Ok, so here's the consensus;

Most of us like the Daytons. OK, now....

How about this,  the Dayton 15" series II for $88 from Parts Express (quantity 2). And then do I buy (1) BASH 500 watt plate amp from PE for $228, or for versatility do I get (2) 250 watt amps for slightly more??

Thanks for entertaining a newbee  

Bob

Currently $144, and $209 respectively.  Would like to wait till the "sale". But unknown how long that may be. At MCMinone.com, they only show 2 in stock of the 350W amp  :'(.  Still eying the Parts Express plate amps though??

Havn't heard of BEHRINGER. Will search.

Bob

Good thinking about plate amp destruction.
Will peek at Ebay, but slightly worried about USED. ie..blown amps.

Bob

I agree with 60. My plates amps do not sit close to anything that can be vibrated by the HWK15. BEHRINGER is used mostly for pro-audio and DJ equipment. They could be adapt to work HWK15 with the right crossovers and equalizer. Parts Express has the best deal or price as of now but that is still $128 for 250w plate amp. Rythmik Audio also has a plate amp that looks like the Parts Express amp. If you play the 250w amp at moderate to loud volumes with the HWK15(loaded with two DAYTONS) you will need a cooling fan. I notice the BASH amp is located at O Audio web site and it look very interesting but to get to 500w means alot distortion(THD). The THD at 400w with the BASH seems much better power rating vs the 500w rating. Let me know what you find and the kind of budget you can afford.

For amps you might want to check out www.zZounds.com

I picked up a b-stock ep2500 for $200. Works great just had rack rash on it. I use it to run my Imperial. You check under the blowouts section of there website under Live Sound/PA they have quite a few amps for sale there.

Good point about the power indicator Adrian D. I pick up a couple of Velleman mono led power meter kits from Parts Express(part#320-222). These things are cool and work perfect with a subwoofer plate amp. They do not need a power supply and just hook in parallel with mono output of the plate amp. I am unsure of how accurate they are but if your ohms are right I would say they are pretty close. You will be required to do some soldering and know basic electronics. The instructions are easy and if you go with different color leds you can tell the amount power being put out even in a low light room. If you look hard enough you can find them cheaper on the web. Adire Audio has some nice sub amps and you can locate them on the web. Hope this helps.

You guys are cool !

Some very good ideas there. Interesting though, most recommendations for amps are not what I would call traditional. Lots of "pro" stuff. I, at this point in my DIY speaker building life don't even know enough to be dangerous. I could see myself buying a plate amp, a couple Daytons, some MDF and making a big noisey box. But you folks talking about pa amps, DJ amps, and "non traditional" amps scare the  :o out of me. Not sure if I could wire it. I can solder very well, to answer HT-EXT, but wouldn't have a clue what to do with a HWK, and amp sitting in front of me if the instructions didn't say "install + to + and - to -". Am very willing to learn, have a decent automotive knowledge of wiring, but the advanced crossover / amp / driver wiring may be a cause of a future post or two.  To answer HT-EXT again, I'm looking to spend under $200 for the amp (and crossover if one is needed). The room is 98% for home theater use so looking for a certain amount of overall quality. It sounds like it's possible given the posts read, and dollar amount.

The RythmicAudio 250W amp looks very nice for $100, but will it run the 2 Daytons 15"? The P.E. 250W with remote looks cool for $139. May do a remote mount plate amp, say, in the equipment rack with a cooling fan. So it doesn't get it's brains scrambled.

The power indicator LED's are neat. I always get goosebumps looking at the pretty lights.

The Behringer is currently running $299.99 at zZounds.com. I found some amps in the blowout section, but don't have a clue as to what I'm looking at.

Is an amp an amp? As long as you can plug it into 120V?

May try a pawn shop or two in my area. Sounds like an item a guy could find there. But once again, I feel like a 14 year old little girl in the tool section of Home Depot.  ::)

Bob

I have found my crossovers on eBay. I have two DBX active crossovers. Got a steal on one that came with an amp (QSC USA 850), crossover (DBX 3-way crossover), eq (no name), and road case (SKB) for $100.

DUDE, your cool  ;D

Just buzzing through them the LSA-900 makes my tigglies wiggly.  I'll spend some time looking at these and get back to you.

Bob

p.s. thank you very much for spending so much time on little ol' me.

Do not worry about soldering unless you buy the Velleman power kits. PA and DJ amps are just heavy duty stereo amps(20Hz to 20KHz frequency range) that can take the punishment of traveling and put out KILLER power. With PA/DJ amps you will need a crossover and maybe an equalizer for the HWK15. Subwoofer plate amps(20Hz to 200Hz frequency range) are good because they have built in crossovers, phase, and gain(volume) controls. Everyone is different so you will have to decide what you like. I use a 250W plate amp to run one HWK15(2 DAYTON SERIES II) and can bury the SPL meter with out any worries of course not for long periods of time without  MR. FAN running. If you are looking for a excellent sub for home theater the WO36 is BADA--. Do not get me wrong I would not take anything for my HWK15s. The sound and SPL they put out are second to none. Remember the HWK is somewhat easier to build and the performance will out do most of the $1000 home theater subs. GOODLUCK!

