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6L6G (Read 8043 times)
SonicSeeker
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6L6G
01/28/17 at 16:46:42
 
Has anyone used 6L6G tubes?
I was considering giving them a try in my TORII JR. on the advice of Steve.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #1 - 01/28/17 at 19:03:07
 
I've used the Russian coin based 6P3S-E, which I think is similar, (doesn't take advantage of the Hazan Grid mod though) in my ZMA and really like them.

Does Steve list the various tube/bias settings in the Torrii Jr manual?
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #2 - 01/28/17 at 20:33:30
 
Next to 807s the Tungsol 6L6G has been my favorite tube in my MKIV. I think it is quite a good tube, very solid construction, beautiful to look at, and great sound that reflects the solid construction...a characteristic Tungsol clarity and power in the signal.

I don't think the 807 is a better tube, but for me, being very sucked into micro detail texturing and edge feathering these days, it is more seductive at this point. For new production, the Tungsol 6L6G sound and feel indicates similar quality, but a different flavor. The following is a post I made about it comparing the 6L6G.

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1425088010/17#17

I just tried them again after listening to a record with 40's RCA 807s. In this setup, the 6L6G are more intense feeling...more signal density, but still with really good spaciousness....it is very quiet. They have bigger/deeper bass, more potent/solid/clear mids, emphasis feeling less oriented to high end information....less micro detail. But I would not say it is unbalanced in this way, just different. With exceptional dynamics, they just have more emphasis on a solid, powerful presentation, giving more body intensity to notes, a totally valid choice I would say, both tubes sounding pretty real to me.

And I have been tuning to the 807s, so I might be praising the Tungsol more if I ran them more and fine-tuned! Here, it is a really nice tube!

I would put the coin based 6P3S-E tonally closer to the 807s than the Tungsols. The 807s gentler than the Tungsols but still quite awake and dynamic, the 6P3 has a pleasant, but notably softer presentation than the 807...a little too soft for my tastes with this current setup, especially in the bass, but throughout.

Being less dynamic/powerful feeling, the 6P3 comes off as warmer, though having similar tonal qualities to the 807. There is how those tonal qualities come out though, effected by space and dynamics. Here, though the micro information is good, the 807 does it better and more completely. The 6P3, having notably less tonal density and dynamic power than the 807, combined with the 807's excellent quiet spaciousness, the 6P3 has less definition. In comparison, this softness effects every aspect of the tonal presentation, making all the information from the 807 more precise and present. And the 807 has less macro dynamics than the Tungsol powerhouse, so I would not say the Tungsol and 6P3 are all that similar, though all three have a family resemblance. I have really enjoyed the 6P3 before, once tuned to it, but personally, I think these 807s and the Tungsols are better tubes overall in my system/room.

And after re-listening, I could go with either the 807 or Tungsol, both doing their own thing very nicely. The 807 went back in, but I used the Tungsols for a really long time, longer than any power tube I can recall, so putting the 807 back in may be in part that there is more for me to learn from using the 807.

Since Steve tests the tubes carefully, trying hard to get rid of the ones that will fail before shipping, and warranties them, it might be worth a little more to buy the 6L6G from Decware. I bought my first quad from cryoset, and one tube failed. Then bought another quad from a cheap eBay seller with good reviews, liking the sound so much, I thought I would like spares. And one started to fail, as is usual here (when it happens), somewhere between 100-200 hours distortion setting in...so now have a combo of a cryo pair and non-cryo, and spares.

I have bought a lot of tubes from cryoset over the years, and finally, had a number of single power tubes of a quad fail both in my MKIII and MKIV. Ron always comes through, but with resistance, in his opinion, the amp/biasing always being the problem.

Steve on the other hand says his auto-bias settings are easy on tubes, and that tube failure with new power tubes is a given problem...thus his testing and extra cost....more tubes tossed out!

