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OLDER DECWARE GEAR SUPPORT >> TORII MK III >> Cap choices for Mk III
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Message started by hdrider on 01/12/13 at 16:07:47

Title: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by hdrider on 01/12/13 at 16:07:47

I see that there is an addition to the VCap option on the order page for the Torii MkIII, Beeswax. Does anyone have this amp with these caps installed, or heard it or know anything about these? It seems that they must be a viable option or Steve and team would not include them in the choices. I was just thinking of the stock Torii, and the Vcap burn in time seems too daunting (plus the $$$) but am I selling myself short by not investing in better/different cap and is the extra $$ worth it?

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Seshep on 01/13/13 at 00:50:19

I would be very interested in this myself. I hope someone chimes in. As of now I'm planning to save up for the Vcap but would like to know about the beeswax as well. Are they a version of the jupiter used on the new Torii mono?

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lord Soth on 01/13/13 at 10:45:42

I've had my eye on the Torii for quite some time now.

The beeswax Jupiter caps are a very new and recent option.

My guess is that the VCaps have an analytical sound whereas the Beeswax have a warmer tone. Either way, since tubes are involved, you should still be able to tinker with the end result via tube rolling.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 01/14/13 at 00:14:04

I did loads of research, and continue to. I finally decided on (and really like) NOS Russian KY40Y-9 paper in oil. Can't seem to take them out. If I recall correctly, first they were a bit "warm" for my tastes, but after about 50-100 hours they sound very musical to me without drawbacks. And I really like "warmth", but only if it is without detail loss. I am into the sense of players in the room, just a little softened by musicality.

I installed them floated on bluestick to damp vibration and found sound differences depending on distance and coverage of the material on the caps. The best seemed to be about 3/8 inch coverage, and 3/8 high. Got me, but my system/room is very revealing.

Many reviews say Vcaps are the most detailed and revealing, but find them a little coolish, others don't. Frankly I think speakers, other components, cables and room probably have a lot to do with this.

But I also prefer my favorite 7DJ8, 6DJ8 and 6922 over 6N1P which many prefer in there Torri MkIII...soooo.
;)

And cheap enough to try.

From Ebay today ...4X K40Y-9 NEW OLD STOCK 0.1 uf 630V RUSSIAN PAPER IN OIL CAPACITOR PIO .1

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lord Soth on 01/14/13 at 07:27:13

Do those Russian caps sound great because they were naturally super Cryoed in Siberia?

LOL

Seriously speaking,
Thanks for sharing your insight.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 01/14/13 at 16:27:47

I am thinking so!
And you're welcome.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by hdrider on 01/16/13 at 03:08:24

Thanks for the input. I did some research and found the website for the caps in the big monos. I'll make that decision when the time comes to order the amp (just have to sell some gear first!!). Thanks all, GREAT forum!!

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/16/13 at 18:04:31

The beeswax caps we choose as an option for the TORII MKIII are the cryo treated Jupiter HT caps. People think these are going to be warm and cozy sounding caps but they are instead very fast and very neutral. They have higher resolution than the VCAPS and are more organic sounding. Due to this increase in resolution some people will find the VCAPS easier to listen to on digital. The Jupiter caps do not require the insanely long burn-in times of Teflon caps (VCAPS) and I honestly think with better sources, sound better than the VCAPS in this amplifier.

Steve

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by hdrider on 01/17/13 at 05:06:10

Steve- Thank you, very interesting compared to the VCaps. Since I mostly listen to vinyl, the Beeswax sounds like it might be the better path. When the cd play or Pandora is playing, I am usually not listening critically. Again, a great forum. Chris

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by tgarden on 01/17/13 at 18:38:22

Steve, the beeswax caps sound good to me also, as I only listen to vinyl and FM on a modified/restored Tandberg 3001 (using my V-capped Torii III).

Once the weather warms up and I'm listening less often, I'll send the Torri III back to you, to switch from V-caps to the beeswax caps. Maybe someone will have a use for my burned-in V-caps?? (2000 hours+).

Mike in Seattle area

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 01/19/13 at 18:01:26

I am in for some Jupiters. Thanks for the input Steve!

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by vmax on 02/27/13 at 04:25:00

are the beeswax caps, for current TORII MKIII owners, available as an upgrade from Decware.....

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Seshep on 02/27/13 at 05:55:40

Yes, just got mines back. Doing some break in. Already sounds great.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by ryandigital on 07/23/13 at 23:20:29

What is/are the values of those caps?
I might want to replace them when my torii arrives

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 07/26/13 at 18:45:08

Mine are matched .10 uF (Jupiter Beeswax Paper HT) 600v from partsconnexion.

The Wimas that shipped with my Torii MkIII have this on the cap:
0.1
630-
400~

The Jupiter Beeswax Steve put in my Zstage continue to sound better. They started sounding good pretty quickly, but after a few hundred hours, they sound great...like not really there! Can't ask for more by my ears.