With an Xmas of 8mm on the Series II, and an Xmas of 15mm on the DVC Series --these ---http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-190

I could afford 2 of the DVC's if I get the amp at $130.

Is this a better idea???

Bob

you dont have to worry too much, if you build the hw right and put ok drivers in it , its going to give you what you want.i personally use an old jvc amp ($30 at a thrift store 50 wpc?) via a nice x over, and 2 old school jbl 15s', that amp combined with my h.w. fill a a big L shaped room, a big room probably 6 or 700 sq feet floor plan with enough bass to seriously upset my wife, because the outside of the house is vibrateing and disturbing the neibours! on 50 wpc???? just make sure you build the housewrecker 'to plans' and you will get the insane low end this cab is desighned to do with 2 or 300 wrms, im a little afraid for you, you might be half way through a movie and some subsonic sound will be there, and it will litterally make you, and anyone else watching, jump out of your skin with fear! imagineing that a semi truck just crashed into your house, because thats what its going to sound, and feel like.

[quote author=60ndown  link=1137542099/15#22 date=1137675318]....... you might be half way through a movie and some subsonic sound will be there, and it will litterally make you, and anyone else watching, jump out of your skin with fear! imagineing that a semi truck just crashed into your house, because thats what its going to sound, and feel like. [/quote]

That is so true! You get good powerful sub sonics going and movies take on a different flavor. Wait til you hear explosions that come in waves, or race cars, or semis that actually shake the room well below hearing ability and it sounds real, instead of like some fluffy bass thing happening over in the corner.

I wouldn't be too concerned with a description on a demo/scratch and dent/showroom/customer return item if the seller is reputable, but usually "new in box" doesn't necessarily mean "factory sealed" anyway. If they use the term "new" I expect a warranty of some sort. "In box" is good, but "in original box" might be better prepared for shipping across the country, again warranty is the question I would want answered up front, before making a decision. No problem either way as long as you know what to expect in advance. At that price it would be difficult for them to offer a warranty on a product that is questionable.

DONE  :D

Dayton Series II's ordered !

Waiting for Music Supply Center to get back to me about why it's in the scratch and dent bin.

Sunday I'll be at Home Depot buying MDF.

Bob

Just noticed all of the replies you guys made while I was trying to reach my credit limit. Amazing. You've all been VERY helpful. Just about the time I think society is going in the toilet, I find poeple like you. Willing to help a total stranger (idiot) spending your time surfing the net to give me links and advise.

THANK YOU
Bob

DirtDawg, multiple repetative posts just means you really, really, really mean it !
Bob

The important thing is that it does what you need, and your happy with it.
Bob

Good luck with the build Bob. If you can take some pics thru the building process.

Again good luck. BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/30#33 date=1137682409]Thanks from a fellow stupid/drunk.

Just ordered the LSA900

My plan to take over the world is almost complete.

Bob
[/quote]

900 wrms and 2 x 15s in HWK...........crazy

Yes, I will take pictures. Little old school in the shutterbug area. Will have to have them developed, then scan them. Not sure how they will turn out.

Crazy,......me.........ok.

I have better sidekick than "The Brain"......I have you guys.

Will be waiting for the mail every day. I'll let you know what the LSA900 looks like when it comes. Hopefully hasn't been run over by a truck. Fellow that emailed me back assured me it was 'new' and perfectly fine. (Then why so cheap?)

I'll buy that..........pun intended.

Bob

Agreed.  The 150 Hz lowpass integral to the amp is not low enough for a clean subwoofer... granted, the HWK is a bandpass box, so much of that higher frequency content will be attenuated in the cabinet, but the woofers will still be producing it and hence wasting energy.  Unless your source has a sub out which is passed lower, you will need some sort of crossover to lowpass at about 80 Hz or so.  If you have the sub out, you're good to go, and (as far as I can tell from the photographs) need only use a splitter as J_Rock suggested.  If not, you need either:

1) An active crossover, which will filter frequencies prior to the amplifier, or

2) A passive crossover, which filters after amplification, and hence wastes power.  This is the cheaper option, so you might want to do this for now and then swap out to an active crossover later.

I would use balanced XLR inputs wherever you can, instead of RCA or 1/4" jacks (you will need appropriate cables), and Neutrik speakon connectors for the amp output and HW input connections.  No need to buy expensive pro audio cables - just buy the connectors and make your own.

-Sean

i connected my pa amp to the headphone out on my integrated amp, using a y-splitter so that i have 2 XLR jacks going in the x-over.
i am terribly sorry i didn't buy parts for the cables instead of buying the whole cable : 20$ for 2*1m xlr-jack cables and 2*1m xlr-xlr cables. i'm not sure if it would have been cheeper if i would have built my own.
i have my dbs crossed at about 65, because i hate how the db-10 boosts the 100-120hz section.

i just remembered...taxis in romania use XLR for powering the "advertisment" on the top. i laughed when i first saw that (2 days after i've bought my cables)

Okay - you have the sub out, so that saves you having to buy an extra crossover.  Incidentally, do you know what the low pass frequency of that output is?

