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New ERRx  Speakers Received  ???? (Read 1068 times)
Pragone
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New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
09/22/17 at 17:39:54
 
Hi Everyone,  I just purchased a pair of ERRx.  I have a question.  How long to these speakers take to burn in.   I have been running them at 60- 85 db for 17 hrs so far.   To set the stage this is for my wife's system. She asked to turn our guest room into a listening room for her.
She wanted a tube amp and unusual (no Box) speakers.)  So it has to look and sound a certain way.

Back to the ERRx.  The sound stage is pretty large -may be a little height restricted not sure.  However, the Mid-range is very prominent and forward - in your face.  Sounds a little congested and voices are a bit thin and hollow - sounds a little like when you cup you hands around your mouth and sing Smiley .  My wife said it sounds like they are singing in a tunnel.  Both of us prefer a more laid back open mid-range.

She is using a Primaluna Integrated & Project Perspex TT Ortofon Quintet Blue.  I have some GIK Bass traps with diffusers available.

My Other system is Magnepan .7 with Rogue and VPI Prime.
The Magnepan have very even open and clear mid range and sounds more natural as does my other set of Energy veritas speakers (HT).  Granted they are well broken in.  

I've also recently listened to Ohm Tall 1000 that also had what appeared to me a more laid back and clear mid-range but there were other issues that will go unmentioned.

I ask because in my experience speakers break and evolve but don't generally change their basic sound. Though perhaps in this case I'm wrong.

Are the ERRx just voiced to have a prominent MR?

Any input on the ERRx sound and break in time would be appreciated. We are trying not to draw conclusions until 30 hrs passes.  But its tough with a new toy. Tongue
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alper_yilmaz
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #1 - 09/22/17 at 18:08:29
 
Dear Pragone,

I am not familiar with ERRx specifically, but my experience with most speakers is they need a solid 500 hours before they reach a steady state.  After the first 100 hours or so, the distinguishing characteristics of the speakers start becoming more prominent.  After 200 hours, they relax further and start sounding as they should.  After that, they keep on maturing.  With full-range single drivers, my experience is that it takes even longer, but 500 hours is the final turning point for me in general.

Of course, this is under conditions that the speakers are driven properly.  If you drive them at a very low volume, it takes ages for them to break-in, if ever.

Again, IME and IMHO...

Best,

Alper
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will
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #2 - 09/22/17 at 19:06:05
 
Though I have not heard ERRs either, I have MG944s and HR-1s (radial and forward drivers), presumably by design having greater forward focus than ERRs. My speaker don't sound anything like you describe, though the HR-1 did have a disconcerting feel that made me feel a little "dizzy" at first the way the room dealt with them...maybe a very slight out-of-sync delay in the upper mids and highs???

This disappeared with more burnin, better speaker placement and speaker tuning. I can't recall exactly how long they took to limber up, but it was much longer than 25 hours, and that hyper-focus you are hearing fits with driver and tweeter tightness I think. I seem to recall more like 100 hours to really "loosen up," and then refinement for a long time after that. This sounds similar to Apler's experience. But what you describe sounds like more than burnin.

In my room, for the most part the HR-1 radial influence created richness and complexity, not that strange tube-like focus you describe. And not leanness of voices, though the tweeter newness and angle is bound to contribute to this. How the tweeter creates room reflection buildups and nulls could really throw off the mids balance.

I guess you have tried playing with speaker placement and toe. Getting the speaker out more from the corners and positioned for best frequency balance in the room?

Without much treatment, you are very likely getting some weird frequency imbalances from reflections. Changing the speaker position and toe, or changing the angle of the tweeters on the speaker, you may find a more pleasing room reflection influence.

Also the resistors for the tweeters. Have you tried different values, increasing tweeter volume with a lower value resistor to see what that does, or using a higher value resistor to attenuate the tweeter and see what that does.

Finally, congestion is likely contributed by room as well. Is the bass a little muddled? Other than burnin, if you are getting buildups of some frequency areas that fill in lower mids, making them less open, and if the bass is murky, you could try plugging some of the plinth space. Sort of like the resistors for the tweeter, reducing plinth space reduces the power of the passive radiator, reducing bass energy and tightening/opening bass and low mids. I used some thick/dense door gasket foam material, and played around until I got the bass and mids I liked. In my room, this took a lot of plinth space closing...so don't be shy if it comes to that...Might try just closing off the back altogether for a start...the incrementally subtracting or adding plug material.

