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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> New to tubes? This is for everyone. https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1652329498 Message started by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 05:24:57 |
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Title: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 05:24:57 I have no affiliation with Kevin from Upscale Audio but I have watched his videos over many years and I trust him. I have sent hundreds of customers to him without so much as an email or phone call. He and I have never communicated. That said, he did me a real service this week by posting a video about TUBE LIFE that you need to see. I agree with 100% of everything he said. Please watch it. https://youtu.be/muFkxDyozao Steve |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Dr3wman on 05/12/22 at 05:35:49 Kevin is what makes this hobby great: genuine, passionate, friendly, and a little whacky. I love watching his videos, and just wish I needed something he sold. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by EdwardT on 05/12/22 at 17:47:55 Great video, it matches my experience with both pre and power tubes (albeit in guitar amps) over the past 40+ years. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 17:52:14 Like myself, he has had to put out hundreds of little forrest fires about the "tube shortage" which actually doesn't exist. I believe he has done some videos specifically on that as well. Steve |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Bluemage on 05/12/22 at 18:11:23 Kevin and Kat make some amazing, very informative videos. Kat is a classically-trained musician, and really knows her stuff. When my Decware gear gets closer to shipping, I plan on ordering a new t-table from Kat. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by yoshi carroll on 05/12/22 at 18:17:15 Very helpful video, thanks Steve! I'm still confused about the topic of how powering the amp on and off changes tube life. Some people say that leaving the amp on all the time increases tube life, but the video doesn't mention that at all. Also, when considering tube life, is the tube getting worn out at the same rate by just being turned on vs playing music? I guess the short question is, should I be leaving my amp on all the time, or turning it off when it's not in use? |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/13/22 at 22:23:18 Steve, fwiw, associating with Kevin Deal is no feather in your cap. The disclaimer of no association with him carries little weight with many, including myself. His sales techniques are not first class. Decware has toed the line of professional marketing, to great benefit. I'm aware this note will generate many who disagree, but I would ask you this question: do Andy Bouwman, Jim McShane or Brent Jessee ever sound like used car salesman? Passion toward delivering quality doesn't include being brash or obnoxious. Furthermore, the quality of craftsmanship between decware and prima luna is laughable, let alone the sound production. Compare the pricing. What is good ol' Kevin giving in his Chinese made product that Decware isn't? The answer is NOT good sound and truly quality construction. Steve, my recommendation is to make your own video or do without. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by GroovySauce on 05/13/22 at 23:21:01 Safebelayer, Kevin has the slick used car salesman vibe. I have bought tubes from him. I had a bad tube and he quickly replaced it. Kevin put out a video that has value. Steve linked to the video and said this is valuable. Brent Jessee, Andy Bouwman and Jim McShane didn’t put out a video about tube life. If one of them did, I’m guessing Steve’s message would have been the same. Yoshi, I’m also curious about what / if the break even between leaving tubes on and turning them off, then on again a few hours later. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 00:13:52 Groovy, I understand your point. I don't deal with salesman who act like Kevin...I don't have to. Andy will replace tubes, as do Jessee and Jim. As for the video, what value does it really provide for Decware? Is Steve lacking for credibility in his own merit? If Steve says something is good, all of us decware kool-aid drinkers believe it. Steve has done plenty of videos in the past, do one now that makes the claims Kevin did. Anyway, point taken. Thank you for being respectful. First class. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Kamran on 05/14/22 at 00:27:48 Thanks Steve, I saw that video yesterday and agree, it’s a must see. No need to second guess the source. Even though I’m a Brent Jesse customer and appreciate his down to earth, kind, affable nature, I equally dig Kevin’s whacky style and passion for this business. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by piezoman on 05/14/22 at 00:40:06 Quote:
ummm....fascinating. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 00:44:33 Brad, you said it. "Fascinating" is right. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by piezoman on 05/14/22 at 00:50:42 Yessir, "Uncle Kevvy" generally sells his tubes at an inflated rate, everything he sells according to him is always the greatest of all time, and he's got a bit of narcissistic personality type that's wanting in the modesty dept. I don't deal with overt characters like him either, as I posted earlier I never purchased anything from him and never will. "Uncle Kevvy" doesn't need my business. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/14/22 at 01:30:26 Quote:
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 01:48:39 Please tell me more about what you're trying to convey. Thanks[size=20][/size] |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/14/22 at 02:14:44 Not trying to say anything really. Just notice some people on the forum are a little protective about Decware. Example DancingSea posts are sometime taken the wrong way. I see where DancingSea coming from. Some people left the forum for a while because of topics about the waitlist or whatever. Just because of a little discussion. Keyed in on your Decware kool-aid comment. Sorry I'm not a master writer like Dancingsea. His kung fu is too strong. So I will say it can go off the rails quick when the topic about Steve or Decware goes out of the light. Edit: I see where DS is coming from most of the time. Or at least understand his position. Sorry DS no disrespect implied. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 02:23:46 Gotcha. That makes sense. For the record, I'm not a kool-aid drinker. I generally believe him, certainly much more than Kevin Deal. Thanks for the clarity. Peace to you and yours. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by thomas8927eva on 05/14/22 at 07:53:53 I love watching his videos, and just wish I needed something he sold. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Bilyeaux on 05/14/22 at 13:52:20 Thanks Steve, good info from our hippie friend….as a new to tubes owner I can use it. My UFO2 is breaking in and at 7 months sounding great |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Edsonic on 05/14/22 at 14:51:48 So then, someone who fabricates Scandal! based on provably false assumption based on technical illiteracy elicits "I can see where he's coming from," whereas those who present facts contrary to that fiction are described as "kool-aid drinkers." Interesting. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/14/22 at 15:18:56 Edsonic, Not really looking to defend or promote DS, seems like he can hold his own. My comment was in general a observation of someone's point of view that can lead into some useful info. Not all of us green cat's are as skilled or knowable as the cool kids. As far as your interpretation of a conversation well that's your interpretation. I'm just along for the ride. My view is it's been informative. I can respect and see views from all sides. Just sucks people feel they have to leave the forum over a conversation. But what do I know really. Don't remember calling anyone a kool-aid drinker. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Edsonic on 05/14/22 at 15:54:25 "Don't remember calling anyone a kool-aid drinker." Not in those precise words, you did it indirectly from words of another - Quote:
I was once as technically illiterate as anyone. I didn't attain the knowledge I have now by giving equal consideration to fact and fiction. I didn't learn how to run a mixing console, learn how basic electronic filters work, -and have the ability to know what is and what is not "EQ type behavior"- by 'respecting views from all sides.' |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Edsonic on 05/14/22 at 16:43:18 On that point; It does not require super intelligence or specific training of any sort to understand that it is a particular reworking of a circuit extracted from the ZR2 being used in the driver stage of this new amplifier. Not "putting an EQ into the amp." At least four other people (not counting myself) showed by their responses that they understood it. They were not 'drinking the kool-aid' and taking Steve's explanations on faith. Long before this discussion, those people obviously had attained enough knowledge to understand what Steve was explaining, having gotten to that point by ongoing accumulation of useful facts. Saving fanciful notions and recreational conjecture for non-technical discussions. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/14/22 at 17:07:27 I'll own initially saying the kool-aid comment. It was meant tongue in cheek for those that trust and buy-in to Steve's products. In no way was I saying belief in any and every thing he says or does. That said, his referrals are taken seriously. I don't doubt Kevin Deal has some expertise. He also is unprofessional. I expressed my opinion. The information gained by his video could have been attained elsewhere, reproduced in-house say decware, or some other way not attaching decware to KD. Disclaimer aside, Decware is now associated with him. Some people find Kevin amusing, informative, etc. I do not...not in the least. He crosses the boundary of class and professional integrity...for me. I stand by my position. If any inexperienced tube or tube equipment owners want support or expertise, I would recommend others to speak with or to reference their websites. Edsonic, I think you're agreeing that Steve provides are the credible need for how tube equipment functions. Yes? Peace, everyone. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Archie on 05/14/22 at 17:31:23 Quote:
Then best not express opinions on subjects they are ignorant about and just read, ask questions and learn instead. Personally, I tend to pick my "experts" and trust their judgement until I can approach their level and think for myself. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/14/22 at 18:10:43 Guess I'm a little misunderstood. Whatever not a big deal guess I'll get my stuff in line. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Archie on 05/14/22 at 18:17:18 If you are referring to my post, I noticed your comment that I quoted and used it in a general way. Unlike other "social media," opinion alone doesn't hold water here. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/14/22 at 18:42:20 Your fine Archie, it was good advise sir. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by JOMAN on 05/14/22 at 19:04:16 Archie, Thank you! 👍 |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/14/22 at 19:23:54 Well since JOMAN commented. The whole kool-aid reference was the back and forth of comments on the forum using DS as an example. Sooner or later someone feeling get hurt. Just thought it sucks it goes like that. No need to jump into my stuff. Guess I didn't explain myself very well. sorry, just conforms my observations. Someone says we don't like what you say so stop other side says piss off. It's lame in my opinion just like your speakers lol |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Archie on 05/14/22 at 23:43:16 This is a partisan forum. Just look at the name on the banner. And that's okay with me One way you can judge the loyalty and respect is by some getting defensive at "perceived" negative comment about Steve or his product. My impression is that Decware wouldn't exist if Steve wasn't an out-of-the-box thinker. That kind of approach is bound to attract criticism or misunderstanding from time to time. Call it "drinking the Kool-Aid," fan-boy(ism), loyalty or whatever, Steve still makes great stuff. [smiley=dankk2.gif] |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/15/22 at 00:15:24 Archie just let it go. Just was thinking about something when I read that phrase. Not hear to cause trouble. In my mind wasn't thinking negatively about Decware. Just about someone getting their feelings hurt over nothing. Read that phrase at the same time. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Archie on 05/15/22 at 00:22:32 Why do you assume my posts are all about you? They are not. Do you think you're the first to use the phrase "drinking the Kool Aid" here? Get over yourself. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/15/22 at 00:49:55 Sh!t Archie my bad I assumed they were aimed at me. Just assumed it was because of my thin post last night. I'm over myself already. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Archie on 05/15/22 at 00:59:45 Yeah, not at all. What I was hoping to do was to nip in the bud further "bashing" for fandom. Not that I thought our were. Most of us here are guilty of being acolytes to a large degree. It's why we stick around I guess. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/15/22 at 01:31:41 Right now I'm a huge fan have to pay for my order next week and I went all out (for my budget). |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Same Old DD on 05/15/22 at 02:48:39 Did I miss the Hot Button, here? I tend to agree with the main point of the vid: tube life may be different than advertised by some tube sellers. Next? |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Burgermeester on 05/16/22 at 12:45:55 What a great thread. Amazing. Captures everything about the Decware forums that has so far made me uncomfortable. I had no idea this many people feel the same way. I also don't see any cure for it -- there is no cure for caring about something passionately and wanting to see one's own experience replicated/validated elsewhere -- and that's OK. A good reminder for me to keep my posts very courteous because I'm interacting with people I've never met, and will never meet. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by piezoman on 05/16/22 at 14:15:15 https://www.resellerratings.com/store/Upscale_Audio |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by piezoman on 05/16/22 at 15:09:07 Quote:
one reason this place is so good is because every once in a while the absurd falsity of hyper-candied congeniality is set aside for the real world. a little balance, so to speak. no need to be uncomfortable. its an on-line forum. you'll get over it. everyone deserves to express their own opinion. long live the 1st Amendment and may God love the Founding Fathers of the Great American Experiment! |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Steve Deckert on 05/17/22 at 03:43:08 As I mentioned I don't know Kevin. I haven't researched his reputation. I just go by gut and so far I have only watched his videos about tubes, as that is obviously all that would catch my attention and over the years they have all rang true. I know that he has an inventory that would exceed most online tube stores because I have seen it in his videos. If you have the capital to keep that kind of inventory, you also have the capital to have staff to carefully measure and grade it which is evident by how it's sold and the prices. As someone who has thrown away enough substandard tubes to finance a small home, I see real value in this. I have purchased tubes from many of the main tube stores in the USA and get fairly poor quality matching and virtually no other meaningful testing. In fact many use the popular MAXIMATCHER, of which I have, but that is an unregulated tester that drifts by several points with only a couple volts change on the input from the wall outlet. This means that when a person is reading tube A and marking down it's value, a motor turns on