Unless your amp has a summing input (where you can provide a signal to only one input channel but have both outputs driven), you will need to split this output into two separate channels, to feed each input channel of your amplifier.  The sub out on your receiver is a female RCA, and you need to split this into two male XLRs.  You may be able to find just such a cable, or use a cheap RCA Y adapter with two separate RCA to XLR single channel cables, or just buy the appropriate connectors and make what you need.

As for the amp to speaker connection, you could just wire this directly (I think your amp has binding posts for this purpose), but personally, I would shell out a few bucks for the Neutrik Speakon connectors - that is the other output jack you see on the back of the amp.  One cable connector for each end of the speaker cable, and one input connector/dish receptacle for the cabinet.  If it is a permanent home theater installation, it doesn't really matter, but the speakons give you a connection that is tolerant of many cycles of connection and disconnection (important if you move your gear around a lot), plus it looks cleaner (if that matters to you).  The Speakons are bulletproof, and will accept up to 12 GA wire with no soldering necessary.

-Sean

Don't know about Radio Shack specifically, but there are lots of sources for both types of connectors.  Just do a Google search.

-Sean

Here is a site that shows the pin out of wire for making the cables.

http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/connection/

One more thing - given the option between a balanced or unbalanced version of a given cable, you probably want to use the balanced version.  The discrepancy arises because RCA is inherently a single-ended connector (i.e. 2 conductors as opposed to XLR's 3).  The potential for the chassis grounds of source and amplifier to float with respect to each other can lead to amplifier hum, for example.

Balancing may not be important in Bob's home theater, but there are other pragmatic reasons for using the XLR connections - maybe more important for PA applications than for use in the home, but still worth mentioning:

1) the XLR engages all of its conductors at once, and can not short circuit the signal lines during connection / disconnection

2) the XLR is a positive locking connector

Just a thought - if the amp has both XLR and 1/4" phone plug inputs, could you achieve the split by using a single RCA to XLR from the receiver to one amp input, and then use a 1/4" phone plug jumper between the two input jacks on the amp?

cabbies in romania don't carry guns...or at least i haven't met any
come by anytime
the stuff about xlr and other types is really useful. thanks for the topic guys. i hope bob uses this info

Actually I purchaced the LSA900 here.... http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/100-01-0208?

But, I'm sure the inputs/outputs would be the same.

Bob

15" for sure. Total size of the box you'll stare at isn't a big difference. Driver price difference not much. Have you read the entire thread? I got the Dayton Series II's from parts express for $88 each. Think it might be pretty cool.

Bob

Bob, I have a 15" peavey black widow laying around and 3 JL 10W3s. That is why I have to decide. But as you said I am leaning toward the 15" and later buying some Dayton's.  

It sounds like confusion is all, the LSA 800 says it uses 900 watts worth of transitors. Perhaps this is the mistake.

Either way, The amp will work fine for those daytons.  

You could do either XLR or 1/4 inch, the only reason I suggested XLR is for the Postive locking.

Ok, I lied. I did taxes this week end, Forgot about those.   NEXT weekend I've got a 3 day weekend. Plenty of time to build A HWK. None of my new toys came yet.  >:(

Bob

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/60#65 date=1137795213]Here's what Music Supply Center calls it... http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/700-05-0006?

As far as the difference in connector / termination, I also like the idea of the XLR. The 1/4" reminds me of the 1/8" stereo plugs that you would here static until you rotate the plug... not what I need.

Bob [/quote]

I'm not quite sure where the notion came from that you will be immune to those problems simply by using an XLR connector. Pros using that amp may have to set it up in 4 or 5 different locations every week and put more wear and tear on every connection than you will at home.

There are many reasons to use an XLR, but the reasons stated for not using 1/4" is mainly encountered when using an amatuer grade connector. If your amp has high quality jacks and you buy pro quality plugs, you won't experience any static or degradation in the signal transfer. The shorting of the output can become a concern with certain tube outs, but generally you don't want to hot swap audio gear any way. Develope good habits from the beginning regarding your new amp.

Glad to see it coming together for you. Keep us posted!

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/60#69 date=1138194607]
When you say develop good habits with my amp, are you refering to hot swapping?

Bob [/quote]
Yep!
I watched as a friend once tried switching stuff around and before I could stop him, the speaker outs from 2 different amps touched [LIGHTNING] and it fried both his new amps. He was not practicing "Safety First" as they say.

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/60#71 date=1138198356]  :o  :o
Not a happy camper......
Thanks, that is a practice I should start.  I've been known to yank S-video, and component cables while equipment was on.  BAAAD!! Stop it....

Bob [/quote]
I don't know much about the mechanics of video, but I know many of the circuits are assembled in static free clean rooms because some of the chips used in that gear have microscopic conductors that are sensitive even to static electrical discharge that we couldn't feel. I'm sure the supporting circuitry helps to protect it to some degree, but I prefer not to temp or dare The Devil.

