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Steve's BIG BETSY Project (Read 39347 times)
Donnie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #500 - 08/13/19 at 17:16:00
 
I only have one thing to say:
Chrystal 10's in a DNA 3.
TA DA!
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #501 - 08/13/19 at 17:41:55
 
As big as the Big Betsy's are, I would think that one of the most important things you could do to improve the sound would be to cover the back with felt to reduce reflection, as recommended by Darrel Hawthorne of Hawthorne Audio. And also damping the driver basket. The following is a quote from a 2009 article:

Many advanced builders are looking at these surfaces and asking the logical question. "How can we damp these surfaces and also keep them from being so reflective?" The answers coming back to us from our builders is that yes improvement can be realized if the driver is fully damped and several products have been suggested. The basic idea here is to add "soft mass" Soft Mass is something that lowers the resonant frequency through mass loading and yet stays soft and flexible. Modeling clays, duct seals, rope caulk and automotive damping sheet goods head up this list of products that damp well, and are readily available, inexpensive and removable. Many builders are also covering surfaces such as these with felt in an attempt at eliminating reflective surfaces. We like to cover the back side of our baffles with felt to help eliminate the possibility of these surfaces being the sources for these secondary reflections.

And also to adding additional mass to the base:

One way of adding mass that also does essentially eliminate vibration is the use of sand or metal shot. While strictly speaking sand cannot eliminate the energy content of vibration it can convert this to another form of energy called heat. That's right. Each little grain of sand/metal bouncing into it's neighbor converts these vibrations into thermal energy via friction and exchange. Some savvy builders are using sand to damp their baffles and especially the base or plinth that the speakers rest on.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #502 - 08/13/19 at 17:54:44
 

Randy, I am comfortable marketing these two hardwood Big Betsy speakers, but what we all know would be the hot seller is a pair of MDF or possibly Plywood versions painted black to get the price down drastically so more people could enjoy these two combos.  

I don't know what that figure would actually be but am hoping after some discussions between you, myself and Bob at this years fest that we can work it all out.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #503 - 08/13/19 at 18:45:13
 
Yeah, Donnie, I had already posted that inquiry but got NO comments.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #504 - 08/13/19 at 18:54:17
 
It looks like about 4" down, but how far from the top of the baffle are you guys mounting your "handles."  I should receive mine this week and will be putting them on.

Also, I have some rope calk and what I call sticky tack (blue tack?) that I was going to try on the basket.  I like sticky tack a lot better.  I think it was originally made to hang posters on the wall.  Easier to work with and if memory serves, less residue upon removal.
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #505 - 08/13/19 at 20:58:36
 
Pal, I went by eye and couldn't decide between 2 1/2" or 3" to center so I went 2 3/4".  3" might have looked better but with the weights I don't mind the room.  These aren't practical as handles but as a stiffener I would think closer to the top might make more sense?

When tapping on the baffle with my knuckle from the front, I can really hear where the weights are.  They must be doing something.  But as BAndrade pointed out, the baffles don't work like a panel speaker.
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #506 - 08/13/19 at 22:14:03
 
Well, I was so intrigued by all of the builds and impressions of the Lii speakers, that I just had to come up with a way to join in the fun.

I have no workshop, only a bare minimum of woodworking tools ( a handsaw and a cheap jigsaw Roll Eyes ) and almost no woodworking experience, so I had to go another route.

Jeff posted about having rings made so that he could modify his 15" baffles to accept the Crystal 10. He posted the name of the company making the rings for him, craftcuts.com , so I took a look at the site. The wheels then started turning in my head. (Thanks, Jeff!)

I wanted a baffle for the Crystal 10's, but had to come up with a slightly condensed version of what Steve made for his. What he made was just too big, so I had to come up with something I thought would work in my room.  I made a rough sketch and sent it to Craft Cuts. They took my drawing and fine tuned it so the radii would come close to what I had drawn.  They are making them now, and I should have them next week.  This is what they are making:

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #507 - 08/13/19 at 22:17:28
 
What kind of wood Geno?
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #508 - 08/13/19 at 22:17:49
 
I ordered the Crystal's this afternoon.
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #509 - 08/13/19 at 22:19:29
 
Baltic Birch
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #510 - 08/13/19 at 22:22:03
 
Thickness?