Ron apparently takes great care to get and test extra good tubes in his own way, and to do the extra burnin himself and retesting after cryo (if I recall correctly). I think Ron attributes tube failure being to self biasing amps that claim to work well with a lot of different power tubes, like Decware...not being necessarily "in spec" for the specific tube. I sometimes wonder if his cryo method is hard on tubes that have somewhat suspect connections. I just got tired of there being the same loaded conversation when only one of a quad failed....not his tube's fault... though still setting things right. The last time, I just didn't want to deal with that, so never reported the failed Tungsol and stopped buying there.

I like cryo treatment sound, and I think I recall the Torii Junior must be biased to adjust to new tubes??? If Ron has it right, his quality control should not be an issue for you. And if one does fail, Ron did always work with me to get things right. But personally, if I buy another quad, I think will try Decware after talking with Steve about this.

Just a tale of a tube freak...hope this helps.
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« Last Edit: 01/28/17 at 21:28:47 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #3 - 01/28/17 at 22:13:51
 
Thanks Will.
I am wondering what difference I would hear switching from my EL34B's.
I find with my current set-up I would definitely like a stronger bass presence, and some more texture "meat" to the mid-range. Would also like a deeper tone to vocals. I am close but feel it is lacking in these areas.  I don't want to sacrifice detail though.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #4 - 01/28/17 at 22:15:23
 
Is the 807 what we see shown on the website picture of the Rachael
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #5 - 01/28/17 at 22:32:56
 
Yes the tube with the adaptor on the one Rachel photo is an 807.

Not just that I am impressed with the Tungsol 6L6G, but based on what sound changes you would like, I see why Steve recommended it.

It has been a while since I used EL34s, so am reticent to compare from memory. I assume you are talking about the Tungsol EL34 B. I have some of those burned in, as well as other EL34s. Let me know which EL34 you are using, and later this afternoon, if I have the tube you are using, I can compare the two.

By: "some more texture "meat" to the mid-range." I am thinking you meant more texture and meat....is this correct?

I think I get what you are after, but the more you can tell me about what it is you would like different, the more accurately I can comment on tube differences with your preferences in mind.
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« Last Edit: 01/28/17 at 22:47:19 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #6 - 01/29/17 at 06:12:28
 
I am using the stock Tungsol EL34B's.
Yes was told to try the Tungsol 6Y6G's.
Yes more texture and more meat.
It feels dry and the bass and lower mids feel like they need to be amped up and filled in a bit to add the lower tone needed.
Sorry to get back to you so late, took the family shopping and out to dinner in Glenwood springs.
Thanks for the help Will,l I look forward to your findings.
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« Last Edit: 01/29/17 at 06:15:43 by SonicSeeker »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #7 - 01/29/17 at 07:04:23
 
Glenwood...I remember those springs years ago, meeting up with family there. I will try to get back tomorrow with some thoughts or ideas.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #8 - 01/29/17 at 14:55:50
 
I live between Glenwood Springs and Vail.
We usually head that way when we want a night out.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #9 - 01/29/17 at 16:54:18
 
Great thread on two tubes that I am very interested in trying in our Rachael. I have two EL34 to 807 adapters coming in the next few weeks and need to get a set on 807's and 6L6's on order. I will start calling Vintage Tube services tomorrow, I hear it may take a few try's to get through. Thanks for the info, please keep it coming. Happy listening, Chris.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #10 - 01/29/17 at 17:03:10
 
Beautiful area Seeker!

Though the MKIV is a different amp, and we have different system/rooms, hopefully the tube character comparison will convey well enough...I think it definitely can as long as I can explain the general tube characteristic differences well, but remember allowance for system variations.

I am listening to the Tungsol EL34B, and though it is extremely good at fine detail and lucidity upper mids to highs, in my setup, based on what you are after, I think the rest can improve.