Quick question, in a dual driver HWK, I'm thinking about mounting the top driver face up (magnet down in center chamber). Do I set driver in hole from the top chamber, resting it on the back side of the driver flange with gasket. Or, do I install in center chamber FROM the center chamber, so the built in gasket is against the bottom of the top divider.

Or does it matter.

Reason is, ease if installation, holding the driver with one hand trying to install fasteners with other hand. Easier to just set it in hole.

Bob

Not a bad idea about the putty. In the automotive industry we use a material we call 'dum dum'. It's about 1/4" - 3/8" diameter 'rope' that comes in a roll. Black and gooey used to seal HVAC in cars. I think our parts department has some.   ???

I'm thinking I'll make one entire side removeable to ease in driver musical chairs. Will probably design some overbuilt PITA as a gasket. Thought about a 48" piano hinge to make almost a closet door type setup. You've seen the pins racecars have to hold the hoods on, that would be the latch. Would require extensive gasketing, almost like a refrigerator. Somehow keep gasket in place during use.  No, .... I won't call fridgedaire and ask the spl rating of the fridge gasket.  ::)

Bob

Yea, "Camper tape". much easier to work with.
Bob

Of course, Sean is right, but I was thinking we had gone past reality and were engaged in thought play at this point. At least that's what I got from your hinge idea.

If you're worried that it will take a long time to decide which "tuning" you prefer, don't. You have 2 drivers, right? You also have 2 ports and 2 chambers, the center one doesn't make sound so it doesn't count.

Placing them with the magnets in the center chamber will give you the lowest tuning in both ports.

Placing them with the magnets in the vented chambers will give you the highest tuning in both ports

Both of those arrangements will give you a push-pull loading with the drivers firing in opposite directions and result in the least non-linearity distortion. Either way I would wire them electrically out of phase with each other so that they work in unison...... both helping each other.

You can also place the drivers with both magnets down, push-pull. This will give you the lowest tuning on the low port and the highest tuning on the high port. In other words the widest bandwidth box.

Reversing them and placing both magnets up gives you the narrowest bandwidth.

I prefer the lowest overall tuning.

Try Tools / Internet Options / "delete temporary files" (delete all offline content)...... "delete cookies". You might make sure your browser checks for newer versons of stored pages under settings, also. That stuff becomes corrupt sometimes if you use Windows.

The only caution is for other sites you visit that log you in automatically using cookies. You will have to log in to everything again.

I have found that this site dumps you off at odd times or when you least expect it, especially if you refresh a page it many times logs you off as part of the command. Security reasons, I guess.

now about the magnets in center chamber : there would be another advantage besides lower tuning. the cones will couple together better and improve linearity because it's sort of an isobaric loading

"ISOBARIC LOADING" is a term I've heard many times, not very sure of the meaning.

Dowel rod sounds like a very good idea, but the Daytons I have, have a hole in the center covered with a screen. Don't know how I'd attach the rod.

Bob

That funny hole is necessary for cooling the voice coil. Don't block it! You could still have the same bracing by using a flat board with a "U" shape cut out of the ends. Make the U bigger than the hole and it won't impede the airflow.

"Isobaric" refers to pressure or more precisely, equal pressure. When you put 2 drivers together and make them work as one, the pressure between them remains equal on one side of the motor and aided by the other motor and cone, gain a little bit a stability from the "loading". Two motors working as one, coupled with an equal(izing) pressure chamber in between is stronger than one motor.

Many people will say it's a waste of a good driver and that one driver alone will be just as good. They would be correct as far as the first half, or so, of the drivers operating capability goes.

It's when you really need to lean on the drivers that the benefit from iso-loading becomes apparent. When really pushed, the double motors are more stable and resist over-excursion better than one single driver alone can.

In addition to all that, when you have them facing each other and they work as one unit, any non-linear distortion will be averaged and theoretically reduced to one half. Non-linearity is caused from a driver moving in one direction with a different compliance, or restance to movement, than it moves in the other direction. If it moves out easier than it moves in, or vice versa, you have a problem ...... a very common problem.

Obviously the volume change ahead of the woofer must be equal to the volume change behind it, so from that perspective there is no difference between mounting a woofer magnet in or magnet out; however, compliance differences will occur as a result of the cone surround and spider geometry.  For example, a rubber surround which is a half-circle cross section will not deform the same way when the cone moves out versus in - the non linearities are slight in a well designed driver, but for a matched pair of drivers, isobaric mounting averages the non-linearities in each direction so the effective compliance is the same regardless of the direction of cone movement.  Where mounting direction matters is when using drivers as direct radiators, as opposed to in bandpass or horn loaded enclosures, since the shape of the driver cone affects how the sound disperses, and having a metal basket and motor assembly right in front of your driver is obviously going to be detrimental from that perspective.

i also noticed the quality of the bass the hwk produces was much better than i thought it would be. you might find you get more of the 'car audio' bass in your chest effect with 'different placement' i suppose your level of happiness will be dependant on what you prefer, 'bass in chest' or lots of 'quality bass in room', if you find your un happy with the hwk in a few weeks just buy a good 10 in sub and strap it too your chest dureing playback! seriously try the hwk in different locations in the room. and that amp of yours would drive me nuts! as loud as a microwave?  its gotta go back.

