Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/18 at 03:24:53
Another productive week as the more of the first 25 Anniversary amplifiers start to ship! I thought this would be a good place to post your impressions, pics etc., of your new SE84UFO25s!
-Steve
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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl EQUIPMENT FORUMS >> SE84UFO25 >> 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1531362294 Message started by Steve Deckert on 07/12/18 at 03:24:53 |
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Title: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/18 at 03:24:53 Another productive week as the more of the first 25 Anniversary amplifiers start to ship! I thought this would be a good place to post your impressions, pics etc., of your new SE84UFO25s! -Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/12/18 at 06:00:19 GOT IT TODAY! After some challenges with UPS, but they did go the distance and more and got it here. Actually I kind of feel bad for the supervisor that had to deal with me. In fact under the circumstances I give him credit for seeing it through. Anyway... I’ve only had it playing for I’d say 3 hours so this definitely is not a review just my very first impressions. My first complaint (yes I have a complaint): I expected a UFO25 that has an output of 2.3 watts. I got a UFO25 but I don’t think it has 2.3 watts. I know what 2.3 watts sounds like and you can not fool this puppy! By the sound of it it’s got to have 20 watts at least. For someone that has become a 2.3 watt fanatic this is hard to swallow ;). Next: What do I think of the S3HOXRS with this powerhouse. Fabulous. These speakers are just so fast and revealing. More on this at a later time. How does it compare with the UFO2??? Well the UFO25 has only 3 hours on it and... yes it’s different and better BUT... I am even more impressed with the UFO2 because of the performance that it gives at it’s price point comparatively speaking. Don’t get the impression that I don’t think that the UFO25 is not significantly different. It is. (Boy this is hard to put into words) Let’s just say that I think that the UFO2 offers great performance at its price point and may be all that some will want and need. So what does the UFO25 offer, in comparison? My first impression is REFINMENT! To get this level of refinement you would have to spend one heck of a lot more money and even then I’m not sure you could equal it. This is after 3 hours. Based on how it began to open up within the three hours, I’d say it will get much better yet. Build quality: One word and only one word - SUPERB! I only got the VR Tubes as I have quite an inventory of tubes that includes red tipped tubes. I wanted some sort of a reference point so I tried to keep the same tube set that was in my UFO2. (Sophia 274B Aqua, SV83, E88CC). Whether or not this is the set that I will keep in my UFO25 will be determined at a much later time. I did get some other VR tubes, for fun. As a result of Lon’s comments I picked up a pair of CEI OA3’s and these will stay in during the break in period. Cheers! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Lon on 07/12/18 at 14:00:05 That's awesome! I'm not surprised the amp sounds great off the bat (Jupiters!) and it will have a few fuzzy periods I bet and then sound jaw-droppingly good. I spent an hour tweaking the sound of my second system which has a Taboo Mk IV driving Trapezium speakers at the moment. I'm going to have to start saving up. .. . I think eventually Steve will get around to "25th Anniversarying" the Taboo Mk IV and I know it will be an amazing amp and I'll want one! That system could benefit from a ZROCK2 as well. Man, it never ends. I was going to try to swing a pair of DNA2 speakers. But further experimenting with gain adjustments with the ZTPRE/ZBIT/ZROCK2/CSP3-25/25th Monoblocks has me really satisfied with the way the HR-1s are acting and not encountering distortion--and my wife seems to have all the volume she needs as well. Wow. . . I can't believe the sound I'm getting. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Acetone on 07/12/18 at 17:17:22 Hey Joman, does this mean that you'll need to recalculate your $ per watt formula? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/12/18 at 19:08:47 I was up until 1:30 am. Woke up at 5:30 am. Mixed some Blowmeum in my coffee so that I could make it through the day. Tonight is another listening session, not a good time to be doing higher math... |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/14/18 at 03:42:30 I didn’t get as much listening done yesterday as I wanted to but I did put another 3 or 4 hours in today. I replaced the OD3 with a Sylvania OC3. This along with the CEI OA3 will stay in for the rest of the burn in. So, 6 hours later and the UFO25 is beginning to open up. The gulf between it and the UFO2 is definitely widening. I still have a soft spot for the UFO2 and probably always will, but the UFO25 is clearly in Reference League territory and there’s no going back. I’ve had to re position the speakers which sound like different speakers in a good way. I find that it’s easier to anticipate the adjustments to make from recording to recording on volume, gain structure or on my ZR2, more of a fine tuning as as necessary. I absolutely love the dual gain controls on the UFO25. I’m going to reserve extensive comment on the bass but will say that it is tight, textured and enveloping even at low volume. As far as mids and highs, let’s just say everything is sounding very real and I’m still struck by the superb build quality. I’m going to get at the math in three or four weeks, Ace, far to soon now. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Acetone on 07/14/18 at 15:01:26 Joman, Happy listening to you! Don't worry about the math as I have no idea how you'd factor in the "Wow!!!-factor". |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/14/18 at 17:10:38 A couple of doses of Blowmeum should help... always up for a challenge |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Showme on 07/15/18 at 16:08:44 Tell us a little about your system. What is your source? Do you have a CSP3 in the chain? My amp is well down the list to be built so I'm just trying to decide if I need to buy a CSP3 or not. I do already own a ZR2. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/17/18 at 18:10:19 Hey Showme, My system is almost all Decware including the cables. I’m using an OPPO BDP-103D as a universal player. The rest: ZDSD, CSP3,ZR2,UFO25, S3HOXRS, Silver Ref. IC’s, Decware speaker cables and power cords. My acquisition of the system was gradual. I had to get used to the low power ideology, now there’s no going back. I would test the ideology with each acquisition and as I proved it to myself I would take the next step. By keeping it all Decware I was able to better compare notes with Steve, who was very helpful along the way. I have an Otari MX5050 which I have yet to implement but first the UFO25 has to burn in. Is the CSP3 necessary? Good question. I bought it because my wife insisted that I get headphones (love that woman!) and soon learned to appreciate what it allowed me to do which was to have additional control over gain/density structure. Some have commented that it’s effect is subtle. Yes and no, sometimes it’s the subtleties that can make a huge difference. I added the ZR2 and even with it in the chain I will still keep the CSP3. No going back now. Will I recommended it? I hesitate to recommend specific components because it’s not the one component that’s the magic bullet, and only you can determine what you will be happy with. My goal doesn’t allow for much compromise. It’s the combination and putting that combination together requires focus and patience. You have to be open to a continual learning curve. I had to rethink long held ideas, such as less is more - not always. Usually one thinks that you cannot achieve expansive sound with small drivers, then came the S3HOXRS with those d***n 4” drivers and totally decimated that idea and they were’nt even ‘tactful’ about it, just stomped that idea until it was dust, it was painful to ‘watch/hear’ so to speak. And then there’s the budget - always a challenge. If you’re into low power the one recommendation I will make if the budget allows is the UFO25. No brainer! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Showme on 07/17/18 at 19:10:44 Thanks, Joman. I appreciate your comments. I currently have a UFO2 and the ZR2 playing through Randy's Betsy's. I have ordered a UFO25 that I should receive in August. I thought the CSP3-25 might be my next addition but that will have to wait until next year. I might add speaker cables this year though. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by will on 07/17/18 at 19:16:43 Showme, Edit: Oops, wrote this before noticing your response to Joman saying you were already considering the CSP3 25....hopefully useful to you or others anyway. Though I have not heard Steve's mods, I suspect there is a clear distinction between the CSP3 and the CSP3 w/25 mods. I have been working on my CSP3 and Torii MKIV progressively, starting with power supply, volume pots and connectors, then more seriously into wires and resistors. They are still the same amps, retaining thier personality and flavor, but much, much better for ultimate complex detail in space and musicality...balanced, very resolving, more headroom/macro dynamics, faster, tighter/cleaner/quieter... but not hard! My conservative in analysis, science trained wife, said our sound had improved from these modifications 2-2.5 times about 6 months ago, and it has matured and refined in major ways since then. Also important, when this all started I was getting what I considered truly great sound with stock amps highly tuned. But each refinement success took it to places I did not really imagine to be quite possible, and this continues today. Not easy to keep musical balance, with a number parts and combinations that did not work, and with plateaus along the way that were difficult to move through, once solved, a new world of beauty opened. Each part that worked made all the others better, as well as making source, speakers, tubes and cables better and more flexible. From this experience I have little doubt Steve's CSP3 mods have done beautiful things...Though the stock CSP3 can be really, really good with the right tubes, cables, vibration treatment, etc, I imagine the modded one to be on another level. Just thinking it might be worth a talk with Steve about the differences if you get serious about adding a CSP3. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Showme on 07/17/18 at 21:42:28 Thank you, Will. I'm amazed and your ability to be able to understand and then make the changes dictated to your equipment. Pretty awesome ability. Thanks for your input. I will talk to Steve when the time comes. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/17/18 at 22:00:58 Will makes a good point about the CSP3 vs the CSP3-25. Right now the result that I’m getting with the CSP3 in the mix and the UFO-25 is nothing short of stunning. So once the UFO25 burns in I’ll be talking to Steve. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Showme on 07/18/18 at 00:42:01 When I "bite" for the CPS-3 it will be for the 25th version. Might has well go big or go home. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Lonely Raven on 07/19/18 at 20:46:22 Quote:
That is such a wonderfully true statement! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by lazb on 07/20/18 at 17:38:15 I could not agree more! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by chengdigger on 07/20/18 at 20:09:28 Sweet Christmas! I just got my new ufo25 powered up for the first time. I swapped it in place of my torii Jr powering a pair of spatial audio m3 triode masters. Obviously, I had to compensate volume on my csp3, but the ufo25 bangs it out on these speakers, producing bass never present with the torii Jr. Amazing. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by will on 07/20/18 at 20:37:51 Great news chengdigger! Impressive indeed! From Showme: "Thank you, Will. I'm amazed and your ability to be able to understand and then make the changes dictated to your equipment. Pretty awesome ability." You are welcome Showme. I have to say though, my amp knowledge and abilities seem fairly rudimentary, persistence and creative need gradually driving what learning I have! I had dabbled in DIY for quite a while, but openning my precious Decware MKIII Torii and MG944s for cap changes, I was reticent. So I talked with Steve and Bob, and read more on different caps, resistors, solders, and solder method. Finally it was fun, with nice solder joints, and I heard real improvements. Also, from studying the amp interior, I realized I could learn and work with what Steve had created, not making the wheel, but refining it. Meanwhile, ongoing cable making was quite encouraging for deeper learning and practice. For my pre-production HR-1s I asked Bob to put the caps and resistors outside so I could easily experiment. Upgrading the primary cap, I got a number of faster, small value bypass caps seeking a more exciting and complete sound, but also to learn the character of different caps relatively inexpensively. Exploring audio resistors too, I realized how powerful bypass caps and different resistors can be. Then vyokhong's thread on modifying the ZMA! Jazzed, health challenges made going in my amps hard for several years. Occasional research and collecting parts was fun and useful though. Recovering, I went in, trying one thing at a time... Copper coupling caps in my Torii MKIV, volume pots in the CSP3 and MKIV, both with notable sonic benefits....and my 1st power supply bypass foray (using caps I had from HR-1 experiments) just blew me away...all revealed great potential for refinements within Steve's excellent designs. This was the summer/fall of 2016, and the stimulus for many, many ongoing experiments that continue today. It is challenging though....tight places, technique, finding synergistic parts... But probably most critical is relatively complete discernment of the sound complex, hopefully clarifying what works and what does not, while avoiding inadvertently falling off balance. Loads of fun for me, but compared to what Steve's mods cost, lots of hours and parts later the sound is amazing, but the cost benefit from my DIY??? That is hard to say! I bet your CSP3-25 will be amazing! ;) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Steve Deckert on 07/21/18 at 05:06:47 Tonight I am listening to a customer's soon to ship Zen Triode Anniversary amplifier with less than 48 hours on it. The song is Chompy's Paradise by Badbadnotgood (seriously) and there is just something about this amplifier that makes music lucid. This song is nothing special, I've heard it dozens of times over the years, yea it's nice, even really good, but right now at 10:50 P.M. I am hearing it as if I was tapped into the mind of God and there was no stereo. The Anniversary Zen Triode never stops surprising me, and I've been listening to it as you know, since November of 2017. If you take all the incredible things everyone has said about Decware amplifiers in their reviews over the years, it was already pretty clear there wasn't much better to be had, and now, this is just smoking everything. Today I got a phone call from a 25th Anniversary Zen Triode customer who recently took delivery of his new amplifiers. He had very expensive 2A3 monoblocks with all the bells and whistles including the fancy mundorf caps and Western Electric Tubes, the and in the first 24 hours his new Zen Triode SE84UFO25's have already bested them. Says he hasn't slept in two days! It will be exiting to see the feedback as these amps start to find their homes and get warmed up!!! On a reflective note, I still can't believe I have been sitting on this jewel for 25 years without every realizing its potential until now. It's just so damn good... it makes me genuinely wonder if it's untouchable... the Holy Grail. I mean you all know how long I've been doing this, and that I can hear. Literally every time I turn one of these amplifiers on it teaches me something. It's like a Zen Buda or something,... you get enlightened by it. Life is about adventure and experience. If you think the experience of owning a small yacht in a fancy slip, or a race car, or even a plane is going to get you off harder than this amplifier, you are sorely mistaken. Save yourself some money. Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Steve Deckert on 07/21/18 at 05:35:12 Every now and then you make an amplifier that when you hear it you're convinced something special must have happened to it, and you want to keep it for yourself, and build the customer another one...yes, that is the urge. I have never done it, but the point is that you are so compelled by the sound that you become scared that it is a fluke, and can not be repeated. This is the feeling I get when I listen to these amps, and tonight an hour later, the feeling is overwhelming. That means, Jeff, that the transparent glass resistors sound no better than the opaque glass resistors that went out in the first 25 amps. In fact if I were held at gunpoint with 2 seconds to decide before the trigger is pulled, I would have to say the opaque were the better sounding. This amplifier is sooo sick.... it takes you so deep into the sound during evening listening sessions, that you begin to warp time, perception and reality... A true space ship. Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Brian on 07/21/18 at 05:58:11 Wonderful! Steve said: "Every now and then you make an amplifier that when you hear it you're convinced something special must have happened to it, and you want to keep it for yourself, and build the customer another one." I have often wondered about that. I realize it is not exactly to the point you are making, but my cousin is a professional artist making art knives and swords for the men who collect such things. I once asked him if he ever regretted letting go of one of his creations, he said he had no attachment to them whatever. I was quite surprised. I do not think I could part with something I had poured myself into and had it come out within a few inches of perfect. You, Steve, and my cousin and the other artists who give to your customers (albeit in exchange for money, but even so) your finest accomplishments have a generosity which is not the least of your talents. Brian |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by JOMAN on 07/21/18 at 12:30:23 I have to retract a statement I made in one of my earlier posts regarding coming up with new math to try to quantify the UFO25 experience. At that time I thought that I would need “a couple of doses of Blowmeum” to assist in the process. After having the UFO25 for close to two weeks I can categorically state that Blowmeum is no longer needed. To the chagrin of the suppliers of Blowmeum I will predict that with the introduction of the UFO25 the market for Blowmeum is dead! 8-) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Steve Deckert on 07/22/18 at 05:00:27 Bendoverite will also become obsolete. Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Post by Stefan on 07/26/18 at 07:32:30 Got my 25th amp now. Like others said, what a beauty! Not only does it look amazing it sounds like that as well. It only has 10hrs on it now, but it already sounds way better than my nice Torii IV! I hope Steve will have some zen moments in the future to get that one closer to the level of the SE84UFO25.... It has a great soundstage, is very neutral, the highs are already better than the Torii, base is not quite at the level of the Torii yet, but close and it still needs to burn in. Thank you Steve for producing such a master piece and selling it for a price that is still somewhat affordable! I've bought Tannoy Cheviot speakers for this new amp, and they are amazing. They are a bit pricey, but they sound fantastic, you can put them close to the wall (what I needed to do in my room), you can change the cut over frequency and the high level in the front panel, have great build quality and come even with their own wax for the wood! The little ufo25 can power them to levels way beyond my normal listening level. They have a great soundstage and are very life like and for me a perfect fit with the ufo25. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by richp4003 on 07/30/18 at 20:15:09 Stefan, Nice review.. its very impressive the 25th is running the Tannoys so well, given they are 91db sensitive (which isnt terrible, but not really high efficiency either) Im getting Decware-curious and watching this thread closely! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Stefan on 07/31/18 at 06:26:05 Thanks Rich, yes, if you would have me guess the Watt of the ufo25 after listening to the Tannoy with the Torii and the ufo25 I would have guessed it has 10-15W. Maybe Steve seriously underrates the power output of it with 2.3 W ;) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by lazb on 08/02/18 at 22:31:34 Watts? Hook one up to a pair of DNA2 speakers and the wattage will be of NO CONCERN whatsoever! The amp cares not what number is attached to it, it just performs! I never cease to be amazed. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by richp4003 on 08/03/18 at 19:24:58 That says a lot Stefan you are getting such good performance from the Tannoys. (The Tannoys, whch seem to be impossible to find/demo in New England) Are you running a preamp? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Stefan on 08/03/18 at 21:41:16 No, currently I'm running it directly from the T+A DAC RCAs which have a max of 2.5V, but I have a ZBIT on order so that I can feed it with 5V. I can get the amp to clip close to max output of the DAC. Here in CA UpscaleAudio has them and they sell them for a good price, I got mine for under $6k. I actually went there to listen to Klipsch LaScala, and while they were setting up those they recommended to listen to the Tannoy and I found the Tannoy sound better, no color in the mids and more bass by maintaining the speed of the Klipsch. And they are a lot smaller than the Klipsch which helps too :) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by StanleyG on 08/15/18 at 08:13:57 Hi all! New here, been lurking (and enjoying) the forums for a coupla months since receiving The Letter (announcing the SE84UFO25). Now that mine (#006) is beginning to sound broken-in I wanted to announce that my mind is utterly blown. After 40-plus years of divergent audio experimentation I am in a very happy place indeed. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Bottlehead on 08/16/18 at 04:58:15 Thanks for weighing in, Stanley! Someday I'm going to take the SE84UFO25 plunge myself. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by lazb on 08/16/18 at 17:09:21 JUMP!!! The longer you wait the more you will kick yourself for the procrastination!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Bottlehead on 08/17/18 at 02:46:19 Yeah, but I'm up to my a#$hole in alligators right at this point. Don't have time to listen, anyway. But soon. Maybe by the time I'm ready, the CSP3-25 top plate and base will match the amp. THAT would be cool. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 08/17/18 at 15:55:15 An email I got recently: Quote:
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 08/20/18 at 17:52:42 Quote:
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by lazb on 08/20/18 at 19:55:30 Robert, the Holy Grail path is greatly simplified by proceeding along the Decware route! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 08/23/18 at 16:51:12 UFO25 (ser# 22). Should arrive today! I cannot imagine something sounding more awesome than my current SE84-CKC (which will be used in 2nd system). I am now frothing with an... ti... ci... pa...tion...!!! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 08/23/18 at 20:04:13 Ace... get a bib, the frothing turns into salivating once you get over the shock. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 08/23/18 at 20:19:27 Awesome! Keep us posted. . . after you are done being speechless.:D |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 08/27/18 at 16:26:49 20+ hours on the UFO25. I am using my own tubes. 60' GZ32 Mullard, Reflecktor 6P15P-EB 70's, 0A3 RCA 50's, OD3a 60's Mullard, 7DJ8 60's Lorenz. Amp is coming along nicely since first listen Aug 23 -thurs. Bass is deep, clear and very easy to pick out the individual notes in the mix. Much bigger and better than my SE84-CKC. Drums sometimes startle me when they kick in hard. I find that I do not have to turn up the Zrock2 quite as much as before. All instruments well separated in the mix with great width, or depth, depending on the recording. Overall my whole room sounds fuller...sound fills the air nicely side to side and top to bottom...in a word - Energized! Wow! Peter Gabriel - "shock the monkey LP" has never sounded so immense, so deep...beautiful and powerful. Musical ambiance, reverb decays etc are nice, very nice...making me smile. I know the amp has a way to go to season properly but right now it has far surpassed my CKC Zen! OK enough rambling. I need to tear myself away and go to the gym. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 08/27/18 at 16:31:34 You're in for a treat as this amp seasons! Glad it is sounding so good right now. Thanks for sharing your impressions and keep them coming. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 08/29/18 at 16:40:29 Ace, glad to hear (no pun intended) that your enjoying your UFO25, I’m thrilled with mine. I noticed that you are using a Lorenz PCC88. I’m using a Valvo D getter Hamburg mfg., from from the 50’s in conjunction with a Sylvania USM OC3. One has to be careful with Valvo tubes as not many are from the Hamburg plant and the D getters are getting to be crazy expensive and very hard to get. I have three... a couple of spares. I’ve tried a variety of tubes in the driver position and always ended up with German mfg., tubes. Usually Valvo or Seimens because the Tele’s are also crazy expensive. What I like about them is that with the right tube complement they give a good balance of everything, tone, texture, detail, dynamics, sound stage and the 3-d effect. I don’t like to compromise in any of those aspects. I was thinking of trying a Lorenz PCC88 as well but I’m now so reluctant to change anything in the UFO25 set up. Can you give some additional input on the Lorenz? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 08/30/18 at 01:47:47 Joman, The Lorenz I have (3pcs) white stencil Sel-Lorenz, a BWB with 952 below it and a bird of prey bracketing the bwb/952 from above and sides, with a Large L just to the right side. 068 in small letters off to the left of the Lorenz stencil- short gray plates - Halo - 0 getter. These were the one of the best sounding tubes I had in the SE84-CKC so am starting with them in the UFO25. Got them around March on Ebay. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 08/30/18 at 03:21:15 Thanks Ace. Do they have a nice 3-d effect? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 08/30/18 at 16:15:31 Yes, they do throw a nice sound - tonal balance depth, width, 3D. - My room is well treated and I listen near field so most anything I put in the ZP3 or Zen amp throws a good sound. Fine tuning/Refinement/magic is usually the thing a better tube will impart. I find inputs and rectifiers are most important in the chain! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 08/30/18 at 20:24:40 Thanks, I’ll have to give then a try |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 08/31/18 at 18:24:55 Joman, I could send you one of mine. If you like it we could perhaps work out a trade, or fair price. Let me know! Kinda try before you buy. I'm keeping a look out for a mullard 60's 12AX7 for 1st spot on the ZP3. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Vooraphile on 09/06/18 at 16:41:46 Got it warm for 4hrs.. at the moment I would not conclude any yet. Sacd and vinly communicated.. and both seem to like each other.. Im still smilling and waiting for it.. How do I attach photo here.? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by dvl on 09/07/18 at 20:36:07 i'm primarily a vinyl guy. Can't help it i just am, and therefore am looking for impressions of this amazing amp with a vinyl rig, specifically one with a low output cartridge. i had a regular two watt Zen for awhile and absolutely loved it. It made digital listenable for me. While i had that amp i listened to more digital than i have in quite some time. However, my Torii Jr. was better with vinyl. It just had more punch and drive and that made a big difference with amplifying the tiny signal coming from a low output cartridge. While i had both amps, i fantasized about combining the 20 watts of speed and transparency of the Jr. with the 2.3 watts of realism of the Zen into one amp. From what i have been reading, it sounds like Steve may have just done that! An opportunity to upgrade part of my vinyl chain came along that i could not pass up. But i had to sell something to afford it, so i sold the Zen. i have missed it, i'm still quite satisfied with my Jr., but i miss that little amp. With the Anniversary edition, i'm wondering if it could be the amp i've been looking for. So, if anyone is using one with a low output cartridge, i would love to hear your impressions. Thanks, David |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 09/08/18 at 01:49:26 If your picture is less than 1 megabyte in size (preferably 500K or smaller) you should be able to use the message editor to upload it directly to the forum. Otherwise, just upload it somewhere on the internet and then post the URL to the image by inserting it in between the image tags which look like this: |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by dvl on 09/21/18 at 21:31:36 Two days before the hurricane hit, i left North Carolina for the midwest to see family, visit a great brewery, and on my way back home, stop in Peoria for a quick listening session. i didn't have much time, but i wanted to hear the anniversary amp and the DNA 2. That amp is extraordinary, and hearing it in Steve's room was wonderful. At one point i looked at Steve and said, "i don't know how to describe what i'm hearing." Sure you could talk about detail, soundstage, bass, all the audiophile terms, but none of that gets to what the amp does. i can tell you what it did to me. Before i left, i thanked Steve and said, "i don't know how to think about this." i really didn't. It got inside me, it made me feel certain ways that stayed with me. The more i listened, the better it got and i didn't really listen that long. i thought about it all the way back to North Carolina. i woke up the next day thinking about it. This paragraph of one of Steve's posts gets it better than anything he's written or anything i can come up with. "Listening to this amplifier is not the typical mainstream audiophile experience. You can't play it without becoming engaged with it. That means that despite your best efforts, background music is just a fantasy. In fact this is where it begins it's witchcraft. You try to play it in the background while you work or relax and like it or not you become captivated. It controls you, not the other way around. This is the Yin and Yang of Zen. We have crossed the neutral zone with this amplifier and for those of you who chase the holy audio grail, be careful what you wish for. While it is effectively a drug, the only side effect is obsession. I believe sound like this has healing properties and spending a little too much time with it would only have the consequence of living longer." It is a drug, and after only a short time, obsession followed me for two days. Sitting here typing i feel what i felt listening to that amp. It hasn't gone away. And i agree, i think it is restorative to listen to, i think it does have healing properties. He is not exaggerating. i suspect if i would have stayed for a couple of hours, what i felt would have just deepened. Listening to this amp did not fit my audiophile auditioning mindset. It doesn't fit into that. It's different. i've been at this for almost 30 years. i haven't heard an amp do this. Is it for everybody? Probably not. It is just 2 watts. But if i was a digital only person, no vinyl, no tape, i would buy this amp and never look back. i would come back to it every morning, sit in my listening chair, and not get a damn thing done all day. And even though i love vinyl and low output cartridges, i still might get it. i look forward to reading reactions from people who attend Decfest. You will hear that amp in that room, just like i did, so it will be really interesting for me to read what others experienced. Please don't hesitate to share! By the way, the DNA 2s were beautiful in person. David |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JazztoGo on 09/29/18 at 14:54:07 Hello there I thought i would post some of my thoughts on the new 25th annviersy amp. I got it the beginning of August this year and once I put it in it never left. I stream spotify from my laptop to the decware zdsd dac into the zrock and then into the amp to my Omega ALnico HO towers. I have the CSP3 preamp but after sometime I just unhooked as I did not feel it needed it. Maybe someday i will get the mod for it but not in the cards anytime soon. The clarity and power that i get form only two watts blew my mind. I had the torii MKIV for years as my main amp and somehow the this new amp made that amp sound slow which is weird but before i never felt it was slow. I think its just a different amp flavor. The bass is great out of this amp though having the zrock2 definitely helps alot for streaming spotify. I dont have any room treatments but when I pull out my speakers from the wall i almost get a 3d sound that i never got before. I could image if I did room treatments. Form top to bottom the sound is just clear and tight. The side benefit is I can run this all day during the summer hot days unlike the torii MKIV in middle of summer it was just too hot to use in my small office lol, though winters it was perfect haha. Anyways this amp just rocks! friends are still amazed wwhen they come over to listen and then telling them its just too watts sorry for the rambling but just wanted to mention how much i am enjoying this amp. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by dvl on 09/29/18 at 16:02:23 JazztoGO wrote, "...when I pull out my speakers from the wall I almost get a 3d sound that i never got before." One of the things that stuck with me after hearing this amp was the depth of the soundstage. Steve had the DNA2s well into the room so that helped, but damn, that 3d imaging is amazing with that little amp. My Jr. sounds a little flat and 2d in comparison. Very jealous you get to hear that amp every day! David |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 09/29/18 at 20:29:17 Just put a Telefunken PCC189 in my UFO25 and in the CSP3 a Valvo D getter PCC88 in the driver position. This puts a whole new meaning to soundstage depth and 3D. The music and vocals are so detailed and dynamic, alive and yet like velvet or at times majestic. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 09/29/18 at 21:59:52 It's amazing how these amps show every tube change, etc. I rolled an Amperex 12AU7 back into the ZROCK2 taking the 6085 back out. The 6085 is perfect in the Taboo Mk IV and almost perfect in the ZROCK2 but lacks just a hair of lower frequency presence. And I went from vintage SV83 output tubes in the Monoblocks to Steve's red-tipped stock military style. . . . I like them both, miss the SV83 "ease" a bit and may move back to those. . . . I also went from an Arcturus Type 80 globe rectifier to the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B in the Taboo Mk IV, and that was an improvement; I now have the Aqua in the Monoblocks, the CSP3-25 and the Taboo Mk IV. Seems my "anchor" for the sound. Really enjoying the overall sound and trying to just listen to my material without listening to the system but the amps just shine so strongly and they still are a novel element of the system for me that draw attention to themselves. . . . |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 09/29/18 at 22:13:05 JazztoGo, rather than apologizing needlessly for the "rambling," thanks go to you for sharing your impressions and keep them coming. These amps give us a lot to "chew on" and write about. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 10/01/18 at 19:46:15 JazztoGo, I would like to second Lon’s about being apologetic and add to that to my previous comments about “a whole new meaning on soundstage and 3D”. I won’t detail the all tube rolling that I’ve done as it would distract from the point which is what the UFO25 is capable of. In my previous post I stated that I tried a Telefunken PCC189 and what the UFO25 did with it. As it’s been burning in the experience has progressed to a level that I’ve tried to achieve in over 40 years with many itenerations of components and to date have not succeeded to my satisfaction... until now. The typical audiophile babble won’t cut it so perhaps you’ll be able to relate to the following... if you are familiar with the visual portrayal of the Holodeck where in an individual can immerse themselves in a virtual reality environment... then that describes what level I’m at with the UFO25 and associated components. The whole room has become a sonic “holodeck”, I kid you not! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 10/02/18 at 00:38:05 Joman, I had to chuckle when I saw your "holodeck" comment. Haven't heard that term for quite some time (Nor, watched Startrek for that matter). But, I do agree with your comments on tubes and the amazing sound of this UFO25! In fact I just sat down after several hours submersed on the holodeck.....insert "smile" here! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 10/02/18 at 03:58:13 Hey Ace, Never really thought about it at the time but it is a variation on a theme... UFO25...Alien Abduction Video...The Dimensional Space Ship that needed a Sonodeck and kidnapped it from Steve??? I admit it’s kind of cheesy so I think that we need to come up with something better than the above to add to the “UFO25” designation. Perhaps the “marketing team” among us can chime in here.... |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by fmanheck on 12/20/18 at 03:53:21 Hello everyone. :) This is my first post and my first night running the SE84UFO25. I figure I would keep up the trend with first impressions. I was using a Rachel and thought I was somewhat familiar with Decware sound (or is that non-sound). Still cold the UFO exhibited a very coherent musical picture. No bloat that accompanies some tube amps but of course not Decware. My speakers are about 105DB efficient so I was not really worried about not having enough power. An aside - I was considering ordering a second UFO25 without having heard the first during the Black Friday sale but... I knew I would have the needed power. Who knows maybe next Black Friday ;) Back to first impressions. As I continued to listen, the amp loosened up a bit. Imaging seemed to get more solid. About 2 hours in and all of a sudden bass became audibly more deep. full and articulate. A very pleasant and unexpected surprise. I was looking to hear extra finesse and heard a nice improvement in the nether regions. This is actually one of my systems strong suits so that was really nice. I listened about another hour with familiar music and it sounded very nice. A very solid soundstage with great front to back imaging. Very Musical. The amp is real pretty with those glowing tubes and the build quality is of course beyond reproach. Thanks Steve. I am excited to hear how things change as it breaks in . I'll post some system photos soon but my wife has made me put equipment on the TV stand to make room for the Christmas tree. I used to have a dedicated sound room but last year I was told to put in a TV. Now I have to accommodate a tree. Thank God I have great music to keep me on the straight and narrow. ;D |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 12/20/18 at 11:18:19 Welcome, and thanks for posting your first impressions. As you know, this amp will sound better day by day. Lots of great listening ahead1 I share your distress about system changes being imposed upon you. Hopefully you can get the system well situated soon. What source(s) are you using if I may ask? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by fmanheck on 12/20/18 at 11:56:34 Hi Lon and all. I have read that SE84UFO25 will keep sounding better and better. What I am hearing now is a great place to begin already. I had been eyeing Decware for years and when I got the super efficient speakers I knew now was the time. My source is the Phasure NOS G3 DAC and its accompanying computer; the MACH III both connected with very interesting cabling that gives you the ability to float the cable ground with many possible combinations. XXhighend playback software (also designed by Peter S. of Phasure) is on the computer and music resides on a file server that also controls MACH III. Music files are loaded into RAM and sent to the NOS G3 DAC. XXhighend.nl Honestly it is so good that I left vinyl. I am considering Reel to Reel but my hobby now consists of listening to music and I like it that way. My system is quite resolving and even with a nights listening I can tell the SE84UFO is a fantastic amp. I'll try to get some photos up there soon. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 12/20/18 at 13:00:36 Sounds like a great setup. Listening to music is the goal, so relax and let that amp season! Keep us informed, thanks for joining the discussions. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by MrDerrick on 12/22/18 at 19:10:29 Fmanheck, My SE84UFO25 is on the build list. I run Avantgarde Duo Omega horns. What is the impedance of your horn set up? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by fmanheck on 12/31/18 at 00:13:59 Hi MrDerrek the impedance on the midhorns is 8ohms and the Jamboree bass bins is 2 ohms. Hope this helps |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by fmanheck on 01/04/19 at 03:20:04 Tonight I had friends over for a listening session. As the 25th Anniversary Zen has been breaking in, it has getting more and open and relaxed. Detail retrieval is just phenomenal. Not because of quantity (of which there is plenty) but because of the absolutely natural and musical way it is woven into the soundstage presentation. The amp is magical. The only concern I have been having is I think I have a need for more power. Not in most cases, but there are times when I listen louder than normal to music with substantial bass output and very strong dynamics. In these cases the amp seems to loose liquidity and becomes a bit opaque. One of my friends brought over a First Watt SIT-3. This is about 18wpc solid state Class A Single Ended amp with no feedback. Created by Nelson Pass it is probably in the top tier of best SS amps made. I have heard it in my friend's system and it sounds great. It is a great amp. I was excited to hear how more power added to my system would sound. I switched out the Decware and put in the SIT-3 amp in. The difference was shocking. Now there was plenty of power you could tell this amp drove the speakers easily. Bass was more powerful and pronounced at higher volumes. Folks there is no going back. Despite the higher power it was immediately noticeable how the magic was no longer there. It just did not sound real anymore. I think you would need the SE84UFO25 to hear this type of staggering difference. The First Watt is a very good amp by most any standard but once you hear UFO25 there is no going back. This was a unanimous opinion for all of us, even my friend who left a bit saddened. So I will be talking with Steve soon about ordering another SE84UFO25. I guess I should have gone for it back in November. 2 SE84UFO25 = Twice the magic. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 01/04/19 at 03:53:43 fmanheck, I appreciate your feedback! Especially gratifying when you consider how far out I stuck my neck on the chopping block during my descriptions of it's sound during it's development. Posts like yours and really everyones so far, have proven that it's not just me, and it is real, and it is repeatable. What more could I possibly ask for! Please keep up up to date as things season and continue to burn-in. If you want to post pictures, this site makes it too easy not to do! https://imgbb.com Thanks again for your update! Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 01/29/19 at 19:42:47 it's been several months since I've weighed in on my SE84UFO25. But, I have a good excuse. "I've been sucked into the vortex of beautiful music it provides and, have not made any adjustments (tube rolling etc.) for several months as well." I'm so happy I made this purchase....LP's, CD's it doesn't matter...it's all awesome! It took approx 250 to 300 hrs burn in for the UFO25 to hit it's stride and sonic consistency. Having a dedicated (acoustically treated) listening room does help as well. So, I used to read at least 15 hrs a week....that time has been replaced with longer listening sessions filled with music I am well acquainted with, as well as a lot of new music. This amp has me expanding my musical tastes and enjoying the ride immensely!! Gotta go listen now. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by jslateiv on 01/31/19 at 19:49:44 Well, IT finally arrived,.. after a missed delivery day yesterday due to the extreme cold it showed up this morning. Had to let it sit for 4 hours and come to room temp, but that gave me plenty of time to eye it up and down, inside and out,... Truly a beautiful piece of machinery. A masterpiece for sure. Soldering on the inside expertly done, wood work flawless, finish.. exquisite. It really is a work of art. Finally got it powered up about an hour ago. Playing in the background while I try to work. Any worries I had about SPLs I could get out of my Zu's have been putt to bed. Easily plays louder than I listen without even the OA3's blinking! Sounds good cold and off the bat. Yeah I could easily nitpick but that would be fair at this point. I will say that cold it has more life and presence than the sand amp I have been listening to in the interim just needs to smooth out a bit and I know it will. More to come, I know I need some hours for it to really open up, but wanted to post some very early, initial impressions. Excellent job Steve. This one's a keeper for sure!! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 01/31/19 at 20:05:48 Great news John! At last! Your journey begins. In 300 hours or so of listening you'll be just floored! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by jslateiv on 01/31/19 at 20:25:29 Thanks Lon, I'll get there quick! Working from home has it's advantages when it comes to putting hours on gear! Am contemplating letting her run through the night. Wouldn't/don't normally do that but sometimes with brand new stuff will just to get some extra hours in quick. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 01/31/19 at 21:53:09 Yes, we're both lucky in that we can get hours on our equipment pretty quickly. I've left mine on for 72 hours or more before, with signal one through . . . never had an issue. UPS bailed on me. . . after waiting all day to be here to sign for the package they sent me a "delayed" message at 4 p.m. Sheesh. I don't know if I can be here all tomorrow, hope I can be here when it comes. UPS is never my first choice of shipper. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 01/31/19 at 23:18:38 Oh UPS will handle it just fine and Decware always packs wonderfully. . . I just wanted to have it all tomorrow to listen to. As it is it will probably come near the end of the day, and during the evenings and weekend I don't get to listen much at all. . . so that's what disappoints me, that it will arrive and not be put into use right away. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 02/01/19 at 02:42:22 Quote:
"So, I used to read at least 15 hrs a week....that time has been replaced with longer listening sessions filled with music I am well acquainted with, as well as a lot of new music" I think that pretty much nails it don't you? Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Jeff of Arabica on 02/01/19 at 03:17:37 Decware has pretty much ended my television watching. I used to wind down at night with some random programming of news and episodes of whatever network series was worth a damn. That quickly ended once I got my Decware system installed and dialed-in. I now end every day with at least 2-3 hours of listening at night to de-compress from all the chaos I endure on a daily basis. Aside from it being enjoyable (obviously), it is therapeutic. This ritual puts me in the right frame of mind before bedtime. The bottom line is, I could not endure the hours of weekly listening that I do if my system was not musical, entertaining, AND non-fatiguing! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by jslateiv on 02/01/19 at 15:06:39 I'm listening right now as I work from an adjacent room. The stereo is always on and streaming either Jazz24 or a Classical station out of Portland that I like. I keep the volume low enough to be able to answer calls without distraction. The sound has always been lacking in this type situation,.. other room/low volume,.. as one would expect, just not a lot of life to it,.. However with the 25th, the low level volume is just plain alive, it's amazing how much better it sounds at a low level compared to my other amps, and this on a 96kbs stream! Just stunning,... I left the amp playing all night. At this point it has been on approx. 24hrs straight and has really smoothed out ALOT in that time period! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/11/19 at 15:00:49 OK, here are my impressions of the 25th Anniversary amp so far. I doubt that my thoughts will change much as the amp seasons, but you never know. My tube compliment ended up being A03s for output regulators, Sophia 274B for rectifier, Steve’s output tubes, OD3W input tube regulator and Mullard input tube (sorry, I don’t remember what it is). I am not sure I can add much to what has already been said. I can’t recall anything that I disagree with. It’s a great amp and definitely adds to my listening pleasure. I’ll try to frame this up as how it works as a music producing system from start to end and focus on one attribute at a time to keep my ADHD in check. Black background – this is easily the quietest amp I have ever heard. Inky black is the term that comes to mind. This I believe lays the groundwork for the whole sound of the amp. The background is so quiet, it allows the music to come through easily, without breaking a sweat. Very enjoyable at low volumes. Speed – with the background so quiet, it allows you to hear how fast the amp is. This speed manifests itself mostly in the lower notes where you hear the leading edge of the note and that sucks your attention in. I found myself not only hearing separation of bass drum and bass, but thinking about how the bass drum was damped to produce the specific sound they were after. There is no bloat to notes at all. They are what they are. I am hoping that the amp loosens up more as I feel that the soundstage is a little constricted right now. Bass-monster. This is clearly the best bass I have heard in my room. The attributes above allow you to hear the individual bass notes better than my other amps. Following intricate, detailed bass lines is something I enjoy and this amp allows you to hear them fairly easily. Pop. This amp has a lot of pop to it. Snares, bass drums. Lots of thwack going on. Amazing with just the 2 watts but it has more pop than Rachael at 6 and Torri at 25. Loud. This amp is louder than I ever need it to be. I kept cranking up the volume until finally I got it to clip, but it was louder than I would ever listen, even on a multi-drink night. My room is 12.5’ by 16.5’ so its not huge and my speakers are 92-94db efficient. Seductive. Clearly, the more you listen to this amp, the more you want to listen to it. All the things mentioned above suck you in. I had no problem at all listening for 5 hours yesterday. With the quiet nature of the amp, the detail and pop that come through, etc., it engages you long term. Very nice. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 02/11/19 at 15:11:47 Wonderful that you are already experiencing all of this, the extra hours Steve put on it are paying off. It will get better. After 300 hours or so I was surprised to find a new level, and don't hesitate to experiment with any "gain riding" you can. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by bokat57 on 02/15/19 at 16:39:28 Hi I would like to add my impressions of The SE84UFO25 : I have had the amp for 8 days now and it is the most amazing amp ever. When I fired it up for the first time and turned up the volume a little I knew I had something special. I look forward all day to come home and listen to the music this amp so magically wraps me in I know the sound will continue to improve as the weeks turn to months Thanks Bob |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JD on 02/15/19 at 16:56:48 Hey Guys, Would love to hear if you are listening to the amp with a pre-amp or not? Also would like to know if it is mostly digital or analog listening (sources etc. if they aren't in your profile). I'd love to get as many details as possible so when I do pull the trigger I've got plenty of ammunition. I've been listening to a LTA ultralinear amp lately and love it but might have to pick one of these up as well. I'd like to keep and upgrade my csp2+ to the 25th anniversary mods and not have to purchase another preamp if possible. Thanks in advance. JD |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/15/19 at 17:04:05 I have my TEAC UD503 as a pre of sorts and use the remote for changing volume. I also have a ZBIT that I have at about 2:00 and then the 25th pots wide open. I have become a fan of balanced outputs from the DAC into the ZBIT. I get a density that I enjoy. These settings mentioned above are a holdover from where I ran Rachael after experimenting quite a bit. I will likely adjust now for the 25th. I did notice that Steve ran the 25th wide open at Zenfest so maybe I will ultimately end up back there. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/15/19 at 17:07:38 I also have a question about what to expect from the amp during seasoning. Soundstage size and sort of a contextual soundstage mapping are the only things I have not heard in my amp that I heard at the Fest if that makes any sense. I was able to work at home yesterday and I felt like it is beginning to open up more and got a taste of this contextual mapping that I heard in E. Peoria. Any feedback is appreciated. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 02/15/19 at 17:50:11 Tom, I'm unable to set up my system to maximize soundstage etc. but I do get a very satisfying level of that as is, and during the first month the amp swung back and forth on occasion in this aspect and at the end it was clearly the best in this aspect of any that I've ever heard. That you are getting that glimpse I think means you'll be where you want to be holographically in the near future. Justin, I've been using my 25th Anniversary SE84UFO3 amps with my ZTPRE and my CSP3-25 both separately and both at the same time. I have a CSP2+ as well that I used heavily in the past, but haven't used with these amps yet. (As you know Justin that is at the mother ship now for the mod upgrade). Because the output from my DSD is so wimpy due to its (excellent-sounding) design I too use the ZBIT to feed the preamps. I was for a long time a "no preamp needed" guy and especially when I first started using the ZBIT I didn't think I'd benefit from one. . . but when I got the ZTPRE that ended that definitively. The ZTPRE is amazing, as is the 25th Anniversary CSP3. There's a body to the imaging and a solidity to presence and stage that I won't now be without. Your CSP2+ will be very good with the 25th Anniversary Amp with or without the upgrades. I'm sure the upgrades will be amazing so considering them as you are is a good idea. As I mentioned in PM I'll update you when I have the CSP2+ back with mods. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/15/19 at 17:56:15 Than Lon. I have moved off the 5 hours at a shot breakin and now I'm listening however long I want. I have a three day weekend so I'll be spending some time listening. I do know the longer its on, the better it sounds. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 02/15/19 at 18:01:08 Bob, so glad you are enjoying your amp! Keep on playing it and your enjoyment will deepen. . . . . |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Jeff of Arabica on 02/15/19 at 18:05:11 Pal, Have you tried adjusting your speaker positions with the new 25th amp? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/15/19 at 18:06:08 No, but that very thought occurred to me last night and I intend to do so this weekened. Great suggestion. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by jslateiv on 02/15/19 at 19:10:25 Hey Pal, I can say that my speaker position moved considerably once I really got a feel for the 25th-A and it had some hours on it. I'm currently running with about 200hr's on the amp but I found that at around ~80 hrs the speaker adjustments were warranted and easily dialed-in. Once adjusted everything locked into place again with the added benefit and sonic improvement that the 25th def. brings! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/15/19 at 19:14:44 Thanks. That's about where I am now in hours with the time Steve put in. My gut says I am too toed in and I need to spread the soundstage. I sometimes lose depth when I have experimented with this before but I'll give it a try. I am also mentally comparing a listening experience with horn speakers (DNA2) with Open Baffles. There is a completely different soundstage between these two speaker styles. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by will on 02/16/19 at 00:26:25 Hey Pal, Sounds fun. I am agreeing with thoughts on burnin and speaker placement. This amp sounds tricky, being so good in design and parts choices to begin with, it sounds like it is extra good "out of the box." By all reports, with reduced smearing, masking, congestion...and related, enhanced balance, space, speed, clarity, transparency, etc...sounds like Steve's best effort to date. But it still uses new parts, many similar to other Decware amps. So no matter how good the sound is new, the parts will get notably better! Looking at effects pre-burnin...rigidity, subtle distortions, thickness, congestion, we wait for faster and deeper articulation and spacious complexity. Related, I think there is an additional balancing act between increased density, and fine detail and spacial information that can resolve with burnin. Anecdotally, as I carefully increased speed and density in my amps, while attempting to hold spectral balance, all aspects seem interrelated, creating balancing acts. A slightly fuller, note-centric density, could off-balance fine detail and ambient information. Though the fine detail and space were there, if density was a bit strong, or tending toward thickish, it sounded like the denser attributes could dominate, and also bleed into the spacial areas of the presentation, negatively effecting ambient/harmonic information that can contribute to better soundstage. In effect, like rigidity pre-burnin, if a change was compelling enough to "ride it out," I found subtle speaker adjustments could adjust spacial information, and soundstage width and depth. So even starting off as good as the 25th, relatively, the usual new parts rigidity, smearing, distortions, congestion are there... And as parts refine, the signal becomes less damaged, more complete, more complex, rigidity resolving into more fine detail and spaciousness. Another similarity in my explorations, one day I took out all the very small bypass caps from my Torii seeking an optimal foundation from combinations of 0.1 power supply bypasses mainly. Though in this case the 0.1s were all burned in, once sorted out, by bypassing the 0.1s with (the right) 0.022s, and 0.01s or 0.0047s, bypassing the bypasses increased speed, space and complexity notably. Density remained (or increased), but with more complexity and space, soundstage depth, width and saturation got better. Burnin refinement seems very similar to me. As the parts wake up, especially after ±300 hours, ups and downs mostly resolved, the parts becoming more supple, we hear more. Finer information coming with more space for the notes to rise and fall more clearly from, speed and spacial information are enhanced, enhancing the soundstage. This is how it sounds to me at this point of my listening anyway. So I am agreeing with burnin thoughts folks have made. Also, to best utilize a given state of sound, checking speaker placement periodically along the way, adjusting the room and system interactions, and therefore the soundstage. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/16/19 at 13:42:07 Great thoughts Will. Your guidance in implementing the bypasses (.01 and .0022) certainly raised the overall SQ of my Rachael. I am looking forward to further breakin as this amp is already a listening gem. Last night I opened up the stance of speakers by just 1” and it had a pretty big impact on soundstage width without sacrificing too much depth. The funny thing is I probably experimented with 15 different positions of those speakers pre-25th and figured I had that dialed in. It just goes to show you when you introduce a new piece in the chain, everything needs to be re-considered. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by will on 02/16/19 at 19:05:34 Nice! It is amazing how system/rooms are sort of living things...each part contributing to and changing the whole. I bet your amp is going to get a fair bit of play this weekend! Exciting! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/21/19 at 18:05:56 I am around 100 hours give or take (including the hours Steve put on the amp). It is seasoning nicely. Overall timbre has improved which is making the amp even more engaging. Lately an album I keep coming back to is Daft Punk, Random Access Memories. Electronic may not be everyone's cup of tea but there is a lot of stuff going on so its an excellent album to evaluate gear. The 25th really handles all that activity really well. Staccato base lines, complicated drumming, low electronic bass, high instrument count, etc. Exceptional separation of all this going on at the same time. Because of this, more is coming through and I am hearing new stuff. Like breaths taken by the singer doing the vocorder on certain tracks. Paul Simon's Graceland is an album I like, but I have found over the years its hard to fully appreciate unless your system is up to snuff. The 25th allows the mastery of this recording to come through. Great thematic instrument selection on this album and really well produced. Emmylou Harris, Wrecking Ball can be harsh mashup of incoherent, overlapping instruments. Not so on the 25th. My Rachael gave me a glimpse of the production value of this album, but the 25th really brings it home. Great instrument separation and ease of vocals leads to a better connection with the music. So, I guess my point is that as the 25th seasons, it continues to raise the listening pleasure and value of your music library. I will be interested in revisiting these albums in another 100 hours or so. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/23/19 at 17:14:15 After reading about people using speakers of various sensitivity levels I decided to try the lowest efficiency speakers I have - some Silverline Minuets rated at 88db. With the DAC at 0db and the zibit at 2:00 and the 25th pegged I was able to achieve a very acceptable listening level without clipping. I did use the high bias setting but with more adjustment the low setting could be used as well. My room is 12.5 X 16.5 so not big. I turned on the Crowns and ran the subs to fill in the low end but it was actually pleasant listening without them on. The minuets are mini monitors with only a 3.5” woofer. My iPhone was measuring low 80s. Not that reliable, but still. Interesting. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend people with 88db speakers pair them with the 25th but this little experiment gives you an idea of the amp’s range. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Archie on 02/23/19 at 18:38:30 I'm curious as what clipping sounds like. I can't say for sure that I've even clipped my ZMA. Steve says that when the meters really "dance" that clipping is either happening or very close. Solid state clipping scares me to death so maybe I've never pushed my ZMA hard enough. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 02/23/19 at 18:53:00 The sound breaks up and has a static sound. On the 25th you can see it visually on the meters and the power regulation tubes in the back flicker a little. With my OBs I really have to crank it up to get it to clip. But they are around 94db efficient. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Archie on 02/24/19 at 00:59:45 Thanks. I don't think I've heard that. I may need to crank things up a notch! :D |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by jslateiv on 02/25/19 at 13:17:41 On my Zu's (and I really have to push it),.. I notice that the low end (~30-80hz) starts to become fuzzy first. This is especially noticeable on Acoustic / folk (or other) type music where clear separation of the instruments excels and there is a prominent bass/low end. I can start to hear this degradation at the onset of the rear Rgs. just starting to move/fluctuate in brightness, the meters are moving +/- 2ma (4ma swing). In more congested/dense type recordings/mastering's, it is somewhat masked and less noticeable at the onset of clipping. The upper end (shimmer/shine) where the 'space' of everything seems to come into play is the 2nd to collapse, at this point the rear Regs, would be relatively noticibly starting to fluctuate in brightness and honestly the it isn't worth listening to at this point. Still amazes me though just how loud and dense this little 2.8/w amp is! I never really ever come close to clipping during normal listening, but ~98db sens. speakers will get ya that :) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by lazb on 02/25/19 at 14:46:29 I agree with the "amazing" part on this amp! It gets me all the volume I ever want with my DNA2 speakers. About 94dB sensitivity according to Steve. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 03/20/19 at 18:17:58 Amp #48 arrived safely 7 days ago,very well packed,someone once mentioned the mars rover?I knew someone was moving in by the luggage that arrived a week before.The wood is spectacular!I swear i looked into the final bag,stuck my nose in and time travelled back 32 years when i picked up my lp-12..this particular wood is fluted like my lp-12,and all these little marks like dimples, i'm looking at them together now,spectacular cabinet work!that's ZEN! So after 3 days of letting it all get settled,i go up to the speaker room and pick up one of mr shaws little pp's,one under each arm,have owned just about every version of ls35a,Kan,1,2….this amp is what these speakers crave,the imaging is now world class period.I'm loading up a room 10x12 and liquid rover is looking over at the 275mk6 and starting to wink. ;D Yup,this is liquid…stunning sound….now for some reference dulcets. Thank you all at Decware…whoever got the wtf,..haha. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 03/20/19 at 19:51:00 Congrats Tubecan! Slowly but surely the 25th Anniversary Experience is sweeping the world! Glad you are getting to enjoy the amp, they offer a tremendous audio lift. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 03/20/19 at 20:09:53 Congrats If you like the amp now, you will like it a lot more in a month or so. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 03/21/19 at 00:03:15 I'm listening now with the speakers as headphones…about 2 feet away and the sound is so clear,the resolution is off the map,bottom so tight that i'm thinking this is correct..this amp is crazy. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 03/21/19 at 13:54:37 I'm listening to piano..piano!..when have i ever listened to piano?!!! i had no idea pianos are this big,the keyboard is the size of the room…when your heads bouncing to "piano" you know there's something good going on…now the suns coming up and i get to stare at the different shades of this wood cabinetry,around 1pm this amp turns red and has the most incredible grain….83db speakers and i could live with this forever,watts shmatts…this amp gets loud with total control of these plastic overweight drivers. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 03/21/19 at 15:51:24 Tubecan, I've had my UFO25 for nearly 7 months now (wow, time has flown). I can tell you that you'd better strap in because it gets better/bigger/badder as the amp seasons. Roll in some good NOS tubes, (If you rec'd amp with Steve's tubes you'll be fine), and enjoy the journey! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 03/25/19 at 19:51:03 I have the stock tubes,the japanese matsusonic have extended highs,could live alone with them,sound good,actually they pulled off the sitting in a piano ducking hammers trick very convincingly..the russia,russia,russian one has great bass,…i picked up 2 amperex for 40 and seems the first 2-3 hours they sound dull,then the midrange opens up and that's that.The OD3 seems to really change the sound with swapping out..the raytheon OD3A supplied sounds lively-more musical?..probably imagining.You can really hear the difference with speaker cable changes..huge,was always on the fence about that…fresh scrapings when swapping?. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by will on 03/26/19 at 18:51:03 Quote:
Hey Tubecan, Sounds like your amp is really getting fun! It may well be that the latter part of your comment, about hearing cables so well, answers the former. I think distinctly hearing things you thought were not necessarily for real before indicates the new playground you are in. Steve's amps are just quite revealingly and liquid by design, and especially if tuned to optimize those qualities. Transparency and resolution really good, with nice tubes, cables, other components and all, the musical experience can feel pretty real in my experience. With my Toriis, also using VR tubes as power filters to the tubes, in this setup, I have always been able to hear differences in VRs of the same voltage rating, and more so going from, say an OA3 to an OB3, or OB3 to OC3. Changing the little VRs, it is totally noticeable here too. When I think of the power that feeds the signal path parts and tubes being cleaner, more refined, it is not hard to imagine how that power refinement will effect the parts that make up the signal path and sound. Using VRs this way is great design, but also another indicator of how important the quality of power is, before the amp, and inside the amp...better in, better performance, and better sound out. I have been exploring with my amp and pre power supplies, connectors, wires, resistors, caps and all for a few years, often experimenting daily, or several times in a day, to optimize whatever I am working on. The last month or so, I can get "glimpses," but can't really hear anything that seems off about the sound, just amazed at the beauty. Loads of these changes were all about power, not technically in the signal path. And changing a power bypass cap value, type, or combination...or a resistor, or wire, by enhancing the quality and character of the power going to the tubes, it was clear that power tuning can seriously tune the sound! I have been listening really carefully for a long time, but to me these power changes are quite obvious...as obvious in most cases as signal path part changes. This is a big part of why the project took so long...many, many experiments to reach deeper completeness and synergy and I have yet to find a part anywhere in the amp I can't hear when changed. Long story, short, I suspect you were not imagining the sound change with that VR roll! Everything in these amps makes a difference in a revealing system/room, and from what I gather, especially with your new 25th Zen! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 03/27/19 at 13:44:48 Sitting in a piano ducking hammers..actually there was nothing pulled off,this is the first time i'v experienced this,and with an 83 db speaker..40 years in the same room and i get stink eyed for playing too loud!This amplifier is alive!,at low volume the sound after a couple of minutes get's louder,so you turn it down a notch and after a few more minutes again you have turn her down,feels like there's a connection straight to the brain,don't need ears!..i found a bagful of VR' and rectifiers..now to sell off some 12ax telees and whatever,i'm looking at you mk6-going to hit the 6-7dj8' HARD! Linn speaker cable and now 100% i can hear the difference when they're sending the music backwards,before 70%.have to turn down the volume when i type cuz i can't concentrate typing my thoughts.I say just send everyone one of these and we're done.I plugged in an old koss radio and the sound is amazing. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 03/28/19 at 05:40:28 Tubcan, Now you're making my face hurt from smiling so big... because you capture the amazement I felt when I described the sound of the original amplifier in my long-winded posts... my biggest concern while writing about it was of course loosing credibility because it seems too unbelievable therefor it must be marketing bullshit. Of course we all know that is not the case with the first 50 amps out the door and not a single return! Still, we need to be reminded, as you have done, constantly until we all own one. BTW, I believe it IS alive. And BTW, at 2 feet away (If that's what I read) your speakers are plenty efficient from a power standpoint and being familiar with them is an excellent way to evaluate this amp since you have a familiar reference point. I listened to some LP's last night from Sheffield Labs, specifically the first act of Romeo and Juliet, and about 1/3 through it, I was gobsmacked at the dynamics and feeling of realness and space -- it was so real I just about shit my pants. Again, from a 2 watt amplifier and full scale orchestra unleashed and it somehow didn't clip on the DNA2 94dB speakers. I've never heard anything better than that and interestingly I have a "I've never heard anything better than that" story from yesterday too, and the day before, and every day for the past year or more. It is an amplifier that you never get used to, and the longer you live with it the more you realize it is alive and it's female and... a little bit dangerous since you spend well over double the listening time you planed on. Anyway, thanks for getting me wound up so I can get you wound up! And please keep us posted as things progress. It's easy to get one and think "well I can't write anything that hasn't been written already so I just won't stay much." Believe it or not, readers are looking for confirmation, and repeatability, so if your experience sounds similar to everyone else, by all means post it. A hundred posts that all say the exact same things are to the reader like a petition to the greatness of the amplifier. The world is full of great amplifiers, so the only way anyone will be able to share your experience and join this family is by getting pushed over the edge by your posts, impressions, reviews, and mainly just the realtime reports when you hear things you never heard before! Posting the realtime updates lets us experience the amp vicariously which is particularly nice when you don't actually own on yet. Happy listening! Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 03/29/19 at 02:07:47 Hello Steve Deckert..honestly 2 feet away almost facing each other,cept my big head in the way,the greatest headphones ever,more beefier than kan 2 actives with 250's,also no need for more power when their a foot from the front wall in standard setup..seems this amp stopped blinking once in awhile and now there's more than enough power,once in awhile i'll be listening and have this feeling like it's all midrange and high frequencies directly into my brain,then a bass note hits and just floors me.50 amps and not a single return?If this one stopped working you wouldn't get it back.i'd just keep staring at it like i do. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 04/04/19 at 13:40:17 Musical!!,i'm thinking i need another matsushita or two, and a dozen of them sv83' and call it a stupid no brainer retirement amp…majestic.hooked up some smmg and they've never sounded like this…i'm giving this amp a hard time and it just smirks.Funny when you realize most of the time you've been playing amps around a watt and the other 100+ watts are just loitering around.these are 81 db speakers and i'm sitting here wondering wtf. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 04/08/19 at 20:16:43 Tchaikovsky with 88 db reference dulcets..a canadian version of 3/5a' and i don't need anymore watts,i'm thinking that the 2? this amp has is too much! ;D The 6n5p tube seems like it wants to show off but is stuck,maybe another 50 hours?..This amp is amazing. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Acetone on 04/10/19 at 02:15:51 Tubecan ....I agree. A strong +1 on all your comments. Now, if you'll excuse me, it's back to my listening chair! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 04/10/19 at 21:04:53 Yes Tube, just wait. It gets better. I think I am now approaching 300 hours and its just amazing each time I listen. Huge. Pinpoint soundstage. Great detail. Musical. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by alper_yilmaz on 04/10/19 at 21:31:13 I am also around my 300th hour or so, if not more driving 88.5dB speakers. It is just getting better and better. Interestingly, the amp has given me the impression that its volume has increased over the course of the last month or so. Also, there is so much detail that you do not want to crank it up anyway... |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 04/10/19 at 21:57:01 I definitely have the volume lower. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by MrDerrick on 04/13/19 at 21:55:35 I'm at about 150 hours and its hard to believe that this amp will become even more musical! I thought that I had a dead quiet system before inserting the 25th, I was wrong. The 25th is so freaking quiet that it revealed that I still had several layers of noise to eliminate that I never new existed. This amp pushed me to explore installation schemes that I would have never previously needed to consider and the pay off is an exponentially greater listening experience. The end result is once again a dead quiet system with vastly greater dynamics and musicality. I am in the Zen Zone! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 04/14/19 at 00:25:44 So glad you have it and are enjoying it. I love my Monoblocks. . . the mods are more than the real deal, they transform the sound. It keeps getting better too, you have that to look forward to. The amp will teach you how to tailor your system to it. I just realized I've had my modded Monoblocks for a year now! Whoa! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/19 at 01:55:50 Holy crap that year went fast!!! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 04/14/19 at 02:12:05 Yes, and lots of joy! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 04/15/19 at 17:00:25 The last 5 days felt like a year..i bricked my airport express and lost my internet connection and can't figure this out so i gave up...probably something updated automatically and poof.Yup this amp is so quiet that i would have to climb into the speaker to hear any hissing..not one cell phone,taxi conversation picked up..seems dead! till the music starts…awesome amp.I'm thinking i have about 500 hours+,14 hours per day,learned that lesson of leaving amps on from my british fidelity a1 35 years back,i was the only that could keep that toaster going for 6 months at a time. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 05/02/19 at 20:19:09 Klipsch Cornwall 3's turn this 2 watts into a thousand,my ears were flapping…if only my room was bigger…now i'm on the hunt. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Palomino on 05/02/19 at 20:59:54 My speakers are only ~94db but its much louder than I need in a 16X12 room. I'm 3 months in and listen almost daily. I got up early this morning to listen to a few songs I found last night and once again said "wow, this sound really good." |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 05/03/19 at 20:15:24 I wouldn't play them that loud daily,that'd be hurtful.also noticed at low volumes they sound really stunning,i pulled an all nighter with some old bootleg vinyl…they have a certain magnifying trick,must be the sensitivity.Every tube change is easily heard,cables really are directional now no doubt.Trumpets and saxophones on a pair of P3's is something that should be heard,not loud but so thick and there. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 05/07/19 at 20:03:44 This morning i replaced the oa3'vr75 in the back with westinghouse OD3 vr150' and this is even more realistic,the bass,midrange,everything sounds mo better,bigger,wider,could be cuz their canadian?..haha.The meters dropped down to just above 20ma from above 30..strange i thought they would go up. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/07/19 at 21:27:19 That's a nice discovery isn't it? busterfree got me started on OD3 and I really like using them, and have migrated to the OD3W which I really like a lot. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by busterfree on 05/08/19 at 00:12:11 [smiley=cool.gif] Great amps! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 05/09/19 at 19:33:52 I'm back to the OA3's in the rear,change them every couple of days,but the single OD3 Raytheon is staying put. The Bias switch is brilliant, let's me discover some cd's that i could never listen to without grinding my teeth…won't mention an oracle origines stoopid cardas tonearm cable,6 trips and they couldn't figure it out.thing was a microphone with tube amps…still bright with some recordings but i bias and alls ok,great amp that still hasn't picked up a conversation. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Havtorn on 05/12/19 at 10:19:44 After nearly 300 hours of numerous absolutely sublime listening moments with performers and instruments literally extending beyond the physical boundaries of the listening room, yesterday evening was quite surreal to say the least. I'm still scratching my head to fully comprehend what actually happened. How do you explain to someone that the doudouk took a short-cut through your spine or that Marina Celeste stuck her tongue in both your ears and whispered... "Oui, encore!!!...."? With the risk of having the white coats knocking on my door, yesterday evening I think I was in a vortex. The Rodin vortex coil must have been activated through the frequencies generated and moved from the physical, perpetual 1,2,4,8,7,5 loop to the magic 3,6,9 realm. There was a spooky presence that may perhaps best be described as a conscious mind of its own. I need to check if this experience can be repeated or if it was all my imagination.... :) Whatever happened, it left traces and a strong desire for more. Addiction, anybody? :) Yours truly, Havtorn |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by busterfree on 05/12/19 at 10:57:55 Yes. I’m addicted. 
