Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
12/17/17 at 16:01:18 





 



Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
ZROCK Tube Rolling (Read 1749 times)
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
ZROCK Tube Rolling
08/06/17 at 18:38:37
 
I have about 50 hours on my ZROCK2 and it is hitting its stride with a wider and deeper soundstage (than when it was brand new (three days ago).

The tube Steve supplied is a red tip 5963 made in U.S.A. and Steve told me he found some special NOS tubes for the ZROCK.

I am curious what is the make of the tube that Steve supplied (it is a short plate gray with two long ribs and three cross ribs (like a double pane window). The "Window Pane" is flanked by two small rectangle holes aligned with the center cross rib.

Photos to follow

I have enjoyed tube rolling in the past, does anyone have any suggestions or should I just enjoy the tube Steve supplied for the 10,000 hours

Peter
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #1 - 08/06/17 at 19:15:59
 
My research says the 5963 U.S.A. gray plates is a RCA tube
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #2 - 08/06/17 at 20:11:55
 
Peter, thanks for weighing in. If you are enjoying the sound of that tube, keep using it for a while. It sounds as if it's a good one.

I'm interested in hearing more of your sonic impressions!
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #3 - 08/06/17 at 21:06:43
 

I agree with the following that another member posted:

The ZROCK made a very noticeable improvement in density throughout the frequency range everything sounded richer, fuller with more detail and with an unexpected increase in the soundstage which surprised me.

I am really surprised by how much more information I am hearing now and how much wider and deeper the soundstage seems to be.

I was also concerned that I would have too much bass, you know the non musical fill in type bass, not the case at all, everything is very balanced tight and full.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #4 - 08/06/17 at 21:11:03
 
Thanks. It's a long wait for mine!
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #5 - 09/13/17 at 22:09:28
 
The RCA 12au7 Tube That Steve D uses seems to offer a fuller lush sound than The $80 Mazda 12au7 that I used for tube rolling.  Sometimes the RCA is a little too lush (syrupy), but the Mazda is a little boring, but more linear sound.

I keep going back and forth.

Any one else try tube rolling in a ZRock Undecided Undecided
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #6 - 09/14/17 at 00:29:03
 
Back To The Mazda, tighter bass and clarity but a little boring Cool
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
SonicSeeker
Seasoned Member
****


Listening to the
music not the
equipment

Posts: 317
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #7 - 09/14/17 at 19:08:48
 
I have tried RCA clear tops RCA grey plates Gold Lion re-issue and the one Steve provides. I ended up using the Gold Lion it seemed to give a good balance between nice tight bass and a fuller lush sound. I also like that it is a current production tube so I will be able to replace it when needed. I am sure curiosity will cause me to try some more of course, but I am happy for now.
Back to top
 
 

Torii Jr
ZROCK
Manley Chinook
Sonist Concerto4
VPI Signature Classic Rosewood

  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #8 - 09/25/17 at 00:34:07
 
I found a RCA Command 5814A in my stash, it adds the bass punch that the Mazda was missing without the syrupy sound the supplied RCA 12au7,
a happy medium or blend between the two?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #9 - 09/25/17 at 00:35:30
 
I meant the red tip 5963 made in U.S.A. (RCA?) that came with the ZROCK
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #10 - 09/25/17 at 00:40:28
 
The last few components I have gotten from Steve have had red-tipped tubes, and NOT NOS so I believe Steve is red-tipping these tubes himself. . . .
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #11 - 10/15/17 at 17:46:24
 
I am auditioning one last tube (or just till next time I get curious).

A 1970 CV429 Brimar (or maybe a Mullard) 15 mm Gray Plate, Made at the Blackburn Mullard Factory.  Use this tube for music, or

A RCA Command 5814A, shiny short backplate, for extra bass when watching movies or TV. it has a pushy bass that is great for video, buts gets a little muddy in the bass for some music.

The next tube may be a new production in Russia Gold Lion Reissue, does anyone think the Gold Lion will be in the same league.

Thanks,

Peter Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #12 - 10/15/17 at 17:48:34
 
Correction the 5814A RCA Command has a punchy Bass for Video, (perky?, Dynamic?).
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #13 - 10/15/17 at 18:08:14
 
Interesting. I've read good things about the Gold Lion, worth checking out.

When I get my ZROCK2 (probably a few months from now) I am going to try an Amperex 6085 I have and an RCA 6189. I have the tubes. . . ready and able.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 3106
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #14 - 10/16/17 at 02:57:23
 
Yes, once I have selected an ideal tube I red tip it to distinguish it from other tubes.  