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/90#91 date=1138628457]Happy Monday morning.

Hwk is finished except for cosmetics.


But you don't get the "punch in the chest" I was hoping for. Quality of sound is excellent. Needs more tweaking with settings though. Bob

p.s. Have I said how big it is?
[/quote]

You built a subwoofer that wears make-up?

Hi, Bob,

Punch in the chest is not really bass, and LFE is not really about punch. I may have misguided you if you want "punch". I recommended to place your drivers in the lowest tuning, which would take away some punch and give you more gut disruptive pressure effects. All that stuff moving around and rattling is a sign that something is happening that's powerful.

Before you go too far tuning I would live with it for a few days and get used to what it does with many different programs and goof with the placement a little.

You will find that moving the cabinet will have quite an effect on the output, even turning it in the same spot can change everything. After getting tired of moving it around, you can try changing the way the drivers mount inside to re-tune it to a (higher if you want more punch) range you like better.

Another point to take into account before you do any tuning at all is that the drivers need to break-in a little. So, for your new drivers I suggest you just play them for a few days and see what happens, then change stuff, one thing at a time, to improve your experience.

As far as your amp goes, chech to see if there is a "speed" switch on the fans. That light is designed to be OBVIOUS in a smoky room up to 100' or more away. You can always put tape over it. I like to use some of that make-up you mentioned earlier. After I'm satisfied I won't need warranty service I use nail polish to hide those annoying lights, but don't tell anyone.

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/90#95 date=1138635679]. Are you saying it's a trade off between VERY low hz, and the 'feeling' I'm wanting?

Bob [/quote]

no  :-X, its the difference between what it 'should' sound like and what it 'does' sound like. a dinosaur takeing a step 100 feet away would have a very distinct sound, as does a hammond organ and a fender precision bass.the idea is to set up our rigs, so they reproduce "faithfully" the origional sound.trouble is with so many subwoofers is that you would not be able to tell what kind of instrument it was, or exactly how heavy the creature is, because EVERYTHING SOUNDS EXACTLY THE PHUKING THE SAME. its very exciteing to have a sub that will make it obvious when your listening to a bass guitar or human hands drumming on a table  ;D  set all your gains to FLAT. put on a very familiar disk (music) play at medium levels and adjust sub amp until it feels / sounds good in the main listening seat.no bass boost, no loudness, no eq no nada, just a clean signal amplified well and into the hwk! when set up like this the onlything you should ever have to adjust is the 'level or volume' of the sub. if something your playing sounds dryer or sloppyer or harder or deeper its because its 'recorded' that way, and the fact that you can hear the difference is a good thing

60, DirtDawg,   I respect that very much. My goal is quality, always has been. I'll never change that. Nothing better than to sit in a perfectly quiet room listening to well recorded music on a decent system. A religious experience all in itself.  But, the main goal of this system (95%) is for home theater. So when that dinosaur takes a step, I want to feel it too. I mean a nice solid rumble in my chair. When that rocket takes off or the volcano blows, I want more rumble. But occasionally in a movie sound track, it may be necessary to have even more.

Here's what been in the back of my mind, almost since I started building this room.   I was in the listening room at Ultimate Electronics watching a demo of a front projection setup. I started paying more attention to the sub, because you could feel it (in a tactful way) when it was necessary to feel it. After watching for awhile, I got up and looked at the price, $1600.00.  Not on my budget for a sub. So I started down the DIY road. I figured I was half way there, I've got woodworking skills, just don't know crap about how to turn a bare driver into a religious experience, ...... an art form.

DirtDawg, refering back to your signature, I would replace 'music' with 'movie'. It's an escape from reality, a drug.

As far as the test tones go, No, I wasn't listening to them pretending to know what I was doing. My point was to listen to some audio tracks that had a LOT a bass. These are tracks that the car audio guys use during competition. All spl's and db's. Not my listening preference. Just playing with my new toy.... Some of the disks had tones too, so I was more, "playing" with them, than anything else.

What up BOB? When I first started out I was using two HWK15 to "feel the LFE in my chest" but the SPL was painful. Like 60 pointed out the auras are awesome for home theater. I have used auras, pros, clarks, and now buttkicker lfe and now I can't do with out them. Don't get me wrong STEVE's designs are second to none but if I understand what your after is great sound and tactical force for home theater. The SPL is too loud(for neighbors and women) so the next step is tactical. Let me know if you need any info.

Depending on the power of the amp it is possible to run both HWK and "shakers". I run 10 auras(not the pros) off one 250w plate amp with no problems but the cooling fan is running. Auras take 30w(peak at 40Hz), pros 50w(peak at 40Hz), clarks 150w(range from 20Hz to 800Hz?), and the buttkicker 400w minimum(range from 5Hz to 200Hz). Tactical transducers work with everything from music to movies, and even the wife. Oh just so you know I can not do without my HWKs either and believe me I have tried just about everything. Good Luck with your adventure into Home Theater.

