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Message started by Melvin on 11/19/21 at 10:46:29

Title: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/19/21 at 10:46:29

Good morning. Turned on the amp this morning and experienced a brief flash of white light and ... nada. No power. I'm assuming this is a blown fuse, however, I have no experience in this regard. I've had a tube fail in the past but no arcing, red-plating, etc. So, before I do a thing, thoughts? Much appreciated gentlemen.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Bilyeaux on 11/19/21 at 11:37:35

My amp shipped yesterday my first tube item. Sounds like it, should be a spare I would swap and see or PM Lon or one of the Veterans. Good luck and update us

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/19/21 at 11:56:12

Melvin, from my experience this is likely a rectifier failure. . . . If so. you'll need another rectifier, good idea to have one on hand. Your main fuse may have blown and that will be easy, there should be a spare in the holder, a short slow blow 3 Amp fuse.

If that fuse is replaced and you still have no "action" . . .one of the rectifier safety board fuses inside the amp may have blown. These are two small slow blow 200 milli-Amp fuses and a single 6.5 Amp small slow blow fuse. Take the screws off holding the top plate to the base and flip the amp over and you'll immediately see these fuses.


Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/19/21 at 11:58:52

Thanks @Bilyeaux. That's a good suggestion and I will do exactly that if need be. Congrats on your purchase. Great little amps .. love mine.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/19/21 at 12:03:34

Lon, thank you. I'm using a near-new rectifier and have a spare. Should I check that first? And will a blown fuse be obvious? I know, newbie question.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/19/21 at 12:09:39

I would certainly try the spare rectifier first. If a fuse is blown it will not activate, and there will be no harm done to the spare rectifier. If it TOO blows, there's another problem in the amp that Steve should investigate. If it doesn't power up there is likely a blown fuse. I would look at the power inlet fuse first perhaps to see if it appears blown then try the rectifier.

The clear glass fuses usually seem blackened or the filament running across it within appears to be burned into two pieces. Not always though, I've had a few bad fuses over the decades look as if they might be good but aren't. The 6.5 amp within will likely have a "porcelain" or opaque sandy look and it may not immediately look as if it has gone bad.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/19/21 at 12:18:25

OK, great. Much appreciated Lon. I've run out of time this morning so it will have to wait a bit.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/20/21 at 16:04:19

I would look at the power inlet fuse first perhaps to see if it appears blown then try the rectifier.


Had time this morning. I checked the power inlet fuse first and it looked shot so I put in the spare, leaving the rectifier in place. Powered up the amp and the rectifier briefly sparked like fireworks and the spare fuse blew immediately. So, bad rectifier I assume (glad I have a spare). Now I need a fuse and some spares. I would like to purchase fuses similar to the stock fuse and hope I can get them at a local hardware store. Anyone have an idea of what the stock fuse is? Using a magnifying glass I made out "T3.15AL 250V" on the cap and I know it's 5mm x 20mm. This is basically all Greek to me and could sure use a link or whatever info you'd care to share. Thanks guys.


Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/20/21 at 16:41:19

3.15 amp 250 volt 5x20 mm is all you need to know, they are very standard and common. If you’re interested you can try a ceramic fuse in addition (or instead of) a glass one, they are relatively inexpensive and a lot of people think they are an upgrade. But be careful, it can lead you down the path of audiophile fuse rolling.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/20/21 at 17:21:33

Thanks CAJames.

