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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl OLDER DECWARE GEAR SUPPORT >> TORII MK III >> New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1307970039 Message started by Pale Rider on 06/13/11 at 14:00:38 |
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Title: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 06/13/11 at 14:00:38 Here: Quote:
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by mac5u on 06/13/11 at 14:45:15 Greg, Are those comments from a Twitter feed? I wonder what kind of feedback he got from asking around about tube-rolling? I know the preference here is for the eval to be done with stock tubes but since he is taking Steve's advice and breaking in the amp, and since he is already testing Shugyuangs, maybe getting some suggestions from actual users wouldn't hurt. It might delay the review a bit longer but no telling how long Jeff has the amp out for anyway. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 06/13/11 at 15:52:37 Comments are from a thread in the Steve Hoffman forum: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=6643125#post6643125 To be frank I don't think he's been responsive to feedback. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 06/13/11 at 16:21:24 I agree with Lon. The thread started off with Jeff asking for tube rolling suggestions for the Torii Mk III. He may or may not be taking advantage of the feedback he has received, but if he is, he is keeping it close to the vest. My first thought was that he was looking for experiential recommendations that could "make the amp sing," so he could try them out, and in effect test the stock unit against its potential. At least, that is what I read into it, and perhaps I was being a tad hopeful. My guess is that he had the Shuguang Treasures already in hand, or lined up. I am really pleased he is testing the amp with those tubes, because I am very close to pulling the trigger on them anyway. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Gopher on 07/27/11 at 00:42:51 When is his review supposed to come out? Some of his teaser impressions on audio circle are what sealed the deal and got me to bite on mine. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 07/27/11 at 02:27:28 That's a very good question. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 07/27/11 at 12:20:53 Looking forward to that as well, particularly as Jeff expressed an interest in rolling the Torii. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Gopher on 07/27/11 at 14:16:44 TONEPUB wrote on 07/27/11 at 13:58:11:
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 07/27/11 at 14:19:16 He's certainly keeping us in suspense. The way I look at it: if he publishes the review, he'll probably have to return the amp. Doubt he wants to do that! |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 07/28/11 at 00:08:14 Question for Tone Audio: Did you do any tube rolling with the TORII? Jeff's answer: "Just a bit. Swapped the stock EL34's for the Shugyuangs with excellent results. Going to play with some rectifiers and voltage regulators as well." |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by dpod4 on 08/07/11 at 19:13:43 I borrowed a Torii mk iii (vcap upgrade and volume attenuator) this weekend placed on a wall mounted symposium ultra shelf. Fed it signals thru a 25k analog rig and top shelf Dac and tubed cd player with my reference vinyl and cds and high rez downloads using reference cabling (cardas golden reference, harmonic tech, tara labs zero etc). Speakers (Esoteric MG20) have nominal impedance of 6 ohms dipping to 3.7 with 89 efficiency rating. I found Torii to sound best with 8 ohm selected (facing rear of unit) since it seemed to open everything up (more kick and taller/wider/deeper) with treble dial at 1pm and bass dial at 10am. Treble dial proved super useful esp changing from recording/format. I ran Torii alone and via my VAC Ren mkiii preamp. This is a giant killer and amazingly combines best attributes and features into one component. I think I will be buying one. For the price it is insane. It is very very very special. Very musical. Gives sweet, pleasant energy. Shockingly dynamic with lower register heft. Midband and just above is probably best i have heard ....I heard details didnt know were there (eg, exactly how soft and where an instrument or stroke or note is played). Front to back spatial imaging is sublime. Certain sweet notes hung in space. Compared to my 19k VAC amp, the Torii mk iii had more weight and heft and sounded more musical on certain pieces. VAC had better articulation, transparency/air, speed. Faster starts and stops especially with lower registers. VAC had more seamless left to right soundstage and made speakers dissapear better. VAC lacked heft of Torii and was tilted to upper registers but had better grip of 50-70hz. VAC sounded a little dry and analytical compared to Torii which was smoother and more organic. Torii was quieter than VAC. No tube rush or hum whatsoever. Only had one area where I wish Decware performed better in my system -- the lower registers could sound a bit "one-note" undefined and flabby/wooly/loose. This was consistent across most formats/songs. Not sure because I was hearing so much heft and was trying to make sense of it, but bass sounded a bit loose and smeared compared to my (more lean) VAC. I played with impedance and bass control but couldn't crack the code. Maybe tube swapping would impact this. I'd give up some of the heft (and consequential "thickness") for tighter more articulate bass. When I switched from Zu Mother power cable into dedicated outlet TO Audience powerchord "e" to Audience Adept 12 conditioner, that added punchier dynamics. So many times the past 24 hours I was thinking if I knew about the Torii mk iii before buying the VAC I might have bought the Decware instead. A 19k 