If you are looking at the pros over powering four should not be an issue keeping the amp cool will. Shakers draw large amounts of current to operate where a speaker seems to draw a little less. The key is blending the shakers and HWK together. If you have an elevated floor enough shakers in the couch will actual cause the floor to start resonating. All this is a hobby so make it fun.

Bob - I think I know what you might be getting at.  In fact, I had been considering changing my HWK alignment from both magnets in the center chamber to both magnets down, and then adjusting the lower chamber to bring its volume back to what it was.  As an experiment, try clamshelling both drivers in the bottom baffle - you may need to make a spacer because I think the surrounds will touch if you couple them directly together.  This will change the way your box works - eliminating the large center chamber and making it a basic sixth order bandpass box, with a frequency response which is quite a bit lower (since the top chamber is now huge).  I did this with my Daytons and was blown away by some movie effects (I think I was watching "Aliens").  As impressive as this was, having the frequency response shifted so low wasn't well suited to listening to music, so I went back to a driver in each baffle.  In any case, I would definitely try both the clamshell in the bottom, and simply flipping the bottom driver over so that both cones face the top, to see what you prefer for your style of listening, and also give you a feel for the effect of changing driver configurations on the output of this enclosure.

-Sean

i still vote for excellent quality over 'effect' im sure if you set your hwk up accurately,  forget about wanting 'in your chest' bass and get used to 'articulate accurate bass' you will find that it is way more satisfying. a bit like 'just the tip in' is actually more exciteing than 'full immersion'  ;) weird analogy i know but it the best i can do right now!, maybe the difference between a muscle car and a merc? which one would you actually prefer to drive every day!

the explosions etc will SOUND excellent and be very satisfying, its just that shakeing the couch is not easily done below 172db! would you pour sugar into a quality glass of wine? put 'lengerie' on a beautiful woman? 'spinning hubs' on a ferrari? ketchup on a great steak? good bass is refined and extremely satisfying when deliverd naturally, the in your chest sensation your seeking is an 'abomination' of the real thing.

do me a favor untill your 'shakers' arrive.set up your audio rig with everything flat, watch a movie you know well that has good audio, have the houswrecker turned up to a good level but no bass boost or eqing just x it over at about 70 hz and turn it up and watch the movie.when a low note / sound hits, notice how it sounds 'real' maybe not vibrateing your couch, but it will actually 'sound' real , and you should be able to idetify the difference easily between a car door being closed and a dead body landing on the ground, insted of everthing just sounding like a boom or a thump.haveing 'a thunder clap' tickle your brain( and i say brain because the sound enters either sida of it and start tickleing) @ 12 hz accurately is very very weird and excellent, see if you can find a movie with some good thunder in it!

try it?

Yes 60, I will try it. I'll need to go buy new movie though. I've been through all of DVD's searching for what I like to call "ear candy". And am getting too "used" to them. The 2 good examples of thunder I have are #1 "The Day After Tomorrow", a few chapters in. And on "Star Wars III", the THX intro with thunder, lightening and the planet shatters and 'tinkles' down. Both very good.

DirtDawg, I've seen the 'Sounds of Nature" cd's in stores, but have not heard of  a cd called B-5. Those are good ideas. Never thought of actually buying them.  ???  I'm just enough of a nut to go buy some sound effect cds, sit in my cave, and listen to thunder and rain.  My wife will think I lost it for sure.

HEY....Now that I think about it, anybody seen an equivelant DVD of this type of stuff??    Maybe HD??  ;D

Then I can have my eye candy along with my ear candy....

Hey 60ndown, yes I would put 'lengerie' on a beautiful woman.
   at first......... Then I'd ...... um.......

Bob

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/105#112 date=1138832739]

DirtDawg, I've seen the 'Sounds of Nature" cd's in stores, but have not heard of  a cd called B-5. Those are good ideas. Never thought of actually buying them.  ???  I'm just enough of a nut to go buy some sound effect cds, sit in my cave, and listen to thunder and rain.  My wife will think I lost it for sure.

Bob [/quote]

Hey, Bob,

Before you check the stores for that kind of stuff, try the library. I don't know if I'm alone in this but, our local public library is absolutely amazing after an expansion a couple of years ago. I recently did a number search at the library and they have over 60 thousand disk titles, now. They have as varied a selection of DVDs as Blockbuster does. Although delayed by a few months on new stuff, they're free! For a special effects CD, which you won't use very often, I would certainly look there first.

B-5 (DVD) is a cult followers name for "Babylon 5", a series from Showtime a few years back. It was a Sci-Fi program, which was considered groundbreaking in the areas of cinema-like sound and definition over the air/satellite on a TV series budget. It also had a complete saga, beginning to end, written before it was started, unlike most series productions which watch for viewer polls to tell them what's next. It is a little cheesy compared to the latest big budget movie, but if you are a Sci-Fi fan you should give it a try.

I can't remember which episodes, took place on Mars (in the process of being terraformed) where violent thunderstorms are common. The sound was prety good throughout the series, though.

