Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
09/19/17 at 16:16:10 



 
 


Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Tube time (Read 3756 times)
Donnie
Seasoned Member
****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 1079
Tube time
02/12/17 at 15:36:29
 
Alright, I'm ready to go fall into the rabbit hole that is replacing tubes in my Torii MK3.
I have always used JJ EL34's for the output. They always sounded pretty good to me, were cheap and plentiful.
I have replaced the 5U4G rectifier with a cryoed Valve Art 274B.
This morning one of my EL 4's died a noisy death complete with an internal light show of epic proportions.
So what should I replace the EL34's with??
While I'm at it I also need to replace the little OC2's because I have one that is more or less barely plugged into it's socket (A slight industrial incident from me hefting the amp around).
As far as what sound that I'm looking for, nothing comes to mind. I just like listening to music, if it sounds a little more or less lush really doesn't really register to me. I do like a little sparkle on top as evidenced by the tipped up high end of my Tang-Band's.
So what have you? Please point me in the right direction.
Back to top
 
 

Owner of the infamous RED TORII
  IP Logged
mark58
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 4525
Re: Tube time
Reply #1 - 02/12/17 at 16:55:08
 
Donnie, I have been using RFT EL 34s tubes in my Torii MK IV for years.  Love them. They can be labeled many things but most commonly Siemens or RFT...they are a fine German made tube from the 70's. Below are some ebay examples.  These will get it done!  Mark.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=rft+siemens+el34&_blrs=sp...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-EL34-power-tubes-RFT-SIEMENS-NOS-EL-34-/311680499330?...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-RFT-Seimens-EL34-Matched-Quad-Made-In-Germany-/18243...

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/17 at 16:55:45 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #2 - 02/12/17 at 17:07:58
 
I agree that RFTs are interesting and very good tubes. I personally have never been able to use them long though....too much "signature" for me I guess. Also, I tend to prefer more linearity over the last several years than you can get with most EL34s. If you want to move sideways from EL34s, you might check out this thread: http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1485622002/0

For OC2s, RCAs are the most open and clear, Raytheons similar in open clarity, but a little warmer, Mullards, similar, but a little warmer yet (though not dark)....then there are European 75C1, open and clear but with more rich complexity than all the others. My favorite in my Toriis.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/17 at 20:54:10 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
mark58
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 4525
Re: Tube time
Reply #3 - 02/12/17 at 17:54:51
 
Will, you just reminded me I still have the stock OC2s in my Torii....no idea what they are though...may need to pick up at least another pair or two.

What do you mean by Linearity?  I remember the first time I put in the RFT EL 34s replacing stock KT 66s.  I fell in love.  Had to use some 60's Russian 6P3S-E tubes until I'd tamed the highs in my system...then I went back to the beloved RFTs.  What is their signature?  I must like it Smiley  Mark.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/17 at 17:55:48 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #4 - 02/12/17 at 22:35:59
 
Hey Mark,

It would surprise me if you did not like 75C1s as OC2 replacements.

I think of signature as the combined sound tendencies expressed by something with deviation from “neutral.” And linear as having a relatively even feeling presentation bottom to top, with relatively even emphasis in every area of the definition, frequency and power range. Neutral, fits in there with linearity in terms of a tube imposing as little as possible on the sound, but of course, for most of us, doing it in a relatively friendly way...

And every tube being different sounding, most all have signatures. Some seem more neutral and linear than others though, and especially a linear/neutral power tube can be a good foundation to tune the sound from with other tubes. If the power tube does its work more forcefully, or unevenly, then it is more demanding, and limits the possibilities of mixing with other tubes.

For me, if it sticks out, I tend to hear the signature characteristics as distracting to the music. This has a lot to do with how something fits in a room and system too right? And mine is intentionally relatively live and revealing, so everything shows pretty clearly.

Of the power tubes I have tried, EL34s are probably the most "signature" oriented, with their upper mid to top end emphasis, and relatively speaking...biggish bottom, with more limited focus down low than mids up...The combination makes for "a midrange to die for" sort of sound...