And is this the place that does wooden letters?
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #511 - 08/13/19 at 22:35:59
 
Hi Pal.  1 1/2" thick.  Attached is the receipt for this for anyone else that might be interested. Not too bad considering the company is in Idaho and will ship them to Mississippi.  

I hope Mr. Randy is not upset about not coming to him with this Embarrassed
I didn't want to take advantage of our friendship...

I'll have to come up with a base design. Something big enough that I can put a 10 lb bag of sand or lead shot on.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #512 - 08/13/19 at 23:23:13
 
Geno, what a great idea!  And seems like a very reasonable price.  How will you mount the driver?  Can they radius the opening front or back?  Just curious, how did you determine the hole size for the driver?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #513 - 08/13/19 at 23:41:20
 
Geno,
That is actually a really good price. When i was looking at wood, the price was in that ballpark just for the wood. The same Baltic birch but I would have some left over for the feet.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #514 - 08/13/19 at 23:57:05
 
Geno... Cool you were able to get Craft Cuts a whirl and have them build the baffles. Keep us posted to how they come out.  

My rings just shipped today.  Took them 7 days from the time of ordering to build and ship them.  Im not sure if yours will take longer or if that is just their typical lead time.  Either way, not too bad, especially for what you paid!

I just put the second coat of boiled linseed oil on my Bubinga baffles.  I contemplated staining them darker to better match the pedestal but the wood grain would have been muted and that beautiful Rosewood-like red tinge would have been trampled.  Too pretty to mess with mother nature so I put a couple additional coats of Linseed oil and will finish them up with a coat or two of beeswax.  They are looking great.  

For the baltic birch rings, I will be using a golden oak stain followed by the beeswax coats to create a two tone look.  

I still can't believe how hard this African Bubinga wood is.  It's definitely harder than many metals!  It will be interesting to see how the Crystal-10"s behave with this particular hardwood.  
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #515 - 08/14/19 at 00:03:32
 
Archie, the opening dimension initially came from Jeff who got it from the dude with Lii Audio. I verified that on the website. The plan is to mount it just like Randy mounts his on the Betsy’s. The speaker is placed in the opening and is mounted along the collar around the hole.  I did not request a bevel around the hole, but I’m sure that they could do that.
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #516 - 08/14/19 at 00:42:23
 
That’s great Jeff. I will look forward to your impressions. And thanks again for giving me the idea!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #517 - 08/14/19 at 00:48:57
 
Steve recommends a bevel to ease the wave front on it's way (rear wave in this case).  I put a 1/2" R on mine which are also 1 1/2" thick.  Do you think you'll use any gasket material between the driver and baffle?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #518 - 08/14/19 at 01:05:34
 
I was about to ask about a gasket. Did you use one on your 15”?

I can see a possible need for a bevel with his drivers being recessed, but would I need it being flush mounted? Steve?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #519 - 08/14/19 at 01:13:57
 
I don't think the recess makes a difference, just thins the amount of wood behind the driver.  Still the same size hole.

I didn't do a gasket but I'm open to persuasion.  I have some thin cork with an adhesive back that can be cut into narrow strips and easily formed around these large radiuses.  I first used it around the edge of my TT platter to slightly raise the edge so the clamped record would have full contact on the mat (compensates for warps) so I know it will form down to 6" R and likely smaller.  If the driver is rear mounted, like Steve's CR-10s, then there is a gasket already.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #520 - 08/14/19 at 01:16:46
 
And interesting DIY open baffle article by the good folks at Hawthorne Audio:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0709/open_baffle.htm
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #521 - 08/14/19 at 01:47:23
 
All this talk of the Crystal-10 full range driver is giving me ideas.

My next project was to upgrade the crossover in my speakers which have 5 drivers each and as many crossovers. Now instead I am mulling replacing 3 of the midrange drivers with one Crystal-10 driver thus eliminating the 3 of the midrange crossover and 3 drivers in one go. This would increase the efficiency of my speakers to above current 89 dB to some where in the region of 93 dB to 95 dB.