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/12/19 at 12:45:09 I have the Monoblock version of the 25th Anniversary amplifier and I just adore them. It's been more than a year that I have had them in my main system, and as I've learned to integrate them into the system more and more my appreciation for them just grows. There's nothing like them I've ever experienced before. I'm addicted too. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by busterfree on 05/12/19 at 16:56:31 Still listening...to the other system...I really like weekend listening. 
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/19 at 21:35:20 Quote:
Apparently it is repeatable, as I've written about it more than once and now it is happening to you. It's the way it takes control of a situation... it knows the room is not perfect, the speakers may not be ideal, but it just forces them both to bend to it's will and brings the music to life in a way that no other amplifier has. It's like it consciously has the ability to ignore handicaps if it chooses to. No other amplifier in my lifetime has ever had this ability in fact quite the opposite. Seems like if there is even the suggestion of a handicap or weak link in the chain, the amplifiers jump on the opportunity to make an issue out of it. Happy listening : ) Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Joey on 05/12/19 at 21:57:38 I'm almost patiently looking forward to this experience myself with #57. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 05/13/19 at 12:24:29 Re: the “spooky presence”: Yes it’s happened to me and repeatedly so. After getting past the blown fuse/rectifier I was listening to ‘Ain’t No Sunshine’ a capella by the Persuasions and as each vocalist engaged, at one point I said to my wife, who was around the corner, “what did you say?” “Nothing” was the response. The impression of someone being there was that real, that 3 dimensional. Same thing again when I was listening to “Have You Ever Seen The Rain” by Casey Abrams! By the way, the electric guitar lead in that song was, well, I don’t even know how to put it but only to say - spooky. Next day I wondered if it would repeat, and yes it did. It wasn’t perfect though, it was as if the UFO25 was saying: “this is only a taste of what I can do, so get off your butt, finish treating the room and send the CSP-3 in for the mods! Demanding little bugger, in a good way though. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 05/13/19 at 18:32:42 I found a 10 yo panasonic blurry player in my stash,so i plug in direct and there's nothing blurry about this sound..2.25 volts and i swear there's a violin playing in the room..and someones just started playing a real life piano…friends brought over a mullard,telefunken,philips,amperex…and the matsushita 7DJ8 sounds the most realistic. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Havtorn on 05/13/19 at 21:39:04 So I went back to listen again last night, just to check if my head was still on. This time with two albums I know precisely what to look out for (Marc Fosset Trio and Andreas Steier JSB Harpsicord Concertos). There it was again - this eery feeling of not being alone in the room. Only this time with an added feeling of guilt for having dared to question the authority of this amp and insulted its intelligence by having to prove to an inferior mind in useless test sequences what should be self-evident... There is only one problem with this amp - and a major one at it - you don't want to listen to anything else afterwards.... :) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by lazb on 05/13/19 at 22:03:34 and why would you want to? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/13/19 at 22:31:06 Okay, I love these amps but I must confess I don't feel "another presence in the room." I always feel that I'm listening to a recording. I have played instruments, I've been on a stage behind a drum set with a band, I've recorded bands, I've played drums, electronic piano, basses and guitars of a number of types in the very rooms I listen to music. These are the best amps I've ever heard. To me it's as if I'm listening to a microphone feed to my brain rather than the usual stereo presentation. . . but it's still a recording and there are no alien presences alongside me. Maybe I'm too sober but that is how I roll. Amazing amps! Can't wait to wake up and wave goodbye to my wife as she goes off to work tomorrow morning and get some more listening hours in; I've had to stop listening for the day today. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Havtorn on 05/13/19 at 22:40:11 "and why would you want to?" I have a second system and it sounds....well.....pretty uninteresting now.... |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Havtorn on 05/13/19 at 23:10:29 Lon, Having the feeling that you are listening to a recording (albeit a very nice one) is probably what my initial listening impressions were as well. However, with the increasing number of hours added - always with subtle changes and surprises - it's like the amp took a quantum leap lately to a higher dimension. In my case after approx 300 hours. This is at least the impression it gives for the moment in my system and in my listening environment. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Archie on 05/14/19 at 00:08:02 I don't have this amp so I could be wrong but it seems like with time, confidence/faith develops in the amp in that you are in "safe hands" and consequently a relaxed and meditative state takes over. This allows for some serious journeying! 8-) |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/14/19 at 00:25:51 Okay I agree they get better with seasoning. I've had my amps for over a year! I guess I get what it may "feel" like but I am just too anchored in the sound of real music in the air and this gets very very close, but no cigar, but NOTHING gets the cigar. And I agree it makes it hard to listen to another system, but luckily the other system that I get to listen to most has a CSP3 with the 25th Anniversary Mods and a Taboo Mk IV with the 25th Anniversary Mods. . .so it's not a big step down. TV and DVD and Blu-ray especially sound gobsmacking with this "second" system. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Archie on 05/14/19 at 15:59:13 I don't have a live instrument experience either. One note from the grand piano in the corner exposes the lie instantly. But occasionally I do get fooled by something in a recording that sounds like it's in the room with me. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 05/14/19 at 22:32:36 I get and understand what Lon is saying. In fact I’ve been using his perspective and juxtapositioning it with mine which is that of one who listens to live music in a venue as opposed to the musician in the band or orchestra. This has been of great help to me. Getting the balance is tough in reproduction and I think that one is always going to swing a little to one side or the other depending on ones experience which forms ones perspective. Right now I’m burning in the Type 80 St. This particular tube is strong in portraying decay and speed combining it so that it comes off as liquid. Sound stage and layering are also among the best so far. So, that from my perspective it is at times haunting, BUT... it can come off as neutral to the point of being a little cool at times and I want a little more of Lon has without loosing the strengths of whats there, that’s the tough part. If I put in the Sophia, which I like a LOT I loose a little too much of what the Type 80 is doing. S*%T!! It’s early in the game to come to a final conclusion. I also noted as I walked around that I really do need to finish treating the room or I may never be able to get that just right balance, for me. In the end will it be the same as the real thing? No. Will the illusion of the real thing from various perspectives be there. I think so and the illusion will be quite strong so much so that it can take one off guard. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by will on 05/15/19 at 03:15:57 I guess what we define as "real" is a lot semantics. Clearly what we listen to in our music rooms is recorded, most relatively "enhanced" by recording equipment and methods, and/or the rooms used for recording.... hopefully in positive ways on the whole. Some recordings attempt purer representation of a live venue, and most, studio recordings, are artist’s attempts to potentiate a great studio-produced experience of the music. I like both. Recording tech, often relatively good at capturing aspects of real music...spectral balance, space, fine detail, harmonics, timing...then we audio people start to play with it. But it is fragile. All else good, I think harmonics and space can too easily be lost or defiled. And if so, even if we don’t consciously notice it, it seems our very fine-tuned innate perception “knows” and perceives it as “unreal.” Luckily, Steve, Bob, and other’s work hard to help us retain and subtly enhance natural musical qualities from recordings. With this support, and with care and diligence in setup, it seems to me that a recording is much easier to experience as close to the music musicians experience when recording. If we can create system/rooms that can compliment well recorded music as completely as possible, retaining and enhancing the fragile structures and clarity of real music, it seems shortcomings of recordings can be nudged back toward natural musical qualities to various degrees. Well implemented tubes can clearly support this, as can the musical qualities of exceptional sources, cables, etc. But more commonly, audio devices and combinations can easily mess up harmonic structures, fine detail, space and timing, the most difficult things to preserve...making the music less “real.” And many rooms just make it all worse. But if the gear conveys natural musical qualities, and the room supports and/or enhances these fragile qualities, with little harm to what makes music feel real, our chances for complex systems transforming recordings into authentic feeling music increase. The audiophile game presents….and with luck, on occasion we find ways into the precious beauty! My setup is not perfect, but it is very authentic and captivating to me. I experience the sense of players, or more, instruments "in the room" all the time, purer recordings without embellishment feeling like the church or hall it was recorded in. And with nice studio recordings, with good soundstage representation, my room starts to feel like the studio mix is "in my room." Here, synergy of my heavily modified (musically enhanced) system with my room, very much contributes to the experience of "a live" feel from recordings. Without truncation of things that make music sound and feel real, if a system/room can reveal and compliment the balance and complexities of music gracefully...and if the recording and room will allow a saturated soundstage with good layering of width and depth...room boundaries disappearing, the ambient information from instrument to infinity supports a greater sense of a "real" musical experience to our "subconscious." It seems that with natural and relatively complete musical values conveyed, we remove critical barriers to our body/mind accepting the music as "real." Alternately, hiding from system/room flaws by "making a system forgiving," or hyping it up in some ways to mask deficiencies, can “sound good” but often removes natural musical qualities our body/mind need to more fully sympathize with. Feeling unnatural, recordings sound/feel more like they are separate and incompatible with our very subtle body/mind systems. On the other hand, seems the closer an audio system/room gets to being able to portray recordings with natural and balanced musical structure, the easier it is for our body/mind to harmonize with the music, to be "taken over" by it, the energy of the music sympathetic with the energies that make up our body/mind. I like what really nice mics, gear and mixing can do with the music. Not always, but in many cases, for me, the enhancements of quality recording, mixing and mastering can be as intended, supportive toward an immersive listening experience. In my room these days, if I can let go of the analytical aspects of "listening," my consciousness gives over to the experience of the music. When it works, consciousness expanded, not much awareness of body, I am aware of experiencing the music through "hearing," but I feel like I have become part of the waves of sound...interactive. Not disappearing, but without separation, experiencing self as self, but also as a part of the music. And it has become repeatable with the right balance of conditions, darkness an important contributor. Recorded though it is, in terms of natural musical structure (and therefore experience) I suspect my room sounds better than many mixing rooms, and certainly better than most live performances where the rooms and gear are most often not exceptional...damaging the natural complexity of the music before our body/consciousness gets a chance to integrate with it. Sure, if it is a big enough sound, and not terribly off, it engulfs our body/mind with its vibrations, but the real test to me is in-home listening levels. It seems more of us are "getting there” these days, and not surprising, the 25th amp and modifications making it easier. I guess this is why we are hearing more people on the forum talk about the immersive experience as feeling "real" and transformative. I personally don't see this intimate integration with the music as an illusion. It is more allowing myself to fully participate in the very beautiful language of music, which is after all energetic, like we are. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 05/15/19 at 05:33:58 This is really a great thread so far! I am getting confirmation on all of last years ramblings about his amplifier. Also Lon, your comment contrasted against your library of incredible insight about our gear through 20 some years of listening made me realize for certain what I have always suspected, and that is that -- in a room that is well treated with the speakers 4 to 6 feet from any wall, diffusers on at least the front wall, the holographic aspect of the 3D soundstage is so overwhelming that it shorts out your cognitive senses to the point where music takes on literally another dimension that is the same dimension as when you and I sat behind the drum kit and jammed live. It sounded real when we were in the studio because it was 3D. The difference between recorded and live is essentially the difference between 2D and 3D. -Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 05/15/19 at 05:55:40 The ultimate goal is to not hear the amp, speakers, cables, or room. As was mentioned earlier in this thread. Music is energetic, understatement. The universe is held together by it. The power of music has a wide range. Music is consciousness. I learned this in the studio as the barely capable drummer in a weekly open stage where you never knew who would show up or what would happen, I found myself in situations where 'real musicians' would walk in and I would be thrilled because that's what it takes to get a good sound. My interest was always in getting a good sound as I recorded live two track and live 16 track simultaneously for 10 years without missing a single night. On those somewhat rare nights when just the right musicians would walk in and some spontaneous jams would ensue, I found myself able to play the drums perhaps 3 to 4 times better than my actual abilities, because the music took control of me and shoved my mind out of the way. Those were some of the most glorious moments I've experienced musically, and I clearly came to understand the music was a form of consciousness that had the ability to take control and make all the players, even an entire orchestra perform every note and intonation with exquisite perfection. Anything that can makes humans who can't even agree what to put on a hotdog operate as a single consciousness is itself conscious. I have experienced the same presence from this amplifier on good captures of real music. -Steve |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/15/19 at 12:23:23 Steve Deckert wrote on 05/15/19 at 05:33:58:
Honestly Steve I don't feel there's any contradiction with my recent comments to my backlog of comments. I have NEVER said that I felt that recorded music WAS real in any room with any equipment. Yes, I've encountered "realism," and I've encountered "in the room" moments, but I've been careful to consistently be both aware and expressive that I don't feel reproduced music "makes a real music experience" in my rooms. My cognitive functions are never suspended in this manner no matter how much part of me wishes they were. Granted I don't live in a treated room with my system but I have been listening in treated rooms (granted not with Decware equipment, but with some very good equipment). I have certainly heard interesting things in this set up but in my personal experience things like "soundstage" and "imaging" as experienced with stereo reproduction is not "realistic," does not share important qualities of "real music" performed and not "reproduced." For me there's a lot more of a difference than just between "2D and 3D":--"3D" reproduced music does not share important properties of real music in the air underproduced. Granted there are a lot of interesting features of such a room and reproduction, but I have NEVER been able to live in a situation where I could "go that route," and I can't imagine a point in my life going forward without a divorce or the death of my wife when I could entertain building such a listening space, and I want NEITHER of those possibilities to occur, my married life is more important to me than music reproduction (which is VERY important!) And I don't want to produce an internal and external conflict by getting acclimated to and hearing a number of systems in treated rooms as this can't become my reality. I have learned over the years how NOT to torment myself. That said, I still don't think that any system can make music become that real in playback, because of the recording process itself. With the innovations of Steve's pioneering work and the skillful setup of systems and rooms we get right to the heart of the matter: the recordings themselves. And while some are spectacular the very nature of "recording" -- capturing an experience from the air and room into any media -- creates a barrier to realistic reproduction that just isn't surmountable. We can get really close TO the recording right now, but we're still at the recording. This is the empirical nature of my experience both sides of a microphone. And I'm quite happy with as close as we can get. I think in my youth I was more inclined to fantasy and mysticism and felt a lot more "playfully" and idealistically about music, but I just can't surrender reality in my listening sessions to an absolute extent. Maybe that's my limitation, but my own personal growth has been fortified by shedding unreality in my life and facing and wrestling with reality, so I am not as fantastical or mystical about music as I had been. It's a very important part of my "inner life" and the "talk" in my brain. I have a voracious appetite for it, having become bored about four centuries ago with a steady diet of "rock" and moved into an exploration of many varieties of music, and recording formats, and musicians and I still keep a pair of hands and feet into music with guitars and keyboards if not drums these days. I love my Decware and enjoy expansive and deeply satisfying listenings, but I'm not experiencing "presences" in my listening space, and that's probably good because the "presences" persons in my life HAVE experienced have not always been "benevolent!" |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by will on 05/16/19 at 01:40:57 Nice post Lon. Isn't it interesting how we all "use" music in similar, but different ways! Thanks for explaining your challenges and solutions. The questions you present relative to reality make sense, but also set me on an exploration of thought. I hope this "sidetrack" is interesting to some folks. For me, as I seek to experience our virtually unexplored energetic aspects of self, this is seeking reality. Historic evidence consistently implies that “reality” is often skewed by a long progression of culturally held beliefs that are often only part real. "Consensus" views, often stimulated by a natural interest in reality, this supports a feeling of seeking reality. But at the same time, "reality" tends to be "adjusted" by influences like unresolved fears, hatred, desires.....and a multitude of partial truths cultured conditioning progressively develops and holds as true. Empowering the pattern, to gain a sense of "comfort," we tend to "hold tightly" to beliefs we think we can “count on,” making them static. The question this presents for me: When a fundamental activity in all nature is transformation, and we are aspects of nature, how can we believe we can make static that which innately cannot be static? Yet we do this with our beliefs! I think this is a good illustration of how tricky delusion can be. Luckily, our more insightful aspect of self is uncomfortable with partial truths, and seeks clarification. We find we can’t quite resonate with a lot culture describes as true. I think this creates "seekers" of reality, partially explaining lots of creative people. If conditioned reality does not feel right, we need to step a little out of the box to seek clarification. Creative practice, like playing and listening to music, can nurture our confidence in "self exploration," and exploration and discovery opening the mind, creative practices can potentiate uncovering and refining reality. An example of how reality can be easily skewed: Scientifically we have discovered that we are both energetic and mass. Yet conditioning tells us we are mainly flesh and blood...or mass, leaving energetic awareness and utilization under explored. For most of us, we “know” intellectually that cells are made of sub-atomic particles, but being outside our “cultured” experience, the energetic remains foreign and mysterious, even scary. And even for more adventurous explorers, cultured beliefs are so deep, they tend to overwhelm and/or limit our ability to perceive and utilize the energetic nearly as fully as we capable of. Confused, and with little supportive guidance from culture, seekers of reality tend to get tired, often falling back to various degrees on variations of collective belief patterns. In process, seeking comfort in the norm, attaching to beliefs as “truths,” beliefs tend to become relatively unchangeable. Strengthening the pattern, by forming a static reality with defined outer boundaries culture can accept, most anything outside our conditioned reality is felt as suspect, even dangerous...we learn to fear and even fight the "unknown." Seeking reality in this confusion, it appears the main difference between the energetic and mass, is how we perceive things. And conditioning causing us to believe we are mass and not energy, we miss out on much of what we truly are, energetic! How can beliefs that leave out a large part of our perception, abilities and nature be real? Even more odd to me, statically held beliefs are resistant or opposed to fundamental transformational patterns of nature...the driving force of nature. And since we are aspects of nature, aren't static beliefs opposed to our own nature? A closed circuit, by limiting our energetic potential, we limit our exposure to transformative nature, in turn, limiting our potential for exploration of our broader energetic consciousness and insights. Sealing the deal, our natural cautions about unknowns get mixed up with indoctrinated fears, turning off potential to more articulately utilize innate energetic perception and discernment...impeding potentially powerful tools for helping us better define reality. Under these cloudy preconditions it is hard to know what is real and what is not….and it can be scary or unhealthy to go very deeply into energetic exploration without care. So I think approaching it with caution, and seeking to know our own limits is wise. And I agree, there are malevolent energies. Even if we only look at the collective energetic patterns of hatred, fear, contempt, belligerence... energetic signatures we inadvertently learn to pass around to one another and broadcast into the air. So I attempt to explore unknowns of energetic awareness and perception with safeguards of consciously aligning with healthy, life supporting energies, while consciously attempting to stay clear of those that are not supportive of harmonic life. I find, calm, open-minded consciousness, that is intentionally aligned with life-supporting energetic patterns, is innately less biased by conditioned ideology and beliefs. So I try to find safe ways to explore this aspect of consciousness as a means of uncovering and refining reality. Being more relaxed and objective, open mind seems more capable of experiencing unexplored aspects of our reality, leaving us more open to insights that support reality. I hope this explains part of why I cultivate my becoming deeply absorbed and interactive with the music. In that open state of mind absorption with the music can support, I experientially learn more about our subtler, more complete nature. But no two have the same life-experience and genetics, so our lives and needs unfold in different ways. All “original,” hopefully our individual observations through our experiences with our gear and music are useful to others. Lots of ways to explore! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/16/19 at 02:01:18 Interesting post. I too seek deep interaction with music, and feel a clear distinction between deep interaction while creating music (alone and with others) and while experiencing music reproduction. And the two are clearly different in nature to me, which is evidenced strongly when I combine them by say playing along to a recording -- even an overdubbed or looped bit of music I played myself. My life was drastically changed when I was 11 living in a modern American city at sea level and one day our entire family got on a plane and ended up living two years in a very different culture in a much more ancient and undeveloped African city that is 2400 meters above sea level. I had to rethink reality, consensus, individual, and identities of race, culture and nationality. And there was another complete environmental and cultural shift for three additional years before I returned to what was a normal reality before in America, and was now another reality mashup to decipher and get a grip on. I've been a student of perception and perspective since. I value reproduced music most for getting me out of myself and into an accepting attitude of information and emotional input, and it has a specific gravity as sound waves and vibrations, different from the same factors in "real music" and ne'er the twain has really met for me. And at this stage unless something truly alters my consciousness in untold new ways I don't think it ever will. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the heck out of it, analyze the hell out of it, some days LIVE for it. I love music. I am thirsty for more to experience and study. If I had to choose getting more music to handle and listening to it on humble equipment to having incredible equipment and a few hundred "playlists," I'd choose the former. The lucky part of my life has led me to having an amazing collection that grows and teaches and fantastic equipment to reproduce it. Regarding energetic being: I get that is a part of our very nature, and I do experience it though I don't think of it that much. I feel the energy of people I'm my life--especially if it is a negative force. I've a fresh batch of family members in my life now with a new marriage and boy. some of them present a type of negative energy that I have not had to interact with as intimately as I do ever before. It's a huge challenge to surmount. And I do feel the presence in my life of several who have passed, and one who is 1400 miles away but sometimes seems as if they have their arm around my waist. These are fascinating things to experience and ponder. But I really haven't felt a "presence" when listening to the Anniversary Monoblocks. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 05/16/19 at 04:33:08 Quote:
There is a real art to that !!! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/16/19 at 11:57:44 Steve Deckert wrote on 05/16/19 at 04:33:08:
Indeed. I think I learned the basics via the means I used to quit smoking cold turkey nearly 29 years ago; readjusting my situations and habits to reinforce that "quitting" helped me begin to learn how to avoid torments and temptations. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Dominick on 05/16/19 at 18:35:11 Will...your post was very well composed and refreshing to read. I think too often we tend to become complacent and put ourselves on auto pilot. While that may be ok in the short term… It wreaks havoc on our well-being and growth in the long term. I often try to check in with myself every so often to see if I am happy… and if not what do I need to do to change it. Along time ago when I was doing martial arts… It opened me up to experiencing not only the dynamics of fighting, but the meditation and awareness that goes along with it. Talk about some fascinating stuff. How does this relate to music… Well depending on one’s mood, it will invoke the thought process of the meaning behind the songs that we listen to. There are times when I want to listen to rock ‘n’ roll music, and there are times when the only thing I want to enjoy is classical music. I recently saw one of my favorite artists John Mellencamp at the Beacon Theater in New York City. With sitting only 4 rows from the stage, you are totally forced to connect yourself with the artist and his music. For 2 hours there were no distractions just pure enjoyment. At one point during the show he had an accordionist and a violinist up on stage doing a duo. It was phenomenal!! Even my wife who is not a huge fan, was totally blown away. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by will on 05/18/19 at 20:28:50 Thanks Dom. I think active efforts to make our life happier, and the martial arts are both nice pointers as we look at how Decware and music in our rooms can be enjoyed. It's fun for me to imagine life thousands of years ago, the origins and results of developing the martial arts. Touching back to my earlier "brain storm," I think these arts emerged as early “mind” explorers discovered that the energetic and cellular are “different sides of a the same coin.” And cultivating awareness of our energetic makeup, they learned we can use it to become healthier, happier, and more capable. In time, they became known as Taoists, students of Tao ("the Way")... though I think "explorers and practitioners of the Way of Harmonic Nature" is more descriptive of their motivations and practices. Captivated by looking into how we are made and function, and also everything else...plants, animals, rocks, mountains, streams... they were basically early physicists. They learned to recognize and interact articulately with source energies that drive everything, in turn noticing how fundamental energy morphs and conglomerates into activity, form, and consciousness. The “language” of energetic nature being discovered, by consciously integrating our cellular and energetic "languages," they uncovering ways to become more coherent, complete and able. Associated, they noticed that our personal energetic body/consciousness can consciously interact with the energetic configurations of others, leading to practices that increase, concentrate, and move energy in specific ways. More “conversant” with the energetics of the plant world, and discovering the meridians, sophisticated healing methods began to develop. Further cultivating meridian therapy, they discovered movements that empowered, harmonized and expanded wellbeing and consciousness. The basis of Chi Gong, Tai Chi, and Kung Fu, healing/meditative practices morphed into "martial arts," uncovering more skills for focussing and utilizing energy articulately. “Intuition,” being an aspect of our energetic language, we can practice to cultivate it. Without thought, we can “know” the moves of our fellow practitioner milliseconds before they happen, and respond accordingly. We can "learn" to concentrate energy, “grounding” so powerfully we can't be moved. Or...in an instant, before thought, we can spring faster, higher, further and more articulately than we could ever imagine. They discovered that by cultivating “hidden,” but innate perceptive functions and consciousness, we can access and interact with the all-inclusive, interactive overlays of energy all around us...martial arts becoming a practice to cultivate these skills. These practices revealed “collective consciousness,” consciousness inclusive of all energy and the information it carries. Each of us, as aspects of the collective consciousness, it is “ours” and can be accessed by us. Realizing that each activity conveys energetically, influencing all adjacent energetic patterns (things and actions), they saw that everything influences everything...They noticed that energetically, all things interact either directly of indirectly. Collective energetic patterns, particle configurations more multi-dimensional and overlaid than linear, it is vast, but they began to notice that with mind opened and clear, we could experience many levels of energetic “consciousness” as it exists, at once. ”Collective Wisdom” contains too much information for linear, "word-time" thinking mind to take in. And being trained that linear consciousness, is consciousness, the countless overlays of energetic consciousness literally boggles our thinking mind. It is way too much information to linearize. At the same time, from our culturally biased thinking mind, rife with semi-real beliefs and associated confusions, countless multi-dimensional energetic patterns are difficult to even imagine, much less perceive and use. But finally the barrier appears to be more a matter of training and perception than reality. We all experience collective consciousness, it is just that most have not explored it consciously! Like when we think of a person living across the country, and then get a call from them. Or, without thought, we can "know" how to roll as we fall, protecting ourselves...or sensing the strong emotions a person is feeling as they walk into a room before “knowing” anyone is there...Like the sense of a presence behind us as a wild animal turns its attention our way, we often “know” energetically before it becomes thought. So energetic consciousness is not as foreign as it appears, more “uncharted.” The “study” of consciousness developing further, as it became clearer that Mind covers all levels of consciousness and perception, the early Taoists noticed that association with broader harmonic consciousness could also harmonize and enhance thinking mind. On its own, thinking mind doesn't have a complete tool set and can become pretty twisted and confused, even toxic...resulting in greed, wars, theft, lies…..Unsupported by harmonic insight, it has serious limitations and can easily get caught in its static stockpile of part-real beliefs (delusions) and machinations. We all know those “loops” of trying to figure things out...lying in bed, similar patterns of thought looped over and over, burning loads of energy with no end in sight unless we finally have an insight. Yet thinking mind, when naturally integrated with other aspects of our consciousness, is very useful, a great tool for sorting things out linearly, it can help us "understand" and communicate. So explorers of consciousness learned to calm habitual thinking mind dominance as a means to expose and cultivate awareness of our broader consciousness. They noticed “gut feelings” were manifestations of subtler and more inclusive “consciousness.” Terms like “gut mind,” and “Heart Mind” pointed to consciousness being interactive with the brain, but not confined to it. For millennia, different pathways of creative exploration of "the language" of Mind have revealed the same results, a subtler, more complete and effective broader consciousness that makes thinking mind a lot smarter. With carefully developed Decware based system/rooms, especially using “current” tech, the 25th and other new modifications, it seems consciousness altering experiences are reported more and more. To me, this is saying that the music can be a catalyst to broadened, more complete consciousness. If we can relax the differentiating controls of thinking mind, our energetic makeup is more easily interactive with spectrally and harmonically authentic music. These amps can apparently support this. Feeling close enough to how we experience natural music, we can more easily relax habituated thinking mind activity, potentiating shifting perception and consciousness. Finally, with an optimized setup, brilliant audio with a beautiful soundstage, seems we can become "captivated" by the experience. I am thinking "lost in the music," or “players in the room,” are descriptors of Mind assuming its more natural state, open and receptive, allowing more complete interaction with the music. Seems a good/system room can potentially be transformative and supportive of well being in many ways! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Dominick on 05/21/19 at 06:31:16 Quote:
I totally agree Will. When I did Ninjitsu, it was made up of the 5 elements, Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Void. Without going into details about the philosophy, each element invokes a certain feeling, which then transfers into its own fighting style. Really good stuff. The takeaway...there are different style songs that invoke deferents feelings in us. When I listen to the Gregorian Chant or Singing Bowls, it really hits you at your inner core and I correlate that with Earth philosophy of the Ninjutsu fighting style....etc, etc. Some of the meditation that we did helps you reflect on your feelings and emotions. I think that’s why music is so important to me....I can appreciate it on multiple levels ...especially since I played the guitar growing up. Quote:
I agree 100%. Very well stated. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 05/27/19 at 16:24:01 It's astonishing how these amazing amps let us hear so much. I came to the conclusion that one of the less explored areas of my system that might yield improvement was the HDMI cable that connects my transport and DAC and tried a number of cables I had on hand and one that I purchased that was purpose built for digital audio via I2S which is what is happening in my connection and not video. Very interesting experiment over a few weeks. I ended up unseating my PS Audio AC12 HDMI cable with one of my PS Audio AC10 HDMI cables. I think the PCOCC copper in the latter trumped the silver in the former. The Harmonic Technology cable I used for two weeks was very good, but ultimately the AC10 was just a bit more relaxed and natural sounding. And as a result I tried swapping voltage regulation tubes of the output tubes in my Monoblocks and am now enjoying Sylvania 0B3. With the ZROCK2 I can enjoy either 0B3 or 0D3W and am enjoying the touch of warmth the 0B3 are bringing to the presentation. With the transparency and liveliness these amps instill in playback we interact with the system and each session is an exchange that we hate to end. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 07/23/19 at 15:03:12 This 25th amplifier is seriously addictive…1000 hours and this combo is staying,yes the best sound ever out of a pair of PP shoebox' or any ls3/5a ever! maybe even any system ever, never owned a subwoofer but this amp digs deep!walking down a side street i stumble upon a box of beaten up used tubes,first one i grab is a smoke GE 280 radiotron,so i home it and this tube is magic…the imaging in another room is better the a mac275 while in front of one.LOL.really,i'm in the kitchen making a cup of sheng and there's that cymbal playing over there"in the kitchen" If this amp ain't voted the bestest amp ever by someone than i don't understand. Every tube change,and i visad plenty, is a new amp..sick. I'll try posting a photo of the magic tube..ma' didn't change from the supplied psvane,so this tube may be new. 
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Tubecan on 07/23/19 at 15:31:26 If that was an 8 pound rack of beef ribs cooked for 12 hours+ with pecan-cherry wood and 4 different pepper corns it would probably show up…gotta go.This tube looks like an RCA..so after digging looks like GE bought out rca and there's that magical tube in my amp. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Ace-Tone on 07/26/19 at 16:50:45 I hear ya Tubecan....UFO25 is sick good! 11 months in for me and I continue to be surprised and amazed with what this amp does (don't forget that good sources are a key factor in this). Listened to Focus "Hamburger concerto" last night. I've heard this on CD dozens of times over the years and because it is a dated recording I was not getting my hopes up for sonic bliss with the used LP I found for $8 at the local record store. Damn, I was wrong. I was captivated as much as I am with other great recordings I've experienced with the UFO25. It's like hearing the album for the first time when this happens....wonderful! :format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-4731191-1447362883-2078.jpeg.jpg)
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 07/26/19 at 18:18:41 Thelonious Monk "Monk's Dream" Mobile Fidelity SACD. Did a brief comparison between this and the ORG SACD. Both sound good. I think I'll be letting the ORG go though. 
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Thomas on 07/26/19 at 18:54:02 Love this album. I have the ORG. What do you like about the MFSL? |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Lon on 07/26/19 at 19:07:21 The MFSL is just a bit mellower and a bit less forward sounding, with wonderful micro-detail of the piano and drum resonances. Suits my taste and system just a shade more. Both are excellent. Having one or the other one doesn't really need both. Right now Hank Mobley "Soul Station" XRCD. Been a long time since I spun this one; last time it was the mono version on Platinum SHM-CD 
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by duaneh on 02/08/21 at 14:40:09 I’m 10 months into my Heresy IIIs, my SE84UFO25 has about 50 hours, my new Mapleshade Double Helix V2 cables are in place, and my new DSRs are plugged in to my new CXN V2. “Take a Walk on the Wild Side” takes my breath away. “Houses of the Holy” is religious. I know “The Lady Wants to Know” with new intimacy. Friedemann’s “Queen Bee” thumps my bowels. Acoustic guitars arrest me, making me wonder in Shakespeare talk, “Did my heart love till now? forswear it, [ears]! For I ne'er [heard] true beauty till this night.” OK, that last may be over the top, and I’m no seasoned audiophile with lots to compare, but Oh My. Thanks, forum, for your guidance. And thanks Decware for your watts, all 2.3! |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 02/08/21 at 17:42:32 duaneh it only gets better! How good this amp really is was impressed on me in the last two weeks, and I've had it for some time now. I had to send my ZR2 in for repairs and was wondering if I could listen without it... and yes I can, non stop. That's not to say that the ZR2 isn't going back in, it most definitely is. But, with couple of adjustments on the gain structure... I found that the UFO 25 exceeded my expectations by a long shot. The only down side is that I've also realized that I have to add some bass traps when the ZR2 gets back. Also thinking about pulling the trigger on a pair of Cornwall 4's (the S3HOXRS are going nowhere). |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by MrDerrick on 02/08/21 at 21:28:34 The Herb Reichert review of the SE84UFO & SE84UFO25 is now out in the Stereophile March issue. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by JOMAN on 02/13/21 at 00:43:09 I've posted my impressions of the ZR2 that I sent in for repairs and came back repaired with a Mundorf bypass cap and that I had to spend quite some time to come to grips with the difference that it made. Earlier I stated that listening to the UFO25 without the ZR2 impressed upon me just how good the UFO25 is. So is a ZR2 with the Mundorf bypass cap recommended? YES, emphatically YES! Especially so if you have a UFO25. Does it make the UFO25 better? No it does not. What it does is give the UFO25 a better input signal to work with, in turn the UFO25 is of such caliber that it is more than capable of letting it all through. The UFO25 is as good as it gets, IMO. By the way, I would suggest that when you do make changes up stream, as I have, that in themselves are an improvement... sit down before you turn it all on. You most likely will not expect the resulting change that the UFO25 will let you hear, and you won't be caught standing half way between the speakers and chair looking somewhat confused, as I was. |
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Title: Re: 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier Impressions! Post by Steve Deckert on 02/14/21 at 01:28:36 Talking about source quality... A man wrestles for years with the concept of spending three times as much on a new source and then he gets well outside his comfort zone one day and pulls the trigger on one. Let's say it cost $2K above what he wanted to spend. It arrives and he listens to it in awe. You see, he didn't realize that this $2K investment would make his source sound better, and make his preamp sound $2K better and his amplifier sound $2K better and his speakers sound $2K better. So he spent $2k, and got a return of $8K. Had he realized that he would have gotten $8K worth of upgrades throughout his entire stereo by spending only $2K it would have happened way earlier. With an amplifier like the SE84UFO25, big rewards come from small investments. Steve |
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