A great thing about the RFT is its NOS qualities...something sort of indescribable...but having to do with finesse and agility in the expression. It does what it does really well with complex detail, and with inner detail and space rarely heard elsewhere with such a notably “warm” tube. It has excellent textured mids, convincing strong warmth (because it is dark without much detail/definition loss) and a relatively tight bass for an EL34. But it is an EL34 with the EL34 “balance.” And being a powerful power tube, it empowers these traits, causing them to be a bit too much for me...

You solved your "high" issues with other things to allow this very detailed tube to fit in, probably especially possible since it is so warm. And if the softish bass tendency fits your setup, perhaps being compensated for by other things, or perhaps just being likable, it is a great tube!

But here, and for my tastes, it is a little too mid-to-high oriented, and a little too "pressurized" in its complex detail, texture, darkish warmth, and less defined lows, the power of the tube causing sort of forcefully thicker lows than I prefer.

I like power tubes that are a little less characterful, with more even frequency and definition emphasis, and less warmth. From a relatively neutral tube, having all the good musical qualities in a lower key and more balanced feeling way than a lot of EL34s, I can enhance the great things of texture and complex detail, nice bass qualities, timbre, nuance, etc, etc with the other tubes. From a more linear and neutral power tube, I have more flexibility, and more possibility for the revealing, defined and open sound I am after.

This is also why I don't tend to use 6922/7308 types in my Torii either, preferring less force and the more open and textured tendencies of 6DJ8 and 7DJ8.

I tend to prefer tubes that are more neutral and linear in part because I like a lot of tubes, and if you start with tubes with more powerful signatures, they define what can work with them more narrowly.

But I have been going for open, neutral, slightly warm, and musical a long time, exploring detail complexity in relatively linear frequency balance as primary tools for solving upper mid to high pain. Open, defined, neutral and revealing without pain is as you know, no mean task, but this is where I like it.

And this is nitpicking...I have used both the RFTs and American Amperex 7308 a fair bit in the past, and they are no doubt great tubes if they fit your system/room and tastes. But they have more powerful "signatures" than many, and at the moment, I tend to prefer less "colorful" tubes. Just one way to approach it.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/17 at 22:43:57 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #5 - 03/03/17 at 16:54:06
 
This week I have reaffirmed how much I value and embrace the flexibility of the Torii Mk III.

I have negotiated (twice to be precise, and hopefully this time it will stick) "accepted" speaker positions for my HR-1s in the living room, and as the location is about 18" closer to the "front wall" than I am used to I am trying to get the best overall sound from the system with this speaker positioning.

I've used three different sets of output tubes and two different rectifier pairs and two different regulation tubes. And I've used my bass and treble controls judiciously.

I've found that in this location I can get great sound a number of ways. All the output tubes I'm using are from cryoset and are cryo'd. At first I was using the Reflector 6P3S-E with Sylvania 5U4G rectifiers and RCA OA3regulators. Then I tried the TAD KT-66 output tubes with the same complement, and decided to try the RCA 5V4G regulator tubes, and this was a better fit. Then I tried the JJ 6CA7 output tubes and found that they work best with the 5V4G and my trusty pair of Arcturus OB3 voltage regulator tubes.

I'm using Amperex 7308s and RCA OA2 tubes in all cases, I'm using those as my "control" complement.

The JJ complement is in right now and I'm really enjoying it. The truth is that I can make all the configurations work admirably and could be happy with each combination. What an amp the Torii Mk III is!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/03/17 at 16:55:19 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #6 - 03/12/17 at 20:27:00
 
And here just over a week later I've made more changes . . . .

Back to the coin-based Reflector 6P3S-E. With my speaker positioning bout 24" from the front wall these give me the most "depth" to the sound while retaining natural imaging and tonal balance. I've installed a pair of GE labeled Amperex made OB2 regulation tubes and this has me moving from Arcturus OB3 to bottle-shaped RCA OA3 regulation tubes. I'm getting vivid, dynamic and smoothly detailed sound right now with the Amperex 7308 input tubes and the bottle-shaped RCA 5V4 rectifiers.

Loving every second of sound from all inputs. Hopefully I'll just leave these in place for a while!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/12/17 at 20:41:28 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #7 - 03/12/17 at 20:35:44
 
Hey Lon. I don't know the "GE labeled Amperex made AO2." What is it equivalent to?