That would leave the tweeter (goes upto 45,000 Hz) and the bass driver (goes down to 24 Hz) and the full range Crystal-10 do the work in between.

I need to figure a way to strap the 10" Crystals to the speaker cabinets that are designed for multiple 7" drivers without modifying the current speaker cabinets. Alternately might just disable the 3 midrange drivers  leaving them on the speakers and placing the Crystal-10 as an open baffle along side.

When treading into uncharted territory I like to plan on reversibility and having not modified the existing cabinets I could easily reverse back.

I got to think long and hard on this because the chances are high that I might have phasing issues as the overlap in frequencies at either ends of the Crystal-10 could be significant. Perhaps a simple capacitor at the low end and an inductor at the top end to minimize the overlap might solve it.




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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #522 - 08/14/19 at 01:53:12
 
Archie, I’m glad that you mentioned the recess at the back. I see that the back of the driver will be sounding out of a hole with the baffle 1 1/2” thick. I think I’ll get in touch with the manufacturer and have them put a 3/4” chamfer on the back side to help with that. Thanks for pointing that out.

I’m going by the local stereo shop tomorrow and pick up some rubber gasket.  

Also, I have a question about the driver, and I’m calling China shortly to ask about it. I’ll ask about using a gasket too.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #523 - 08/14/19 at 01:56:56
 
Jeff, I read that article yesterday. As a matter of fact, the post I made above has the highlighted segments from that very article.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #524 - 08/14/19 at 02:18:39
 

This afternoon we got a phone call from someone local who wanted to come by and see what we did. Initially he thought we were a stereo store, and I guess we kind of are. Anyway he arrived minutes after hanging up the phone, has vintage 15 inch speakers and has been looking for a good sounding amp for them. Discovered Decware about an hour ago and was shocked that we were so close.

We chatted for a bit and then I offered to let him hear what I was currently testing, the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amp paired with the Crystal 10 Baffles. The speakers have a similar efficiency to what he has at home and 2 watts is usually enough for that, so it should make for a useful demo.

I played the Nexus track by Daniel Voth followed by Snow (Hey OH) by Luca Stricagnoli. He got up and walked into the hallway here and said "I'm convinced" and went straight to Sarah's office and purchased an amp. He'll be at DECFEST this year so add another one to the family : )

7 - 1/2 minute demo,  bought one. That might be a record considering he still has no idea who DECWARE is, so zero research, pondering, lusting... just completely spontaneously popped in here, heard it, bought it.

You gotta love that kind of efficiency. I think it's a pretty good testament to how good these sound.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #525 - 08/14/19 at 02:43:05
 
As I was feeling to lazy to draw so I looked around on the www and found more or less what I had in mind. This is a picture from a site called Speaker Projects.
I mentioned this in an earlier post as well. I think a web at the back anchoring the unsupported top (especially for tall BBs) will increase rigidity thus preventing top edge vibes and loads transferred from the top to the heavy base.
Currently employing 1 1/2 inch thick panels is the option used. I think by use of framing the panel thickness can be reduced to 1 inch or even 3/4 inch.
This technique is employed in structural engineering a lot. e.g.if you happen to visit any gigantic super tanker that carry crude oil around the world and being pounded again and again by 10 m waves in the Pacific ocean and look at the hull from inside you will see a lot of webbing which allow the use of only 0.75 inch thick steel hull plating and yet withstand enormous dynamic loads. Without webbing the hull steel thickness would be as much as 3 inches to withstand that kind of pounding besides bending moments and shear loads of carrying 300,000 tons of crude oil.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #526 - 08/14/19 at 02:44:03
 
Some here may be asking why it took even that long to figure out Decware was the right choice   Wink
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #527 - 08/14/19 at 02:53:57
 

Before we get too far into this let me remind everyone that the Crystal 10 is not designed nor ideal for open baffle use, not to mention open baffle use is likely a waste of the drivers bottom octave which I suspect is quite spectacular in the appropriate cabinet.

While I am having some good success with it in my Baffles, please note their size. In this size baffle the driver requires a ZROCK2 to sound it's best, similar to what it would sound like in a cabinet, but still without much of the bottom octave. That means to sound extra full and rich, a ZROCK2 is required which deals with a lot more than low bass.