I've read a bit on various fora and most fuse threads seem pretty contentious. And yes, fuse rolling is something I'd like to avoid (for now anyway)! Of course, if the ceramic type are reasonably priced I'll likely purchase a couple out of curiosity.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/20/21 at 17:34:43

Yes, as are discussions about e.g. cables and rectifiers. “Audiophile” fuses was a cliff I was sure I would never look over, but since Decware I’ve decided pretty much everything matters and now I have hundred dollar fuses in my system FWIW. You’ve been warned.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/20/21 at 18:04:11

LOL .. thanks for the warning. I've already been down a few rabbit holes myself. And you're right, of course, about cables and rectifiers. I suppose just about everything "audiophile" is pretty contentious these days.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/20/21 at 18:22:08

CA is right about the fuse, it can be a plain 3A fuse as well, that's what the manual calls for. Get a slow blow.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/20/21 at 19:03:21

Good point re: slow blow Lon.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/22/21 at 11:03:58

I couldn't find slow blow fuses locally yesterday so I grabbed the fast blow ones I could find. They looked to be the same as the 2 fuses that came with the amp, btw. The first blew immediately and I didn't try the 2nd. So, I placed an order for some slow blow fuses which should arrive tomorrow. Now I'm 2nd guessing myself and wondering if my spare rectifier is a problem. It's the original tube that shipped with the amp and there's nothing I can see "wrong" with it, but I'm such a neophyte.

In the meantime I started my search for rectifiers figuring it was a good time to try one of the NOS variety and I need a spare anyway. I've read about them here and elsewhere and am more confused than I'd care to admit. There are so many variants with numbering/lettering schemes clouding my feeble brain. Anyone care to help me? I'd like a drop-in replacement (I don't want to even think about adapters at this point). I'm going to purchase 2. I'd like to stay under $150 for 1. I'd like to spend less for the spare. Thank you kindly gentlemen.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/22/21 at 12:37:55

Gosh, not sure why this is happening. I didn't think a "fast blow" would blow so quickly but perhaps so, that's why I have always used the "slow blow."

I honestly would suggest a call in to Sarah to schedule a talk with Steve about this. It may be the rectifiers. . .it may not be. And you don't want to risk more rectifiers. His advice might be the most important right now.

As for NOS and other rectifiers. . .there are so many that can work and I would experiment with some lower priced options before going deeply into the more expensive items. I would look on eBay for NOS American 5U4 and/or 5V4 types as a start, either straight shouldered or bottle type as a start. These can be found at reasonable prices and should sound a step above those sent by Decware.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/22/21 at 14:28:03

Thanks Lon. I was a bit surprised as well. I just pulled the rectifier again and this time with flashlight in hand I see damage (burn). This was the original that came with the amp and had plenty of time on it when I replaced it. I will do as you suggest and order a lower-priced one first. The new fuses will have arrived by the time I get a new rectifier. If I have a problem thereafter I will call Sarah.

So, to be clear, a 5U4GB (these letters!) is a drop-in replacement? In addition, some seem to have 4 pins and others 5. Are both ok?

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/22/21 at 14:55:07

Go for a 5 pin. All the 5U4 and 5V4 types are fully compatible with the amp.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/22/21 at 14:59:07

OK, great. Thanks again for the info Lon. I'm learning, albeit slowly, but learning nonetheless.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by JBzen on 11/22/21 at 15:02:53

Melvin,
It seems odd that both rectifiers went bad in short order.
What part of the original looks burnt? Could be a short developed in the power transformer causing errant amperage draw/voltages. I suggest give Steve a call before you put another rectifier in.
John

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/22/21 at 15:49:18

John .. I think you and Lon both have given me good advice in giving Steve a call and I will do so to be prudent.

For clarity, I had a power tube fail about 3 years ago (about 10 months after the SE84UFO arrived). I spoke with Steve about it at the time and ordered a replacement set (I needed spares anyway). When the replacements arrived, without thinking, I replaced all of them. A while later I realized I should have approached that differently. Live and learn. I kept the original rectifier and input tubes and tossed the power tubes. Again, live and learn. So the original rectifier had nearly a year on it and the replacement had approximately 2 years on it when this little hiccup happened. Neither rectifier was new. Should I still be concerned something else is going on?

Oh .. the burnt part is near the bottom where there were some sparks.


Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lin on 11/22/21 at 15:57:09

If you want inexpensive, but good and pretty.

https://nesstone.com/product/sed-5u4g-winged-c-premium-rectifier-tube/

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/22/21 at 16:19:13

Thanks Lin  :)

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Dana on 11/22/21 at 17:14:20

You can use the four pin rectifiers but you'll need an adapter.
I purchased the cheaper one but it was difficult (for me) to determine which were the big pins and which were the smaller.  I was really conserned when I first plugged it in but i believe even on the cheap adapters they only go in one way.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/283166297929?hash=item41ee06cf49:g:4NgAAOSwehZfSfIQ

This one seemed better to me but i haven't tried it yet.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by JBzen on 11/23/21 at 10:22:26

Melvin,
While it is entirely possible that both rectifiers could have been faulty from rough handling, IMO, the area that the sparks are happening is where the connections are made inside the tube. A connection is usally the weakest link in a circuit and any anomaly in a circuit would have a good chance of showing up at the connection. In short, and hope it is wrong, I think you have something else going on besides a group of bad rectifier tubes.
I would take the amp out of the base and look closely at all the components/connections for heat damage or refer it to Steve if the new rectifier/slow blow fuse does not solve the problem.
Good luck.
John

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/23/21 at 15:58:18

Just my two cents: I'm not surprised at all that a fast blow fuse blew when you turned on the amp. There is a (very) brief high current inrush when you turn on the amp and the power supply caps charge up. That is pretty much why slow blow fuses exist.

It is never a bad idea to talk to Steve, but if it were me I would try again with the new rectifier and slow blow fuse before I got him involved. And re: rectifiers if someone were to ask me for a recommendation that you can buy once and most likely forget about for a decade or two I would suggest go here:

https://www.surplussales.com/Tubes-Sock-Acc/0-5/TubesListed-5.html

And get a 5U4WG/5931 milspec rectifier for $35. It isn't the best sounding rectifier in my tube caddy, but it sounds fine and is built like a tank.

One other note about "5 pins" vs "4 pins." The 5 pin tubes are really 8 pin (aka octal) tubes that don't have 3 unneeded pins to save money. They all have the center guide pin. The 4 pin tubes like the 5Z3 and 80 are a different base (UX4) and do need an adapter. IMO the adapters are pretty foolproof, and there is only one way the tube will seat properly but I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to mess with them. There are lots of them on ebay but I always buy adapters from:

xulingmrs

I've always had good luck with them, and I can't say that about other vendors.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/24/21 at 00:56:28

Thanks again gentlemen. I appreciate your thoughts and advice. The slow blow fuses arrived today and hopefully the new rectifiers will arrive soon as well. I'll follow up when appropriate. Happy Thanksgiving to those of you who are in the USA and celebrate. Peace.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by JBzen on 11/25/21 at 12:08:30

From the SE84UFO25 owners manual:

As a mater of practice, any time a fuse blows it is wise to remove the rectifier tube,
replace the fuse, and start up the amplifier again WITHOUT the rectifier tube plugged
in. If the remaining tubes in the amplifier light up, then the amplifier is fine. Turn it off
and install a new rectifier tube and enjoy some music.

John

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/25/21 at 12:11:31



Thanks for adding that John.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/25/21 at 16:54:15

Yes, thanks John. I assume it's the same for the non-25th Anniversary amps? Just making sure because I didn't see that in the manual.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/25/21 at 17:03:43


Quote:
Posted by: Melvin      Posted on: Today at 16:54:15
Yes, thanks John. I assume it's the same for the non-25th Anniversary amps? Just making sure because I didn't see that in the manual.


Yes, it never hurts to start an amp without the rectifier.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/25/21 at 17:18:13

Thank you.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/25/21 at 17:27:49

Just tried it sans rectifier and the good news is the tubes lit up! I'm relieved to say the leaset. Now I just have to wait a few days for the new rectifiers to arrive. One is supposed to arrive on Saturday and the others on Monday or Tuesday. I can't thank you guys enough.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/25/21 at 17:40:08

YAY!

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by JBzen on 11/25/21 at 18:57:46

Good news for sure!