Edit...sorry. My dyslexia could even allow me to write 2AO, also, not allowing me to easily "see" OA2!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/12/17 at 20:42:02 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #8 - 03/12/17 at 20:41:01
 
Actually I mistyped, I meant to type OA2 I guess, but actually it's an OB2 or 0B2 (never know which is correct people seem to list both as a tube type). I'm using that OB2 now instead of the RCA OA2 I was using all the time I've been in Ohio in place of the stock Raytheon OC2 Steve supplied with the Torii Mk III.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/12/17 at 20:41:59 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #9 - 03/12/17 at 20:47:02
 
OB2...got it. I think I have a pair I will try. In comparison, do you find OC2 too big/dense on the inputs?

I have used only 75C1s, the Euro OC2 equivalent, for so long, I should change it up and see what I hear.

Have you tried 75C1s? Quite different...more textured warmth than Raytheon OC2s if I recall.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #10 - 03/12/17 at 20:51:39
 
No, I've never encountered any of those for sale. It's been so long since I've had OC2s in place. . . I bought a selection of RCA OA2, OB2 and OC2s and played with them for a while and when I was running KT66 of different makes I found the AO2 to work really well with my trusted Arcturus OB3s. . . and just left them in. Then I saw these OB2s for sale and popped them in, and I like them best with these Reflector tubes and found that the OA3s give more depth to the sound (which is what I'm sacrificing most having the speakers closer to the wall that I would otherwise prefer).

I'll have to pull the Raytheon OC2s out of the storage unit one of these days soon for comparison. I thought they were adding a bit of "hardness" to the sound that I wanted to soften. . . I think this was when I was using the Tung-sol (reissue) KT66s, the least favorite of the KT66s I've run.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #11 - 03/12/17 at 21:22:36
 
Makes sense to me, the lower voltage to the inputs making the overall sound less hard...and probably more open and spacious too. I have not explored them for a long time either, just sticking with the less "hard" 75C1s and various OB3s here. You can find the 75C1s on eBay if interested. I think they are similar to OC2s voltage wise, but the sound is less focussed, more complex and rich.

These are the ones I am using now, I think perhaps even from the same seller. Hard to say for sure, but I would think they might fit for you, especially with a little adjustment elsewhere.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/75C1-voltage-regulator-tube-0C2-NOS-NIB-/331179182864?ha...
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/12/17 at 21:23:59 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #12 - 03/12/17 at 21:29:04
 
Thanks. . . I ordered a pair. An inexpensive comparison. May work well with the Arcturus OB3s. Those OB3s. . . you mentioned you thought they were made by Sylvania which may be true but I bought a pair of Sylvanias and they seem and sound different. They're an interesting pair of tubes and the boxes were the oldest appearing boxes I've ever had!

Right now the sound could use just a tad more warmth. . . but that is recording dependent and overall I'm just swimming happily in great sound. Which makes life grand.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #13 - 03/12/17 at 22:33:48
 
I look forward to how the 75C1s sound to you Lon. They may just pull the current setup right in.

I have not seen or heard Arcturus OB3s. As to Sylvania making them, I was probably conveying the story I got from Brendan at tubeworld. At some point he told me he thought Sylvania made all the OB3s, the main differentiating thing being the wire construction just above the glass stem inside the base. Some have welded D wires on the center rising wire and the others don't. I think he thought the earlier, 40s construction, had the D.

I have noticed on all I have, regardless of label, they either have the D or don't, and the ones with the D, the center wire rising out of the glass stem is off-center. Without the D, the three wires rising out of the glass stem are evenly spaced. I think Brendan thought the latter were 50s.

When I tested some a long time ago, I thought they did sound different depending on this construction, the non-D wire ones, more warm and textured and with the D, more focussed. But then I have heard some with Ds that are warmer and more textured that others with Ds....They were made over a long time though, so bound to be variations within each construction. I think listening really carefully, the many pairs I have are all a little different, and some more than others.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/12/17 at 22:34:21 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #14 - 03/12/17 at 22:57:22
 
Interesting on the OB3s I think I have one of each type between the Arcturus and the Sylvania branded pairs.