Also, any smaller baffle will arguably have even less bass and require some kind of bass augmentation like a subwoofer set really high.

Because it is a lower Qts driver (0.5) as discussed earlier, it's stronger magnet limits cone movement at fs. thus limiting bass output. Since cone movement is directly tied to bass output in an open baffle design, it stands to reason that the louder you play the speakers, the fuller they sound. This is certainly the case with my Crystal 10 baffle design, meaning that playing at low levels without a ZROCK2 in some rooms will tend to sound lean and dry.  

None of this is the case with the Big Betsy and F15 drivers. Remember if it was possible to have it all in the science of audio there would only be one speaker and we would all have it. Honestly, the closest to that ideal speaker I've ever stumbled across is the Big Betsy baffles.

There is no question that if you modified this same size baffle to fit an 8 inch driver and installed the original Betsy driver in it, you would have a far better frequency balance at low volumes.  And interestingly, the original Betsy driver in the Caintuck Audio baffles being lower to the ground would have the same bass response as these larger baffles that have the driver twice as high off the floor.

I can safely say that the closest sounding driver to the Crystal 10 in an open baffle is the Caintuck Audio Open Baffles with the 8 inch alnico Betsy drivers at a fraction of the cost and half the size.    



Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #528 - 08/14/19 at 03:05:50
 
Which mirrors what Leo of Lii Audio said with my question of bass performance comparing the F15's and Crystal-10's....

Hi Jeff,

Without doubt the 10" is much more "full range" than any other drivers thus if your question is about how bass it can go,  10" does better and is more elastic.

We highly recommend a cabinet of 220L at least or if you want to play with OB,  the OB should be big enough to allow the most performance.

Best regards,
Leo ZHANG
Lii Audio Team
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #529 - 08/14/19 at 03:13:02
 
For me, this is a ZERO risk venture.  I will eventually have a dedicated home theater room and I will assign these to front R/L mains since I will have a servo-controlled subwoofer to augment them.  

So, I will build these now, place them close to the front corners in my room to help "load" the bass and assess their performance.  If they suck, I store them until I move in the next year, or two (max),where they will be my new HT front mains. I think they will be absolutely perfect in that role since playing movies at dynamic volumes is what I enjoy!  Powered by by Decware Ultra preamp of course!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #530 - 08/14/19 at 03:29:23
 
And as Steve mentions, everything is a trade off.  While a higher QTS will favor better bass, low QTS drivers mean powerful magnets and light cones, a combination which can result in better sound compared to high QTS drivers.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #531 - 08/14/19 at 03:31:51
 

Jeff, agreed, I think the lower placement to floor may well offset the baffle size a bit, and I think your application would be great as these things have absolutely startling speed with explosive marksmanship that would serve movies very well.  I'm actually looking forward to your impressions in the smaller baffles and to see where it leads.

For the record, the Lii Audio cabinets for these drivers are almost a give away and probably sound very good.  I've been tempted to order the complete speaker to see what is their reference.

Steve


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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #532 - 08/14/19 at 03:51:52
 

That Nexus track where the wood sound of guitar body being hit is so explosive and sounds real IF you were an elf about 12 inches tall and listening to it live about 4 feet in front of the guitar.  I've never heard anything like it with these speakers.  Well, that's not true, the FRX2 drivers will do it also, but these are 6dB more efficient and have a more organic sound due to the better cone material.  The last time I heard something spank like this, it was the FRX2 drivers with a ZMA driving them!  Now we have the same result from a 2 watt amplifier so it is exciting and going to be a game changer if this small Lii Audio company has the staying power and with two home runs under their belt, the F15 and the Crystal 10, and probably all of their drivers, I think they will have a long happy business.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #533 - 08/14/19 at 04:23:19
 
Quote:
IF you were an elf about 12 inches tall and listening to it live about 4 feet in front of the guitar.

I literally gut laughed big time when I read this   Grin

So, my plan is to drive these Caintuck Bubinga/Crystal-10 baffles with my ZMA..  

