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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl SPEAKER FORUMS >> DECWARE CORNER HORN >> Corner Horn Build (#2) https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1542462462 Message started by dank on 11/17/18 at 13:47:42 |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Donnie on 11/17/18 at 14:04:29 Cool! |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/18/18 at 16:06:53 It is good to see such a clear step by step approach to your project. There is no doubt about horns having an appeal that is like no other. People tend to love them or not. I think that there is no equal in the bass region. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/19/18 at 17:22:15 I might have missed it, but what adhesive do you recommend for this build? I tend toward Gorilla glue to fill in gaps, and make a tight bond. Also, is there a picture of your table saw? I am betting it has a decent out feed table and fence. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Archie on 11/19/18 at 19:13:17 Those steep beveled angles are impressive. How are you pulling them off? |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Donnie on 11/19/18 at 23:26:29 I'm a big fan of Titebond 2 glue. Then silicone and a ice cube to fill anything that needs filled. I used to use bondo, but I usually ended up making a big hard freeform sculpture. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by dank on 11/20/18 at 00:41:36 Donnie By "silicon" do you mean 100% silicon calk? (certainly you don't mean silicon spray). What does the ice cube do? Dan |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Archie on 11/20/18 at 00:41:36 Quote:
Personally, I can't stand the stuff. It doesn't wash out of my pants! ;) I stick with Titebond 1. I have a 12 inch Delta radial arms saw that I almost never use. I need to check if it will do that angle. It's brilliant! |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Donnie on 11/20/18 at 01:14:13 Dan, yes calk. The ice cube helps smooth it out. The silicone doesnt stick to it so your not smearing it around. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/20/18 at 15:27:04 Using Gorilla glue is a new way thinking, that's for sure. Yes, you need to lightly wet one surface, and then when applying the glue to the other surface, I like to make sure it penetrates that surface well. I will even add a small bead of glue after that, so that it can expand enough for any small gaps. Letting it skin over for maybe 30 minutes, the excess can be removed with a glue chisel or Exacto knife. If you do it too soon, the glue might get smeared on the blade, and that is just one more thing to deal with. It is extremely strong. Choice number is one of the newer glues put out by Tite Bond or other manufacturers. They are as strong as Gorilla glue, and easier to use. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by deucekazoo on 11/21/18 at 15:40:02 Nice build, cant wait to see if finished. I never thought about angling the drivers to fit your position, great idea. One little trick I learned when dealing with silicone is Windex the original stuff. Because of the Ammonia it will let you shape the silicone without sticking, so spray the bead down and use your finger to shape it. Once the Windex dries it lets the silicone dry and perfect seems. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/21/18 at 17:54:29 It just occurred to me that if you do angle the drivers as shown, it will change the volume of the horn, and also the angles within the horn. Would it be better to actually angle the driver Mounting, rather than changing the entire panel angle? |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/22/18 at 16:35:58 I just hate painting. If it is not done all at once, there are chances of trouble with texture. God forbid that you have to have a paint matched. Different formula, and yes, some matching is very good. But if anything is different, you will catch it immediately. The list goes on. I did some touch up on my progressing speaker project last night that turned into a larger touch up, and now have to make some sort of decision of what to do next. And the paint is oil based acrylic. I just hate painting. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Donnie on 11/22/18 at 17:26:17 I'd do several coats of paint then color sand it flat. Sanding is sort of Zen for me, I'm weird that way. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/22/18 at 19:41:17 Don't know why it would make a difference, but I don't mind sanding wood. Sanding paint/varnish/lacquer OTOH, seems poisonous. Ironically, it was the wood dust that got me into trouble. That's why I like hand planing best. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Lon on 11/23/18 at 13:04:02 Great work Dan! Glad the sound went to "Wow"! |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/25/18 at 16:34:45 Your build is admirable in quality. It is worth any effort to make it the best that it can be. Paul Klipsch stated that raising his corner horns off of the floor destroyed the lowest octave of bass. Maybe this was an exaggeration, as the horns that I built were on casters, and the bass was still beyond description. just a thought. I have a greater concern that there is a bonnet on your cabinet that will definitely will cause diffraction, and affect dispersion as well. I totally understand the need for a dust bonnet, but one that can be removed during playback. Finally, I would suggest that you go ahead and build out the wall behind the speakers, as this is what completes the horn, and a space behind the horn won't be a good effect. First thought was using concrete board, but sheet rock or even MDF would be better. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Steve Deckert on 11/25/18 at 18:56:41 Wow, Dan's been busy since Decfest !!! I really enjoyed the pictures of the shop! Other than eating and sleeping and bathroom breaks I can't see why any man would want to leave that room! Fantastic build and nice modifications. Equally if not more impressive was seeing two empty clean corners in a shop like that to put the speakers in! I raised my pair up a similar distance in our present listening room and found the same to be true... I like the imaging better when standing up. I've thought about putting the driver in the exact center of the front panel which would put it even a touch lower than when I used to have them on the floor. Also agree that being able to angle the drivers is a big plus! A few suggestions, the wings create cavities when the speakers are pushed up against the corner and those cavities will resonate at a single frequency. This is why in the past I always created a heavy foam gasket to seal the gap between the speaker and the wall. Keeping the air inside from moving in and out of the crack greatly reduces the problem which is a droning sound. That said it would have been SO much easier and SO much better had I just injected the entire cavity (all four of them) with expandable foam. I am pretty sure that a gasket would no longer be needed, but still probably not a bad idea from a horn flare efficiency perspective. Also there is a 45 degree chimney behind the speaker that may be working against you, but I am not sure because both the bottom and top are open and the speaker is 8 inches off the floor. At some frequency that becomes a hemholtz resonator. I would jam it full of fiberglass and see how it compares to the other channel and then make both the same whichever is better. I'm pleased at the results you are already getting! Nothing hits like a corner horn and from an acoustic perspective there is no better place or way to create bass in a room. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/25/18 at 20:22:31 Not sure how I missed the fact that the bonnets are completely removable. Anyway, that is good news to me. A pretty good idea as well from Steve, dealing with the space behind the speaker. I can't think of a cooler set of speakers in a shop or home. Good corners are hard to come by. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by will on 11/29/18 at 17:46:02 I just stumbled across this thread and really enjoyed it. Thanks! BTW, I like the look of the offset driver setup. Nice visual tension, the form complexity following function..... |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 11/29/18 at 19:04:34 Yah, that's ONE type of gorilla glue, and I agree, pretty close to the others mentioned. The one that I am referring to is the original polyurethane Gorilla glue that can be bought in a clear (not tinted) formula. It foams a little bit, but that is good for small gaps. Not a big deal really, as the one you picked is a tough as the one that I mentioned. Your cuts are accurate, and so what you used is perfect for the application. Really glad to see that you put backs on those horns. Makes perfect sense to me. AND, that you are attaching them to the walls! Yes! AND preparing the cavity left, if any as well. High praise from me for doing the WHOLE JOB. And the speaker terminals on top. Good thinking there too. Imagine them on the rear! |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Donnie on 12/01/18 at 18:52:09 I keep eyeballing these drivers, wonder how they would work for your application? https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ps220-8-8-point-source-full-range-neo-driver--295-346 |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by dank on 12/01/18 at 21:17:11 Donnie I guess I forgot to mention when the Dayton 8", PN PS220-8, went in. That's them in the 11-28-2018 pictures, the first pictures taken after I turned the camera's date stamp on. They sounded fine, but not substantially better than any of the others. Of coarse I'll probably have to run them all through again now that the cabinets are fixed properly in the corners as I think that made a big difference. Here's a list of what I've got: 1) Dayton 6.5" PN PS180-8 Fs = 56.5 hz, Qts = .33, Vas = 1 cubic feet 2) Dayton 8" PN PS220-8 Fs = 46.4 hz, Qts = .38, Vas = 3.19 cubic feet 3) Audio Nirvana 6.5 super ferrite Fs = 49 hz, Qts = .21, Vas = 1.16 cubic feet 4) Audio Nirvana 8 super ferrite Fs = 44.6 hz, Qts = .162, Vas = 2.35 cubic feet 5) Audio Nirvana standard 6.5 & 8 Fs = ? hz, Qts = ?, Vas = ? cubic feet 6) HiEnd 8" Fs = 31.5 hz, Qts = .25, Vas = 4.46 cubic feet 7) Tang Band 8" PN W8-2145 Fs = 40 hz, Qts = .44, Vas = 2.39 cubic feet (in other cabs) 8) Fostex FE206EN 8" Fs = 45 hz, Qts = .19, Vas = 2.5 cubic feet (in other cabs) Dan |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Donnie on 12/01/18 at 22:37:27 Dan, I've been eyeballing the 8" Daytons for a transmission line that I build that uses $12 GRS 8" drivers. They might be a nice upgrade. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 12/01/18 at 22:59:24 Dan, Likely you are aware that these are the drivers that Steve modifies for the FRX2. This is a case where I truly believe in a decent break in time. Beyond that, I have like most of what I am hearing in the ZOB open baffle arrangement. FWIW, Steve uses a version of the GIZMO to alter the midrange performance of these drivers. Cool thing is, he added a switch to tailor the sound a bit for those recordings that may need a softer presentation. Also, I have used a set of AN Alnico super 8" drivers, that overall, I liked the bass, but found them to be a just a tad less in the midrange. I went back to the FRX2 and worked out some issues with the bass, utilizing the AN drivers as supportive bass speakers in the ZOB cabinet. I know that we are talking apples and oranges here for cabinet design, but the basic voice of the drivers are what I am trying to convey. Horn loading must put them in a whole new world. I'm envious. There is NOTHING like the bass horn sound. In this case, even more interesting to have the rest of the range augmented as well. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by dank on 12/02/18 at 00:33:17 Donnie PM sent Dan |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by Lon on 12/03/18 at 14:19:34 It may be hard to explain but I do think Synergy is the key. That speaker in that horn assembly in that room configuration just "works" better than others. There may be another speaker that works even better but will you spend your life trying different speakers out? (If it was me, the answer may be 'yes' as I get obsessive about these things, which is one reason I haven't pried the hatch open over this sort of wormhole!) Great looking speakers and enjoy the sound! Great work! |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 12/03/18 at 16:34:20 This has happened countless times in my system. Then after after time, there seems to be a lack of the initial magic. I realize now that I am as big a part of the synergy as what is being played. Even now, with a combination that sounds unbeatable to me, I know what may lie ahead. Of course, that is the fun as much as the magic itself. |
Title: Re: Corner Horn Build (#2) Post by 4krow on 12/10/18 at 00:03:04 Dan, For a second there, I thought that I was looking at an improvement on an Isobaric sub design. But then, I realized that you just like to build stuff. In that environment, you really need good dust protection, as well as keeping out anything else that might affect a driver. |
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