A stable amp is all you need with your Aura's. They present a hghly inductive load similar to a massive wall of speakers, but the impedance and current draw (someone mentioned ) is predictable. You can probably drive them with the same amp if you are creative with your wiring. Just stay within the recommended impedance capacity of your amp. I wouldn't mix them with speakers on one channel, because of the higher reactance. Put all the shakers on one channel and all the speakers on the other.

On other thing many forget is that the phasing on the shakers is just as critical as your main speakers, and switching it around until you get the best result will be necessary. I hope you enjoy your shakers.

Don't judge a library by the bricks on the outside.
Sorry, my "tic" is coming back.

That scheme looks perfect. If the items (whatever they are) you are connecting with that diagram are all the same impedance, the total impedance of all 4 connected in that fashion, combine to equal the same impedance as a single unit.

In other words if your shakers are 8 ohms each, then a block of four, in a series/parallel arrangement, will be 8 ohms also.
Repeat as necessary.

connect the daytons in paralell = 4 0hms. = 900 wrms = you dont need any bass shakers

If you wire all the shakers like in diagram to one channel they will each recieve 100 w.  The daytons on the other hand when wired in parrallel would recieve 200 w each.


I would do what sixty said, wire the daytons in parralel bridged to the amp, resulting in 450 w a piece, and then get a seperate amp for the shakers, that one in the PDF is like $100.


That would give you the highest output through the daytons, and you wouldn't have to worry about underpowering anything.

Thanks guys, I think I'll go with DirtDawgs way for now. Have been on a spending spree recently, and need to chill out. (havn't told you about the Xbox360 that's coming this week). I assume total ohms could be checked with a DVOM after wiring is complete, just before installing wires to amp or receiver? When we talk about a "4 ohm load", is this a measureable number, or is it theoretical?

Is there an industry standard for guage wiring (output side of amp) versus wattage?  Wondering if I've got enough.... Does it hold true for shakers as well? Could 'Romex' (12 - 14 guage household wiring) be used for speakers? I have plenty and wouldn't mind using it for the HWK since it may end up 30 feet from the amp (30 feet in wiring, not as 'the crow flies'.)

Roll of film is finished, need to have developed. Will show you what I did in center chamber for driver bracing. Would also like to show you a picture of my screen wall.

Sorry to hear about your neighbors, 60.

Bob

...... without distortion.

amen

Bob

as far as i know, the closest decware product to the imperial would be the quad loaded hwk-18 (im not the speaker God you may expect to answer...i'm just speaking from what i've read on the forum).

i remember someone said he remodeled the hwk18...but the plans contain it scaled, so i guess you could use them...

Nope, it looks like we all got sidetracked by the HWK vs. IMP thing...

i d k the answer, but do you have pictures?

Yes, I have pictures.  Need to reinstall scanner software on Dell machine after the catastrophic failure recently (I created trying to install dual monitor output for projector). Also been playing with new Xbox360. I know a lot of you guys are not into gaming, but you should see todays High definition graphics on a 140" widescreen with an optical audio output on 7.1 surround. It'll make you a kid again. (Which is another reason scanner isn't fixed)

Will scan pictures this weekend. May have to post on Monday at work since I still can't post on this website at home.

(Never posted pic before, that'll be a whole new ...  :'( )

Got the shakers, but seating still not here....

Bob
Bye all,  have a good weekend. Time to clock out.

I just think that 12GA Romex will get you 95% of the way to perfection for speaker cables in most cases. To get a couple more % you will need a home improvement loan first. And IF anyone seriously thinks that your fanny can tell the difference between 12GA Romex and the best solid Ag/braided/shielded/WTF fancy cable in your shaker application, just laugh it off and tell the story to your grandkids.

I won't be the first to spill blood over cabling issues!

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/120#122 date=1139226968]..... I assume total ohms could be checked with a DVOM after wiring is complete, just before installing wires to amp or receiver? When we talk about a "4 ohm load", is this a measureable number, or is it theoretical? ...... Bob [/quote]

Sorry, Bob, I just realized you asked 2 questions. 4 ohms is real and measurable, not just theoretical, but more properly called "nominal". That just means that since they have to call it something we can all agree to call it 4 ohms. It will only measure an actual 4 ohm impedance at certain frequencies while operating, but it can vary widely at different frequencies.

If you put you meter across the speaker terminals you will not measure 4 ohms. Your meter alone, without some other equipment hooked up also, cannot measure impedance. You will get a measurement of DC resistance, which is usually a little less than nominal impedance. If I was going to make a SWAG it would be around 3.2 to 3.6 ohms measuring with just an ohm meter for a 4 ohm driver load.

yeah, any time you have speaker wires running near a large alternating current, probably a bad idea, so don't go into the walls next to the power wire.

For pictures, I use Photobucket, but www.tinypic.com is nice.

Just upload the picture from your computer and they will spit out a link for you, copy the one that looks like:

[ i m g ] http://whatever [ / i m g ]  (no spaces.)  
-paste it in the post: that will put the actual picture in the post.

