What the hey!!

I'll chime in on this one.

The Decware amps were the Amps that others were judged by on sound quality!  They ruled the fest of the South!!  Gritfest, thats right, no cream of wheat here, was rocked on more than one occassion by the mighty lil Decware amps.  Our amps were followed by an Eddie Vaughn Carina and  Joels integrated. John had brought a homebrew, what I called the cool Satchel amp.  Then bringing up the tail end was the transcendant.  Yes, it had tubes galore, it worked flawlessly as a night light for people coming in and out of the room.  

Perhaps the Transcendant could be used as a Septic cleaner?

MikeW wrote on 05/16/07 at 20:23:51:


Howdy Mike,

While it's true that our Selects are "slightly modified", I had the privilege of hearing a stone stock Select in my system during paulc's recent visit.  The stock Select put on a great performance and held its head high .....  8-)

For purposes of clarification, the amplifier I was comparing to the Select was not the Carina.

The Carina is also a fine sounding amplifier.  The contrast between the Carina and the Select / CSP2 combo is interesting ..... with not a runt in the litter.

Best wishes,

Randy

You know what? I'm not even considering other equipment.  With the CSP2, the ZBox, the DEC 685 and the EL34 Monoblocks and the RL2s I have a Decware system that brings me enjoyment every day.

Yeah, I'll consider another Decware product. . . why not?  And I'll eventually have my Monoblocks modified by Steve.  But. . . I'm not tempted by any other brands.

There is something special about the Select - and I might add - Parker, combo. For me, it's the emotion they empart (The Last Samurai soundtrack with Japanese koto drums sounds absolutely scary through this system). I've never experienced this before. That being said, I wish I had a wee bit more power  :'(

buzz wrote on 05/16/07 at 23:37:34:


Who is Bruce? Are you talkign about Transcendent Audio, the ones that use like 37 tubes? Play music and heat your home all at once – LOL!!  :-X

Eli Duttman wrote on 05/17/07 at 03:57:42:



Eli,

What is the circuit toplogy of the FETs, class AB?

TG  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

opnly_bafld wrote on 05/17/07 at 04:17:31:



Monarchy Audio's sites says this:

"The current-output stage is totally transparent, so if there are any sonic characteristics  observable on (not my typo but theirs) this amp, it would be attributable to the tube’s own sonics."

Although I think their amps more than likely sound very good I don't buy that kind of sales talk, at least knowing what I know about electronics.  Everything has its sonic characteristics, however small it may be, NOTHING is totally transparent, at least not yet.

TG  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

Randy in Caintuck wrote on 05/17/07 at 05:01:42:


Ahh, yes... I agree. However, all these amps approach the level of fidelity that the source becomes the weak link. Also, the Transcendents' use of feedback will give a better bottom end (and initial appeal) but sacrifices so much. People today are stuck with a poor medium (CD). A "lot of money" must be spent to find a CD source that can find the 'midrange magic'.

I imagine, most of these converts are using CD as their source, and have never expirienced what vinyl or ultra high end digital source listeners take for granted. Sadly, they are simply trying to make the most of the (flawed) medium they listen to, which happens to sound best in the lower octaves. More joy may have been found keeping the SE84 and investing in better source equipment.

Quote:


I agree........Both are SET amps but it almost seems the similarities stop there. I like both of them.

A $1000 +/- TT setup doesn’t come close to my Arcam CDP in terms of midrange magic – actually it doesn’t come close in any regard! It’s MUCH better. I’d have to drop $500+ on a cart and $2000+ on a table to match the Arcam or any Meridian for that matter.
THEN, you need to drop another $500 to $1000 on a vinyl cleaning solution and more on storage.

Forgetaboutit!


I believe most audio guys try a few midfi CDP’s and even a couple of higher end Sonys or Denons and come to the opinion that CDP’s cant’ rival even a modest vinyl rig. And that may be so with consumer brand audio - at any price level. Ever hear a $3000 Denon? They’re good but not THAT good. Ever hear a $600 Jolida with some choice tubes? Its better then the $3000 Denon in terms of musicality and magic.
Point is, its relatively easy to get a great sounding CDP if you just look past the brand names and overly popular midfi brands.

I’ve tried time and time to get back into vinyl and I just don’t see the point.