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by JBzen on 11/25/21 at 19:04:33

I was reading up on the SE84UFO25th for an anticipated purchase and found Steve's reference of running the amp without the rectifier for troubleshooting. I did not want to recommend running an amp without tubes installed but it seems that running one without the rectifier causes no harm.

John

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/26/21 at 04:24:08


Quote:
Posted by: JBzen      Posted on: Yesterday at 19:04:33
I was reading up on the SE84UFO25th for an anticipated purchase and found Steve's reference of running the amp without the rectifier for troubleshooting. I did not want to recommend running an amp without tubes installed but it seems that running one without the rectifier causes no harm.


Running the amp without the rectifier effectively turns off the high voltage aka B+ to the plates of the tube. There is a separate, independent low voltage circuit to the cathodes of the tubes that makes them light up. Removing the rectifier has no impact on that circuit so if if the amp working properly the tubes ought to light up. Or conversely if they don't light up there is some kind of problem.

I don't understand how Steve can say "if the tubes light up the amp is fine" because most of the complexity of the amp is in the B+ circuit, and taking out the rectifier effectively turns that off. I don't see how the tubes lighting up confirms there is no problem with the B+. But far be it from me to argue with Steve about how his amp works.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lin on 11/26/21 at 15:37:10

"The  only thing that blows a fuse is the rectifier tube or a power surge. Any time a rectifier tube arcs on start-up you will likely blow a fuse. Eventually the rectifier itself will fail if it is continually arcing on startup and should be replaced.

As a mater of practice, any time a fuse blows it is wise to remove the rectifier....."

Above is part of the paragraph before quote from UFO25 owner's manual by JBzen.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/27/21 at 22:46:09

Update: 3 of the 4 rectifiers arrived today (thought try out a few at different price points). I inserted the Sovtek 5AR4 and .. success! I'll leave this one in for a while before swapping. I can't tell you how happy I am. This has been a good learning experience for me. Thank you all again.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/27/21 at 22:48:15


Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/28/21 at 17:00:10

I've got 10 hours or so on Sovtek 5AR4 so far and I must say it sounds pretty good. I didn't know what to expect for my $21.95. I'll likely try the Winged C 5U4G (thanks Lin) next, followed by the NOS GE 5U4GB and the NOS RCA 5U4G. I think these 4 should at least give me a sense of how swapping the rectifier changes the sound. The RCA intrigues me the most. How much time should I reasonably give to each?

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/29/21 at 16:44:58

Couldn't help but try the NOS RCA. Needs some time to burn but at first blush the change is quite obvious. Improvement across the board (tone, density, soundstage). This is the best my system has sounded.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by CAJames on 11/29/21 at 17:11:54

My experience is rectifiers don't need a lot of burn in time. Seems like by the time my amps are warmed up they sound pretty much the way they are going to sound. Others may have different experiences though. Very different from input or power tubes that often need several hours to settle down and open up.


Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 11/29/21 at 17:30:42

I'm glad you shared that CAJames. I'll be paying attention for sure, slowly but surely adding to my experience. I just love the camaraderie here.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Lon on 11/29/21 at 17:33:32

NOS RCA are among the easiest rectifiers to build a tube compliment around  . . . glad you are trying one out. The 5V4G is worth checking out in time.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/29/22 at 23:26:56

SE84UFO Internal Fuse Replacement:

Hello Everyone. I want to express my gratitude to so many of you who have shared your experiences and knowledge regarding these Zen amps. It has made the relationship between my ZenUFO and me so much more fruitful. I post the following just in case it may be of interest to someone.

