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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
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Message started by Randy in Caintuck on 05/14/14 at 18:52:15

Title: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/14/14 at 18:52:15

If anyone reading this is already familiar with these products, just chalk it up to Randy in Caintuck being "late to the party" once again .....

If you are not familiar with the products, methinks that you are in for an audio treat.

Despite the fact that many readers of the forum are vinyl buffs or have set up computer based audio systems, the venerable RedBook CD format refuses to go away and there are still many of us with extensive (and growing) collections of CDs.

I have been very happy with my digital front end and was just introduced to something that has made it even better ..... much, much better in fact. During my past several visits to the home of Parker Audio Dave, I was greatly impressed with the sound he is getting from his "big rig". I was actually hearing some things from his system that were lacking in my system, despite the fact that our digital front ends and amplification are almost identical.

Dave's Excalibur speakers are truly superb, but my various speakers are nothing shabby so I was thinking to myself that there was something else at play that was giving me a severe case of "audio envy".

Last night, Dave paid a visit to my listening room and brought with him something that I'm convinced is at least partially responsible for the incredible sound I am hearing at his place (and now at my place) ..... the TruVoice CD dampers from Digital Systems & Solutions.

I was already using another brand of damping disk in my CEC belt drive transport which does improve the sound a bit ..... but nothing on the level of what the Digital Systems & Solutions product does.

Up to now, I would never have believed that something this "simple" could have this level of impact on the sound ..... but, hearing is believing ..... and I am now a believer.

Please notice that I said "simple", not "cheap" ..... and these dampers are not in the latter camp.
There are two versions, a blue one at 129.00 and a red one at 249.00.
According to George at Digital Systems & Solutions, one works better in some systems and the other better in other systems ..... or a combination of the two in yet some other systems.

Dave and I spent a couple of hours listening to music that we are VERY familiar with and wouldn't you know it ..... the more expensive red disk worked heads and shoulders better in my system .....

I really wish that I could say the improvements to my system are subtle, but they are not.
All of the audio descriptors and buzzwords apply to what the damper does for the music .....
1 - It eliminates almost all (if not all) of the annoying "edge" on CDs that have one ..... while actually improving detail ..... amazing .....

2 - Increases bass response while "tightening" it at the same time and making it more tuneful and coherent.
3 - To my ears, cymbals have always been a weak spot in digital recordings ..... the damper adds some serious realism to cymbals.
4 - More silent background.
5 - Wider and deeper image with more (and better defined) space between instruments and vocals.
6 - Improved low level detail.

The music has a sense of "ease" that does not exist when the damper is removed. I was able to push the volume beyond what was formerly possible with no fatigue ..... simply put, the overall sound is more musical and believable.

The longer we listened and the more the amplifier warmed up, the better everything sounded.

I have never been a big believer in every "tweak" that comes down the road and frankly have found many of them to be disappointing over the years ..... but to me, this is the real deal.

Dave is of the opinion that one of the main functions of the damper is to reduce "jitter" ..... and I think he is right about this.

$250.00 might sound like a lot of money for a "piece of plastic", but this is one very special piece of plastic .....

*George has informed me that the damper is actually a "proprietary carbon fiber and filler combination" of his design *

Digital Systems & Solutions is so certain that you will hear a big improvement that they offer a very unusual warranty :
"A money back guarantee that includes shipping both ways plus $10.00" if you don't like the product.

http://audiogeorge.com/

Highly recommended.

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by DBC on 05/15/14 at 15:51:29

Has anyone tried the Super Black Hole mat from Herbies Audio ??? I have no experience with these mats but Randy's post prompted me to do a Google search.

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/cdmat.htm

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by mark58 on 05/15/14 at 16:08:54

That looks interesting and much more affordable than the previous poster's CD mats. I might get the grunge buster mat too at $10.. Once I have my HR-1s broken in and other things dialed in, I'll make a large Herbies order for isocups, tenderfeet, turn table mat and these CD mats...and anything else I can think of. Any more suggestions from current users? Mark.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by seikosha on 05/15/14 at 17:26:28

Is it safe to assume that in using these that there is no danger of the mat jamming up in the cd transport? That would be my biggest worry.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/15/14 at 19:35:36

Hey guys,

I have used several of the Herbie's products over the years with good success .... and currently own the Black Hole damper.