There will likely be a slight sense of sacrifice in fine and inner detail changing from the hazen mod/EL34 sound. Working together in creating the detail and space part of the balance lends a particular quality, but it is all balance. And I never notice it except when I put EL34s back in to test.

Though impressive, overall, the Hazen Grid with the general signature of the EL34, in one sense increases detail, but the exceptional upper-mid to high detail causes the thickness and relative lack of definition lower down to be more noticeable. This is a lot the EL34 sound itself, a balance I have always struggled with to get "right" here. I suspect this lack of balance between articulate top and a softish, less defined low down quality, is contributing to your sense of cool/lean and wanting more sense of bass power and "meat."

As you know, everything you do with these amps (and I suspect your speakers too!) can be heard, from the power cord to speakers. And all contribute to various degrees to the areas you want refinement. To try to meet all your preferred qualities most efficiently, I am wondering if you can tell me more.

What are the rest of your tubes?

What power cord on the Torii, including gauge if you know it?

What ICs are you using?

What speaker cables?
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« Last Edit: 01/29/17 at 17:12:32 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #11 - 01/29/17 at 17:26:42
 
I will dig in and let you know Chris. 807s are quite variable in price, sometimes pretty high, and a lot of times inexpensive. The ones I have in I matched two pairs basically by construction and test scores, and though different construction front and back, they are great sounding with Sylvanias in front and RCAs in back! I got a big batch of mixed 807s off eBay. If you can't find what you want inexpensively, I might be able to pick you a nice pair.
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« Last Edit: 01/29/17 at 17:58:04 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #12 - 01/29/17 at 19:49:41
 
6DJ8 ECC88 Amperex white label
USAF 596
stock oa3's and EL34b's
8 gauge Silver in Teflon speaker cables
Silver IC's
RAC Burly power cord
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #13 - 01/29/17 at 20:53:05
 
I don't know the 596. Can you describe the sound compared to the Stock tube you got...was it a 274B.

The Amperex ECC88s are good for texture and spaciousness, but don't go as low as E88CC. I use ECC88 or PCC88 most of the time, for the gentler presentation, texture and spaciousness. E88CC tubes are generally too rigid and solid for me. American Amperex 7308s are a lower key 6922 type, with more texture than most, but they roll off the highs a little and miss some very fine detail, so questionable based on your detail preferences. So I think you are likely on a good track looking at power tubes. Your Tungsol power tubes are more like 6922s being extended, but more rigid and powerful...not very textured.

It sounds like you have plenty of power delivery all around for bass depth. You can get more accuracy and articulation (less slurring) with speaker cables that are not single wire, but I think Decware types are quite good for single wire. Have you ever tried twisting them a little, say every foot give or take several inches? Different twists sound different. Could be an interesting experiment one day.

Along these lines, I doubt this is the case the way you described your sound, and with your ultra linear transformers and open baffles....but if there is too much low bass (10-75 Hz or so), or it is slurred, it can muddle/mask the important mid-bass to mid areas that give bass body and bite...Not the case there?
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« Last Edit: 01/29/17 at 20:56:39 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #14 - 01/29/17 at 21:07:07
 
No my bass is very tight all the way through.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #15 - 01/29/17 at 21:59:07
 
Good. I figured your bass would be really good. The reason I asked about 596 is that I am personally interested, but also that there are some 5U4Gs, STs, and GBs that are quite good at micro detail and textures. Particularly, some GBs can be quite textured and go quite deep.

I am going through a bunch of different power tubes little by little and am encouraged that we can get where you are headed.
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« Last Edit: 01/29/17 at 21:59:33 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #16 - 01/29/17 at 22:21:06
 
I tried a few also and this one seemed to me to be fuller tighter and more detailed.
5AR4 NOS RCA
JAN 5U4G
274B
and a few others I don't remember
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #17 - 01/31/17 at 20:01:34
 
Seeker. Jeez...I just reread your notes and saw 8# silver! Out of habit, I auto-thought of silver on copper like Decware! I would really like to hear your cables....never heard big silver.

