Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
10/17/17 at 19:56:20 



 
 


Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
The Betsy Deuce (Read 588 times)
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
The Betsy Deuce
08/21/17 at 21:19:54
 

A new item has been added to the Caintuck Audio Betsy barn .....  

A customer in Germany (who has become a friend) purchased a pair of Betsy baffles in Sapele hardwood and a matching pair of Augie bass baffles a few months ago.
After many attempts to seamlessly integrate the two pairs of speakers, he was not satisfied with the frequency range where the Betsy baffle starts to roll off .....

After giving the issue some thought, he emailed me and requested a custom pair of Betsy baffles with the option for an inductor on the driver that would roll it off at 80 HZ at a 6 db slope. He told me that there were quite a few speakers on the market using pairs of identical drivers with one of them implemented in this way to "beef up" the frequency where the driver rolled off naturally. The theory was to run the second pair of Betsy baffles in parallel with the first pair and then cross the Augie baffles at a much lower point where seamless integration would be more successful.

It sounded reasonable to me, so I built another pair in Sapele hardwood to his specifications.  Before shipping them to him, I hooked them up in my home system in parallel with another pair of Betsy baffles to get an idea of what the results would be .....

Well ..... just as he predicted, the upper bass frequencies were increased by a substantial amount ..... and the beauty of it was that I could not tell that two pairs of baffles were in use from my listening seat (or anywhere else in the room). On albums such as "Dawg's Groove" by the Dave Grisman Quintet, the acoustic double bass sounded absolutely wonderful and all of my other "bass test tracks" were benefitted to a similar degree.

So ..... after shipping the custom baffles to Germany, I remembered that a version of the Betsy driver was available without the whizzer cone.
I ordered a couple of pairs and when they arrived a pair of baffles was built with one standard Betsy driver and one driver without the whizzer cone and with an inductor wired in.

Here are the results .....



Obviously, they don't produce the level of bass that a separate baffle (or two) with Alpha 12" or 15" drivers or Augie drivers will ..... but the bass is extremely well integrated and will be a nice option for those who don't have room for additional bass baffles or simply don't want additional baffles in the room.

Larger photo here.

Right now, I have the inductors in separate boxes for testing, but in the production speaker it will be inside the binding post enclosure.

The Betsy Deuce will be added to the available speaker page of my website in the near future with pricing and options.

I will be bringing a pair to the Decware Zen Fest 2017 in October to get some feedback from the attendees.

Happy listening,
Randy
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/21/17 at 21:58:45 by Randy in Caintuck »  

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 3070
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #1 - 08/22/17 at 04:11:26
 
Nice !
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Jeff of Arabica
Seasoned Member
****


"Music is what
feelings sound
like" -Georgia
Cates

Posts: 288
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #2 - 08/22/17 at 04:28:46
 
Hi Randy,
Great to hear from you and always love innovation!  I can't wait to hear them at Decfest this year.

So, having read your post, describing this arrangement and the benefit of such, it begs the question...  is this similar (at least in concept) to what Omega has arranged in the Super Alnico High Outputs?  I know the two 6.5" drivers in the Omega's are identical except one has the whizzer.  I am a believer of the concept.  The way Louis has them configured (crossover-less) with the coil, is magical.  The bass is authoritative, yet refined.  I have never had a set of speakers in which I invoke my bass drivers less frequently.  But when I do, they so easily, and seamlessly integrate with my Omegas.  

That being said, that pair of Augie baffles you created is truly exceptional.  I have been meaning to post about my bass driver amplifier journey - and I will soon.  I have had four different amps in my system driving my Augies and there is ONE clear winner.  The other three were decent enough (Dayton, Crown, Behringer), but the amp I settled on is in a different league, for more than one solid/important reason.  I went into this dual Augie arrangement thinking any "good" amplifier will do, but over time, realized, it simply ain't that simple.  Loving the dual Augies you built me.  So SOLID, beautiful, and talented these bass drivers are.  Thank you and looking forward to shaking your hand in Peoria, IL in a few weeks.
Back to top
 
 

ZMA//Zen Ultra//Torii//ZDSD//PS Audio DirectStream DAC + Memory Player + P10//Rachael//Super Zen Triode//Taboo MK III//Muse Phono Stage//Zen Head//SonoruS R2R w/ tube playback pre-amp//OPPO BDP-205//Omega SAHOs//Monoliths//Ultrasone Signature Pros//UM Miracle CIEM
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #3 - 08/22/17 at 17:09:58
 


Thanks Steve .....  

Hi Jeff,

Indeed, the concept and arrangement is very similar to the Omega speakers ..... and it wouldn't surprise me if the Omegas were one of the speakers my customer in Germany was thinking of.