Hope this helps. It does not make sense to me for this speaker to hyper focus, and lack richness and open but not too forward clarity. May just take a little work on the speakers and room to find.
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« Last Edit: 09/22/17 at 20:55:42 by will »  

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Pragone
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #3 - 09/22/17 at 19:21:38
 

i appreciate the  suggestions.  

I have some treatments Bass Traps with diffusers I've been playing with but not seriously at this early stage.  

The Room is slightly more reflective than my other room , but when I swap the ERRx with my Magnepan the Cupped Midrange follows them into the Other room. The Magnepans while brighter in this room don't change character much at all. Especially using digital (FLAC) sources.  Hard to compare analogue due to the different front ends.

Also I can't adjust the tweeters to much there is not much play in the connecting wire.  So I've even tiled the own speaker to see if it changes.  

Yes I've moved them all around the room bigger affect on sound stage not so much on the Midrange.  Again the Character of the sound.    

I'll give them a good 100 ours as quick as I can.  Only have 30 days   Smiley

Keep opinions coming...   Especially from any ERRx owners out there.
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Lon
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #4 - 09/22/17 at 19:23:12
 
You've been given good advice! If I recollect it took quite a few hours for the ERR--I have ERR not in use right now, not ERRx--to open up and the upper and lower mid-range both to appear more neutral.

What you are describing sounds to me a combination of the bass not quite coming in yet (that takes a few hundred hours in my experience) and the treble being quite attenuated, or not connected. As Will suggests I would recommend insuring that the resistors to the tweeters are properly connected and experimenting with lower values to increase tweeter output. . . .

These speakers when broken in and set up well are stunning in their unique preservation--your wife should enjoy them.
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« Last Edit: 09/22/17 at 19:24:57 by Lon »  

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Pragone
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #5 - 09/22/17 at 20:11:00
 
May be I'll give a new resistor a shot shortly.    The 5W  15 ohm  J  Resistors are solidly in place.  
Thanks
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Lon
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #6 - 09/22/17 at 20:21:12
 
For many that is rather high an attenuation. . . and may be in part responsible for this sound.
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Pragone
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #7 - 09/23/17 at 11:31:34
 
I have a few new resistor pairs on order.  Not sure what effect they will have on the mid-range,  The top end seem very pleasing with 15 ohm resistors but you never know.  

Lon,  I'm hoping the wife likes them if she does we will get a custom finish with curly maple.  Oddly she said she wished they were bigger.  

I'm at approx 36 hrs on them after a brief respite...   By Monday I should be approaching 80 hrs  so hopefully then we will sit down for a listen and see how they compare to the Magnepans.
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Lon
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #8 - 09/23/17 at 11:36:54
 
It's not going to change the midrange, but it will effect the overall balance. Here's hoping they sound great soon!
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lLance
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #9 - 09/23/17 at 14:07:21
 
I have the ERRx speakers and enjoy them very much. Give them a chance to breakin properly before changing resistors and pull them away from the walls, into the middle of the room as much as possible anyway.

I own Janszen electrostats and Tekton Double Impacts. The ERRx are my wife's favorite speakers. She loves the sound of these above the others. They also work very well in an acoustically challenging room without any treatments and diffusers are a waste with these with this type of speaker sine they provide a natural diffusion. Give them a chance.
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will
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #10 - 09/23/17 at 16:48:50
 
I have played around a lot with refining and tuning the highs in my system/room just because the quality and quantity of the highs impact the whole of the sound in pretty big ways. And though the "just right" values and the actual make of caps and resistors needed to tune the tweeter output will vary between systems and rooms, and by tastes, finding synergy in how the tweeter is tuned really makes a mark.

When all is in balance, the information and character of the highs mix transparently with the information of the mids and bass, changing their character. Similarly, the levels and quality of bass in the balance effects the mids and feel of the highs. Roughly speaking, more bass...thicker, darker mids. More highs....more open textures, space, edge definition, etc, effecting the mids and bass feel. Over or under-doing the bass or high information defines the feel of the mids, so finding the best balance can be revelatory.

Bob designs speakers to be in balance, and in most cases, the balance he chooses will fit, but each system room is different, and each person's tastes are different, so tuning can be a nice tool. Especially if the sounds does not quite work in your setting.

