tungsols, so far they are very listenable, even new, so I look forward to them burning in. I recall when I first started getting tubes fro Ron he found the russian made ones to take inordinate amounts of time to burn in and this has proven true for me. But right now Chet Baker and Paul Bley are sounding pretty damned sweet!

I would really like to know what changed to sort this distortion thing! And only with the 6N1Ps no less! Maybe I need to get one of those tube socket cleaner sets.

I think you will like the bass knobs! Can't vouch entirely for the Tungsols at the moment as I just tried one record and it was better. Also using some warmish Ratheon 5U4GBs, and some warmish tungsol OB3s. So the edge of the tungsol EL34 is calmed a touch. A tube I think you may like though is the Cryo'd Ruby EL34 fat boys. If I recall correctly, they have a lot of the midrange and higher characteristics similar to Winged Cs, but a tighter Bass more in line with JJ6CA7s. I will do some careful, direct testing and let you know how they sound here anyway. They are cheap too.

I had no choice on the hernia. It was sticking out above the pubic bone like half a hand ball, and had to be held in with a support thingy. Nice to have it taken care of!

I will look into the Ruby sound again, but I distinctly thought of your love of the Winged C last I compared them together and how they might just fit your tastes. Will let you know.

Well, I have played around with voltage regulators and the Tungsols and though I got a nice drier than usual sound I found myself missing the JJs a lot and just went back to those. Once the JJs are broken in there's a very appealing openness to the sound and a warm smoothness that is quite nice for less than stellar recordings. and I'm now listening to a very stark dry recording of four saxophones alone (World Saxophone Quartet "Steppin'" on Black Saint) that sounded rather un-involving wth the Tungsols and sounds really intriguing with the JJs. So the JJs are in for a while. I'll need to put the Winged Cs in again soon to reconnect with that sound, but I must say I slowly warmed up to the sound of the JJs and am pretty acclimated to them now.

I'm drinking in the sound. . . I may be facing a period of time again where I don't have as much time with my stereo (darned working world) and so I'm savoring this as I can.

As for the bass knobs, I'm hoping I don't have to send the Torii in for a few months, as I want to do the PS Audio PWD upgrade first in the financial and "down time" schedule. Maybe next month sometime. We'll see.

No idea. It's not really the cost so much as the down time and the fact that I've been thinking of the PS Audio upgrade longer. I'd like to get that under my belt first, and get a grip on that, and then have the Torii updated.

We'll see. . . I'm a river, I shift from day to day and prefer it that way.

I've also considered the cryo'd JJs and agree, the darned burn in time! In my case I could put them in my Mk II and use them for a time and get past the burn in. Another thing for the list.

Lon, I don't know the difference between the Cryo Ruby EL34BSTR and the BHTs. I got the STRs on Ron's recommendation.

I just did some testing: Winged C, JJ6CA7, and the cryo Ruby STRs. It was very interesting. I wanted as transparent a background as I could get so that the SuperCryo 6N1Ps and the power tubes would really show being less influenced but the other tubes. This was some Early 80s Sylvania OA3STs (unusually open and transparent STs... very transparent, but without the edginess of the tall bottle russian OA3s I have), my most transparent very tall bottle RCA 5U4GB (with no bottom mica), and RCA OC2s. If anything this would be a slightly brutally open background set.

The Winged C were as usual for me, warm in a slightly darkish way, but redeemed by the slight emphasis in the mid/upper mids. At the same time, I always find them a bit off balance, with this upper mid clarity, but somewhat diminished definition down in the lower mids and bass. Interestingly, the 6N1Ps made these warmer than I am accustomed to....the balance of the two tubes together have a softening and warm synergy that I can imagine fits your objective of good presentation for less than stellar recordings, I think because both tend to have a slightly rich and darkish overall presentations with a an accented mid clarity that brings out necessary textures and nuances.

Next I put in the JJs. Still warm, but more inner and micro detail throughout the spectrum, more spacious, and a very good balance to me. But also slightly veiled with slightly wound down dynamics. Very nice and musical though and I like them  a lot once I settle into their sound. Forgiving without a particular sense of obvious veiled warmth.

Then the cryo Ruby STR. One more step toward increased micro and inner detail bringing out more textures and nuance, more spacious, no sense of restriction....more dynamic, and also good balance bottom to top. Still they have warmth, but of a different character with the inner detail and textures, and they have some of that seductive tubey sound the JJs have too that I might describe as sort of an inner ambience if you know what I mean. I like that quality.

I would say with this tube set and the amp settings I am using, the Ruby is like a more refined little brother to the JJ. Similar fundamental characteristics, but less restricted and less dark than the JJ. More sense of the players in the room for me. And with this tube set, a very bright and open input tube could hurt, but with the super 6N1Ps richness, I am not hearing painful stuff. So with warmer Rectifiers, and VRs they just may be a safe bet for you if you ever get the urge for more power tube exploration. Hard to say.

An interesting thing is that the JJs shortcomings always disappear for me as I grow used to them, so I like them. But the Rubies might spend more time in my amp. I like the choices, but not having the Rubies and having solely the JJs would not be a bad place to be with all the other tubes I can mix and match with!

As I listen to tubes more like I understand yours to be, I suspect that our tube tastes are probably quite similar. I mean, this 6N1P is a pretty tight little tube with lots of detail, and at least so far, the mids can get a bit edgy, but the true warmth they have softens things nicely without veils. I suspect that slight edginess will improve, but at this point my favorite inputs (at least with a good synergistic adjunct tubes) I would not necessarily call harder or edgier than these. Perhaps more revealing, but not less musical, and definitely bringing out a more intimate "Player in the room" feel. I don't dislike the slight separation the 6N1P brings to he presentations though. The smoothness of the music is very friendly. It is sort of like being further back from the band.

But my 6N1PS  only 20 or 30 hours in! And I like the presentation very much. It is pleasant and forgiving and I can imagine as they open it will all get better!!!

So thanks for the tip.

Lon, I believe I get that super cryo 6N1P anchor thing now for your needs. Makes total sense. It is a surprisingly softening and darkening tube without veils or significantly apparent detail loss, and powerfully influences any power tube it is with. Pretty cool.

I really can't say if the Rubys would suit you or not, but with the right counterparts, I suspect you would like them. They do go deep into micro detail, but to me in a very good and sweet way as long as the other tubes are not too bright.

This is fun!