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AUDIO FORUMS >> Room Treatment >> Treatment advice
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Message started by Scott in mich on 06/03/18 at 15:58:16

Title: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 06/03/18 at 15:58:16

Got my first post out of the way, so on to some specific questions.

Attached, hopefully, is a jpeg waterfall of my room. Looks like I've got some work to do.

It's a small room 14.75ft by 11.67ft by 7.46ft.

Was thinking about some GIK scopus T40's since they have a range of about 30-60hz along with some tri-traps in the corners. GIK has options of range limiters and diffusion for most of their products and I wasn't sure which way to go with that. Also some 242 panels for the side walls - again with or without diffusion I'm not sure.

A company call audimute makes some ceiling tiles. I would post a link but I'm not allowed yet. I'm in the basement with a drop ceiling and these would be great assuming they were effective. I can do almost half my celing for about $350. Anyone tried these?

I've got about 1/2" foam covering a cement floor with two 5x8 area rugs over that. Not worried about the floor at the moment.

I had a bunch of stuff in my cart a couple times, but didn't pull the trigger. I guess I'm just looking for some assurance that I'm making the right choices and the sound will improve significantly. The system sounds bright/harsh, thin and generally not listenable at all.

Also, once I treat the room will I need to change that if I get different components later - like after my SE84UFO or DNA's show up?

thanks for your help.

Scott

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Lonely Raven on 06/10/18 at 06:05:17

The nice thing about room treatments is you're treating the room, not the gear in the room. So you might need to move it around a bit to account for different reflection points of speakers...but the fact is the room will still have the same dimensions and same problems.

The guys at GIK are good people, I've chatted with Glen and Ethan a few times comparing notes on diffuser builds, and I got to manhandle some of their gear at the last Axpona audio show in Chicago - very well made stuff! So give them a call and ask them for guidance.

IMHO, you need *both* absorption and diffusion. For them to be effective you need to cover at least 25% of your rooms boundaries - so a few will make slight dent, but it takes several to really make a difference.

Also check out Dennis at Acoustic Fields - he's got lots of great videos on youtube and his devices are some of the best I've ever seen. Expensive though.

Good luck! And I have to say I'm super excited to see you doing measurements!

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 06/10/18 at 23:42:15

Artnovion is worth a gander as well. I have a few of their absorption and diffusion panels.

https://www.artnovion.com

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 06/24/18 at 03:53:59

Thanks for the replies. I looked into Acoustic Fields and watched quite a few of Dennis Foley's videos. The guy sure knows his stuff. He would tell me to find another room for sure, but there were several folks that had smaller rooms that Dennis advised - so it's not impossible. I liked the Sam Small video. His absorption units are massive - 250 lbs. Also looked at Artnovion. Looks like good stuff too. They had a very interesting corner unit but it was "coming soon".

So I ordered 4 bass units and 6 panels from GIK. We'll see how that goes. Just ordered today so no timetable yet.

I've been looking into speaker placement. Found the Cardas method. That puts my speakers too far out in the room to leave there permanently. The image was pretty good, but sounded a bit thin. I'll try it again once I get some room treatments. Found the Vandersteen method too. Had pretty good results with that. Still a decent image, with a lot better bass response.

Once I decide on the best location I'll run some more measurements so I can do a before and after treatments. Also found a collection of tones from Realtraps. Really helps find the hot spots.

I've got a big screen tv that I'd like to keep in the room. So I'm going to try six of Steve's diffusors in front of it and 4 on the back wall. Hopefully that will work as I can easily move them out of the way when not in use.

I ordered of UFO today too, so I've got a couple months to get the room ready for it.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Lonely Raven on 06/29/18 at 17:30:29

For speaker placement, just remember it's all just a guide - ultimately what pleases you and works for your gear in your room. I know for me tweeter types make a big difference in my placement since Imaging is #1 importance for me. But as you've found out, if your sound tanks due to a deadspot, then Imaging isn't everything. LOL

Basically, when you get your amp and your treatment, play around with it. Put it in places you were told to, then do something completely off the wall with them and see what happens! You could even discover something that works magic in your room.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Acetone on 06/29/18 at 19:37:49

+1 on that LR. I've been tweaking speaker placement for 3 years. Every once in a while it's...what if I do this, or that, or??? But, Very happy with current placement which has not changed for months now!

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 07/06/18 at 03:23:26

I got word today that GIK is shipping my initial order, so I thought I'd do some more measuring and see if I could get a result on what I've done so far. I think it looks quite a bit better and I'm pretty happy with things so far.