These are the original fuses in my SE84UFO (ordered 2/2020 and shipped 5/2020):
All the fuses are 5x20mm Slow Blow
Internal rectifier fuses:
(#1 and #2 FUSE)  T500mAL250V – SCHURTER/glass
(#3 FUSE)  5TT6A125V – Bel Fuse/ceramic
Power Inlet IEC fuse:  T3.15AL250V – SCHURTER/glass

Some time back, I blew two of the three internal rectifier fuses. I had inserted a new Sophia Electric 274B, and upon startup, the transformer was cold, and there was no sound from the amp. All the tubes were lit. There had been no pop or arc. Replacing the Sophia Electric with the original rectifier resulted in the same situation. (Sophia Electric quickly determined their tube was at fault and immediately sent a replacement.) I knew the power IEC fuse could not be blown, but I did not know there existed internal fuses. I thought I had killed the transformer. But, Sarah and Steve quickly responded to solve the problem. Sarah even called a few days later to see if all was well. Steve mentioned that “If any one of the three internal fuses are blown, you will have no sound.”

So, taking it from there, I turned the ZenUFO upside down and removed the bottom plate. In the photo you will see the three fuses. From right to left: #1Fuse; #2Fuse; #3Fuse. #1Fuse was quite obviously damaged, #2Fuse not so obviously. I used a multimeter to try to determine if #3Fuse was blown. I found conflicting information online, but based on the different readings between the blown fuses and the #3Fuse, I decided it may have survived, and it had.

I replaced #1 and #2 fuses with Bussmann Ceramic Fast Blow fuses I found in town. I didn’t replace them with slow blow fuses because I wanted ceramic and I could not find slow blow ceramic in town. I left #3 fuse intact. The whole affair was a lot easier after the fact; I took forever searching videos and postings to see how to take the amp apart. One just has to turn it upside down. It is obvious and simple and only one way to do it… after you have done it. I have not opened it up again, those fast acting fuses are still in there and evidently fine. I might one day open the amp again and upgrade the internal fuses, but searching the low cost price range, I cannot find a viable replacement for the 6amp fuse; I believe using the more prevalent 6.3amp fuse instead would be safe, but I do not really know. However, now that I know that the IEC fuse is 3.15amp, and not specifically 3amp, there are more options available for that replacement.

Thank you, j.

(Sorry no photo; I do not have uploading permissions as this time)



Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Archie on 01/29/22 at 23:59:57

j,

Just make a few nothing posts until you hit the magic number.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:13:58

Archie, thank you.

Ok, I will...

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:15:42

...do that. I will try again to upload a photo in a while, and see if it goes through.
j.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:30:07

SE84UFO Internal Fuse Replacement:

These photos are of the SE84UFO, the internal fuses protecting the amp from a bad rectifier. In my case with a bad rectifier, only the first and second fuses blew inside the amp; the third fuse did not blow. The power inlet IEC fuse did not blow.








Archie, thanks again.
j.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Archie on 01/30/22 at 00:32:38

I think it's 5 posts.  If you use the "Choose File" below then you can do only one photo per post.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Tony on 01/30/22 at 00:36:03

Fascinating topic.  I still don't see pictures.  Are they still coming?


Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:39:33

Ah, I thought it was 2 posts. This should be no. 5.
I am using the Upload function, as opposed to the Browse option.

I will try again after this posts.
j.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:43:57

SE84UFO Internal Fuse Replacement:
There should be 2 photos. But if not, will continue to post.






Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:46:48




Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Archie on 01/30/22 at 00:48:19

I don't use any online file sharing so I use the one at a time "Choose File" below the emojis.  If you do the other than you can post multiple with the Tool Bar insert image thing.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 00:53:27

SE84UFO Internal Fuse Replacement:


" alt="" border="0" />


" alt="" border="0" />

Thanks Archie. I was not selecting the correct 'Embed Codes' link.
j.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Melvin on 01/30/22 at 14:35:49

Thanks for sharing j. The photos are great. I'll feel a lot more comfortable opening mine up if ever the need arises.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by Tony on 01/30/22 at 16:38:35

Exactly.  I had the same response.  Thanks for posting these pictures.

Title: Re: Blown fuse?
Post by j on 01/30/22 at 16:52:06

Thanks Melvin and Tony. Yes, it was really quite funny, the moment I flipped the amp over, it was like a sudden relief; the amp felt so solid I think I finally realized I couldn’t do anything to damage it. I still don’t like pulling out tubes, however…    

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