The way I am assembling these loudspeakers (cuz let's be honest, there were no saws involved on my end) allows for them to retain their original "on the floor" positions OR the raised pedestal mounted orientation.  I can switch from one to the other by simply unscrewing the (4) threaded brass weights that couple them to the "twisted" bases.  

That said, I will run them on the floor, on the pedestals, and in the room corners as part of my critical listening experiment.  Here a couple photos of the pedestal bases and the newly re-finished (linseed oil) Caintuck Audio "Bubinga" baffles.  The grain and color are simply intoxicating.  

The baffles are still waiting for the "golden oak" stained baltic birch plywood rings allowing the 10" drivers to join the party.

On a side note.... Randy at Caintuck, I have to hand it to you.  I have no clue how you managed to build these baffles out of Bubinga wood.  I tried to sand a small section on the rear of the baffle as I was exploring stain options.  I am pretty certain the baffle laughed it's ass off and promptly presented its middle finger to me.  That wood is possessed!!!



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #534 - 08/14/19 at 04:57:00
 
This is the earliest in the year that I can remember us having this much interest in Decfest!

Brian
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #535 - 08/14/19 at 14:20:39
 
Well, I spent another night and morning my attempt at Steve’s BBBs.  I am still very much in the honeymoon phase, but I still can’t find music these baffles don’t do well.

Last nights ‘oh shit’ moment was a Deadmou5 came on.  Hard hitting bass for sure  Typically I am tempted to switch on the subs for EDM type music.  But what I heard and felt I was very satisfying.  I’ve really only switched the subs on once since having these and messed with the cross-over point a little.  I was as high as 83hz, but now I backed it off to around 70hz.   Anyway, my current opinion is subs are a nice option to have with these speakers, but certainly not necessary.

The second moment was hearing Riders on the Storm.  That Rainstorm was bigger and more present than ever and covered the entire front wall of my listening room.  The music was more nestled in the storm, I thought.   I also noticed the overdub of Morrison’s voice more than I had in the past.  Finally, this morning, Cream, Live at Albert Hall – Stormy Monday.  Good live recording but the hit of the tight bass drum was notable. Pop Pop Pop

I did finally find a song that produced an unmusical resonance in the baffles.  I got up immediately and started feeling different areas of the baffle (as I am sure you all do).  What I can say with more certainty is my baffle with 1” oak is a transducer that you can feel in the listening position.  With my face maybe 6-12” from the top portion of the baffle, I could feel the same sound wave coming off of it for sure.  

Anyway, the part of the baffle that was producing most of the vibration and unmusical resonance were the sides, to the left and right of the driver, with the most vibration near the edges of the baffle and at the widest point of the baffle.  Not the upper part of the baffle as I expected or have felt before with my other OB baffles.  Not sure what to make of this except perhaps the shape of the baffle promotes the production of this sound wave??

With that said, I am entertaining the idea that resonance in these baffles, if at the right frequency, lends a more tactile pleasurable listening experience.  Maybe that’s a “no duh” kind of statement to you guys who have been at this a while but I’ve not felt this with any of my box speakers or 4 different OB baffles I have built/listened to.  I’m not sure how much of this I want to tame.  I am going to install the handles later this week and I will see what that does, if anything to improve or take away from the tactile feeling of these speakers.

Oh, and if you see some weird guy with his face near the Big Betsy’s baffles at the fest, that would be me, doing the transducer test.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #536 - 08/14/19 at 15:31:13
 
Pal, weights on the baffle will break up and change the vibration pattern.  You ought to be able to clamp something to the back at the sides to see what effect it has with that particular piece of music
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #537 - 08/14/19 at 15:48:27
 
Yeah, I could even clamp a clamp on it and see what that does.  I am not too concerned about it because its a single song so far that has the frequency prominent enough that it produced what I'll call dissonant baffle hum.  

As I mentioned before I thought after I glued up the wood that most songs with any bass would cause dissonant hum.  I thought there's $175 down the tubes.  But my experience has been very positive.  All in, I am at $625 and I am getting possibly the biggest return on audio investment I have ever received - at least for speakers I can say that for sure.