What I've done:
- Decware DSR interconnects (96 hours use) - transformed the system into something listenable although still bright and thin sounding with the vandersteens. Other speakers sounded good without the brightness and thinness. Cringing was no longer necessary.

- Double Helix speaker cable (37 hours use) - No more brightness on the vandersteens. In fact I reset the tweeter levels from -3db to 0db and still sounds good. Brought the bass level up to audible.

- Set the speakers on the cement floor instead of 3/4" foam - seems to have helped focus the sound with a bit more impact.

- Speakers are moved toward the front and side walls a few inches.

Unfortunately, the volume control on my ARC LS15 isn't working right anymore. It gets louder and softer, but takes big jumps in volume instead of fine steps. I've got an email into them, but no response yet....ARGGHHH

Guess I'll run the UFO without the preamp after all.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Vooraphile on 07/07/18 at 09:02:46

Try ASI product by Franck Tchang..
Google it for the details..

With this product., u don't need to spend fortune on diffuser, absorber and etc.. I don't have any diffuser, absorber, traps or others to treat my room..

Only ASI products..

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 07/07/18 at 17:53:50

Reading the 6moons review. Looks interesting. Can you tell me where you purchased them, how many, which models, where placed etc?

Certainly goes against the grain of what I've found out in the last few months.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Vooraphile on 07/08/18 at 17:14:13

Where about are u at.? I could get my local distributor for direction.
Or u may also email Franck directly, he should be able to direct u.

Read the review by 6moons on the ASI products like sugar cubes & resonators. They are really amazing stuff.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 07/20/18 at 00:08:19

Figured it was time to do some more measuring now that the GIK stuff is here. I've actually been spending more time listening to my Betsy speakers than messing around with the room treatments.

I thought the graph would look much flatter. I'm not sure what is going on around 200hz, but the rest looks better. The decay times are better too. I did notice a big difference in sound. Much better bass, and more detail. I notice small things like finger snaps, hand claps, maybe some background vocals that previously were not resolved well. Lyrics are a lot easier to pick up as well.

Progressing nicely.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 07/20/18 at 00:11:38

Here is graph of the Betsy. Looks promising.

I find that I have done a flip flop on music choices with the system sounding so much better. For example I'd play "Sultans of Swing" or "Money for Nothing" and move on. Now I skip those songs and play the rest of the cd - just sounds so good!

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Ron on 12/01/18 at 19:06:19

So the room is fine, honestly, its better than a cube (what I have).

I have had quite a bit experience with room treatments thus far but by no means an expert. Do it in pieces, measure twice, buy once, repeatedly. Until your ears are happy. That is more important than a measurement.

The biggest takeaway. You _must_ fix 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 90 Hz, before you move on to anything else.

Absorption is going to be the most important fix here. The most effectively way to do that is mass. I don't have the money for anything from Dennis Foley. BTW: He really does know his shit and is a totally awesome guy!

I have a mixture of ASC Tube Traps and GIK Bass Traps in my room. I have a pretty long post in the room treatment thread as well.

/Ron

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Scott in mich on 12/11/18 at 20:28:12

Hey Ron,

Did a little more measuring with the Vandersteen's:

and the Betsy's:

I only have 4 monster bass traps right now. My plan is to get 4 soffits - one in each corner and do the same with t-40 scopus units. I'll play around a bit with the monsters to see what works best later. The drop at 55hz seems consistent, but I'm hoping the added bass traps will help there also. I'm also a little worried about a dead sounding room, so I'll likely opt for the range limiters on the soffits.

I did a spreadsheet comparing the absorption of the Acoustic Fields ACDA traps and some in the GIK line:

The absorption tests posted on Acoustic Fields site for the ACDA units were done a long time ago and the units then were smaller, so I just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that the absorption rate was equal per cubic inch and adjusted for size. The main problem for me with Acoustic Fields are his units are so massive. Up to 250lbs and almost as big as a refrigerator. Looking at my spreadsheet, I'm certainly leaning toward GIK. I should probably add ASC in there and see how they shake out.

Title: Re: Treatment advice
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/12/18 at 17:47:07

Quote:

Dennis knows his stuff though - they are that big and heavy because they definitely make an impact.

If you are able to DIY, you might do some research on Helmholtz resonator type bass traps - They would still have to be pretty big to get down to 55Hz, but you should build them in a shape that suits your space. Think like building a ported subwoofer box, except your tuning the size and port to eat 55Hz rather than boost subwoofer output.