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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Room Treatment >> Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1509216617 Message started by Ron on 10/28/17 at 19:50:17 |
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Title: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/28/17 at 19:50:17 I am going to embark on a reset of my small listening room. My equipment is essentially set, now I am [finally] going to focus on room treatment. Will be using REW and a measurement mic to quantify the improvements as well as providing my opinion/feedback. I will have a floor plan posted shortly. Stay Tuned! -Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 03:05:00 Equipment: - Decware Torii Jr - Decware ZP3 - Decware ZROCK2 - HR-1 Dimensions: 11' W x 12' 4" L x 10' H Attached a layout of the room with no other furniture. Also included the elevation of the wall, which is something that I need to work around when treating the room. Currently looking at ASC TubeTraps and SoundPanels as a start. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 03:11:46 Dropping 6-9' of TubeTraps in the front corners of the room. These also have a treble diffusor to ensure that I don't make the room too dead. ASC IsoThermal Tube Trap: https://www.acousticsciences.com/products/isothermal-tubetrap And then a selection of one of the following: ASC SoundPlank: https://www.acousticsciences.com/products/sound-plank ASC SoundPanel: https://www.acousticsciences.com/products/sound-panel ASC CinemaPanel: https://www.acousticsciences.com/products/cinema-panel |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 03:21:13 Here is my mock-up with the ASC panels, I would need to do this in stages. I still need to figure out what to do with the window. I have a heavy curtain with a heavy backing on it, but still room for improvement. That is all for now. Ciao, Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by JD on 10/29/17 at 03:47:09 Hi Ron, Is this a dedicated listening room or tv/video as well? If it strictly for listening how about putting the speakers on either side of the window with the console below the window? Facing the window as you listen. In my listening room diffusion plays a much larger role than absorption. Always room dependent. I admire your drive. Very challenging and rewarding at the same time this journey we are on. JD |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 03:53:46 Thanks JD! It has crossed my mind... I can try that for sure. I would have nightmares if the door opened too close to my beloved HR-1s. Another issue is I am unable to fit a corner trap where the entry is. That said, this room is going to need a great deal of absorption. Going to get a MiniDSP measurement mic and take some readings with the room bare but here is one I did previously. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 13:40:09 I will be using the following to gather measurement data to show progress and quantify the improvements made. Measurement Device: https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1 Measurement Software: http://www.roomeqwizard.com |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Archie on 10/29/17 at 18:27:32 I know practically nothing about treating a room but in past threads, HR1s have been placed anywhere from toe-in to toe-out. I would guess that the amount of toe would change your absorption/diffuser locations? I think Lonely Raven keeps his treatments mobile. Just a thought. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 19:27:50 Archie, Good plan. I agree, having the mobility is going to be important. The TubeTraps made by ASC are also Treble diffusors on half, allowing me to "tune" the room so to speak. With such a small room I don't want to make it too dead. The TubeTraps will be completely moveable and stackable until I reach the absorption that I desire. As far as the wall panels, I need to come up with a plan that doesn't ruin the aesthetics of the room (it is the first room on the right as you enter the house). I was thinking the GIK ArtPanels with scatter plates to do double duty with both diffusion and absorption. -Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 10/29/17 at 19:33:17 Here is my 2nd stab at a plan for the acoustic panels. Tubes and GIK ArtPanels have been approved by the wife. I will be doing a measurement and talking with ASC and GIK this week. That is all for now. -Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/01/17 at 21:04:54 Here is a room sim based on speaker placement and room size. No treatment. Going to measure the room again next as a baseline. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/03/17 at 00:46:42 Ok, so it has been a while since an update. I got my measurement mic and REW setup and rocking. Some interesting initial results. Signal Path: Laptop > Torii Jr > HR-1 Here is the full frequency response of the room. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/03/17 at 00:48:05 Here is the decay chart for the room, some major low hanging fruit here. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/03/17 at 00:51:39 TubeTraps arrive on Monday. I am getting 6' of TubeTraps for the front corners. Once setup, I will re-run the measurement and see where I stand. That is all for now, I will keep everyone posted and also upload pictures of the TubeTraps and the room on Monday! Ciao, Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Acetone on 11/03/17 at 21:43:26 Looks like your going down the right path. I know you time and patience will pay back big dividends!! Keep the posts coming. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Lonely Raven on 11/04/17 at 04:04:27 That dip at 80hz is soul crushing! I'm betting that's room dimensions hurting you there. I need to find my measurement mic and take measurements of my tiny room. I know my RT60 times are off the charts - I know I've got bad comb filtering as well. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/05/17 at 09:49:54 Acetone - Thanks! Will do. Lonely Raven - Yes, I couldn't have said it better myself. I am hoping the TubeTraps are going to help some in that arena. This was without the ZROCK in place as it is back at the mothership right now. I will be interested to see how it impacts it. Another measurement coming on Monday/Tuesday after the TubeTraps arrive. I am beyond excited to see what impact they have. Thanks, Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/05/17 at 20:19:52 While I wait for the tube traps to arrive, I thought I would post an actual picture of the room. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Lonely Raven on 11/06/17 at 16:58:43 I think my room is only a foot or two longer than yours, so we're doing ver similar builds and will have similar issues. We are going to need a ton of low frequency absorption to deal with our big nulls. It's really a losing battle right from the get go. I've got projects on top of projects, on top of projects....but one more for me to add to it is building a helmholtz resonator bass trap for my room...after I take measurements of course. :) |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 11/06/17 at 19:44:42 TubeTraps are in! I quickly grabbed some measurements and listened while home for lunch... First Reaction: I am very impressed with the increase in texture of the bass. Also less muddy on the low end. Attaching the both responses of the room on one chat. Red: No Treatment Green: + 4x 13" IsoThermal TubeTraps in front corners. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Jeff1 on 11/09/17 at 04:00:59 I didn't notice or missed it but keep in mind treating the ceiling as well. Upper corners for sure and the meeting point of the wall and ceiling and ceiling above at the first reflection spots similar to your walls. Looks like you have a rug down so your floor is treated somewhat already. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by jpv on 11/10/17 at 20:27:59 Ron, Can you post or send me the MDAT? I'd like to look at that the traps are doing for you room. John |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by jpv on 12/06/17 at 02:33:03 Ron, Any updates? |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 12/29/17 at 10:52:07 Sorry for the delay in updates. I also stopped receiving emails on this thread. I'll be sure to check back more often. The MDAT file is 12.2MB, Decware forums will only allow a 1MB upload. Ceiling will be tough based on the location of the room in the house (it is the first room when you walk in. Long term the listening room will be relocated upstairs and be purpose-built from the start. Now that the tube traps are in, I am looking for my next-step. 1. Front Wall - 3x (24" x 48" x 4") Full-Range Absorption 2. Side Wall - 2x (24" x 48" x 4") First Reflection Absorption, Each Side 3. Rear Wall / Window - Floor Standing 2x (24" x 60" x 4") Absorption Due to the trim/molding the front-wall will be the easiest to install. I also still have my Upright Piano in the room which is not helping the acoustics, as well as blocking my ability to treat one of the side walls. Eventually, I will be adding 5 more IsoThermal TubeTraps to the corners, two more up front to reach the ceiling, and 3 more in my one-treatable rear corner. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 12/30/17 at 12:07:31 Here is the decay graph before treatment. Pretty bad issues in this room, clearly. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 12/30/17 at 12:09:43 After the initial 6 tube traps, things got a bit better, but not perfect. Looking to make the next improvement to the room now. I am either thinking side-walls with full-range absorption or dropping two floor standing full range absorption in from of the rear window in the room. Trying to prioritize the upgrades for what would have the best/largest impact on sound improvement. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Tripwr1964 on 01/28/18 at 17:23:07 ron you have any measurements with the hr1's further out into the room. realize you don't have much space,,, but those are really tight to wall and with big console in middle. i'd think the imaging would be lacking a bit. able to do anything that 80hz mode? very interested cause i have a similar issue. thks for the post! |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 01/29/18 at 12:24:10 Update: Adding rear wall bass trapping, using the GIK 4" floorstanding bass traps to slip between my rear window and curtains for invisible room treatment. Tripwr1964: I am pulling out the HR-1s this evening to measure, you read my mind (that is now my new normal listening location) imaging is an order of magnitude better. -Ron |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Lon on 01/29/18 at 20:36:39 I'm not familiar with that Ron but the ZP3 has a much larger power supply, tube rectification and regulation. . . it should sound considerably better is my guess. Be sure to let us know. I would be surprised if you didn't love the ZP3. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 01/30/18 at 13:45:18 Here is the latest measurement, HR-1s pulled out an extra foot into the room. Red: Original un-treated room Green: After 6' x 13" Tube Traps in front corners Blue: After 2x 24" x 60" x 4" Floorstanding GIK Bass Traps on Rear Wall |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Archie on 01/30/18 at 17:01:41 I can't read/interpret these graphs. Did pulling the HR1s out help? I've never noticed much difference in my room, although it's been a couple years since I tried. |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 12/01/18 at 18:57:41 Pulling HR-1's out helped quite a bit. I lessened the toe-in as well. Update: I just got home and dropped down Full House Carpet Pad for Improved Absorption: https://www.commercial-carpetcushion.com/carpet-cushion/full-house/ I can't recommend this enough. It was only $80 for an 8x10 area rug. Night and day difference! Will take measurements this afternoon. Next update: Adding Sound Planks & Rear Corner Tube Traps (they ship out Monday)! |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Ron on 12/01/18 at 20:54:46 Measurement before the new Tube Traps and Sound Planks arrive... |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Brian on 06/13/19 at 04:18:00 Any update? Fascinating project! Brian |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Dana on 06/13/19 at 16:53:42 I'm trying to get my arms around room acoustics so this thread is a fascinating read. Are you familiar with the Dr Geddes website? http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/papers.aspx I don't understand the math but but think he may really be on to something about sound reproduction. Another alternative is an active bass trap. https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/093536-bag-end-e-trap-electronic-bass-trap Any thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Project: Small Listening Room Treatment Log Post by Brian on 06/14/19 at 04:05:19 I did not know of that web site. His paper on Waveguide design is interesting, where he talks about the importance of minimum diffraction to sound quality. Brian |
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