Bill Maher, New Rule:
“Stop telling me that vinyl records sound warmer than CDs. I was alive in the '70s, you dip-shit hipsters. I know what vinyl sounds like. Scratchy! And when your friend throws you the bong and it hits the tone arm, your Foghat record is ruined, man! Plus, when you've got a chick over and you're getting your groove on, every 20 minutes, you've got get up out of the beanbag chair and flip over the Ray Stevens album.”

Personally, I  LOVE  vinyl. My  friend  in NYC's  set-up is to  die  for. Of  course, it  also is about $12K in gear  :o

I  abandoned my  LP rig  several years  ago.
a) Cost  of  ownership
b) Lack of  quality/pristene  recordings
c) Flexibility of playback (i.e. skipping tracks, random  play, etc) plus  playing in my  car - discman, etc.
d) Ease  of  use/maintenance
e)  FUD factor - I  don't  worry  about  kids, pets, dust,  and  other elements  so  much  with CDs.
f) pure enjoyment  factor


The  last meaning I was  constantly obcessing over  the  sound  of  my LP  rig.
I  would  A/B  like  recordings  of CD  and LP  - and  the  vinly,  when a  good  shape  recording, WAS/IS  superior.

However,  for  me  it  is  that "law of  diminishing  returns"  rule. When  you add up  all the  factors, to  me  it  simply was not  worth it.


I  have  a  hot-modded  Shanling  CD T-100  tube  output  CD player. I  have  owned the  Musical Fidelity AC3,  Meridian 801,  Marantz 63SE  - all  very  good  players  and  all  "analog  enough" for  my tastes  not  to deal  with  the  vinyl rig.

I have owned the Wright 3.5 2a3 monos, Decware Select monos. I currently own Electraprint 300B monos, and my current rig for a while now has Cary 805C SET monoblocks. I am very happy with my Cary SLP98P preamp and 805C monoblocks. A very good friend practically gave them to me or I would not have spent the money that they would have cost. I do remember though its been a while one of my favorite setups was my Decware ZTPRE with my Select monoblocks and my Klipschorns. Hard to beat for the money.
I have noticed the vinyl issue come up as well. I have never had a better sounding setup than my current one with features the VPI TNT 3.5 table as the centerpiece. It makes it a no brainer for me since I have over 8000 records. I have a long long long list of great records that I have upgraded and weeded out over the years. Some Mercury Living Presence or Living Stereo lp's are 50 years old and sound amazing.  It is more of a hassle to clean and such but for me thats part of it all....kind of a ritual when I find a near mint 50 year old lp for a dollar and clean it up and sit in front of the tubes and I am blown away.

Interesting thread.  

As usual I feel obligated to chime in about vinyl vs CD… a phrase that osculates in the most literal sense.  It’s a very black and white phrase that with a bit of irony depicts only shades of grey.  Nevertheless: It’s not so much about “getting it” with regards to vinyl as it is about hearing it “when it is set up right.”

When I am developing an amplifier I only use CD because of the consistency.  Also because most people listen only to CD and because as pointed out, CD’s do several things better then vinyl.  The reason I don’t use vinyl during amplifier development is because it’s too easy to accidentally mess something up with the tone arm, cartridge and table.  The only way to be certain what you are hearing is honest or at the full potential of your rig would be to do a serious pre flight check which can takes hours.

Having the cartridge force of by a ½ gram will destroy the magic of vinyl.  (As a friend of mine recently found out in the nick of time before selling an amp that was actually better then his own)  

The distance between the needle and the pivot point of the tone arm has to be perfect otherwise it will destroy the magic of vinyl.

The angles of the cartridge of which there are three, must be perfect otherwise it will destroy the magic of vinyl.

And the theme goes on – the height of the tone arm controlling the angle of the arm must be perfect and should be adjusted for each thickness of record you play.

On cheaper tables that use platter mats, the type of mat used can make or break the magic, it has to be the right mat.

The choice of cartridge design and proper matching it to the right tone arm , ie, high mass, low mass, uni-pivot etc., will make or break the magic.  You can spend 6 grand on a tone arm and cartridge that don’t like each other and get better sound from a 600 dollar equivalent that is properly and synergistically matched.

The anti-skate force must be perfect, and the table must be level or the magic in vinyl will go away.