It does a good job ..... but IMHO this is one of those situations where you get what you pay for. The TruVoice damper improves the sound to a much greater degree in my system.

I originally purchased the Super Black Hole damper because I just could not justify paying 250.00 for a CD damper ..... however, when Dave brought his to my listening room it took all of 30 seconds for me to decide that it is money well spent.

As always, your mileage may vary, but to me the warranty offered by the vendor takes any risk out of the situation.

As to the damper jamming in the transport, my primary transport is a top loading belt drive unit ..... however, I also own an Onyx (Music Hall) front loading player. I tried the damper in the Onyx with no problems.

Happy listening,

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by 4krow on 05/15/14 at 19:37:53

I have never had such a problem with jamming, but some of the heavier mats may be an added burden to the drive motor of the CD transport.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/15/14 at 19:40:09

Hi 4krow,

Both the blue and red dampers are very light weight ..... whatever the material is, it is low mass.

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/15/14 at 21:47:32

An additional thought .....

I must admit that the thought of paying 250.00 for a CD damper will certainly raise some eyebrows ..... even among hard core music lovers.

However, after thinking about this I have come to this conclusion .....

Over the years, I have owned several different DACs ranging from some very inexpensive ones to a Zanden 5000 MK IV ($10,000.00 retail price).

I can say with certainty that the difference this damper makes in my system is as great as the difference between the worst DAC I owned and the Zanden.

I currently use a Camelot Uther DAC (with current updates) because it sounds as good to my ears as the Zanden did with less concern for maintenance if something bad happened to the Zanden and I would have had to ship it back to Japan for service. Even so, the Zanden was a SUPERB sounding piece.

So, would I spend $250.00 for a great sounding DAC ?
In a New York minute I would .....

If that is the case, for $250.00 the TruVoice damper is a bargain.

I have heard this damper in two different systems and it works in both of them. With the money back guarantee, it is certainly worth hearing for anyone who is serious about CD playback.

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by maddog07 on 05/16/14 at 02:21:35

Hi Randy.... long time no talk... this is Mike in KC

I speculate the damper likely has a "flywheel effect" on the spinning disk thus stabilizing speed, in vinyl terms reducing wow & flutter which in CD terms is reduction of jitter.

Take all your CD's and transfer them to a "hard disk" or solid state drive... and play them back from that source and I am almost certain you will experience the exact same type of "difference"(improvement) you've described with the disk damper.

I had trouble accepting that my music sounded better when sourced from my sever than it did from my very competent CD transport(Theta w/stable platter) - all other variables remained constant. I had such cognitive dissonance over this, that I sprung it on four of my audio buds without them knowing what I was doing to see "if they noticed"... they did - everyone of them. So I'm pretty confident this is not a psychoacoustic phenomenon.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/16/14 at 12:47:31

Howdy Mike,

Good to hear from you .....

Normally, I would agree 100% on the "flywheel effect" thought ..... but, my transport is a top loading, belt drive CEC which uses a heavy metal puck on top of the CD. The TruVoice damper is extremely light, so I don't think it is contributing much to the (already excellent) flywheel effect.

I used to own a Camelot Morganna CD player (used as a transport) which used the stable platter mechanism. It was a very fine transport ..... but I like the CEC even better. There is something special about it and I love what it does for the music. Almost analog .....

On a different note, I have been corresponding with David at Audio Nirvana and he is getting ready to release two new drivers in his "Classic" series ..... a 10" and a 12" to accompany the existing 8" version.

No whizzer cone ..... no phase plug .....

I'm excited and looking forward to hearing them .....

Best wishes,

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lonely Raven on 05/16/14 at 16:00:54

I agree with Mike, I was stunned when my ripped music sounded better than the original CD on my Oppo. I even wrote Oppo about it after the AVScience guys laughed me out of their forums, and Oppo agreed with me that the reduced jitter of a ripped copy is why I'm hearing better sound.

Not only do I playback my music off hard drive, but I got a USB powered hard drive so I have no (cheap) external power supplies adding noise to the system.

It does make a difference.

