Hi! I thought I would ask proud owners of the Mini Torii how you go about the power status of your amp during iddle time.  Do you keep it on stand by? Off? On?  How long before you start listening again do you power it on?

I checked the owner's manual on line but there's not a straight answer to this question.  If I've missed an existing thread discussing this very topic I apologize.

Thanks for your support.

Thanks, ZIGY.  I ask because I just remembered with my VTL 225 Deluxe monoblocks I had to turn them on about an hour before being able to start listening, as by then they were warm enough for their best amplification.  As I recall, they also had a standby state switch which was on all the iddle time (kept the circuits ready for operation and prevented humidity problems).

Also, I could not leave them powered on indefinitely because the heat was significant (too many EL34 tubes, in a 225 W/c Push-Pull arrangement).  It is understandable that a low power unit like the Mini would not create heating or energy-wasting problems.

Take care now ...

I am told it takes 20 minutes for the MINI TORII to sound its best, but I don't notice. Mine sounds great to me right after the tubes light up.

It's good to hear, Rivieraranch, thanks.  One less issue to consider!  

May I ask you, what do you think would be better for classical orchestral music (i.e., symphonies, concerts, etc.), as well as classic 50's & 60's jazz listening preferences, a SEP like the Mini or a SET like the SE34i.3?

By what I've been able to gather so far, conceptually, the Mini should get the upper hand in said musical scenarios (bass and slam), whereas the integrated (SET) would excell in more acoustical jazz and classical chamber music, for example (more detail at mid to high ranges).

It's similar to opposing spectra from an equalizer.  I know Steve's design on the Mini has managed to get sort of the best out of both worlds, or at least that's what transpires from the literature in the site.  But with the advent of the revised SE34i.3, I wonder.

Just your opinion, please.  Even if you have not had the SE34i ever, I'm sure you have already conceived an idea about those two topologies in general, from the point of view of a Decware user (Mini and other).

I'm sorry if I'm imposing on you, but I need to know this before I try to swap my Mini order (pending for delivery) for a SE34i.3 order (if Steve suggests, of course).  And I thought my decisions were all covered ... Ha!

Take care now, thanks ...

It seems that the news of the updated SE34I.3 has rekindled the lust for one. But you were chasing specs in the beginning, perhaps.

I believe that since then, you have thought it out thoroughly. The SET design has its allure with its unique reproduction of simple music, while the SEP handles more complex music better.  If I were in your position, I would still tilt towards the MINI.

I have a ZEN amplifier, which when paired with the TRAPEZIUM speakers really shines. However, the ZEN can occasionally run out of steam. But not in my office setup. The demand for volume is not there in that setting.

My MINI TORII at home has never run out of steam on anything. Not on my Bernard Hermann soundtracks, not on "Carmen" or RCA Living Stereo classical discs. I find you have to hold the volume down because it can get too loud. Even at lower volumes the detail is still there.

Don't forget the advantages of tube regulation. The MINI has it, but the new SE34I.3 will not - unless something changes. The tube regulation cleans up the power and enhances the sonic capabilities.

You can speak to DECKERT about this again and you should; but I suspect that his advice for the MINI will remain the same; it is too good.

Hi guys, thanks so much for your kind assistance.  

I reckon both of you have brought to the table very valid arguments.  Rivieraranch reflects it's appreciation for the dynamic/bass characteristics of the Mini, whereas Lon remembers the special, typical Triode sound on the Integrated.

IMHO, the power issue is not an argument anymore, though, as the Integrated has 5.8 W/c at 4 Ohms.  Granted, not being powered by beam tubes it may not behave as dynamically as the Mini, regardless of the absolute power.

So there we have it, the eternal dichotomy: The unique sound of a SET vs the dynamics of a SEP.  The problem compounds itself if you factor in my delight for both types of music, for the same reasons.  Nothing like a well played cello piece and nothing with the martial force of Beethoven's symphonies.  Different styles, both amazingly thrilling!

I guess the point brought by Rivieraranch may be crucial:  Power regulation stages.  I'm in no position to invest in a PS Audio regeneration plant, so an isolation transformer will have to do.  Therefore, voltage regulation in series (working as as a filter, in Steve's Mini design) may make an important difference.

I suspect this is the way Steve is thinking about it, as he stressed that out to me when we talked over the phone last time.  Evidently, with a PS Audio plant (for the Integrated), both amps are at the same sonic levels due to the Lucid Mode, but that is a condition I won't be able to meet anytime soon (I'd rather get the Torii MK III for that kind of money).

So, I'm going in a circle and getting back to my senses again, I guess.  I really appreciate your ideas, as these have proven invaluable to help me get the overview back again.  I apologize for the bother.  Take good care now ...

Oh, I agree it may be the case.  The point I'm making, though, is that dirty power from the mains really affects the sound, imparting grainy textures, as this was indeed stressed by Steve last time.  He said literally: Without a PS Audio Plant I would not recommend the SE34i.2 these days.

Nothing has changed with the Integrated in this sense, as no voltage regulation mods have been listed in Steve's description of the new amp.  So I had forgotten this point which I feel is crucial in my case.

Your point is well taken, though.  I'm sure the Integrated coupled with the PS Audio would make one hell of an amp.  Thanks, Lon.

I've also asked Sarah by eMail, as a favor, to ask Steve to reconsider his original suggestion and confirm it, or else to suggest the new amp.  I'm waiting for her reply.  Thanks for your interest, Lon.  I really appreciate it.

