Title: Re: Tube Rollin
Post by will on 12/15/19 at 02:00:17
Sorry it took a while to get back. I wanted to listen to a lot of ECC189, PCC189, PCC88/7DJ8, and ECC88/6DJ8’s before responding. Generalizing, these are more open/less dense sounding tubes in direct comparison to most E88CC/6922s. Sounding like the power is turned down a bit, shifting the balance a little away from bass can leave more space throughout. Less focussed/dense, more spacious, they tend toward increased fine detail and empty space, offering more apparent harmonic information, ambience, textures, air...
Within this, the ECCs tend a bit toward warm, and PCCs a bit toward open definition and dynamics, both usually good at fine detail in space.
That said, especially PCC189 and ECC189 are similar. Some of each warmer and textured, and some of each more open and focussed, blind testing, it could be difficult to say which type is which.
Volume-wise here, I would say ECC189 and PCC189 are often (but not always) closer to ECC88s, and PCC88s seem a little more powerful, but still less than E88CC/6922s. Assuming this translates, though likely not noticeable for systems with plenty of headroom, if a system using E88CCs is on the edge of distortion at favored listening levels, these slightly lower key tubes could take that edge further.
Within a given type, design and materials influence sound, reflected in company and vintage choices. Even within the "bigger three," Phillips, Holland; Siemens, Germany; and Mullard, though each tend to have “company” character different from one another, there are also lots of individual variations within each company. And there are a lot of nice tubes of these types outside the more ubiquitous makers...way too much for me to cover.
Then with differences in system/rooms, including how each tube in a tube set influences the others....it is tricky to predict results. In this context, excess high clarity tubes more easily fell toward hardness before modifying my amps with faster, more revealing, spacious, and textured sounding parts and wires. As important, my front end is made up of highly resolving and fine-tuned components and cables, avoiding truncating very fine information. Having sorted out many impediments to resolution and musical transparency, all told, I think this system is exceptionally resolving of musical complexity that helps solve hardness without masking. Impressions are based in this "forgiveness" derived from reducing limitations on musically refined fine detail/resolution and spaciousness. All systems complex and individual, what we hear from a tube might be different, but comparing tubes to tubes can reveal predictable tendencies.
A slight wildcard here, I am working on refining updated HR1s to best fit my system/room needs, gradually increasing dynamic resolution, and supporting this, fine-tuning bass and warmth balances. Though very close now, the speakers remain just a little dark in the mid-bass for me, causing some recordings prone that way to be a little heavy, slowing down bass, while slightly overpowering space and fine detail. So while waiting for caps, resistors, wires and drivers to fully burn in, I am compensating with cleaner Tesla 11TA31s (thanks Lon) as input voltage regulators. Normally these tubes are a bit lean for me, but now, my sound is better than ever, revealing ZYGI's new driver and crossover design beautifully.... Really nice harmonic complexity, space and spacial differentiation, extension and density. As I try to balance clarity with musicality, darker recordings are tending to warm but not thick, while being fast!.... And clean recordings, I am trying for that delicate balance of open spaciousness with subtly sweet textures and warmth. With the tubes I am using, changing to the Tesla VRs as the speakers and I adapt to modifications helps me get the balance closer to what I am trying for...the theme of this thread. To me, tuning to get the most across a lot of recordings is a tricky balance, but the more refined the system becomes, the more it is worth the effort, giving beautiful music from many recording balances.
Going further for this test, I started with open sounding tubes in all 8 tube positions (Torii-5, CSP3-3), seeing if I could take clarity over the top. I historically use calmer OB3 voltage regulators over OA3s, and 75C1s (=OC2 but sound more complex to me). But now in place of the 75C1s, I am running the Teslas. They are a OA2 equivalent, but they make the inputs sound less lean, warmer, and a little more powerful to me than OA2s I have, yet they push less than 75C1s. The Tesla 11TA31, more spacious, brings out more harmonic information with complexity in this case, but could be lean with different combinations. With open and powerful Tungsol 7027As for power, PCC189s or PCC88s in the inputs of the Torii and CSP3, as well as the outputs of the CSP3, it was very clean! Some combinations got uncomfortably so, to a point of hard edges on harder recordings. But, switching one of these cleaner inputs with more textured and slightly warmer variations of the same tubes, it was good, some combinations very nice! And after replacing the 7027As with also open, but less powerful/focussed, and more warm/textured RCA 807 power tubes I typically use, most open combinations of input tubes were good.