The first thing I do is match the sections so that we have perfect channel balance.  

Then I check the harmonic distortion of each section to be sure it not only matches in total % but then also matches in harmonics.  Occasionally a tube (or tubes) will have an unexplained difference in each section on the 3rd or 4th or 5th harmonic.  

The tube is then run in and cycled a couple times to ensure stability.  

This series of tests not even the best tube tester can accomplish, so without these tests there is a certain degree of "unknown" with any tube.

We just want to start you off with the absolute best tubes possible so that you have a solid reference to compare with when or if you roll tubes.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #15 - 10/22/17 at 13:34:17
 
UPDATE

I was able to secure a BRIMAR CV 4003 from the early sixties, this is an big upgrade in the Mid to Highs with tighter bass.

I have sent Back the CV429, the CV4003 in simply better, with a more 3D sound,.

I hope I am now finish in my recent tube rolling hobby.

It is time to just relax and listen to the music.

Peter
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #16 - 10/22/17 at 17:03:37
 
CORRECTION:

The tube I sent back was a 1970 BRIMAR CV491, not a CV429 I referred to in previous posts


Peter Cry Cry Cry
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #17 - 11/06/17 at 13:09:11
 
Tungsram 12au7. Great low noise tube with a more neutral and smooth presentation, and great bass. A cheaper alternative to the Brimar, but in the same league, maybe a little tighter bass.

My system likes a more neutral mid range, but the Brimar 12au7 is also a special tube (System dependent for which tube, both are great).

Try it you will like it.

Peter
Back to top
 

b4aa4432fef4d55833a6008281c18e18_large.jpg
  IP Logged
P K
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 204
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #18 - 11/06/17 at 13:10:51
 
Photo Of Brimar CV 4003/12au7
Back to top
 

2672ec8deb3ecc7027ffbb9eba312421_large.jpg
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #19 - 11/21/17 at 15:45:42
 
Thanks for the tube tips P K.

Steve sent me an excellent RCA tube with the ZROCK2, perhaps the same as he sent you. I like it a lot, but I had also purchased two pairs of tubes in anticipation of receiving the unit and have rolled those in.

One, the Amperex 6085 is a massive tube, as big as an EL84 or SV83, and has a very clear, open, big sound with no hint of warmth or lushness. It's great with hi-res material, but just a bit forward for me with Redbook (most of my listening). I have been popping it in for hi-res listening.

The other are RCA 6189 and at first I didn't care for this tube but it needed time to burn in and settle down and now it is very close to the RCA that Steve sent and is perhaps a bit more clear and dynamic with a touch less warmth or lushness. I'm leaving it in for now, it's doing a really good job with EQ A at adding a bit of heft and punch to lean recordings and taming a bit of harshness on brighter, edgy recordings.

The ZROCK2 is a formidable beast for taking charge of the system sound!
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
calord
Verified Member
**




Posts: 3
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #20 - 11/21/17 at 17:45:48
 
My new ZROCK2 arrives some time today! Can't wait.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #21 - 11/21/17 at 17:56:54
 
Awesome calord! Keep us posted.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Tal
Verified Member
**




Posts: 37
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #22 - 11/22/17 at 20:29:36
 
colord - Nice! Mine is scheduled to arrive this coming Monday!!!!!
Back to top
 
 

Decware SE84UFO2 x 2 (mono blocks) , ZP3, Zrock2, DHC-1, DSR, Rega P3-24, TTPSU, Groovetracer subplatter and delrin platter, Omega Super 3HO, Blumenstein Orca mini and Benthic sub
  IP Logged
calord
Verified Member
**




Posts: 3
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #23 - 11/22/17 at 21:55:22
 
Hi Lon, Tal.....  My new ZROCK2 did arrive yesterday/Tuesday.  I took my time unpacking and warming it up to extend the fun!  I patched it in between my pre and amps.....and began to listen.  First without EQ....sounded good. Played with the knob....then switched in EQ A and dialed....at loud levels it did just what I hoped it would....unti I turned down the volume and the EQ up.....  ARGH!  Big hum! I did all diagnosis: swapped/rerouted cables, interchanged channels, reassured all connections, EQ A, EQ B, in/defeat/in/defeat.  I even ran it without the inputs cables connected.  Bottom line: Big Hum when either EQ is active and it increases directly with the knob from 12:00 o'clock to max EQ.  I immediately called Decware, got Josh who went to find Steve.  Steve was out...no call back.  I called this morning/left message, and again this afternoon...no response yet.   Embarrassed  I am sure Steve will make it right, but, I gotta admit to disappointment on the eve of thanksgiving.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #24 - 11/22/17 at 22:39:15
 
Well, I've some hum too, just as I had hum with a CSP2+ for a long time, I can definitely hear it near the speaker but not at all at the listening position.