I'm done with silver discs at this point. And I'm honestly debating about tape...tape sounds amazing, but it's a hassle compared to digital files. I think the Direct Stream DAC might be my deciding factor. No more CD stabilizing gimmicks for me.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lon on 05/16/14 at 17:17:28

My PS Audio PerfectWave Transport also produces and transmits extremely low jitter from discs, thanks to multiple readings AND a digital lens, so I'm keeping the discs and the amazing sound and I am not going to mess around with disc mats. It may make a difference, but I'm so stunned with the sound I'm getting now that I don't want to spend the money or take a risk of damage.

Contrary to the new paradigm I actually love the discs and the handling of the physical objects and loathe using files.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/16/14 at 17:22:57

"Contrary to the new paradigm I actually love the discs and the handling of the physical objects and loathe using files."

Hi Lon,

Yep ..... I work on computers all day and am happy to leave them behind at quitting time .....

Besides ..... my top loading belt drive CD transport goes a long way toward soothing my "analog envy" .....

To each their own, I say .....

Best wishes,

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lon on 05/16/14 at 17:27:13

That's a good thing to say. I understand why people love teh files and yet I don't feel the same way. Nor do I need or value the "convenience."

Though my analog envy is sated with my analog front end. I enjoy having both lps and cds, a lot. The Rega and ZP3 are an amazing sonic foundation! Just surprises me every listening session.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by maddog07 on 05/18/14 at 01:11:51

Hello again Randy,

I had the CEC for awhile long ago when it first came out. No doubt, I agree with you 100% it does have a "soothing" or "analog" effect on digititis... which was a desirable thing in the day. I ultimately found it to be a bit too much of a good thing in my rig. But as you know, "synergy" is key. I can certainly believe it being a good fit in some systems.
What you describe hearing with the damper is pretty much how I would describe what I hear from music sourced from a hard disk or SSD versus it coming from a spinning 4.7" piece of spinning aluminum. What really amazes me, is that after nearly 30 years... we're still discovering ways to get more music and better sound from the CD format - who would a thought?

My "objective" with a file/server based system... was the staggering convenience of having every piece of music I own available at my finger tips without having to get out of my listening chair - with just a tap or swipe on the screen of my iPad. It has increased my enjoyment of my system at least 3x fold. Listening is a "unwind" and "relaxation" thing for me. I usually fall asleep with the music playing. Getting up and down out of my chair every few minutes to change disc, well... it just defeats the purpose. Plus I rarely like every track on an album... so "file based" lets me choose what songs I want to hear and in what order - then let'em play! It's freaking fantastic! ;D Not to mention the new music I discover from Spotify, Moog, Pandora, etc. by streaming off my mac to my DAC. Eventually - * You will be assimilated - resistance is futile !!!!

Dicks did tell me about the new Classic series drivers. I knew about the 8, but not the larger ones. The 8 reminds me of the Wild Burro driver. Dicks claims the current models with phase plugs, wizzers and Alnico or neodymium magnets are still better than the new Classic's. So I'm not sure what the point is. But I need to hear them. Looking at his posted graphs the Classic 8 may have a "smoother" upper mid and high frequency response.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lonely Raven on 05/18/14 at 17:34:17

Quote:

My "objective" with a file/server based system... was the staggering convenience of having every piece of music I own available at my finger tips without having to get out of my listening chair - with just a tap or swipe on the screen of my iPad. It has increased my enjoyment of my system at least 3x fold. Listening is a "unwind" and "relaxation" thing for me. I usually fall asleep with the music playing. Getting up and down out of my chair every few minutes to change disc, well... it just defeats the purpose. Plus I rarely like every track on an album... so "file based" lets me choose what songs I want to hear and in what order - then let'em play! It's freaking fantastic! ;D Not to mention the new music I discover from Spotify, Moog, Pandora, etc. by streaming off my mac to my DAC. Eventually - * You will be assimilated - resistance is futile !!!!

I agree with this in a big way - I'm pretty sure I've posted this before but; with the Oppo and it's network capability, I can literally purchase music, and have it downloaded directly to my server and played back within 5 minutes of *wanting/discovering* it. Then, lets say I'm listening to some new music someone recommended, and a part of it makes me think of Hendrix, so with a flip of the finger I'm jumping to a Hendrix album or specific track...which makes me think of Stevie Ray Vaughan, flick of the finger and I'm there, which makes me think of Rolling Stones, flick of the finger I'm there, which makes me think of Zepplin, flick of the finger etc. I go for hours letting the mood of the music guide me to the next album or specific track.

