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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Vinyl >> Technics - suggested KAB mods https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1547730799 Message started by Geno on 01/17/19 at 13:13:17 |
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Title: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/17/19 at 13:13:17 I have just purchased a Technics SL-1210MK5 turntable. I’ve seen mentioned on this forum about KAB mods done to these for best performance. Can anyone provide a list of what I should have done if I send it to them? Thanks, Geno |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Rivieraranch on 01/17/19 at 15:00:22 Everything. You can call Uncle Kev and speak to him about it. Outboard Power, strobe defeater, tonearm rewire, viscous arm damper, plug for the back of the tonearm, plate on back to allow you to use interconnects of your choice. If I left anything out it will be on the website. I bought a unit that was already modified and never looked back. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/17/19 at 16:43:06 I agree, get it all. I had a fully modified Mk2 since 2007 but a year ago I bought the new G. If that's an option for you at all, I highly recommend it over the modified Mk2 even. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/17/19 at 17:06:09 Archie, are you using the G stock? |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/17/19 at 21:54:59 I changed out the stock mat with a Herbie's mat, installed KAB's fluid damper and I use a Michell Rega Clamp. Non-stock power cord and interconnects, of course. I also put the whole thing on an isolation platform. Oh, and I installed latex tubing over the tonearm. One defect with the new G arm is that it seems to have a resonance around 300Hz. I could only pick this up by doing extreme testing but I got rid of it with the tube. KAB uses an internal arm tube but that would require rewiring the arm. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/21/19 at 18:01:41 I’ve been looking into mods that I can do myself. Looks like the fluid damper and new feet I can do. But I have a question about the fluid damper - $165 for what amounts to a plastic tray with fluid in it? Somebody is making a killing off of that! Are the changes in sound significant with this change? |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/21/19 at 19:55:46 It's actually a machined and anodized aluminum tray. Very high quality. It's $150 for the older models. Kevin had to design a slightly new geometry for the GAE/G series which is the $169 model. I put Isonoe feet on my Mk2 which were a big improvement (in build and function, anyway) over the stock feet. If you do get the fluid dampener from KAB, email him for a better shipping rate. His automatic checkout goes way high for small parts. If you trust Steve, then you can trust Kevin. They are similar in their own field. Some of the electrical stuff is also DIY. I installed something that he came up with after my 2007 mods. I don't think the outboard power is DIY but the tonearm rewiring can be depending on skills. I am very fond of the rubber tubing on the arm. If you read his development of this it makes a whole lot of sense. Quote:
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/21/19 at 20:13:49 Thanks so much, Archie. Exactly how is the damper installed? I’ll order one soon. And the new feet, mat and tonearm tube as well. The rest I’ll leave to KAB whenever I send it to them. The power and interconnect cables are hardwired stock, so that will definitely be included. Best, Geno |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/21/19 at 22:33:13 The tray and damping "finger" just clamp on with a set screw each. The only downside to having the damper installed is that it blocks the view of the vertical adjusting ring zero. I made a mark in a different place and just do the math when moving the ring. Are you getting the Herbies mat? One thing I like about the Herbies is that it is slightly sticky and it helps pull dust off of the LP. When the mat gets too dirty, you just take packing tape and pick off the dust. Rewiring the tonearm so you can use better ICs is nice and worthwhile. I also have the strobe cancellation on my Mk2. I mostly liked not having the big red light on all the time (it's blue on the G). The KAB tube will only work for you if you rewire the arm since it fits inside the arm tube. I was able to put tubing on the outside of my G arm though. I think it does the same thing but you might not like the look. There is a trick to getting it over the headshell lock nut and onto the arm. If you go that route, PM me your email and I'll send a photo or two to give you an idea of how I managed it. You'd need the right size tubing which can be had cheaply on ebay. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/21/19 at 23:43:32 I noticed on the KAB website that the tubing was placed on the inside as part of the rewiring process. Since I’m having that done with the upgrades, I’ll not try to put it on the outside, but thank you for the offer to help. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/22/19 at 01:13:43 Exactly, but it can be put outside. I don't mind the aesthetics and one of the problems with TT tonearms is their inherent resonances. Getting rid of them will help sound and detail a lot. I also experimented with silicone tape. It also worked but it was bulky and weighed more. The latex tubing fits like a glove and is 1/32" thick if memory serves. The tubing eliminated a resonance in the G tonearm (which is really pretty good). In my test configuration, there was constructive feedback that went off the chart. While in any normal playback it wouldn't be anywhere near that bad, if it's there at all, it's coloring and damaging sound. There is at least one review of the GR that shows a wide frequency resonance for that tonearm. I think the GR arm is much closer to the Mk5 arm. Once you start chasing down the weak links in your table you might want to get them all. The potential of those tables is amazing. Kevin gives a simple test for resonance. Place the needle on a stationary LP, turn up your volume and lightly tap the arm with a straightened paper clip. You'll more than likely hear it ring. In my case, I got more of a tone around 300Hz that fed-back constructively. Now with the tubing it just goes "thunk." |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/22/19 at 02:33:35 Your insight going forward with this project will be very helpful, Archie. Maybe I should go ahead and get some tubing to put on the outside until I can get it sent to KAB. What type, size and weight do I need? Also, where did you locate it on the arm? |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/22/19 at 02:56:47 Archie, I just sent a PM. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/22/19 at 18:59:17 Geno, here is a description of the tubing I bought on ebay: 3/8" I.D x 1/32" wall <<<< Latex Rubber Tubing Amber Thin Wall. In fact, this is the guy I bought from. I think I bought 2 feet to have some extra to burn. https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-I-D-x-1-32-wall-Latex-Rubber-Tubing-Amber-Thin-Wall/201318733439?hash=item2edf88167f:g:ah0AAOSwrklVFuBS |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Donnie on 01/22/19 at 21:59:11 Wouldn't heat shrink tubing be a little easier to manipulate? |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/22/19 at 23:10:34 The heat shrink is slick but it just doesn't damp well enough. The latex is a PITA to install but it completely damps the arm. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Donnie on 01/22/19 at 23:23:43 Hmmm. How about a constrained layer between 2 pieces of shrink wrap? Or perhaps slitting the surgical rubber and then using a layer of heat shrink over it? I'm all about simple and easy(read lazy). |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/23/19 at 00:46:20 And also about adding weight. I tried silicone tape. Worked but was was heavy and ugly. But it was easier to install. The best option is to use the tube inside the arm as part of a tonearm rewire. The shrink over a slit latex tube might be worth trying though. Shrink doesn't weigh much. Although, with the Technics' S shaped arm tube, the latex might bunch up. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/24/19 at 17:06:56 I thought this place was as good as any to post this link to a description of the newest Technics TT, their SP-10R and Sl-1000R. I'd sure get one if I had the dough! :) https://www.osirisstudio.com/home/2018/1/12/technics-sp-10 And this is pretty cool too. This one I have. :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYT9y6WqMm8 |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/24/19 at 21:43:09 I’ll bet that the new one sounds incredible, but I’d rather have yours. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/24/19 at 21:46:26 By the way, I have an album that skips real bad. Is it still acceptable to tape a nickel on top of the cartridge? I hope so, because it skipped so bad, I had to use 2 nickels😝 |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/25/19 at 00:22:09 Here's a link someone posted over at the Steve Hoffman Forum: https://www.farfetch.com/shopping/men/technics-grey-sl-1200-g-direct-turntable-item-13594961.aspx?fsb=1&storeid=9359&size=17&pid=googleadwords_int&af_channel=Search&c=871228742&af_c_id=871228742&af_siteid=&af_keywords=pla-295558609182&af_adset_id=43514616883&af_ad_id=204345266809&is_retargeting=true&shopping=yes&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4aXiBRCRARIsAMBZGz-gb7CvjaW-vu_MGBA2XAQANjL2n4x9VJTQB5RbaHTJfQ0OozsybUsaAiTjEALw_wcB With the 10% off for signing up for their newsletter the price for a G is $2750! I got a good deal on mine last year at $3600. I'm throwing temptation in your way! ;D |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/25/19 at 01:16:40 Man. That is no doubt a great deal. I’m afraid that I’ll have to be happy with what I have. The extra that I’ll soon spend on KAB upgrades will have to suffice in the analog department. Oh, and eventual mods to my ZP3 :) |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 02/03/19 at 16:38:23 Adam, Do you know anything about the KAB Ortofon plug in cartridges? No headshell or wires to connect. The cartridge just plugs straight into the tonearm. They are made specifically for Technics 1200 tables. Just wondering how they compare to a more traditional cart? |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 02/03/19 at 18:37:02 I have his Concord with both the 30 and 40 styluses. they are outstanding and the only reason I moved away from it was that I went to MC carts. The Concord is the same as the OM line and according to Kevin, the OM40 is considered equal or superior to the Black, which BTW, can also be got in a fixed configuration. They, as you point out, just plug in -- no alignment needed. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 02/03/19 at 21:46:13 Alignment can be such a pain in the ass, I may end up with one of them. Especially now that you tell me how you feel about them. I love simplicity. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 02/03/19 at 23:37:09 Do you have the plastic alignment tool/gauge that comes with the 1200 TTs? It's simple and effective. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 02/04/19 at 00:47:27 Yes. The one for overhang? That’s takes care of front to back, but then you have to get it to line up using the protractor. It should be simple, but not for the simple-minded🤓 |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 02/04/19 at 01:09:07 It does both. I just line up with the end of the gage and center the stylus on the front arrow. I've read a lot of debate about this vs other protractors and methods but most seem to agree that Technics optimised setup for their arms with this jig. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 02/04/19 at 01:19:00 Oh. Ok. I’ll put the jig back on and check it both ways to see how close I am. Thanks! Geno |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 03/21/19 at 00:53:37 Archie, Got my TT back from KAB today. While it was being modded, I sent my ZP3 back to Steve for the 25th mods also. Gosh does it sound good! I’m a happy boy!!! |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 03/30/19 at 00:40:42 Archie, I ended up with the Ortofon Concorde STY30 on my turntable. It has a recommended tracking force range of 1.25 to 1.75. In your experience, did you find a setting that you preferred? Also, was the 40 a big step up from the 30? Thanks, Geno |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Dartman5095 on 08/11/19 at 13:21:51 I would agree with the statement of getting it all. I would put the rewired tone arm at the top of the list though. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by chapsjon on 01/08/21 at 00:33:16 I know this thread is pretty old. Hoping I can still get some advice. If the tonearm rewire is the top priority, what does it deliver? I have done no mods on my SL-1200MK3D and am quite pleased. Maybe I just don't know any better? What more can I expect with upgrades? Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/08/21 at 01:04:54 I had the arm rewire in my MK2 before I received it so I can't say sonically but I think it gives you the option of using better interconnects. Isn't the stock 1200 supplied with hardwired interconnects? Have a look at the KAB site if you haven't already done so. Kevin writes about each mod. One ironic thing is that he says the tin plated wires are no good and yet, Technics used tin plated wires in the upgraded G series. Also, when the arm is rewired, a rubber tube can be inserted which deadens the arm and gets rid of resonances. This is worthwhile alone. The simplest mod might be the tonearm damper. I've had that on both my MK2 and G TTs. Again, read what Kevin says about it. He also posts links to reviews. You can also give him a call. He's always been generous with his time in the past and you'll learn a lot! But beware, you might end up convinced that even more mods are better. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/08/21 at 01:07:14 I see where Geno asked me a question almost 2 years ago that I never answered! The answer is that the 40 stylus did not give me more but going to it pushed me into MC carts which did. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Rivieraranch on 01/08/21 at 01:20:03 I would just send your Technics to Uncle Kev and have him do as much as your budget will allow. I have a KAB modified table and do not want dor anything else. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by chapsjon on 01/08/21 at 01:49:46 That's a good suggestion. I was going to ask for before and after comparison, but I see you bought your table already modded. Thank you all for the quick responses. I will leave Japan to head back to the States in 6 months, so probably wait until then to send in table, but just trying to think through what might improve my system. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/08/21 at 02:18:44 I don't know what KAB mods are costing but another option is to get a new 1200GR. My impression is that they are more like a modified regular 1200. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by chapsjon on 01/08/21 at 02:51:30 That's also a consideration, but according to this review might cost more without same return: https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/technics-sl-1200gr-sl-1210gr Reviewer says "Also worth considering is that, despite the GR’s value for money, it’s possible to get a secondhand Technics model and upgrade it with an external PSU, improved tonearm and various other mods to get it to a standard that’s in some ways even better – and for less money. Sure, that’s all more hassle, but swapping the tonearm does mean you can choose one that might synergise better with your chosen cartridge. Sonically, however, you won’t go far wrong with the SL-1200GR/SL-1210GR, and the improved motor makes it fundamentally better than the old models." All in all it seems clear a GR is better than stock sl-1200, but once upgraded it sounds like original might hold the edge, other than new motor. From what Kevin says on KAB, motor wasn't weakness so I'm not sure. I'll price out upgrades for myself and then decide. Since I already own the sl-1200, it seems upgrades would be cheaper. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/08/21 at 17:10:48 You might be right. When the 1200 was still available I bought mine fully upgraded with a cart from KAB for between $1400 and $1500 in 2007. I eventually added Isonoe footers. I think the tonearm is fine if you damp it with both an inner tube and the viscous damping. KAB has a demonstration of how the arm rings before but is completely dead after the inner tube. I've tried lots of things and the rubber tube works wonders (outer, in my case). I've seen a similar demonstration on the Ortofon site for some damping material they have. I think that with just arm damping and great footers you'd be most of the way there. On my 1200G I have their very good footers plus the whole thing sits on an isolation platform. I don't think you can ever go too far with TT vibration/resonance mitigation. If you want to upgrade and forget it, go for the 1200G. Now that's a battleship of a TT! But even with the G I put rubber tubing on the arm to get rid of a ~300Hz spike and I installed KAB viscous arm damping. I also use a Herbies mat and peripheral and center clamps. There seems to be no end. :) I read through that review and his main complaint seems to be a lack of resolution which I believe can be helped significantly with the rubber arm tube as a damper. In reviews of the G they found a spike around 300Hz (which I confirmed on mine) but for the GR there were several spikes across the spectrum. A better headshell won't solve that IMO. I don't think any arm will be free from some resonance somewhere. I suspect that people perceive some arms as better because the arm's spike(s) are more pleasing to their ears or they get small enough to not dominate. I think if you change the 1200 arm you have a good chance of loosing the VTA. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Rivieraranch on 01/08/21 at 20:31:10 Luckily I bought my KAB Modified 1200 used from an Audiogon listing. This was probably 10 years ago, right before the 1200 was discontinued. Mine has the outboard power, RCAs on back, strobe disabler and silicone viscous fluid damper for the arm. I am unsure if the tonearm was rewired. My table serves me extremely well. Vinyl is not my main source so for me. So I have no desire to tweak my table further. The best course of action is to obtain a good used 1200 send it to Uncle Kev. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/08/21 at 21:04:14 If it has the RCAs on the back then the arm was rewired. Kevin used to use Cardas wires but later he went to a litz wire with cotton covers -- I think. It's been awhile since I've been on his site. I bet you have the Cardas. He started putting the inner rubber tubing inside well after I had mine done. One thing I really liked was that when he did mine he was drilling and tapping the spindle for a screw down clamp. Honestly, I didn't hear a big change when I went to the 1200G. I still think the whole motor "cogging" issue is made up. No one mentioned it until Technics "fixed" it. I will say, the G platter is a work of art. I thought my MK2 platter was dead but compared to the G platter it rings like a bell. Hence the 1/4" thick mat. On a different note, now that I have the Degritter ultrasonic cleaner, I really appreciate the 1200's built-in dust cover. My "dirty" LPs are almost surface dirt/dust free so I only have to clean deep in the grooves. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Rivieraranch on 01/08/21 at 23:05:04 I thought you play with the dust cover up. Otherwise don’t you create resonances by leaving it down during play? |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/09/21 at 00:42:56 I've tried up, off, down and down with a heavy beanbag on it and I can't hear any difference. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Geno on 01/09/21 at 02:14:43 Chapsjon, I can’t find my receipt, but seems like all the mods ran about $1000 a year or so ago. Since you already have the table, just let Kevin work his magic. Archie, I love the sound of the Pro 40 cart, and how it just pops in place with no need for alignment. That said, I’ve never heard a MC. Would love to be able to hear yours. If it’s that much better, then it must be quite something. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/09/21 at 02:46:24 I am going to sell my brand new (except less than 20 hrs break-in) Ortofon Cadenza Blue cart. I haven't figured out the price but it will be way below retail, if you are tempted. The Cadenza Blue is a fantastic cart but just not quite the Jubilee. It uses a Fritz Gyger profile diamond on a ruby cantilever with silver windings. You'd need a SUT too. It's a big commitment! https://www.ortofon.com/mc-cadenza-blue-p-488-n-1579 |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by chapsjon on 01/09/21 at 08:35:48 Tons of great information. I really appreciate the time you all are putting into advising me. Since I already own the SL-1200, I will almost certainly go with upgrades from Kevin. I will try to call first and get confirmation that this will meet my desires, but since I already think the SL-1200 is pretty fantastic, I am sure I will pleased with upgrades. I agree with focus on resonance/ vibration mitigation and am sure that's where I'll see biggest improvements. I am glad to hear that tonearm rewire and damping is likely better investment than entirely new tonearm. As mentioned, easy VTA adjustment is a huge benefit of the SL-1200 and something I appreciate/ would not be willing to lose. Also appreciate the thoughts on motor. I suppose they could have improved on original, but wow and flutter are already extremely low. We're probably talking about imperceptible differences. Thanks again for all feedback. Hopefully others will benefit from this discussion as well, Jon. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Rivieraranch on 01/09/21 at 12:22:25 I might draw fire from this, but I think that putting a different tonearm on a Technics 1200 is just stupid. Might as well go with another table. The Technics tonearm allows up and down adjustment, which many other tables do not allow. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by chapsjon on 01/10/21 at 00:01:28 I totally agree that easy and precise VTA is a killer feature. I've had tables with no VTA, had to use shims, which in a messy way to adjust VTA in my opinion because there is very limited adjustment and you can't really "purely" adjust the height as the "yoke" never moves. It's also imprecise as it relies on having the right thickness of shims and trying them in differing configurations until you get "close enough." I've also had the kind of tonearm that's adjustable, but it's simply a screw that you loosen and slide tonearm up or down then tighten. This is extremely imprecise, probably couldn't repeat settings exactly if I had to. Also is seems that it would allow quite a bit of vibration and resonance as the tonearm is set in a shaft with enough tolerance to slide up and down with one single screw holding it in place. In comparison to either of those methods (used on some expensive arms), the SL-1200 VTA method is repeatedly precise to include using VTA measurements from community for certain carts, very secure as arm is locked in to machined winding of VTA apparatus and can be further locked by mechanism to reduce vibration, can be changed while playing a record to fine tune by ear (completely out of the question with other two methods), and is extremely simple/ easy to do. No tools required. This really is such a ground breaking and awesome feature that the vinyl community should demand it of every tonearm. I'll bet many tonearm manufacturers couldn't implement in house and would have to farm out to camera company or overseas factory because of the precise machining involved. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/10/21 at 00:17:43 Agree! I use Ortofon HSs with my carts since the Technics HSs don't have flat and even mounting surfaces which I need. Unfortunately, the Ortofon HS is built much higher than the Technics so I had to use a 3/16" wood shim that I made just to level the arm at "0" VTA. I don't know if other non Technics HSs have this problem as well. I've never been able to hear a difference when I've played with the VTA on the fly. Some are very sensitive to SRA misalignment, I guess I'm not. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by chapsjon on 01/10/21 at 00:34:12 I've played with VTA on the fly primarily with two carts. The first is a Denon DL-311LC MC that didn't always want to stay in the groove. I played with VTA see see if that would help, and fine tuned on the fly. Although I think this was primarily a compliance issue, fine tuning VTA allowed me to keep needle in the groove. With this experiment I realized the ease of adjusting VTA on the fly, and so also tried it with my Nag MM cart. I started at prescribed height, then fine tuned while playing. I intentionally went up and down from baseline in order to see if I could hear the difference. While I wouldn't say the sound differences were huge, I could detect small changes that I might have never noticed if I hadn't played with this at all. The further I got from prescribed height in either direction, the less "right" it sounded, like the cart was "thinner" sounding. I ended up just a fraction (like .25 mm) higher than prescribed setting. So while my methods weren't scientific, and may have been prejudiced by the record I had on at the time, etc..., the fact I was able to conduct this experiment at all is an uncommon experience among tonearms. |
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Title: Re: Technics - suggested KAB mods Post by Archie on 01/10/21 at 00:47:19 There is a long thread at the Steve Hoffman Forum on SRA (stylus rake angle). I have a cart that is many degrees out of spec and trying to figure out how to correct this was a challenge. I ended up shimming since the 1200 VTA adjustment wasn't enough. The guys over there say they can dial in correct SRA by ear! That's sure not me. One thing the 1200 could use is an azimuth adjustment. The HS that came with my 1200G has it but I can't use that HS as I mentioned before. |
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