The beauty of the Mk III as I've learned about it over the years is its flexibility. . . . In cahoots with the power regenerator (now the very flexible P10) I can tailor the sound so well that nearly any tube complement can work, obviously I'll like one more than others, but I can usually make any of the tube architecture work with a variant of another. This sort of flexibility is really hard to live without when you get used to it!

Right now sound is so good I don't want to mess with it. . . but know that before long (probably when these 75C1s arrive) I will. Wink
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/12/17 at 22:57:41 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #15 - 03/14/17 at 22:04:48
 
Well, I guess I was just so used to the OA2 sound that the OB2 after a few days just seemed a bit thin. . . . I put back in the OA2 and I'm happier with the meatiness and weight that has been restored.

Also putting them back in they are NOT the RCA OA2 that I thought but a pair of Amerex OA2. I didn't even remember buying these but I looked back and I bought them more than two years ago, must have stuck them in and forgotten all about it and didn't feel the need to roll that position til this year.

Will be interesting to see how the OC2 equivalents I purchased change the sound. . . .
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/14/17 at 22:29:14 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #16 - 03/25/17 at 20:55:46
 
Will, I received a pair of the 75C1s ordered from this link you posted:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/75C1-voltage-regulator-tube-0C2-NOS-NIB-/331179182864?ha....

Wow, I'm a few hours in only and I'm very impressed. A nice change of presentation, as you note warmth, but it doesn't mask detail much and preserves the dynamics i've been enjoying so much lately.

Thanks for the recommendation, this may be the ones that are "just right' like Goldilock's porridge!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #17 - 03/25/17 at 21:39:02
 
Glad to hear it Lon. I thought I had some OA2s, but if so, can't find them. But an OB2 being leaner and more open than an OC2 made me think an OA2 would take that further...the least power to the input tubes, and therefore the leanest presentation. So I worried the 75C1 might be too big/warm/dark for you. I am glad it is not!

Have fun with the new porridge! Smiley
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #18 - 03/25/17 at 21:53:07
 
It's interesting because OA2 tend to be more weighty and warm than OB2 and OC2 . . . doesn't it go the same was as the OA3, OB3, OC3 family? Anyway I now have Amperex OA2 and OB2 (the OB2 being leaner and "faster" sounding) that work well with my differing regulations tubes for the output tubes and the differing output tubes and this 75C1 seems to be just the right balance for the TAD KT66 that I've been using this week with RCA OA3s and RCA 5V4G (bottle type) rectifiers. (I haven't rolled my Amperex 7308s in a long time, just briefly to try the Chinese tubes that Steve was recommending which weren't a fit for me.

So I can leave this complement in for quite some time to come I think, and then when I swap output tubes I'll see how it does with the JJ 6CA7s and the Reflector coin-based tubes. My instincts tell me I can make that work well too.

Love the flexibility of the Torii Mk III--especially this second one with the bass control--via the different speaker and bias switches and the treble and bass controls and via different tube types and brands. . . it's like having a dozen different amps. That was maddening for me for a while but now I have a better grip on the processes and pieces and feel it is an amp I can work with in any room and with almost any other components. It's been a great experience living with this amp.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/25/17 at 21:59:21 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #19 - 03/26/17 at 02:45:00
 
I found those OA2's. They are old Hytrons. Here is what I hear from the MKIV, which I think has a little different input tube design to that of the MKIII, but with similar VR effects.

I get now what you are hearing I think. The OA2s are interesting with my current tubes also...friendly, similar tonally to the 75C1, a little warm and rich, but with a bit less pressure, and "density," bass and body...similar overall qualities, but lower key, less powerful.

I also heard more tonal difference between the 75C1/OC2 and the RCA OB2s I have...the OB2 enough bigger than the OA2 to thicken the bass, and push the harder mids more, but leaner, less powerful and big than the 75C1.

With this setup, the 75C1 is about perfect, with similar tonal balance as the OA2, but with more articulated edges, body, dynamics, and tones...evenly presented, it just sounds right...no unevenness and peakiness like the OB2s give me with this particular tube set, and not as low key as the OA2. But I have been using the 75C1 for a long time, so have tuned to it.

Whatever tube seems best in different settings, this little experiment supports your experience of the great flexibility of the Toriis, especially the MKIII with its bass pots. Both regulator ranges offer a lot of flexibility in how they effect the rest.