Ultimately I tend to prefer a more open/revealing, fast, and less dark sound, but I do it with a combination of clearer/cleaner and warmer/more dense tubes, increasing complexity when "right." Along with my modified speakers and amps being a little warm, warmer tubes with less finesse in resolving low mids/mid-bass can push the balance too far into darkness for me. So here, it takes a good tube to notably warm without excess masking of fine detail, space and textures, especially in the low mids and mid bass. I can fine-tune focus and space of a tube set with gain balancing my ZBIT and CSP3, increasing tube flexibility, but fine detail in space across the spectrum, always tricky, is trickier with tubes tending dark.
Exploring PCC88, ECC189 and PCC189 mainly, after initial tests, back to my usual 807s (with adapters), and supporting the Teslas VR opening compensation, instead of my usual warmish Mullard E88CC with parasol getters for CSP3 power, I am using a more neutral ALGRA E88CC with A-frames and gold pins...a good German seller said Mullard made. Finally, for rectifiers, Telefunken and Valvo RGN1064 (4 volt, needing special adapters) warmish with good resolution of fine detail and space.
A long lead up to: When things are right, open/spacious tubes can be amazing tools toward a sense of "liveness," something I love.
Tubes:
NOS ECC88s, popular alternatives to more focussed E88CCs, price often reflects this. Moderately reduced bass contributes to a tendency to help resolve complexity, usually more noticeable in the midrange. A sometimes associated wild card, with some ECC88s, bass can get a little too soft/thick for me. But there are a lot of very nice, well balanced ECC88s. Early sixties Bugle Boys have been popular for a long time for good reasons. They have an open sound with good balance, textured and spacious much like many PCC88, PCC189, ECC189s. Also some late 50's/early 60's Siemens are to me a very nice tube for the type. This particular tube has a flat getter riser with a groove impressed in the center. The riser base starts wide, narrowing part way up on one side, forming something like an A shape support for a medium large hallow getter. Open, textured, with warmish extension, it is quite similar to also nice Siemens-made ECC189s that look identical.
In my case, these Siemens tubes are both examples of nice euro tubes hiding behind RCA, GE, or CBS labels, typically having "made in Great Britain, made in Germany, or made in Holland" on the tubes. Historically, being "off" brands usually leaves them more available and less costly.
Also in recent years PCC88s have become popular with increasing prices, but worth checking out for the PCC88 sound if it seems appropriate to system needs. Relatively powerful and balanced, though a little less bass than E88CCs, they are usually more articulate, fast, and spacious than ECC88s. I used PCC88s almost exclusively in my Toriis for quite a long time. Then after finding a pair of late 50s Siemens-made ECC88s, I started an affair with them.
During this time, I often considered trying PCC189s and ECC189s, but never got around to it until Lon mentioned he had tried some in his Torii. Checking several out, I also found they can be really nice tubes, and less known, a good value. Most I have cost ±30 per pair. But since then, they too have come up in popularity and price, though still good values to me. And with care and patience, you can find nice tubes of any of these types relatively inexpensively.
A few cautions if you are not familiar with Ebay tube buying. It seems more sellers are putting up tubes these days with decent electronic matching, but not matching construction-wise. Lately I saw a fancy "pair" of E88CC, one with gold pins, and one with steel pins while also having different O getter shapes and diameters. Though they were electronically a good match, I doubt they would sound the same.
So, along with good electronic matching and strength, I avoid even subtle construction differences. Even when the insides look identical, and the glass shape is a little different,...or the micas, wires, plates etc are placed a little differently in the glass, to me this indicates a possibility of different production/materials, and possibly variations in sound. Not always a deal, but I like to play it safe.
Looking at the seller sales numbers and review ratings is helpful...lots of good tube sellers on Ebay, but I always look carefully at test scores and construction matching for pairs.