In this case, hoping resistor value might make burnin more enjoyable, it is easy and inexpensive to explore with standard Wirewound type ceramic resistors. So I am glad you ordered some. Then, later, after burnin looking at better sounding resistors is a good option.

I don't know the cap value the ERRx tweeter has, but likely it does not go into the mids much if any. I have the same tweeters on the HR-1s and MG944s. On the HR-1s I am using 3.63 uf caps, and that rolls off the tweeter at about 8750 Hertz. Pretty high! But changing the overall sound balance by adjusting the quantity and quality of the tweeter information is amazing. By trying different resistor values and qualities, in a revealing system, the mids will feel harsher or smoother...unbalanced or complete, denser or more open...textured or defined, warm or lean, etc.

The resistor being a basic volume control, like different potentiometers, or attenuators, all sound different. It is the same with resistors and caps. This is why the caps and resistors chosen for the tweeter are so important.

So looking at resistors to balance the sound, ultimately the value is very important, but also how it is made will seriously influence on the sound in a revealing system/room. I ended up with 3 ohm Duelund silver resistors here after trying lots of values and several makes.

Once you find the resistor value you like most, you could then put in a Mundorf M-resist Supremes of that value, or either style of Duelund, and have three different midrange feels.

Though I would not go into better resistor exploration until the speakers have several hundred hours or more, playing around with the cheaper and decent Wirewound ceramic resistors to get a more comfortable balance as you wade through burn in is not a risk, and could make the speakers much more enjoyable as they burn in.

If you have some small gauge, flexible copper or silver wire around, to see how much adjusting the tweeter changes the overall sound, you could replace the 15 ohm resistors you have with straight wire and hear the tweeter unattenuated. You may like it better than what you have, and at the very least, it would provide a point of reference as to how the tweeter, unburned in as it is, effects the overall balance of sound.

In both of my speakers, the same tweeters you have were pretty rigid for 100 or more hours...They will smooth out and become more complex, influencing the mids with these qualities.
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« Last Edit: 09/23/17 at 17:00:07 by will »  

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Tommy Freefall
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #11 - 09/26/17 at 17:46:06
 
Pragone, upon initial receipt of my new ERRxs my first thought was they sounded very thin – very little bass. I was a bit disappointed and figured at some point I’d probably add a SW to fill in the low end.
But after about 3-4 weeks of playing them frequently, one day while not paying close attention I suddenly noticed they had bass, and it sound quite nice!  I no longer have an interest in a SW (although I’ll likely purchase the ZRock soon).
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Pragone
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #12 - 09/28/17 at 01:42:45
 
Hey guys  thsnkd for your responses,    you all were right.  After about 115 hours  the speaker has become much much better.   Initially they couldn't hold a candle to the magnepan. Rven st tge 75 -80 hour mark i couldn't  sit and enjoy them.  I've heard other speakers break in, but none have been do dramatic.      My wife and I just spent 2 hours listening and comparing our speakers  in the same system, and the improvement is dramatic.   Now it is a matter of the speakers both sounding good just different.   But I assume the ERRx still have s way to go.  

Now it's like I'm in the 5th row looking at a wide stage with the Errx vs msy be the  25th row with the Maggie's more laid back sound.  

I believe the Errx has very good timbre which is important to me.  

They are certainly going in the right dirrction.
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Pragone
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #13 - 09/30/17 at 00:53:27
 
Hey Will,

I think you are spot on,  I reduced the Resistor to 10 and then 5 Ohn.  then I went Straight Silver wire,  Way To Extreme.  2.5 - 3.5 Ohms may be the sweet spot for me as well.

I haven't been able to find the Mundorf or the Dueland caps in the 3 ohm value.   What site do you purchase them from?

Also I see a lot of 10 W Resistors,  Will they sound different than 5W (a 5w 15 ohm was provided by Decware).
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Pragone
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #14 - 10/13/17 at 18:18:24
 
The Speakers have broken very nicely.  I've never heard a speaker change this much over time as these have.  to wit I have finalized an order for a custom finish.   I'm still  playing with the resistors to refine the sound.

Thanks for the recommendations.

Cheers
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Lon
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Re: New ERRx  Speakers Received  ????
Reply #15 - 10/13/17 at 18:34:16
 
Great news! I bet they will look great in that finish. My HR-1s are maple finished andy why look awesome!
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