Who knows why, but they used the opposite letter-to-voltage progression with 3 Regulators and the 2s.

Though not matching the letters between types, the voltage numbers fit with both regulator types as the voltage relates to their effect on the sound. The OC2 (72v) leaves the inputs with the most power, and the OA3 (75v) the most powerful for the output tubes.

From Wikipedia:
Octal-based tubes, 5–40 mA current:[3]

0A3 – 75 volts
0B3 – 90 volts
0C3 – 105 volts (best regulation of these four)
0D3 – 150 volts

Miniature tubes, 5–30 mA current:

0A2 – 150 volts
0B2 – 108 volts (best regulation of these three)
0C2 – 72 volts
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/26/17 at 02:50:22 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #20 - 03/26/17 at 04:44:31
 
Thanks for that info Will.

Yes, these new tubes are really working well with my present tube complement and I ordered another pair for back up. I'm very happy to have discovered them and thank you again for mentioning them and providing that link.

Probably won't get to fire the Torii up til Monday now but will look forward to it, there was something really "right" about the sound today!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: Tube time
Reply #21 - 04/04/17 at 21:03:14
 
Appreciate you sharing Will,
I've also picked up some of those 75c1 and they are currently in play and look gorgeous next to my 6ca7-z's. I just got my amp back after upgrading my caps- beeswax type 2 and getting it rewired for 4-8 ohm.  Only have a few hrs in and burn in will take awhile but I'm happy with the sound out of the gate which is a fantastic sign.
I would be amiss not to say another seamless Decware transaction that was a pleasure as usual.

JD
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #22 - 04/05/17 at 05:06:38
 
The 75C1 is one tube I have come to love almost unconditionally. But even so, you never quite know how any tube will be in different setups. Really glad they work for you two!

JD, I think they look great too, though one member I recommended it to found it "ugly."

Those Copper Jupiters will sound even more amazing after a fair bit of burnin. But like you are finding, it is brilliant that they sound quite good new. Hard to say, taking time to fully develop, I sort of grew with them...but my sense is that the Coppers are so "right" in the MKIV, you barely hear them. Everything I want from a cap, they seem to do well... fast, clear, transparent, extended, very complex detail, excellent space and "black"...and pleasantly and subtly their warm and smooth aspects complete the "musical" feeling without these qualities being particularly noticeable. Very nice.

Interestingly, I put my burned in Jupiter HT Beeswax caps from my MKIV into my MKIII, and really like them there, authentic, open, and fresh feeling. Different system/room no doubt contributing, in the MKIV, they could be just a little tinselly (especially with some music), and even a slight touch of "synthetic," like they were doing all the right things from a sound/intellect perspective, but may not always feel exactly right....Nitpicking here, digging...They were actually really great in the MKIV too, but the Coppers made it more complete, showing refinements of subtle information right off that just got better, improving everything the cap does.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/05/17 at 16:01:26 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #23 - 07/08/17 at 15:35:12
 
I have had such a good experience with the Mullard for RCA ECC189 as input tubes in the Torii Mk III that I ordered two more pair of Mullard ECC189 . . . they were so affordable. Between these and the two pair of Amperex for RCA ECC189 that I have and a pair of Sylvania 7308 I have some great input tubes for my Torii and my two Taboo amplifiers and CSP2+ --  an embarrassment of affordable goodies.

In the Torii right now I'm running RCA OA3, Tesla 11TA31, RCA 5V4G (bottle type), Mullard for RCA ECC189 and JJ 6CA7 (cryo'd). Fantastic sound!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Bflat
Verified Member
**




Posts: 2
Re: Tube time
Reply #24 - 08/12/17 at 17:17:07
 
Tried a set of Pavane 6CA7-TII. Sound a little better than the JJ's but very noisy. Had them about six months and have given up as they are getting worse.

On Steve's advice I bought a pair of Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8. That made a significant improvement in the sound over the Russian 6N1P.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #25 - 08/16/17 at 20:11:15
 
A new pair of input tubes for the Torii Mk III have been in place for a week and I'm really liking the sound. This pair came from a set of five that I bought NOS NIB for nine dollars a piece including postage. They are Lorenz A-frame PCC189 made in Holland, and they have a charming sprightliness, and a very "wet" feel that comes without the darkness that often accompanies the spaciousness. I have the other three in my CSP2+ and they were breaking in but I put the ZBIT in place in-between the DirectStream DAC and the Torii and with the XLR cables I received from Randy in place I'm really enjoying this configuration.