It also helps when I'm "sharing" with friends. The other day Palomino mentioned a song he likes to show off imaging, he could share the MP3 of the tune on DropBox - I sample it, enjoy it, then (digitally) track down and buy the whole album. Same goes in reverse, I'll find something I enjoy and want to share to see if he likes and so on.

As long as hardware like PS Audio's DirectStream makes digital sound it's best, and gear like the Oppo BDP-105 make it (relatively) inexpensive and easy to playback - I think physical media is quickly going to fade to niche market.

The only drawback I see to this is in a Post-Apocalyptic world, all that great music would be lost - no "trading books for food" Heinlein style. :)

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/19/14 at 14:24:44

Quote :
"But as you know, "synergy" is key. I can certainly believe it being a good fit in some systems."

Hi Mike,

For years, I have championed the "total system" concept.
Synergy is what makes or breaks a system. A piece of gear might sound great in one system and terrible in another.

Anything new that goes in my system has to work with everything else. The CEC transport is one of those pieces that does good (and unique) things for the music IMHO ..... so the DAC, amplification and speakers have all been chosen to take advantage of its signature.

I'm 60 years old, but still enjoy "getting up to change CDs" ..... the only convenience that I care about is the remote volume and balance controls built into my DAC .....

Can't see a computer based front end in my system any time soon ..... maybe when I'm 80 or so .....

Take care,

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lon on 05/19/14 at 14:33:13

I feel the same way Randy about convenience. In fact, I'll go further and say that I don't even have to have a remote for convenience. Having all the music at my fingertips etc. . . how boring!

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lonely Raven on 05/19/14 at 16:11:01

Quote:

Having all the music at my fingertips etc. . . how boring!

I love that we have such differing opinions!

I notice some generational changes - this new generation grew up with the internet, instant access to movies and music, and everything just simply made easy. I'm sure you've seen Paul's comments on his son's audio endeavors tuned to how the current 20-30 somethings use technology and listen to music.

On the flipside, I totally appreciate the ritual of pulling and prepping vinyl, of flipping to the B-side, etc. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to go down the rabbit hole of Reel to Reel so easily; it's got it's own esoteric ritual of prepping and flipping that I appreciate and enjoy.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by mark58 on 05/19/14 at 16:22:52

I'm with Lon on this one. We come from a generation that had to get up to change the channel on our small Black and White TV's to get another of the 5 or 6 stations available. We might even have had to adjust the antenna with each channel change...there was no such thing as cable or satellite TV. We also had to walk or ride our bikes to the store to pick up new music on vinyl...our only option. I also prefer listening to a whole album or at least one side before moving on to something else. So I too like the extra effort needed to listen...makes the tunes that much sweeter. Mark.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lon on 05/19/14 at 16:37:35

Lonely Raven wrote on 05/19/14 at 16:11:01:

I don't read Paul's daily posts or much of what he writes so I don't know that reference.

I'm sure there's generational attitudes at play. And I know a lot of people who enjoy a lot of FREE (i.e. in many cases stolen) music, and then having it all avaialble so simply, and everything plastered onto a PC and/ore a phone. . . .the whole thing cheapens music to me. Music is very important to me. Kindness and affection to and from friends and family may be about the only thing that trumps it. I won't cheapen it. I know it's probably different for others, and that's great, I celebrate diversity. But I'm keeping computers and phones and music separate things, and enjoying browsing my collection.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by will on 05/19/14 at 16:43:32

Has anyone else tried Audio George's UltraBit Platinum? I used it when I used a CD player and it was worth doing for me, but can't quite recall what the specific effects were it has been so long since I changed to my Mac Mini. Is there any chance that it could help with making bit perfect rips??? Weird possibilities do present themselves. I don't think most folks with revealing system/rooms deny the efficacy of good cables anymore, especially digital ones messing with a lot of minds coming from our limited information and logic base.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/19/14 at 17:12:44

Hi Will,

I have used the Ultrabit Platinum with good success ..... but I still have my original bottle (a little goes a long way) and Parker Audio Dave tells me that the "new improved" version works even better.

As a side thought, there may be a generational thing involved in the different preferences people have ..... but I do find it interesting that I do IT work for a living ( using and enjoying computers, tablets and smart phones personally) but choose to keep my music separate from that realm.