elsewhere in the building and drops the voltage to the device which in turns gives you a false reading on the second tube, and then the motor turns off and the third tube reads fine, etc. You have to not only use a variac set to a consistent voltage but check it as you read the value of each tube. How many times do you think this really happens? After all we live in a world where after over 50 years of trying -- McDonnald's Hamburgers still can't deliver a consistent product through the drive-through. This is in fact the very reason we put current meters on our amplifiers so that you can see when you buy matched tubes if they actually match. I always got the impression that Kevin actually knows he's doing. He obviously has the passion to go to that level and likely has the proper equipment to go a little past just "testing" which is how he can justify a healthy prices. If I'm wrong and things have gotten loose over there I apologize for misleading anyone, but so far I'm not really convinced that I am wrong. Steve |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Same Old DD on 05/17/22 at 07:59:47 I have only purchased premium tubes a few times (McShane was my favorite at the beginning of my journey) and I always felt I was paying a little for the availability of the tube type and A LOT for the careful matching. I have never gone into the esoterica of rare, NOS, super premium tubes, though. Is this where the hissy starts? |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Edsonic on 05/17/22 at 11:44:32 Yes. For a reasonable up-charge the better tube sellers will test dual triodes to match the hissy of both sections. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by GroovySauce on 05/17/22 at 12:55:23 I have a maximatcher and a maxipre. Used with a KCC Scientific regenerator. The power here varies from 112-124v. So the regenerator is a must to get stable readings on tube tests. The tube's from Brent Jesse and Andy Bouwman have been very well matched. No tests for the tubes from Kevin. For new tubes, vivatubes.com has the best matching for new production. After sending tubes back from well rated Ebay sellers and a few dot coms. Vivatubes is the place to go. No experience with NOS from Vivatubes. Ebay seller with 20,000+ 100% positive feedback had triodes off by over 18% on "platinum" matched. Their standard for platinum was within 5%. When sent a photo of the readings on the tester they said my tester was bad. I said okay lets send the tubes to Maximatcher and see if my readings are wrong. Response was I'll give you a refund. To be fair a quad of KT77's from the same seller and they were really tightly matched. With ebay sellers I had issues with 6922's and KT77's getting noisy after 200-400+ hours. Most will take the tubes back. It's a hassle and then when the next pair start going wonky they start blaming the amp. As a side note for Cryotone. Dang! How does he match them so close! he must have to buy lots of thousands! Closest matching tubes I've ever tested. Needed to double check to make sure the same tube didn't get tested twice. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Same Old DD on 05/17/22 at 15:29:53 Good info, Groovy! I do not need to buy any tubes right now, but I will look at Brent and Andy before I do buy again. I do not own a tube tester (should I?), so I have to go by the grassroots method. Trust the old over abused ears, mostly. Thanks for that. Our power is about the same, but I have my Kleenline set for 117V and it keeps up, OK, as far as anything I can measure with my only 'scope. I have a selection of Cryo'ed tubes I bought from Tubeman in the past and there was no question of higher performance and matching. I am still using them. I went back and filled my Pre with the 12AX7s all Cryo'ed. It made a very noticeable difference in clarity, just to start trying to define the sound improvement. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Same Old DD on 05/17/22 at 15:33:11 Edsonic, I was actually talking about the "hissy fit" that seemed to smoke up this thread some. Wondering if it was the more advanced, expensive tubes that caused the kerfuffle above. Both my Granpas were decent horse traders and I learned along the way to not fear the "used car salesman" types. ::) |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Edsonic on 05/17/22 at 16:24:48 I knew what you meant. I was just indulging in a bit of opportunistic silliness. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Same Old DD on 05/17/22 at 16:55:13 At least your comment makes more sense now. I think we could use more of that instinct. [smiley=tunes40.gif] |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by DancingSea on 05/18/22 at 01:57:42 Jec3504 wrote: Quote:
I am shocked, completely shocked that my posts are sometimes taken the wrong way. I have always assumed that all my posts are met with great respect and admiration. But apparently I am unknowingly way off on that one! [smiley=icqlite22.png] I’m just happy this has been brought to my attention so I can better conform my thinking to fit the room in a way that will foster greater popularity for myself. When ye ‘ole popularity starts to dip, then ya gotta raise the conformity efforts. I’m kidding. I do genuinely understand that I can be a handful. Hey, I’m a free thinker with an irreverent sense of humor who is half drunk on Maui sun, sand and sea. All I write is done so with tropical good cheer. My allegiance is to what I see as truth and have very little regard for tribalism in any form. Tribalism in religion, politics, audio - just about anywhere - will meet a raised eyebrow from me. Once the tribe is formed, truth is often the first casualty. I may not always be correct, but I’m assuredly honest. Yes, I feel that the addition of ZRock like sonic enhancements to the Sarah 300B ought to be disclosed in the marketing, especially given that no other Decware amp has the same enhancements and that audiophiles are notorious for shunning anything that remotely smells like a ZRock. But that’s just one obscure human being’s opinion, a perspective that in no way diminishes my love for what Decware products have done for my system - transformative. I understand that a position advocating honesty & transparency could be construed as controversial. I also do not understand why such a position is controversial. Yet I could see such a thing happening when the tribe is made more important than what is true. As for Kevin Deal, I get a total kick out of him. Yes, he’s brash and has a used car salesman type vibe, but I’ve been his customer for over 20 years and he has been a great dealer to me. Extremely knowledgeable and generous with that knowledge. And a great sense of humor. I love his candidness, even if it ruffles feathers. Actually, I love his candidness because it ruffles feathers. I much rather have someone tell me like it is rather than dance through a polished, politically correct smoothed out rap. It’s worth pointing out that Kevin’s video completely roasts Paul McGowan. Keven is basically saying Paul is full of s**t when it comes to tube knowledge, in so many words. And it’s for that reason that I’d suggest Steve think twice about sharing the video. It’s perhaps not the best look for one company to share a video that flames a competing amp manufacturer - even though I personally have zero problem with Kevin calling out Paul. I totally get that some will be offended by Kevin, that his style is off-putting. And that’s ok. We all radiate towards different things, towards different personalities. I can say that beneath Kevin’s sales style is a genuinely decent human being. He’s a good guy. Party on! |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Archie on 05/18/22 at 02:32:14 Quote:
Well, I'm glad you think so. [smiley=icqlite19.png] |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by Edsonic on 05/18/22 at 12:35:11 Three year-old repetitively tells everyone there is a monster under his bed at night. No matter how many older siblings, parents, aunts/uncles explain that there is no monster, the three year-old rejects undesired answer with hands-over-ears response to each and all: "nuh uh! nuh uh!" 'Free thinker.' |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by jec3504 on 05/18/22 at 14:03:12 DancingSea, My apologies for bringing up you in my covid induced thoughts on the predictability of a subject that had nothing to do with you. I was out of line to do so. Some how in my explanation of my read of a situation I went a little too far. Sorry |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by DancingSea on 05/21/22 at 02:49:02 jec3504 - oh, no worries. I got a kick out of it. Actually, I was reading through the thread and kept seeing "DS" mentioned and began to wonder what this "DS" was? So I did a text search on the page, and lo and behold, it was little 'ol me... I was like "oh geez, I'm getting in trouble and I haven't even posted to the thread yet!" :D I didn't have time to figure out why, but I assumed it was about my Steve Hoffman posts about the 300B which have been largely misunderstood by the Decware consigliere. But anyway.... cue the Barney music.... I had a few more thoughts about Kevin Deal, of whom I'm a fan. Kevin can be like a yappy chihuahua. Not that long ago Raven Dave of Raven Audio made a very low quality, and obscure promotional video in which a guy said something like "after one listen to the Raven Audio amp I boxed up my PrimaLuna for return". It was so low brow that the "guy" was likely Raven Dave's son. I don't think the video had that many views. But Kevin Deal caught wind of it and issued a devastating video about Raven Audio in which he presented an expose about how low quality their amps are, and included quasi funny, yet mean inferences. I liked the video, made me laugh, but it was a rough assault on Raven Audio over their stupid and obscure little swipe at PrimaLuna. There was a big kerfuffle and the video was removed by Kevin. But I'm sure Raven Audio will not be taking any more swipes at PrimaLuna. This tube video wasn't created because Kevin wanted to educate us about tube life. It was another Kevin retaliatory video because Paul McGowan made a passing swipe at Upscale, as shown in Kevin's video. Yes, Kevin's tube knowledge is quite good, but his motivations were petty, albeit entertaining. I'm not sure why Kevin feels such a need to lash back. Upscale Audio is doing really well. But that's his style. See squirrel and bark. |
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Title: Re: New to tubes? This is for everyone. Post by safebelayer on 05/21/22 at 03:24:00 It is that type of behavior, which anyone who has a minimal amount of exposure to Kevin Deal is aware, that makes it curious why Steve would connect his name to such unprofessionalism. To be clear, I hope it's a one off, though Steve noted he has repeatedly sent customers to upscale. 😟 |
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