Back to top
« Last Edit: 08/16/17 at 20:31:07 by Lon »  

1_f.jpg

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #26 - 08/19/17 at 18:44:23
 
Doing some further searching these may be Philips tubes labeled Lorenz (?) and not A frame (I'm unclear, I foolishly thought this was an A frame due to the shape, but I've seen a totally different type of frame listed as an A frame repeatedly) If not an A frame, not sure what it is. But. . . .these sound excellent with the Torii Mk III and with the CSP2+ and were very cheap. . . . Very happy with them. Ordered a few more (as well as a sleeve of Philips A frame PCC189 to try).
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/19/17 at 18:47:54 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1812
Re: Tube time
Reply #27 - 08/19/17 at 23:36:17
 
Hey Lon,

That is what I have always thought of as an A-frame getter, the A shape holding the getter. I have PCC88s, ECC88s, and PCC189s like this (and have seen E88CCs with A-frames).

These Lorenz do look Phillips made. You can see the Heerlen Holland symbol on your right pair, 2nd line of the date codes... a triangle with the right side and bottom forming a right angle, indicating Heerlen. For Mullard Blackburn they use a B beginning the 2nd line, and R for the Mullard Mitcham plant. Confusing things a little for me, Mullard (and others) did hook up with Philips pretty early, Philips tech and tubes getting mixed between companies and countries. But I think the date codes identify the specific plant and dates.

Looks like lots of the available PCC189s are these. I have some labelled Mullard that say made in Holland and have the Heerlen code. Also, I have some 60's PCC88 (labelled Philips) and 60's ECC88 (labelled Amperex), both Holland made, and looking like the same shape and construction. The sound is very similar between the three, and likely I don't have enough time on the PCC189s, but now the PCC88 and ECC88 are a little bigger/spacious/richer, with a little more developed space, fine detail and textures, especially the Amperex ECC88.

I agree though, the A-frame PCC189s sound really good...solid, nicely balanced, revealing, spacious, and pretty smooth. The distinctive quality I get from these is subtle, but solid describes it. Mine sound just a little rigid, but I suspect burnin. Even just playing them enough to warm through I have no doubt I could happily use them. But I have been doing so many mods on my amps and DAC over the last months, for consistency I have stuck mostly with my usual tubes as reference, so have not taken enough time to fully burn in some of the newer tubes.

For a long time now, these "usual" inputs are hallow getter IEC/Mullard labelled ECC88s...or CBS labelled 6DJ8 that are Siemens made ECC88s, having the same construction and fundamental character. Both are supposed to be late fifties/early 60s.

The IEC/Mullards say made in Great Britain, but like the CBS, they have the Siemens (Germany) date code symbol (like an = sign with a vertical slash down through the center). These are very nicely balanced tubes that are also very solid, but with amazing space.... revealing... rich in textures and harmonic information. The ambient information rising from empty space is exceptional. Off-label tubes, they can be found pretty inexpensive also, though not the bargain PCC189 and ECC189 currently are. I think I paid about 60 for a pair.

Based on your experience, and after trying a couple, I have been picking up some more 189s also as I find interesting pairs at good prices. Philips Miniwatt ECC189 with hallow getters and F on the date code (I think French/Radiotechnique) are closer to the Siemens ECC88, a bit "bigger" and more spacious than the PCC189 A-frames. Hallow getter Adzam labelled ECC189, with the Heerlen symbol, go a little further, a little clearer/bigger/more spacious variation on the theme. Right now they are much like the Siemens-made ECC88s, but not quite as complex (at least at this stage of burnin).

Then there are the RFT PCC189s with hallow getters. Again lacking full burnin, they are slightly subdued, but very nice tubes once warmed through. Opening up a bit more, they will be really good, nicely balanced, but likely more about texture and fine detail than the solidity of the A-frames. They are really good on timing too...slowing the sense of pace.