The only problem I see with the open baffle implementation of this arrangement is that you don't have the ability to "tune" the frequency response like you do in a boxed speaker ..... at least with baffles as small as the ones I prefer.

My biggest gripe in the audio hobby for many years now is the quality of the recordings themselves ..... truthfully, it is "all over the map".

With the Betsy Deuce speakers playing something like "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" by Bela Fleck, the amount and quality of the bass (even deep bass) is mind boggling ..... and I have quite a few recordings in my stash that are in that class.

However, many recordings have "weak" or indistinct bass and the lack of quality can be easily heard using revealing equipment and speakers.
One note bass drives me to distraction and it is all too common ..... especially in many digital recordings.

Of course, that is not the fault of the speakers ..... but when you hear really well recorded bass it makes you a bit unhappy with the recordings that are "lacking" .....

Your thoughts on amplification for bass are very interesting and I'm looking forward to hearing your comments.
Truthfully, I'm not as impressed with the Crown amp as a lot of folks are ..... but it was recently suggested to me that reversing the polarity to the bass drivers makes it a lot better. I need to try that as soon as time permits.

I have one more project to share that also addresses the issue of bass and will post a thread in a day or two.

As a teaser ..... the project is called "Betsy & Buck" .....  

I am greatly looking forward to meeting you in October .....

Happy listening,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
deucekazoo
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 301
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #4 - 08/22/17 at 19:40:50
 
Randy, beautiful looking speaker. I can't wait to hear them at
Steve's place. See you then.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #5 - 08/22/17 at 22:08:22
 


Hi Deuce,

Thanks for the kind words .....

My apologies for plagiarizing part of your forum name ..... but the name just seemed so appropriate .....

The baffles in the photo are rift sawn red oak plywood with a red mahogany stain. I think they turned out pretty nicely .....

Looking forward to seeing you in Peoria,

Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
Lin
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 293
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #6 - 08/23/17 at 04:11:25
 
Reminds me of 11 years ago and the B200. Wink

IME using 2 drivers like this makes integrating a low bass system much easier.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #7 - 08/23/17 at 12:44:41
 


Hi Lin,

Man ..... that brings back some memories .....  

I remember following the "Gravity Well Of A DarkStar" thread on the AudioCircle forum and that got me started down the OB path. I owe the B200 a tremendous debt of gratitude for introducing me to the wonders of a full range 8" driver.

Looking forward to seeing you again in October .....

Best wishes,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Verified Member
**




Posts: 29
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #8 - 09/26/17 at 21:03:02
 
Just saw this thread. Randy, those speakers look great and are similar to what I had been thinking about. The roll-off of the regular Betsy driver baffle starts a bit too high up to get a really easy integration with a 15" bass driver. I have been playing around with measuring all kinds of crossover configurations. I can get good integration, but not quite perfect. I'd been thinking it would help to have another small driver on the baffle.

I may have to get motivated again and try this.

Dave Smiley
Back to top
 
 

The only thing that sounds prettier than a banjo is the sound of a cat getting a shampoo in a flushing toilet.
WWW   IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #9 - 09/26/17 at 22:31:44
 


Hi Dave,

For whatever reason, it's a lot easier for me to integrate the Betsy driver with a stock Eminence Alpha 15" driver than it is to integrate an Augie driver. Several of the visitors to the storefront came to the same conclusion.

When my customer (and new audio buddy) in Germany made the suggestion to add a second Betsy driver with an inductor on the second driver, I had no idea what to expect ..... but it worked out better than I could have hoped for, and the Betsy driver without the whizzer cone is a natural for this purpose .....  

I have been doing some serious testing and experimenting with the Betsy Deuce using an outboard interface box I made that allows me to quickly swap various values of inductors for comparison.

The values tested ranged from crossing the whizzerless Betsy at points between 80 and 240 HZ. There are subtle differences with each of these values and quite honestly it often depends on the recording which one sounds "best".

Even so, I have pretty much decided where I will cross the "production" version at and we will see what the Decware Fest attendees think of my conclusion.

I continue to be amazed at the disparity in the quality of bass in various recordings. Some recordings have bass that is extremely tuneful and natural sounding while other recordings are pretty much "thump, thump, thump" .....  

In addition to that, the level of the bass goes from nearly inaudible to way over the top.

Having said that, with a recording that has really good bass ..... the Betsy Deuce goes a lot deeper than I expected it to. A standard, single driver Betsy baffle has a "laid back" 80 HZ response in my listening room.  The Betsy Deuce has a very robust 80 HZ response and actually has audible output to 60 HZ.