Lost in power tube exploration, I have a few observations and questions.

It is tricky to get all the things you want all together. The Tungsol 6L6G would do a lot....more linear, the more present bass shifting the balance deeper than the EL34B. Along with more sense of weight and power in the signal, warmer body comes out, changing the sense of space, but without losing really good spaciousness. At the same time, compared to the EL34B, though revealing of fine detail, the 6L6G is less weighted toward detail in the balance, as well as a little less detailed.

I don't hear this as a sacrifice here except by comparison and I am among the those who find complex detail critical to getting a natural sound.

But how detail is presented effects texture, and neither of these Tungsol tubes are particularly about texture to me. The 6L6G texture is good, but like the EL34B, its detail is complex, but more integrated than textured.

Still exploring, there are a number of tubes that could fit what you want, but the Psvane 5881, being quite characterful, is a possibility that presents a few questions.

This tube is one-of-a-kind in my experience. It is sort of like blending exceptional detail and warmth traits of a short base RTF EL34 with more linearity, depth and dynamics of the Tungsol 6L6G. It is more linear and deeper than your EL34Bs, with exceptional/greater detail complexity, creating notable texture. The question comes up, especially the detail, being exceptional (maybe too much depending) within a warmer/bigger balance than the EL34B....how would you feel about an increased sense of complex detail...in this case, with exceptional texture also?

The RFT is euphonic and warm, and the Psvane is also, though more subtly. The greater linearity and dynamics of the 5881 contributes to a heightened sense of space...but its spaciousness is more atmospheric than the both Tungsol's. Altogether, it has an indescribable sort of euphonic thing that would help solve "dry," but I would not call it strictly transparent/neutral either.  

How do these things sound to you?

Then there are several more neutral variations on the more linear/deeper than EL34B theme...807s, KT66, and KT77s could work depending on your preferences for ideal changes.

Still comparing, but this might refine the search.

EDIT: Another question. Less powerful, some of these tubes need to be turned up more for the same volume. Are you getting close to maxing out your volume pot on the Torii?
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« Last Edit: 01/31/17 at 21:19:20 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #18 - 01/31/17 at 21:10:07
 
To chime in I concur that the PSVANE 5881 being a fantastic power tube.  You might want to also try something I have recently been experimenting with, some SHUGUANG 6CA7-Z GF select( I only order my PSVANE/SHUGUANG tubes from Grant Fidelity. The tube has handpainted Chinese characters on it and they are really chubby. They are freaking fantastic...although the first 20 minutes or so can be bizarre with what comes out of the speakers. They are crisp, airy, spacious, texture galore and are the first power tubes in my application where when I have the TORII III full boar it sounds crystal clear. They allowed me to extend my speakers even further and enjoy a wider even more realistic soundstage. It's made me revisit a lot of Leo Kottke and Mark Knopfler, they sound so delicious. I know it's a winner because the last few people who have come by have immediately asked me why it sound livelier, more real etc.
I'm really excited, life and work has been really challenging and to have this music to  escape, rejuvenate etc. to is wonderful.

JD
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #19 - 01/31/17 at 23:51:34
 
Nice to hear JD. Those look like pretty tubes! I wonder how long do you think they took to burn in? Also, can you compare the bass and body of the 6CA7-Z GF to the Psvane 5881 or to the RFT EL34?