Similar in fine detail, but increasing it, Siemens PCC189 (with a copper wire getter riser to a hallow getter) are quite complete sounding, revealing amazing depth of information. Similar to earlier Siemens PCC88s (some labelled Telefunken, like Upscale's) with the same getter setup...fine detail excels. These tubes show that interesting timing thing also...sounding like they relax the pace, something I associate with excellent space between note delivery...quiet. My system/room is very refined in terms of allowing complete detail without much edge, and I like these tubes quite a lot. But of all the above tubes, these Siemens PCC189s are the most about detail in the balance. There is still some warmth, and bass is there, but like their sibling Siemens PCC88s, the detail of these tubes could be too much depending on system/room. Or they could open the lid on a duller system/room. Listening now to Tomasz Stanko "Dark Eyes" album, where high piano notes and high trumpet notes can tend to piercing, these notes sound very revealing and a little intense (as intended), but pretty smooth. Like I said though, I have been working for years to reveal excellent space and detail without pain.

So this is hair splitting with nice tubes, and based on my system and tastes, but I thank you Lon for trying these tubes and telling us about them. I chose carefully for good matches and scores, and for construction matching, but all of them fit well with my family preferences for the more textural and spacious ECC88 or PCC88s (over 6922/E88CCs more defined and "correct" sound tendency). Just some quick rolling around impressions, but I like them all and feel like I could easily fine-tune to any of them and be happy.

A factor in this for me, and I think for you Lon, has been progressive efforts for system/room balancing over a long time, with good parts/material/design balancing toward synergy that allows more music to sound great. This does not have to be dulling down the system, but can be just getting to the right balances in all areas so that the system is not particularly biased for specific music, instead being accepting of a relatively broad range of recordings.

Finally, after trying to balance and refine the system/room over and over again, I am finding things can come together in ways that bring out the best of about any tube, and without sacrifice to detail and space. The contrary in fact. My system is more revealing than ever of space and fine detail....well really, more revealing and natural sounding across the spectrum. I just am amazed at how it can keep getting better.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/20/17 at 00:30:39 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #28 - 08/20/17 at 00:14:35
 
It's always good when your own sonic impressions are reflected in large part in another's experience with the same and similar tubes! Yes, this type is plentiful AND cheap. The ECC189 as well are plentiful and cheap, I have Mullard and Amperex I have been using this summer that are really satisfying. The beauty of the Mk III for me is its flexibility. With different voltage regulation tubes and different rectifiers and power tubes I can get great sound from any of the input tubes on hand, and when using the CSP2+ in the signal chain I can get even more interesting combinations.

I'm probably going to have a few extra dollars to play with in a month or so due to an investment maturing and being cashed out for a home improvement and I thought for a hot minute about buying a ZMA. But to be honest I love the flexibility of the Torii Mk III, the voltage regulation, and the many tubes I've collected for the different positions. . . I'm just going to stick with these. I may target a ZTPRE . . . we'll see. I think that will be an are of possible improvement now that I have a ZBIT as well.

You're right, I think I've learned a LOT the last few years where I have been retired again (since my Mom's death and my Dad's assisted-living habitation my caregiving duties have ben seriously diminished) and I've gotten to know the room and equipment I have and I do indeed try to tailor the sound so that any music I toss in sounds great. That's not easy and is really the result of two decades of "training" and trial. But it's bearing fruit and I'm glad that I have the time now to enjoy the benefits of the set up and experimentation, and that it is something that I can keep experiencing and learning about.

This hobby is a "consuming" one. Time and money are eaten up. But for the right person, such as the forum denizens here, it can be a lifelong delight.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: Tube time
Reply #29 - 08/20/17 at 00:28:51
 
The variables in this hobby are many. Thanks for the heads up on these tubes, best of all they are cheap. Breaking in new caps in all 3 of my amps and new pair of speakers has been challenging but with the advice on this forum and understanding that the search bears worth while fruit allows the exploration to be a tenable process.

Enjoy the tunes guys

JD
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12606
Re: Tube time
Reply #30 - 08/20/17 at 01:06:04
 
Boy there are two things really challenging in this high end hobby: waiting time for a component to be built and shipped, and break in time. I believe in both, some don't believe in the latter. Smiley

JD: if you explore any of these tubes let us know what  you think!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print