It took me a while with the CSP2+ but I finally found that paying attention to cable placement cleared up the hum for me. Now in this home and set up it is harder to get behind and reroute cables so I haven't yet done so, but I'm pretty sure in my case that would cure it. Even though I use shielded cables at some point hum comes in. . . .I'll separate power and interconnects as much as I can and I bet mine goes away. Hope it's as simple as that for you. (What I have now doesn't really effect the sound for me, and no hum at all when I use the ZROCK2 to feed the Taboo Mk IV, so it's cabling around the Torii is my guess.)
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #25 - 11/22/17 at 22:42:30
 
Tal, I saw your ZROCK2 was about to ship last time I was looking at the Build List. Just have to get through the holiday weekend! Smiley Happy Thanksgiving.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
calord
Verified Member
**




Posts: 3
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #26 - 11/22/17 at 23:42:45
 
Hi Lon.....  Yes, I tried the rerouting that you suggest, separating power and signal cables, different cables, etc.  My hum is in both channels and Very Audible from my listening position.  And, as mentioned, increases directly with the EQ increase.  It is virtually not there when the EQ is bypassed or turned below 12:00 o'clock.....and unchanged even with the inputs unplugged. Conclusion: it's coming from somewhere in the EQ circuitry.   Sad
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #27 - 11/23/17 at 00:02:29
 
Possible conclusion, yes. Hopefully Steve will get in touch with you soon. Hum is annoying and tricky. Hopefully yours can be identified and remedied quickly.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #28 - 12/01/17 at 21:31:06
 
Well, two weeks in and I'm back to using the tube that Steve supplied. It has a great balance of tonal fullness and a bit of lushness that no other tube I've rolled so far can match. I think it might become stuck in the ZROCK2. . . .
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #29 - 12/07/17 at 17:42:29
 
I can't help it, I keep experimenting. The ZROCK2 is just not happy sitting there unadjusted. It beguiles me into tube-rolling and playing with settings.

I've moved back to the 6085 tube. In its current state of "seasoning/undress" that the ZROCK2 is inhabiting the clarity that it brings and the pulse it seems to coax out of the system is sounding really good. With the set up I am using I can tailor the sound of my entire system with a tube and setting choice in the ZROCK2 and also by using the different settings on the PS Audio P10 and the Torii Mk III. There is a very different signature between a little twist of EQA and the P10's mode as "High Regulation" and the same twist of EQ and the P10 set to "Lowest Distortion." Also the same two combinations of settings sound different still when I move the speaker ohm switch on the Mk III from 4 to 8. For me the ZROCK2 is a different way to tweak and fine tune and play around with the sound, and I'm having fun with these new "windows."

Will, I think you might really enjoy the ZROCK2 but I hate to recommend it as it's a whole  nother black hole to strap yourself in and travel through . . . .

And Tom, as one bass-head to another, this is the stuff. Period.

With this little box I'm getting some of the best sound ever under my roof. . . .  
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/07/17 at 17:48:16 by Lon »  

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
SonicSeeker
Seasoned Member
****


Listening to the
music not the
equipment

Posts: 317
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #30 - 12/07/17 at 18:44:49
 
Just sent my original ZROCK to Steve yesterday to be updated to the New version and also add silver RCA's. Interested to see what the difference will be. He should have it there by Monday.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/07/17 at 18:47:11 by SonicSeeker »  

Torii Jr
ZROCK
Manley Chinook
Sonist Concerto4
VPI Signature Classic Rosewood

  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13036
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #31 - 12/07/17 at 19:47:15
 
Here's hoping for a speedy return! I bet it comes back better than ever!
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Tal
Verified Member
**




Posts: 37
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #32 - 12/07/17 at 21:45:10
 
calord

I haven't noticed any hum with the zrock. sorry to hear you are experiencing hum. I know Steve will get back to you to trouble shoot the problem as soon possible. Nonetheless, I know it is frustrating.

Tal
Back to top
 
 

Decware SE84UFO2 x 2 (mono blocks) , ZP3, Zrock2, DHC-1, DSR, Rega P3-24, TTPSU, Groovetracer subplatter and delrin platter, Omega Super 3HO, Blumenstein Orca mini and Benthic sub
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print