Also, there were complaints about quality with those tubes for some time. What is the word there these days?
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« Last Edit: 01/31/17 at 23:55:40 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #20 - 02/01/17 at 14:25:39
 
Yeah I held off on buying in the past because of the quality issues. The GF select have been burned in for 50 hrs and the hand painting is supposed to show the extra care and quality control..so far so good.
I've put about 75 hrs in the last couple of weeks and I think they are still burning in. They have moments where the music will sound brittle but those moments are happening less and less often.
I prefered the overall sound of the 5881's over the RFT with both the short and long bases. The RFT had a beautiful midrange but could get loose on the highs and lows. I liked everything about the 5881's except the fact that I felt like they weren't blossoming, almost sterile at times.  I also am not sure if I completely broke them in, might be related to the hazen grid mode?
The 6ca7-z remind me of the psvane 6ca7-t but with a tighter more realistic body and immense detail without sounding artificial. The 6ca7-t are a fantastic tube but I sometimes felt the sound was too wide, large and out of control.
These 6ca7-z really increase the depth and detail of instruments without sacrificing any mid-range love.  About the bass, I was listening to some Wagner and the bass was deep, full and made me jump a couple times.

JD
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #21 - 02/01/17 at 19:51:35
 
And more choices   :-/
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« Last Edit: 02/01/17 at 19:52:28 by SonicSeeker »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #22 - 02/02/17 at 00:26:26
 
Yes the Treasures sound quite interesting!

JD...System/room and all....but from your description, my guess is that you can get more out of the Psvane 5881. At least here, they are very detailed and textured, possibly contributing the occasional sense of "sterile" you mention. But fully burned in, here, they are not lacking in bloom....rather being rich, warm and euphonic, integrating the complex detail and texture quite well for the most part...For my personal tastes, I tend to like a little more “invisibility,” less color, but every time I put these tubes in I am seduced by their tastefully portrayed, unusually rich and atmospheric qualities. Mine have plenty of hours on them though...at least 400-500. Could be our setups though!

I thought of this tube considering Sonicseeker's more linear amp than ours, and open baffles, both likely causing a more linear sound, likely leaner with less bass than the big Torii design creates. And comparing tube to tube, these could possibly fit Seeker's particular wishlist.

My MKIV is pretty seriously refined from original from the power supply/signal path work I have done to it and the CSP3, making them tonally richer, and more linear and revealing...and this in the already revealing setup I had. But it still has that MKIV bigness (excess bass to me if unadjusted with room and EQ in my case) and I suspect the ultra linear Jr is a bit leaner/less bassy still, especially with open baffles.

Another thing I consider in looking at tubes, I have done no tuning as I test these tubes in order to get real comparisons. Only volume matching with the Torii volume, my most transparent way to adjust to hear different tubes as accurately as I can. But practically speaking, in real use, between gain riding with the CSP3, CSP and Torii adjustments (including tubes), and EQ, I could solve issues with any of these tubes. I would still like only one or two of them most though!

My tubes now are:

Torii MKIV: Philips/Mazda GZ34, cryo’d Sylvania OB3s, Euro 75C1s (OC2 equivalent), and IEC/Mullard labelled ECC88 that look and sound just like late 50s/early 60s Siemens ECC88s, and RCA and Sylvania 807s.

CSP3: Philips/Mullard GZ32, 60s Mullard E88CC with parasol getters, and for input, a 60s Mullard A frame ECC88.

This creates an extended, open, fast, textured, revealing sound here cradled in pleasant but not intense warmth. Revealing and linear top to bottom with everything feeling real is critical to me.

With Sonicseeker's wish to shift the balance lower from the Tungsol EL34B....more bass, body, wetness, and texture, and without losing detail...in my room, the 5881 definitely shifts things to more linear, creating greater bass presence while being warmer, wetter, with more body ("meat"), and with amazing texture and detail.

The question becomes, does its particular balance appeal? The 5881s exceptional sense of detail and texture, within a warm/deep foundation, in a system that is very revealing and needing low end enhancement….depending on everything else, it could be too much, or just awesome. Being slightly over-colored by my tastes and room….like I said, they still get me. All that deep/warm/sweet sound, lucid enough to cause no soundstage degradation...its strange intensity...tasteful euphonic qualities in a great ambient stage...to me it can be quite magical.