Alright, thanks. I don't quite get the now sudden "necessity" of a power regeneration item with any amp, this is unprecedented talk from Steve, not at all what he's been saying here in the forum. And as I say, all the amps benefit from one, but in my experience the difference with the power regulation onboard in the amp is not that significant that the benefits of power regulation are less pronounced, etc. It would be great if Steve had some sort of new thinking along these lines to spell it out, but I'd understand if he didn't. And as with everything with audio of this quality there are so many variables, e.g. I use some amazing power cords on my amps that may ben doing power filtering of their own etc. The head dizzies trying to consider all possibilities.

It's just that I think the Integrated is an amazing amp, I miss mine, and it was my amp in use when I was beginning to really be seduced by classical music. . . so I think it's a good mate for that genre. So I'm speaking out of passion for that amp. I think the new one will be really great! In time I might replace the Torii Mk II in my bedroom system with one, if my econcomic world improves.

Note: I said Torii Mk II. Which is NOT the Mk III, not the current "pinnacle."* In my second system, a bedroom system, I don't anticipate ever needing the power that I do for the living-room/dining-room system, and so I can entertain the Integrated as an option. I'm not replacing "the pinnacle" in my main system, but the Mk II (one less power regulation stage, no bias adjustment and a few other differences) that was once a Mk I but upgraded by Steve. Big difference than wanting to replace the Mk III in my main system. Don't see that happening.

Also, I object to "Triode character dynamics and power" or at least what I think you infer or understand by that. Power limitations, okay, but within usable power ranges dynamics are not compromised in my experience with the Integrated. So that if you don't need the extra power, dynamics are not some sort of issue.  One other thing to consider: Steve's SETs are not "typical" in sound or design to other SET amps. And iirc, the Integrated .2 is wired in what Steve calls "pseudo-triode," not the usual way to wire an EL34 etc . in triode mode. A move towards pentode elements in the configuration.

Also my "triode memory" isn't old or stale. I listened to my Decware SE34 Monoblocks last week, just to be sure that they were all they should be before they went on their way to their new owner, Jim (thanks Jim!). And they were in my second system for a considerable part of last year, as was my Integrated before I sent it off to a new owner. Yes, on top of years of listening memory to four different Decware SET amps--and I've spent a lot more time with the SETs than the Toriis overall) there's recent, fresh memory and experience.

Anyway, other than to clarify a misrepresentation, I'll step back as I've said enough. Best of luck in your decision, at least when you hear from Steve you'll make an informed one.

* Some may say the "pinnacle" is the Zen Monoblocks!

Cool. Feeling a little passionate about Decware today, sorry. Going for a ride before the next rainstorm. Peace and have a good one.

Thanks Bob. I knew that just somehow this morning that didn't come out right.

Who said they did nothing? But I think it's a mistake to make its absence in any of the amps to be a reason to automatically not consider that amp.

Also, I have two amps that use them, and power conditioning still improves the sound of both. So it's not as if they're the ultimate and nothing further could improve.  . . .

I wonder if there's somebody from the forum with the skills to give us a brief on what these specs all mean.

I'm referring to the built-in tube voltage regulation, which I basically understand from Steve's explanation-definition, but not as it relates to the isolation transformer and to the eventual addition of a PS Audio (example) device.  I'm not calling it a power conditioner because unfortunately there has been plenty of abuse on this concept by less scrupulous merchants.)

I also would like to understand the essence about the Lucid Mode concept, beyond what's in the site.  I think it's an interesting concept but cannot interpret those diagrams yet.

I think Lon is right in ignoring the traditional Triode/Pentode norm when discussing Decware amp designs.  Like in everything else, there are tradeoffs involved and Steve seems to have the talent to choose the right combination.  

So his Triodes and Pentodes are not typical somehow, their respective designs gradually more oriented to a more common middle ground maybe, coming from those three extremes (3rd being the Push-Pull topography).  I think Steve is looking for THE optimal amp design, where all these biased tradeoffs converge into a unique family of optimal design parameters (not in conformance with any std norm).

This makes it harder to understand the on-going developments, choices.  Granted, we are supposed to enjoy the benefits from these designs, no need to discuss or analyse them, but I can't help trying to understand the big picture and those tradeoffs.

I guess it's just my nature and the fact that I'm enjoying a lot of free time lately.  I've been reading some general vacuum tube design literature, but it gets too technical for a non electrically trained person, and frankly I rather have the layman's version.

You know what?  I think the Decfest should include some kind of seminar to explain the big picture on Decware amps, from a technical point of view.  Don't you guys think?  I'm sorry for the extension of this probably very very boring message ...  I won't post for a while, ok?

Jim, yes, it's really interesting to me how they're each very versatile, but they each have a distinctive character. They're like different species, but each with over-lapping common features.

The wonderful and yet frustrating thing about them is they each allow you certain choices. The line has really blossomed with exciting options. Ultimately you have to provide any of them great power and the best possible source you can get your hands on. And outside of that the real heart of the matter, the real deciding factor is: what speaker are you going to use with them. I really think that rules the roost. Some of us fall in love with speakers in our rooms and one of these amps may work better than another with those speakers. And it's possible that more than one will, and then it's really hard to determine which one to choose. Barring an unusually difficult speaker to drive, almost anyone can find the right amp for their speaker, armed with enough dollars and with some real advice. The real advice comes from this forum, though the real resource is one of the reasons this forum is a bit different and interesting: we have Steve to call and to appear and give us direction.

FB, good points, and I think it's an organic evolving "thing" this Decware experience. Builder and listener learning, it's not all quite nailed down yet, but unfolding. Your questions and answers have been a positive part of the whole. We're all in this together.

Bob, I managed to get out of the city and onto the road just a little bit, and back again before the rain hit. The roads weren't too bad and neither was the traffic. I've a new jacket this season, for the first time a real traditional motorcycle jacket, and today was the perfect day to wear it comfortably. We're due to get really cold soon, so I'm squeezing in little forays while I can.