Otherwise, copy the http:// one and paste that into post for a clickable link to the photos.

-JRock

How helpful !  Damn DD.

You guys are terrific. Will check out those site. I've seen some that are just horrible / not user friendly. Viewing somebodys pics on some of these sites are a pain. Havnt seen image shack or tinypic. Seen photobucket before. Didn't know these things are free though.

Thank you guys very much...

Bob

Ok, got an account with "Webshots", uploaded the pictures. I can view them on the site, but they are not 'public' yet for some reason.... Maybe the pictures have to be 'reviewed' before they let they out for the public to see? You know checking for porn ?? obsenity ??

Bob

Does this work for anybody? Should be an album with 5 pictures.
http://community.webshots.com/user/XBobJacksonX

Very nice!

For bracing the tw drivers together, what is holding those pieces of wood?

Nice job, Bob!
I like the way you braced the drivers together. You'll have to give us some closeups of that operation.
Since we've already polluted your thread with unecessary blather (THE term of the day!), you need to tell us more about the webshots membership. I've often wondered if it would be worth doing, but I'm concerned about putting their software on my machine. I like to run a pretty clean box.
Tell me why you chose webshots.


MOD: ....... maybe it makes more sense without the typos .......

J_Rock, Thank you.  I was afraid the wood might rattle loose and fall into a driver so I though some bracing was in order.  The 1X2 mdf between the drivers is slightly press fit before final tightening of the drivers and glued with Gorilla Glue. As anal retentive as I can get sometimes about 'beefing things up' I remained true-to-form; Get this... I stapled a heavy gauge nylon string to one of the pieces of wood (at this point in time it hasn't occurred to me yet the proximity my METAL stapler would be to the magnet) then about four times I tightly wound the string around the base of the wood against the magnet base and stapled the end. Since that still wasn't enough I though I'd be a good idea, since Gorilla Glue expands, to coat the string with it. The wood is pushed up against a small dome in the center of the Dayton. Seems very sturdy, just don't ask to change driver orientation......easily.

60ndown, it's not a very good picture from a perspective standpoint, but that driver assembly was centered. I spent a painful amount of time agonizing the perfection of that very point.

DirtDawg, Thank you. I'm not sure I can get a camera in there any more. I did make a 6" access square (acoustically transparent) but not sure if I'd get a good photo sticking the lens in a dark hole.  ( insert joke here ) and yes, Blather is going for word of the week if Sam has his way... As far as Webshots go, It seems ok to me. Haven't found any ad/spyware yet lurking on my machine. However I occationally get a small window that pops up by the clock telling me about new daily pictures I can view, but you should be able to turn that off. I chose it based on a recommendation of one of my customers at work. He saw my frustration, and said he had used them with no problems. He caught me in a weak moment and while visiting the site I decided to go for it.

Adrian D., Yes part # 295-130. These are what I've got.

Seating will be here Tuesday !

Shakers are wired. Yes with 12 guage Romex about 30', then 14 guage RCA wire (premium?) from Aura to Aura.  Couldn't resist, so I wheeled up my PC chair and....well....you know the end of that story. So now I now have a wooden rocking chair for my temporary PC chair.
Very cool things these Aura's are.

Bob

new seats must be comfortable? where are you?

maybe you can start drinking your wine from a 'big gulp' container like the rest of us

[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/150#151 date=1140531826]Wife called from home seating has arrived !  

At work now, 9 more hours before I can go home...

Bob

[/quote]

Haven´t seen that kind of emotion over T.V seating since Homer Simpson

im excited about cutting some lengths of 5 inch plastic pipe and playing

'i wonder how long these ports should be'??

and i mean excited  :D

Channel 'A' blown on amp  >:(

We'll see how "Music Supply Center" handles warranty claims.
Will have more pics soon. (Have nothing else to do, listening to a system with no amp won't be keeping me busy.... ) Might as well take some pictures.

Bob

I did not noticed when it stopped working (that channel was for the shakers, and my butt was not in the seat).  I had wired the shakers, REwired the sub (from bridge to 'B'), made sure everything was working. Then proceded to play with sub location. At one point I had sat down and noticed no vibs in my seat. No LED on the amp for that channel. oops. I do remember one hellova static shock when I touched the gain level....hmmm  ::)  That would do it. Now...let THAT be a lesson to ya. And to think some of us were worried about hot swapping wires. We didn't talk about releasing your 'charge' before you touch your equipment.

Bob

Here's how they are wired.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/series%20parallel.pdf

Ok, in my mind I've installed a ground strap, next run it to house plumbing? Run a led from every component chassis to this strap?

Bob

How about a humidifier set to 80% he he,.....

ZZZZAAAP !

Well, I'm not 100% sure that's what happened. But....who knows? If that's what did it, it's a piss poor chassis design. If that's NOT how it happened, then I've got a 5 week old broken component, shouldn't have happened either way. IMO.

Emailed Music Supply Center Friday morning about possible warranty claim, still no response.

Bob

p.s. You may be able to open yours up and check, may just be a faulty LED? Fixed for $1.00 at Radio Shack??

Understood

Bob