Favorite ECC189s I have are mostly early 60s, a good time for quality tubes. Some are Siemens-made and labelled, or labelled GE, RCA...; or Heerlin plant, Holland tubes with Philips, Miniwatt, Adzam or other labels; and Great Britain-made, Mullard or IEC labelled, sometimes labelled by US companies or others like Haltron and Zaerix... Tubes made by these "big three" in the late 50s/early 60s tend to offer good "tastes" of a type. That said, I like all the ECC189s I have tried. And I need to remind myself, burnin for true-NOS is real.
Philips-Holland, Siemens and Mullard made tubes, each show family and individual "flavors." In a quick test, a pair of early 60s Philips Miniwatt ECC189s with smallish O getters, are quite dynamic and clear with quiet warmth and notably big spacial information. An RCA labelled Siemens (mentioned above) is a bit warmer and softer, a little less dynamic and clear, but nicely textured and musical, a tube I have used a lot....A GE labelled, smallish O getter Mullard is warmer yet, but still resolving. Often associated with "warmth," some darker tubes can be less resolving and dynamic, some even veiled, micro information masked especially lower down. These GE/Mullards passed that test, sounding like many (but not all) early 60s Mullards, warm but complex and resolving.
I tend to prefer a mix of warm and clear tubes supporting one another, averaging toward spacious and revealing with some warmth. And even with my amps being more resolving, I tend to prefer O getters over A-frame's slightly tighter sound. But depending on everything else, tighter sound can be an advantage. A pair of Sel Lorenz A-frame PCC189s (best I can tell '67 Heerlen, Holland date code) sound really good to me...extended, spacious, articulate, and smooth. The O getter Sel Lorenz I have, also 67 Heerlen, is slightly softer, a little less articulated, with finer detail textures, a sound that is seductive to me, also really good. PCC189s labelled Phillips Miniwatt with medium O getters, early 60s Holland/Heerlen, are clear, a bit bigger seeming, spacious and dynamic, while being complex and warm. Especially this pair I can hear are new, beginning to loosen up with more micro information after quite a few hours of play. Also early 60s, Mullard labelled, large O getters, are a step warmer, often the case with Mullards, but these are quite revealing and textured also. This is "true warmth" to me, where darkness does not damage articulation and fine information.
Some Siemens labelled A-frames (Siemens/Halske codes), so far are perhaps the most dynamic of the PCC189s I have, vivid with micro and spacial information, and a little bigger bass than most. Also some Siemens PCC189s, very close kin to some Siemens PCC88s, with the same getter style...straight wires going up to the O getter, both are often labelled Telefunken.
These PCC189s have '64 date codes and are less obviously clear and powerful compared to their look alike PCC88 siblings, one of the clearest PCC88s I have tried. I think this is in part due to their notable power and extension showing what they have more. A really good tube, I don't use this PCC88 often, only if I need relatively powerful opening to balance a warm tube set. Whereas its "little brother" the Siemens PCC189, is clear, but a little less boldly, and textured enough to sound less demanding.
I won’t go much more into PCC88s, but generally, I might suggest 60s Philips/Holland, Mullard, or Siemens made tubes as relatively safe to explore. Of these big companies, not always, but often with these tube types, Holland tubes tend to be relatively neutrally balanced, dynamic and clean, with quiet warmth. Siemens tubes of these types are usually quite revealing in slightly different ways to the Heerlen made tubes, or resolving with a different flavor of warmth, but quite revealing in general. Great Britain Mullards, tend more often toward warm, though these types I have are still nicely resolving. Outside these, to get a feel for this tube type, some relatively inexpensive tests might be National (Matsushita), a little warm and predictable for me as I recall, but a good tube with good complexity. Lots of people love them, and with care, they can still be gotten inexpensively. Also, Teslas, a very clear PCC88, as clear as early Siemens, but with a more spacious, less powerful feel as I recall. I like them, but they are clean, perhaps too open, or perhaps just right depending on the rest. Another less costly PCC88 test with a more unusual/individual sound, big, with pleasantly revealing and spacious mids, are Zaerix labelled, made in Russia. It is a fat tube with almost square micas and a classic Russian "flying saucer" getter.
Lots of interesting tubes around to explore, and if 6922/E88CCs are a little dense and forceful in a setup, some of these may be worth checking out. I could go on (even more!), but I hope this helps.
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