It's the bigger resonance picture that I am trying to understand.  Good vs bad resonance.  What to keep, want to tame.  I think I certainly want some resonance.  It makes music more live in the sense that it makes it more of a whole body experience.  And this baffle shape/size does it somehow.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #538 - 08/14/19 at 16:03:03
 
probably a little off topic but planer jointer is different in Japan! Be patient and watch some of this video of planing competition in Japan!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9X-XzFGHI
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #539 - 08/14/19 at 16:08:53
 
In a way it's a crap shoot.  I've been wondering if I should do anything at the bottom of my baffles in the way of a stiffener and/or additional weight/damping.  No particular reason other than Steve's build comment about using mass as a vibration drain at the base.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #540 - 08/14/19 at 16:12:56
 
lazb, try that with bubinga!  I didn't see a mention of the wood they were using but I couldn't even push a board that wide across my jointer let alone a hand plane.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #541 - 08/14/19 at 23:12:04
 
Palomino…. “dissonant baffle hum”
That is exactly what I experienced with my Trio OB’s… there are two Hawthorne 15” Augie’s and a single 15” Audio Nirvana full-ranger in each baffle.  That’s a lot of “energy” from three 15” drivers to be controlled.  Even with the sand filled baffle rails, thick baffles, heavy felt cover… I still had “buzz” sometimes at some volumes.  The buzzing was worse, when I had ¼” plate steel outriggers on the bases with big brass footers (from Edensound) on the heavy outriggers.
That is when I tried removing the outriggers and brass footers.. sitting the OB bases directly on the floor – better – then the dense foam mats under the bases – better yet.  Then I added back braces, similar to what BAndrade shows in his picture above.  Except that I added two braces to each baffle.  One each close to the outside edges that run from the top to the bottom – instead of one down the middle as shown in the post from BAndrade. (I did use the one down the middle approach with my Betsy Baffles)  But even with two top to bottom back braces… I had some resonance from the back braces themselves occasionally.  So next, to further explore damping, I added clamps (Bessey clamps) temporarily in various positions to see if I could get all the objectionable resonances under control.  I think I’ve about got it all tamed down now – just need to finish/polish up the temporary additional bracing pieces.
FYI - 25lb bags of shotgun shot are great for damping experimentation also…..
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #542 - 08/14/19 at 23:15:33
 
Maddog, do you have any pictures of these can you can post?  They sound really interesting and it seems you've experimented with a lot of great ideas.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #543 - 08/14/19 at 23:54:47
 
Palomino wrote on 08/14/19 at 15:48:27:
Yeah, I could even clamp a clamp on it and see what that does.  I am not too concerned about it because its a single song so far that has the frequency prominent enough that it produced what I'll call dissonant baffle hum.  

As I mentioned before I thought after I glued up the wood that most songs with any bass would cause dissonant hum.  I thought there's $175 down the tubes.  But my experience has been very positive.  All in, I am at $625 and I am getting possibly the biggest return on audio investment I have ever received - at least for speakers I can say that for sure.

It's the bigger resonance picture that I am trying to understand.  Good vs bad resonance.  What to keep, want to tame.  I think I certainly want some resonance.  It makes music more live in the sense that it makes it more of a whole body experience.  And this baffle shape/size does it somehow.


Would something like this work from GR Research?

No Rez: http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx
Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJb8o6zzGi8
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #544 - 08/15/19 at 14:22:26
 
These speakers do all music well. One area they excel in is acoustic guitar based music.  I listened to some before I had these speakers and it was hard to get that into.  Nice if I was in a chill mood.  With these speakers, guitar music is enchanting.  I think I posted a Tidal playlist earlier.  Sounds wonderful.  I continue to add to it and added Steve’s guitar track.

So I have done some reading and generally, the purists say minimize vibration in the baffle.  Otherwise, you add something to the music that is not in the recording.  It seems people go to great lengths.  Even making baffles out of cement, marble, etc.  

I get where they are coming from.  I don’t think most of us go to extreme lengths to deaden their baffles.  But I am interested is seeing what it does.  I am just trying to wade through the suggestions to see what might be practical for me.