It goes on from there…  

Then when you get it all perfect, you may and typically do get stuck with mediocre results that in my opinion destroy the magic of vinyl. (Due to other handicaps down stream)

To me the magic of vinyl is what it does that CD’s can not.  Comparing the very best with the very best.

People who spend 10 grand  (not excluding those who spend far less) learn how to set all these variables up, and learn how to hear what each variable does to the sound when it’s off in either direction.  They generally have a fascination for mechanical things and an appreciation for beauty in motion.  These people are unanimous in the knowledge of what vinyl does that CD can not.

FOR THE REASONS states above it is very few vinyl rigs that are set up properly to their full potential.  Many are so handicapped that they really tip the scale heavily in the Vinyl vs. CD argument to digital.

The phono stage is probably as important if not more, then all of the above.  This is assuming that you haven’t handicapped the phono stage with an inferior preamp, or amplifier, or both.

This IMO is why there even is an argument about which sounds better.    When I have completed the development of an amplifier and it’s been in service for a healthy period of time, then I find out how good it really is by going through a pre-flight ritual on my vinyl rig and listening to records.  

Regrettably this whole hi-end vinyl thing is not practical.  You have to almost be a skilled watch maker type of guy to get it absolutely right.  Tape was a much better alternative for mass enthusiasts and CD was a natural alternative to that - offering too many advantages to ignore.  It is technically superior and inferior at the same time, and so is vinyl.

Once you spend some real money on digital it gets pretty easy to happily enjoy CD’s right along with Vinyl or even instead of vinyl.  

A big reason I come off as a vinyl advocate is because a cheap and or expensive but poor sounding CD player is no comparison to a properly set up mid-fi turntable, and for sincere broke audiophiles who lust to hear how good an SET amp can sound, it’s a less expensive way to find out.

The goal of all of us should be to focus on improving digital both in sound and in value so that eventually everyone can take the digital side of the argument with no substantial opposition.  I mean even I listen to digital 90 percent of the time since I have music on all day every day in the shop.  I want it to sound as good as possible.


Steve

Steve,

Very good points on the vinyl setup process. I was almost ready to sell my TNT. I finally got it it sing like no other table,arm,cart combo, and when I put the step up you built me in the chain it has done nothing but got better with time. It was a simple trial of tracking weight and VTA which was very cruical for my combo.

Charlie

Check out Altmann's DIY TT...with Harley Davidson inlet valve & valve guide as TT main bearing!!  

http://www.altmann.haan.de/turntable/

Bo wrote on 05/20/07 at 02:39:14:


Now thats a WORK OF ART!!!  I am almost inspired to make a TT like that just to see what it can do.

Back in the day when all we had was vinyl, my buddies and I had bought all these special set up tools, and would spend hours setting up our TT's, it was painstaking, but for the sake of the music and the longevity of our LP's we would do it.  To this day I have LP's that are over 30 years old, that still sound wonderful.  We also use to make recordings of our LP's so we didn't have to wear out our LP's.  We use to take our LP's to a local hi-fi shop to get them cleaned once a year, use antistatic sprays, special coating treatments when you first got them, Disc3 (If I recall correctly) disc cleaners were the latest greatest thing, I had the one with the cleaner in the handle.  It was a something we put a LOT into, and when CD's came out, the idea of far less hassle was a major draw.  Looking back on it that was a large part of what being an audiophile was all about, almost a lost art when it comes to setting up a TT.

TG  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

davedutill wrote on 05/16/07 at 19:08:31:


I apologize to coming late to this thread but as an owner of both a Decware Taboo and a Transcendent GG preamp I felt I needed to add my 1 cent. I was not in attendance at the venue in which the comparison took place so I cannot speak to which completed rig is better. What I can say is that I recently put together the GG (my first kit) and it has improved the sound of the stand alone Taboo.

I know that everyone will say that had I used a Decware preamp it would sound even better maybe so, but the fact that it improved the sound at all is a testament to the quality of the Transcendent gear. To launch attacks against it because of a particular preference is wrong. We all have preferences and there is no scientific way of measuring "good sound".

I have no problem with someone saying " the gear sounded too analytical or bright" but a space heater and a septic tank? C'mon guys we are all better than that.