I have yet to put in the Jupiters in the Torii. The NOS Russian K40Y-9 Paper in Oil caps I have had in for the last year or so are sounding really good to me, so I feel no pressure, but I am excited to hear the Jupiter's in there and will get to them when I get some extra time.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lon on 07/26/13 at 19:04:35

I love the Jupiters in my Torii. I'd recommend them in a heartbeat. On another board a poster was saying that those he saw for sale had aluminum core, and Steve's are copper. . . . So not sure if those Steve uses can be readily purchased.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 07/26/13 at 19:31:19

Hey Lon,

After talking with Steve about the Jupiter Beeswax caps (some time ago), if I recall correctly, he sounded like they were readily available. I looked around, and only found aluminum foil for the cryo'd Jupiter HT Beeswax/Paper caps. Are you sure Steve is using a copper version of them? Here is the Jupiter web page:
http://jupitercondenser.com/cryo-ht-beeswax-paper-capacitors.html

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lon on 07/26/13 at 20:13:49

I'm only sure in that on the other discussion the person talked with Steve and was told that they were copper. I'm going to see if I can find that correspondence/posting, but the conclusion was Steve was using copper. Right or wrong.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lon on 07/26/13 at 20:41:56

There are two comments by "triple" in this thread:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/im-addicted-to-el34-based-tube-amps-i-need-help.320459/page-2#post-9002828

At first he says Steve says they are copper and only sees aluminum on the website. Then he says:

the round HT Jupiter caps are aluminum foil only. The copper caps are produced only in the stacked quadratic version like the 1.0uF one seen in the Torii

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 07/26/13 at 22:26:55

Looks like only Steve can answer this one.

From this link:
http://jupitercondenser.com/Audio-Series-Capacitors/audio-series-capacitors.html

Jupiter writes that both round and flat are Aluminum foil.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lon on 07/26/13 at 22:37:12

Yes, I noted that. I suppose that different caps could be supplied to manufacturers than are available on the webpage. He says that Steve said "copper" and I don't doubt him, necessarily. You're right, Steve would be the one with the definitive answer.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by tgarden on 07/27/13 at 06:36:25

Not that this will clear anything up, but on my recently modded ZP3 phono stage and pair of ZSM monoblocks, Steve used the aluminum foil variant of the Jupiters (2 caps in the ZP3 and two total in the monoblocks).

He told me this in a recent phone conversation. I don't know what the copper version is used in, but Steve mentioned that the aluminum foil Jupiters are faster sounding than the copper Jupiters. The ZP3 especially, sounds wonderful. I went from stock caps to Jupiters in that unit. In the monoblocks I went from V Caps to Jupiters.

Mike

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 07/27/13 at 16:47:33

Thanks Mike. Have you had the Jupiters in the monos long enough to compare with the V-caps?

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by tgarden on 07/27/13 at 17:35:26

Hi Will, I have at least 800 hours on the Jupiters. Amazingly enough, they are more detailed AND warmer than the V-caps.

The source for the monos, is a completely restored (with improved caps/resistors/wiring, etc.) Philips AH673 analog tuner. I had the tuner repaired and remodded by the tuner guru Joseph Chow, last year.

I have no idea what a digital source would sound like, in conjunction with the Jupiter aluminum foil capped ZSM's.

Steve told me that the aluminum foil Jupiters were faster than the copper version. On the flip side, the copper Jupiters sound "meatier" than the aluminum ones. He feels this is not what the ZP3 and ZSM's need.

Mike

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 07/27/13 at 18:02:36

Thanks Mike. Good to get your input. I heard V-caps (copper) briefly in my DAC, and I did not like them in that application. Too clean and in the face...like it was too easy to dissect the recordings. I figured it was that the Tranquility circuit was already very detailed and open and that the V-caps just were not a good match.

From that limited experience, it does not surprise me... your sense of the Jupiters being more detailed AND warmer. I guess this is sort of the sense I am getting from the Zstage with Jupiter Beeswax caps, though in this case I would not necessarily say "warm," but rather "musical" since I get no feeling of any lower mid darkness...just very good sound that for the most part is pleasantly unidentifiable. And the detail, top to bottom is exceptional, allowing sparkle and textures without getting in the way of the experience of music. The contrary actually. I feel like these caps don't put any of their "flavor" on the natural detail...just let it be, as it should be. I really like them in the Zstage.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by will on 07/27/13 at 18:25:31

Another thought.

On reflection, with the original Zstage caps, Auricaps, I could not use the Zstage comfortably after the Tranquility. Double edged...I wanted the adjustability of the Zstage for gain riding...reducing or increasing body and weight, but the Auricaps took a bit too much away from the Tranquility's amazingly musical detail, especially micro detail. They sounded a little like they were contributing a "warmth" that felt a little false to me...a little affected and electronic. I did not clearly notice this for what it was before the Tranquility, but I always had a slight reservation about the Zstage being a little "warm" for me. After getting the Tranquility, I could hear that this was more about micro detail loss and a somewhat restricted flow.

The Jupiters are another story altogether. If I hear the caps, I don't get a downside. It is all good in my book in this application.

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lon on 07/27/13 at 19:00:24

I would call the Jupiters in my Toriis "musical" as well. Really a nice match for the amps and making very flowing and non-fatiguing sound.

Some interesting evaluations of these and other caps here;

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0511/coupling_capacitors.htm

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by tgarden on 07/27/13 at 22:31:21

I agree with Lon, the Jupiter's make for a very flowing and non-fatiguing sound.

Rethinking it a bit, I'm going to back off on my "warm" description, and use Steve's term, "organic" sounding. Also, they are higher resolution than the V-caps, without a doubt.

Mike

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by jameskk on 10/14/13 at 11:39:36

If one goes on the Torii mono sight and looks at the flat stack Jupiter capacitor it says copper foil right on the capacitor. Turns out your both right . the square flat stack jupiters in the tori mono's are copper , the round HTbeezwax cryo treated that are in the Zen and Torii mkiv are aluminum............

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by tgarden on 10/14/13 at 18:10:08

Both my ZP3 and ZSM monoblocks, were upgraded by Decware, with the cryoed aluminum foil Jupiters.

I asked Steve about the ZP3, and he said the aluminum was far better sounding for that application.

Oh wait, I already said this 3 months ago! Oh well. Should have read the old posts:)

Mike in Seattle area

Title: Re: Cap choices for Mk III
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/14/13 at 21:35:36

At least your consistent Mike! ;)