150 wpc tube amp versus a 3k 25 wpc amp. Amazing. Many thanks to Jeff Dorgay and TONEAudio for highlighting this amp. I'm thinking TONEAudio is rocking it with products covered and what they choose to bring to readers' attention. Nice! Addendum - ran Herron VTPH-2 phono preamp straight into the Torii mk III and that took some of the thickness/looseness away. 2nd Addendum - I return the Torii III to its owner tomorrow. When I was playing tennis last night with a fellow Audiophile I was bragging about the Decware Torii Mk III. He swung by today with a fellow Audiophile friend. We did A/B testing across a number of LPs and CDs with the Torii Mk III competing against the VAC 300.1a. They shared the same impressions. Amazement at the musical flow, low end extension, ease of listening, etc of the Torii. VAC had better iron grip of the speakers, smoother grain free vocals/more detailed high frequency, and more set in stone imaging (mixed reviews on whether it was too specific in imaging). When I asked if they had to choose between the two the quote was "That's a tough one. The Torii is more musical so probably that one." Both agreed that the price performance value of the Decware was staggering. Again, two great amps, but calling it out that the Torii Mk III competes easily (and musically) way outside its price class. I'm almost thinking it would be good to have both -- two very different amps. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/07/11 at 19:34:30 Welcome dpod4! Excellent comments. Perhaps others in the high-end audio community will start to "hear" the possibility. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by mac5u on 08/07/11 at 21:15:23 Welcome dpod4. If Will drops in on this thread, he can probably give you some very specific recommendations regarding the bass issue you have. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Gopher on 08/08/11 at 20:22:36 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96720.msg975222;topicseen#new Looks like Jeff bought the review sample. I assume issue #40's review will be glowing. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/08/11 at 20:36:25 Indeed, it appears so. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by mac5u on 08/11/11 at 00:03:42 Comments from the TONEAudio Blog -- The Decware Zen Torii is simply amazing "While the full review will be in issue 40, suffice to say that this is one of the most musically engaging amplifiers I’ve had the pleasure to experience. If you’ve ever spent time with a great SET and thought “If this only had 2-3 times the power, I could live with it,” your ship has arrived. " "These are 25 of the best watts you will find anywhere, at any price. " |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/11/11 at 00:06:06 Outstanding. Thanks for sharing that Mike. As I sit here listening to mine, I could not agree more. Link here. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/11/11 at 00:23:58 The blog post is longer than I expected. I enjoyed this quote: Quote:
In part, because I also like the blue glow of the 0B3 voltage regulators. So happens that their bass also suits me well. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 08/11/11 at 00:34:31 I like the blue glow of the OB3, but the sound of the OA3 more. Great comments! I'm going to link to them on the Hoffman forum thread. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/11/11 at 00:34:32 Of course, for a mere $45,000 USD, you could have a pair of these. I think I will pass. I enjoyed a Krell ages ago, but not that much. ;) |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/11/11 at 00:35:28 Good move Lon. I expect this review to have significant ripples. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by dpod4 on 08/12/11 at 03:55:21 For those of you who read TONEAudio or know Jeff, he has heard just about everything and when he endorses something as high performance, it's the real deal -- he is unlike a lot of reviewers who who only review stuff from manufacturers who take ads out in their magazines. TONEAudio is not afraid to call a spade a spade, for good or for bad. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 08/12/11 at 20:05:44 I don't think the TONEAudio review will have a big effect on TORII sales. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/12/11 at 20:31:54 Kana, you may well be right (I can think of some reasons why I might even agree), but I would be curious as to your thinking. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 08/12/11 at 20:43:08 PR, Since Tone Audio's positive comments have surfaced there hasn't been a big increase in TORII sales. His positve comments and word of the price increase didn't help me sell my amp. I think Tone Audio has wonderful pictures, but IMO, it's just another subjective internet review site that doesn't publish any measurements. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/12/11 at 21:31:08 Fair point, though I think it is a very premature assessment. I suspect that someone schooled in Marketing would advise that we haven't even yet seen the "new news" gain traction yet. The market for these products is probably not huge, and even enthusiasm like that expressed by Tone isn't going to move the needle overnight. So, I think the anecdotal "evidence" so far—no significant uptick in sales, and the difficulty of your re-sell—don't really mean much at this stage. I still believe that reviews like this, in publications with growing credibility (whether deserved or not), overlaid on the incremental small growth rate of the specialty hi-fi market, etc., the importance of Internet-based word-of-mouth, etc., will eventually lead to a significantly improved market penetration for Decware. My own experience is interesting. I have been aware of Decware for over two years, having run across their portable headphone amp first over at Head-Fi. But even so, it took more than a year before I bought my first piece, and at that, it was the Taboo, not the portable amp. The rest of my buying spree only occurred because I made a decision to renovate my HT. Had my timing been a little different, I might have bought your amp, but again, the current market itself remains fairly small. I, and almost every other person on the Amp Waiting List is the sort of customer willing to wait months for a handmade, often not-previously-heard, completely custom product. There are generally not millions of such customers running around. If there were, I would think that an announced review like the Tone Audio one would have a much bigger pool in which to make a splash. When all is said and done, I think a Torii has more in common with a custom pacemaker than it does an iPad. The market in the former is by definition harder to impact. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 08/12/11 at 23:00:58 I think it's way too early to analyze the sales results possible from the TONEAudio review (which isn't even out yet, just some comments on a blog and bulletin board or two). I think it's interesting that Steve is building new "factory" space. With a waiting list as he has right now it's not hard to see why. I'm hopeful for Decware's future. When I think of the size of the company and it's product line when I bought my first product, Zen amp #27, and the state of the company now, it's definitely a "managed success" story. I hope it has more decades of managed success. Sorry that you had to send the amp back kana, both that it didn't fit your needs, and that you didn't get to send it along to someone else. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 08/13/11 at 22:44:01 Lon, I'm not upset about returning the amp for a refund, I took a chance and it didn't work out. Did you notice that quotes from the Tone Audio blog are now in the TORII's production information? Wonder if Issue 40 will have a Decware ad. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Gopher on 08/14/11 at 01:12:21 Other's feedback had piqued my interest in the Torii, but it is Tone's vague, albeit positive, forum musings (particularly on Audio Circle) cemented the deal for me and I made the resolution to buy based on it. Kana, I tried to bump your thread on AC as I know how great the amp is and think its absolutely worth the price, but I can see how in some peoples mind 'pre-owned is pre-owned' and they'd want to see more of a discount over new. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/14/11 at 03:03:40 Hey Gopher, Interesting that Tone got you over the edge in your decision to try a Torii. I wonder what your impressions are now that you have had the amp a while. Have you arrived at tubes you like.... pre/buffer? Are you glad you got the Torii. Sort of? Ecstatic? Does it help you get lost in the music? 8-) |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 08/14/11 at 03:11:29 :) It just might at that. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 08/14/11 at 03:56:34 Gopher, I'm glad my questions for Jeff on AC got you to try the TORII. I appreciate your bump. Congrats on selling the Shindo so fast. Here's something to try under the TORII: http://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustic-treatment/mig-mechanical-interface-grounding/ Lon, They work great under the PWD/PWT too. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Donnie on 08/14/11 at 04:22:03 Kana, what are these mig feet made out of? The link didn't give me much info of what they are made of. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 08/14/11 at 06:26:30 Donnie, They're forged in the USA from proprietary carbon steel and later case-hardened with a torch. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 08/14/11 at 13:47:01 Interesting. Probably pretty expensive. Right now I'm very happy with the Herbie's Audio Lab IsoCup supports. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by kana813 on 08/14/11 at 21:46:24 $150. for a set of three. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Lon on 08/14/11 at 22:30:13 Thanks. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Gopher on 08/18/11 at 03:30:41 Will, I find it generally pleasant and I do stand by the purchase. It is a finicky amp--not in operation but in fine tuning. I have a few local audio buddies I meet up with and do gear shoot outs in foreign rigs and I've noted more than with other amps that the Torii REALLY does get tuned in for a specific system both by tube selection and bass/treble settings After taking the Torii on a play date it takes me like a week to get it sounding 'right' again--I still don't have my bass re-dialed in, but I'm not very good or enthusiastic about tweaking. I wish the bass/treble pots had scores to know where they are at. It isn't an all out world beater, but that doesn't stop it from kicking tush. I've only heard one other amp in the sub $5k range which I MIGHT prefer, but it would need a very good active pre while the Torii seems almost better left to itself. Also, I bet with additional tube rolling I could get some more emotional pull going on. I have a nagging suspicion I should try other el34/6ca7s. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/18/11 at 06:04:28 Gopher, Yes I think of the Torii as sort of like a thoroughbred horse, and is so transparent and clarified that we have to tune it just so to make it totally sing in our particular settings. Seems a lot of gear makers try to smooth out that very direct transparency, making the amp sweeter and and more easily adaptable. Sort of a different goal, and your experience proves how revealing the amp is but also how adaptable it is to to different gear and rooms with tuning. My take anyway. I totally agree with you that the treble and bass pots are not all that easy to work with though. Pretty difficult to make very fine adjustments with those stiff little knobs. I am trying the JJ 6CA7s now and will report how they work for me after they get burnt in. Aren't there little score marks on the top of the bass and treble knobs? I always do it by feel/sound as my amp is up and not easily visible in the back, but I thought I remembered minor scores. If so it would seem you could mark the sweet spots with a thinly cut piece of electrical tape placed just so on the white amp face. May be hard to get exactly perfect by sight, but close anyway. What is your tube set at the moment? Good Luck! Will |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Gopher on 08/18/11 at 14:50:57 Will, I'm not home now, but to the best of my recollection they are just thin twist knobs which spin more than 360 degrees and have no markings/hatch marks to make retaining settings easy. I did see a thread in the preamp section of someone who got some knobs from Radioshack to place over them which allowed them to better monitor where the settings are. My current tube compliment is as follows: Black Treasure 6CA7s National 7DJ8s RCA 5u4g (1950s) unlabeled OA3 & VR150s. I also own, but haven't used Winged C el34s since day 2--maybe I'll revisit them tonight. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/18/11 at 15:58:42 I am also thinking of putting some directional or marked knobs on the trim pots, so I at least have some point of reference on the settings. Much as I like the appearance of the gold knobs on my amps, that is why I replaced them with black chicken beaks on my amps and kept the cream chicken beaks on the Ultra. Having a visual reference point is very useful. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/18/11 at 16:17:28 Mine stop on each end of the turn, so are likely not greater than 360 but they are little and stiffish. If anyone identifies a nice knob that fits, please let us know. I think just having something bigger in diameter would make fine adjustments much easier. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/18/11 at 16:51:41 Will, I confirmed this morning that the black chicken beak knobs I ordered from Surplus Sales of Nebraska, fit the trim pots snugly—i.e., they way they should—so that the set screw merely snug them down. They have many other choices, and their service is excellent. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/18/11 at 17:19:37 Great Greg. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/18/11 at 18:04:14 Quote:
Those sure are pretty, and I give them points for enthusiasm. I assume the $150 price—which the website says is for a set of 3—means three MiGs, enough for one component? A tad pricey, but not outrageous. I may try a set, though, like Lon, I am very happy with my Herbie's IsoCups. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/18/11 at 21:56:31 Though I too am happy with Isocups, after Alfred at highend electronics told me these sounded better than isocups, I decided to audition some. What is happy after all? ;) |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/18/11 at 21:59:49 Which is exactly why I will probably try them. I have Herbie's Tenderfeet under the Blu-Ray player right now, so that is a natural place to try them out, and I think the Ultra might be as well. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/18/11 at 22:05:18 They have two sizes. I am getting a big set to try under the Torii and a little one for under the DAC. We'll see! |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/19/11 at 00:43:40 I missed the size differential. Will have to go back and look. UPDATE: I looked, tried coming into the site from the home page, tried adding to the shopping cart, etc., and I still cannot find anything but the basic MiG for $150, with no indication of two sizes. What am I missing? |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/19/11 at 00:58:41 I learned about it from Alfred at highend electronics. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/19/11 at 01:12:17 May have to give him a buzz or drop him a line. Their site makes no mention of size choices either. But thanks for the referral; they have a nice collection of stuff. Anybody have any experience with the Synergistic Research Acoustic ART Basik? Looks fascinating and a significantly different approach to room treatment. |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by will on 08/19/11 at 01:47:23 I use the Art Basik System. I have not pulled it from the room since the initial set up and things have changed since then, so I can't directly speak to how much it effects things now. With my SE34 amp the Basik system along with a Kemp SR unit, and some fiberglass stuffed under a low shelf was quite good. After tuning the Basik in, there was no question as to its efficacy...clarification, ambience and sound stage all benefiting. Likewise with the SR unit. But with the Torii, this room became much more demanding, especially in the low end, after which I have done more traditional stuff with hard fiberglass board and a diaphragm. But even now, though I leave the Basik wall units where they are, when I occasionally play with the Basik Bass unit, shifting a couple inches to several feet, centered or off center, angled or straight on, I can subtly shift the sense of the room ambience from recordings into relatively seamless integration with my room. In other words, there is no separation from the players in the room, the ambient decay continuing all around me. It must be cleaning up specific areas of bass/low mid stuff in different locations, and there is definitely magic in the right place. This could be specific to this weird room though! And I am not surrounded by ERRs with three amps driving them! |
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Title: Re: New comments from Jeff of Tone Audio Post by Pale Rider on 08/19/11 at 06:28:52 This really piques my interest. Thanks Will. |
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