My OB baffle history goes like this…The first time I really heard a difference in a baffle (and enclosure) was when a forum member brought his DIY Pencils (sp?) to my room.  They were made of plywood and I thought to myself, what a wonderful tone these speakers have.  

Later, I heard Donnie's speakers which were MDF and had double baffles and took two of us to carry into my basement.  I thought, a heavier baffle adds punch and weight to the music.  So Raven helped me build some 1.5” MDF baffles. I liked those but they seemed a little dead to me, despite having some significant vibration near the top of the baffle.  They also seemed to block the sound behind the baffle.   That lead me to my Baltic Birch baffles (for tone) and the stepped baffles – smallest for tweeter, next biggest for mids and largest for bass.  Kind of looked like a skyscraper.  Those accomplished the dual goal of not blocking the music and providing good tone.

Then I go to the F15 in the low boy baffles (my 1.5”).  They sound really good, but I don’t think I am getting the full hit that Steve talked about nor the bass unless they are right on the floor.  So I build the Big Betsys out of hardwood.  Wonderful tone.  Sound great and I don’t want to transition back to my Baltic ply based speakers.  They also provide a whole body buzz even at lower levels that I feel enhances the enjoyment of the music.  So I’m not a purist.  I like the tone the wood adds and I like the body buzz.  

Still, I will experiment.  I did use blue tak to try to deaden the baskets on the drivers.  I didn’t feel or hear much difference.  I’ll try some other things suggested here.

I also think I may have figured out why the frequency response varied from the low boys to the Big Besty’s.  I believe it has to do with Baffle Step.  If I did the math right, the width of the baffles will add a few db in the 150-200hz range.  

Sorry for the long post.  I appreciate you guys reading and making suggestions.  There is definitely gold in them there hills.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #545 - 08/15/19 at 16:11:03
 
To deaden or not to deaden ...

I've been thinking about the bottom of my baffles and what Steve said about a mass drain for vibration.  I can buy 50 lbs of lead shot for $75.  I could make flat boxes that mount to my baffles at the bottoms and rest on my footer crossbar.  This would add 25 lbs of damped mass to the base of each baffle as well as add a stiffener to the bottom of the baffle.  

Anybody have ideas whether this is a good or bad idea?  Again, I'm not trying to "fix" any particular issue I'm hearing.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #546 - 08/15/19 at 16:45:34
 
Archie, you could go the cheap route and fill some Ziploc freezer bags with coarse sand.  I'm going to try this first to see how it sounds.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #547 - 08/15/19 at 16:49:18
 
I thought of sand but the lead gives so much more weight/volume.  I think 25 lbs of shot fits into about 100 cubic inches (10"X10"X1").  Nice low profile.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #548 - 08/15/19 at 17:04:08
 

Quote:
So I have done some reading and generally, the purists say minimize vibration in the baffle.  Otherwise, you add something to the music that is not in the recording.  It seems people go to great lengths.  Even making baffles out of cement, marble, etc.  


Remember sound travels through solids faster than through air.  

The energy in the speaker baffle could therefor travel through the baffle and launch off the baffle without the assumed delay causing the entire baffle to become an extension of the speaker cone and with the same timing (phase angle).

Now, obviously if your baffle material is thin, has more than 3 open sides, or has a lot of connecting frames and hardware you are setting yourself up for a good smearing of the phase angle coming off the baffles and hardware relative to the phase angle coming off the cone.

None of this is going to happen with a solid hardwood baffle nearly 2 inches thick that sets on the floor and has curved sides. This is what I've been trying to illustrate with this project. By enlarging Randy's baffle design we can start to understand it's magic a little more.

The body buzz comes from the speed of the baffle as a transducer in so much as the x-max of the wood itself is probably .001 so there is no overhang or slop from the sound it launches and the wave launch is larger than the listener x 2.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #549 - 08/15/19 at 17:15:29
 
Archie,

The fundamental difference between you and Pals base design is the contact points with the baffle -- there are two spaced apart.  

To drain vibration evenly from the whole baffle, the base should make contact across the entire back side at the bottom similar to the ones I did.  

My advise would be to just fill it in with hardwood (glued in place). Tossing a bag of sand or shot on the base when it's all finished could only help.

Steve
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