"Space heater, Night light, Septic cleaner". Forgive me but that sounds anything but praise for Transcendent's sound quality. Again I have NO problem with peoples preferences. If you don't like the gear that's fine. My issue is that it would be more constructive and yes helpful if the comments were kept to specifics such as better imaging, better low end, more detail etc. This would allow folks  who may be pondering a switch, but haven't had the benefit of listening to both side by side to make an informed decision.

davedutill wrote on 05/16/07 at 19:08:31:


Then your comment Bo, meant in jest of course. "Who is Bruce? Are you talkign about Transcendent Audio, the ones that use like 37 tubes? Play music and heat your home all at once – LOL!! "

There. helpful enough? I am not an apologist for Transcendent Audio, I'm sure Bruce can take care of himself. I again reiterate that bashing anyones gear is not helpful. Citing specific weaknesses (perceived or otherwise) IS helpful but the ultimate arbiter should be your own ears.Now frankly I'm tired of playing this game and believe I've made my position quite clear.

When people are joking..wel euh they're joking...Even the good can be ridiculed

Now that you asked for it  144..i'm shure some people (those who actually compared)  will give you a good comparison if you insist ; like differences in soundstaging etc etc.

This forum is extremely helpfull about many other products and off course dec stuff , and Steve is pretty easy on 'the other brand' discussion

Thanx Robert for the helpful information. I agree  Decware gear is hard to beat in terms of value.  It looks like for now I'm keeping my Taboo!

musgofasa wrote on 05/25/07 at 17:37:23:


Howdy Robert,

Your choice of words is more than adequate .....  :)

The comparison that I really wanted to hear (and didn't) was the Decware CSP2 vs the Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp mated with my Decware Select power amp.  Maybe another time.

Based on what I heard when played with the same speakers, I agree with your thoughts that the Decware gear was warmer and more musical.  I also thought they had more bloom and a more "liquid" sound.  Some might interpret this to mean that the Decware gear sounds more like "classic tube equipment" ..... and nothing could be further from the truth.  Most classic tube amplifiers sound muddy, slow and vague compared to Decware amplifiers, IMHO.

Again, not to say that the Transcendent gear was bad ..... but I was expecting to be bowled over based on the comments of a few folks who own gear from both companies, and it just didn't happen.  As I previously stated, those folks probably did not have the benefit of hearing the Decware amplifier with V-Caps installed and a CSP2.  They might very well have come to a different conclusion if that was the case.  

Oh well ..... different strokes and all that.  Just to show you how tastes vary between listeners, I much prefer the Decware SV83 / EL84 amps to the integrated.  Two totally different sounds for sure.  It all boils down to personal taste .....  8-)

It was good to meet you.  Hope to see you at the next DecFest.

Randy

Randy in Caintuck wrote on 05/25/07 at 21:46:18:


I feel exactly the same, I like the Select much better than any tube amp I have ever heard, it is a type of sound that no other tube has been able to produce to my ears.   I personally think it is the tube the SV83/EL84, this is why when Steve announced he was making a integrated amplifier I was hoping it was going to be SV83 based, and when he announced he was planning a push pull I was hoping it was going to be SV83 based.  Well of course he went with EL34's instead.

For some reason in audio, the EL84 is overlooked a lot, how many SET, and SEP EL84 amps are on the market?  I haven't seen but a handful, but there are plenty of 2A3's, EL34's, 45's, 300B's, and many other ones.

TG  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

Funny thing is the Integrated that I liked so much had KT77 (or maybe they were KT88s?) tubes in it. I assume the construction is the same and therefore the EL34 "Base" is still there.

I have thought a lot about what we listened to that night and I have to admit I only got a few minutes to here the integrated. I stepped out to watch the TV for a little while and when I came back the Carina had been hooked up. I have to admit that amp sounded as sweet as anything I have ever heard.

I wonder if variety is as important as definitive components. When one finds a good sounding amp and a good sounding speaker, it is then to work on the room and the interconnects, power cables, placement, etc. And even after all that I would bet that tube rolling would still reveal certain things with each combination. I think when I am settled and have my amp placed, I am likely to be a constant roller of tubes simply to listen to something a little different for a while. I am also likely to build a new speaker every couple of weeks. That is just my nature. Sometimes I wish I could decide that one was the "best" and just listen to it and enjoy the music, but I am the person who enjoys hearing "different" as much as "better".

Something to think on

Take care,
Robert