That alone will make it a lot easier to integrate with a larger driver.
My "reference" bass test track is "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" by Bela Fleck and the Betsy Deuce is making my knee caps buzz when playing this song at a pretty modest volume level .....

Happy listening,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Verified Member
**




Posts: 29
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #10 - 09/27/17 at 01:24:18
 
Quote:
For whatever reason, it's a lot easier for me to integrate the Betsy driver with a stock Eminence Alpha 15" driver than it is to integrate an Augie driver. Several of the visitors to the storefront came to the same conclusion.


Randy,

You must remember that the 15 Augie was designed to integrate with a 15" coaxial driver that could get a decent 45 Hz on an OB. The original Silver Iris had bass response similar to a 15 Alpha. The Augie wasn't really designed to mate with an 8" driver on a small baffle.

Dave Smiley
Back to top
 
 

The only thing that sounds prettier than a banjo is the sound of a cat getting a shampoo in a flushing toilet.
WWW   IP Logged
Jeff of Arabica
Seasoned Member
****


"Music is what
feelings sound
like" -Georgia
Cates

Posts: 288
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #11 - 09/27/17 at 01:50:24
 
But boy do my dual 15" OB Caintuck "Augie" bass drivers integrate well with my Omega SAHO's -  and they are gorgeous to boot.  Thanks again Randy for these amazing bass drivers!

Looking forward to shaking your hand in Peoria soon Randy.  And of course checking out your latest creations  :o
Back to top
 
 

ZMA//Zen Ultra//Torii//ZDSD//PS Audio DirectStream DAC + Memory Player + P10//Rachael//Super Zen Triode//Taboo MK III//Muse Phono Stage//Zen Head//SonoruS R2R w/ tube playback pre-amp//OPPO BDP-205//Omega SAHOs//Monoliths//Ultrasone Signature Pros//UM Miracle CIEM
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #12 - 09/27/17 at 03:38:14
 


Howdy Dave,

That makes perfect sense to me .....  
Thanks for the explanation.

Hi Jeff,

Your success with the Omega / Augie integration doesn't surprise me.
I built a similar pair of Augie baffles in solid walnut for a local friend and they sound superb with a high quality pair of custom built bookshelf speakers he owns.

Looking forward to meeting you in East Peoria,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #13 - 10/01/17 at 16:54:04
 


I have been spending quite a bit of time lately (burning the midnight oil) listening to and fine tuning the new Betsy based creations that will be making the trip with me to Zen Fest 2017 .....  

I'm pretty happy with all three ..... the Betsy & Buck, Betsy AMT and the Betsy Deuce.

Something the Betsy Deuce baffles have allowed me to do is to get a good perspective of the quality of the bass in many of the recordings in my music collection.

While the additional 8" driver without the whizzer cone does not plumb the subterranean depths of bass frequencies, it certainly adds a bit of warmth to the presentation and when the quality of the bass is good it's making audible 60 HZ bass in my listening room in a very tasty and tuneful way.

Last night, I was listening to the song "She's Not There" from the Christy Baron CD " Steppin' " (Chesky label) and was totally blown away by how tight and natural sounding the bass is on this track.

If the bass on all recordings was done this well ..... I would be a very happy person .....  

At this point in time, I'm thinking that a pair of these speakers and a Decware SE84UFO will make all but the most deep bass hungry music lovers very happy ..... in a compact and reasonably priced package.

Looking forward to seeing everyone in a few days,

Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 3070
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #14 - 10/02/17 at 06:08:30
 
Quote:
I have been spending quite a bit of time lately (burning the midnight oil) listening to and fine tuning the new Betsy based creations that will be making the trip with me to Zen Fest 2017 .....  


Hehe... pressure.  

Randy, if you have about an 8 foot pair of flexible speaker cable, with banana jacks on one end and either nothing or spades on the other, we can hook up the imperial SO's to your speakers just as we do the ZOB to see what that's like.  If not, come early enough so we can whip a pair together from some shop wire, which is all I am using for the ZOB's.

The room sounds far more precise than it did last year...  I'm sure you will be pleased ; )

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 580
Re: The Betsy Deuce
Reply #15 - 10/03/17 at 03:06:30
 


Hi Steve,

Sounds like a plan .....

I already have several sets of cables made up to allow quick connections for the various ways of configuring the Betsy & Buck baffles ..... both passive and active. With all of those cables, your suggestion will be a piece of cake .....  

Of course, if the SO Imperials actually sound better than they did last year ..... you might have to forcibly evict some of the attendees when the Decware Fest is over on Sunday .....  

Four days and counting,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB DAC / tablet
Decware Model SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles and Alpha bass baffles
WWW   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print