It's amazing how things have changed ..... from the labor intensive care and feeding of vinyl to the incredible convenience of music server based systems ..... and there are still plenty of fans in both camps.

I guess my top loading CD transport is somewhere in the middle .....

Randy

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by will on 05/19/14 at 21:30:40

Thanks Randy,

For me the decision to change over to a computer was sound, wanting to eliminate anything the transport does, and beginning with bit perfect data. Then there is the potential for noise from the computer, but I have that sorted out, the tweaked Mini being really quiet....along with USB power isolation, and a quiet Firewire drive for data on a different buss than the DAC. Then there is the software player, and mine is really good. Associated with that, with a lot of exploration, I benefit greatly from some EQ, seriously mitigating the last weaknesses of my system/room, while also allowing small bits for tastes. Doing it directly on the data before the DAC seems (and sounds) ideal. That tipped the scales for me.

This does not mean transports can't sound great...they obviously can, I just wanted to cut them out of the mix. I really like disc boxes too and their written information. I did not savor the idea of extracting the data from all my CDs either, so I did not shift easily. I miss looking at the discs when I want to check out the story or players, but I am glad to have the amazing sound I have with one less thing to coax toward synergy.

Finally it is the music, and I am really thankful to have gear that can make it so real feeling, as I know you are with your top loader!

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by maddog07 on 06/02/14 at 04:37:43

generational... maybe - in some cases. I, like Randy, am in the "I/T" industry over 30 years. I grew up with a black & white TV and no remote. I also genuinely despise computers more with each passing day. They mostly complicate our lives and consume precious time. But once the music is loaded to the Mac mini... which takes all of 5 minutes or less for standard length CD's... it is available at my finger tips from my listening chair. I do not keep my mac mini music server connected to the internet - not required. I do have external drives to back up all my music on and I keep the CD's too.
I find that I listen to music more when it so accessible. I can scroll hundreds(thousands) of albums and when it flashes across the screen, It pings my memory to listen to something that I may not have listened to in years... and it might never come to mind if I had to stand in front of racks and racks of CD's and just look for "what I might want to listen to at the moment". Cheapen the music - hardly - exactly the opposite... I appreciate and cherish music even more, because I actually listen more and to a larger variety because it is so easy to do so...

but for those that follow some ritual to load disks or play vinyl.. more power to you. Nothing wrong with that at all. But there's nothing wrong with using a music server either.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lon on 06/02/14 at 11:32:28

We're all diffferent. The music IS cheapened for me with digital files and their purchase, delivery and playback systems and I can definitely see why it isn't for others.

All that convenience. .. it's the opposite of what I want, and the opposite of it seems to accomplish for me what seems important to you. I'm so very happy with the process and hardware I have and use. It's like a relationship--if you're happy you don't change or stray. I'm keeping with what I have. Nothing of the computer audio route has tempted me to stray. Obviously it works really well for others, and that's great. Progress marches onward. One can live a full and rewarding life while not marching along, that's been true throughut the human experirence.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Palomino on 06/03/14 at 18:23:12

I'm of the older generation, but do like the convenience of going all digital. Cheapen it? Well, in some ways, I'd have to agree.

Meaning I miss the discipline of listening to the entire album (or at least one side). It's a work of art and to get all the value, you need to listen to it in its entirety.

For space considerations, I mostly only ripped only key tracks off each CD. I am finding myself recently going back and ripping the entire disk to get more of the full value, even the songs I don't like as much. Disk space is much cheaper now...

I have been a mix tape creator since the days of 8 tracks (then reel to reel, then cassette, now digital). I do like to create a mood by stringing various songs together. And that's where there is some counter balancing value for me.

Title: Re: Digital Systems & Solutions TruVoice CD damper
Post by Lonely Raven on 06/03/14 at 19:53:20

I just to a big step deeper into digital. (no, didn't order the DirectStream - though the last review really made me want to!).

After selling a bunch more of my rare CDs, I splurged and got a Synology NAS so I can setup a proper redundant drive array to get all my media in one place for streaming and storage. Plus to setup automatic backups of my laptops that I do my photography and other projects on.

I've got two 4TB hard drive, plus a fleet of 2TB and 3TB drives in my server, and a new 4TB drive on the way. This should be plenty for my HD music, CD rips, movies, TV, photos and whatnot.