They push limits, making them a tricky tube, but when we get right down to it...what makes the perfect power tube depends on everything else, especially with folks like us who have quite demanding tastes in how our systems come together. So we research the sound, pick ones that appeal to where we think we want things to go, and end up with a good selection to play with!!! Wink The making of a tube head!

The Tungsol 6L6G fits the wish-list in most ways, balancing deeper, warmer, more linear and dynamic than the EL34B with more body and bass presence. I really like the tasteful "big tube" sound of it...linear, tonal density, and clear ambient spaciousness with very nice detail balance. But here it does not increase texture much...a little, but similar to the EL34B...and it reduces high end detail just a little. Regardless, it is nicely balanced here.

Then some KT66s are similar in balance and character to the 6L6G, but go further...warmer/thicker in general...relatively "big tube," sounding still, powerful feeling, and clear. But based on the wish-list, and the EL34B being close, I am thinking these are not quite right, possibly a little big/bold, and some of them, darker/slower in parts of the balance.

JJ KT77s may be right, similar mids and highs of the EL34B, but more dynamic, more body, and notably more bass presence that is tight and big. They are quite exceptional at solid bass here, with pleasant warmth and good body. With more texture than the EL34B, they have excellent spaciousness and ambient sweetness, exceptional subtle and inner detail...I did notice a little upper-mid sizzle on just a few tunes that concerns me some.

That said, they reveal horns in a natural way similar to better EL34s. They have really good tonal density, but with complexity feathering body and edges, solving hard/focussed type of density for the most part. I tried a quad mixing an old pair of Genalex KT77 together with JJs in front, the Genalex were my preferred tube in my SE34. Though the Genalex were more open and articulate, the JJs, with quite good fine detail, seem more forgiving and warm. Still with plenty of detailed spaciousness, in this case a good thing. It made me wish I had a quad of Genalex to check out though.

Oddly, it may well be more what I am used to, but every time I put in the JJs, I am sucked in and impressed with their musical power, the bass and inner detail being especially amazing...but somehow I want something more from them without knowing what...Probably just preferences, habit and system/room, but perhaps also indicating things felt in perception, but not yet known. Can't say without using them more, but a compelling tube!

JJ 6CA7s, also tighter bass and more linear sense of balance than EL34Bs, with their sort of warm but open “big tubey” sound, and without losing the hazen mod...pretty great potential too. But again, at the moment I have more preferred flavors. Though I used this tube a lot for a long time, it is not pulling me in totally just now, with this setup. If the balance of the Chinese 6CA7s are similar or better, and with JDs report of excellent resolution and texture, seems the Treasure could suck me in....keeping the EL34 vibe but with more bass, body, resolution and texture.

I asked about the bass JD, wondering how they might fit in Sonic Seeker's wishlist. The Treasures sound quite tempting, and relatively inexpensive compared to earlier prices, especially now that Genalex KT66 and KT77, and Tungsol 6L6Gs have gotten more expensive.

I recall the early Treasures taking 300+ hours according to pretty reliable sources. This is believable to me, my Genalex KT66, sounding good after 100-150, but having taken something like 250-300 to fully come out.

Please keep us informed!

For me, 807s have the most natural sound of the tubes I have...quite linear, shifting the balance downward with more dynamic speed and body than EL34s, and with complex detail in space that is very good! They have more complex detail and nuanced textures than either Tungsol. This is not to say the Tungsols don't have the information. I think they have ver good detail, they just express it in a more consolidated, integrated way.

Here, I guess I could say the 807 detail quality and complexity is quite complete in a more textured way, though not in the face. Though less obvious than the 6L6G, they have excellent natural feeling dynamics. Being more complex throughout, with impressive micro dynamics and micro detail, they give a great sense of resolution and space...more fine particles resolving tonal density in a subtly textured and fast way...

The Tungsol 6L6G is in a similar neighborhood overall, but the 807's complexity, combined with less macro dynamics, its body is less concentrated. I guess it sounds like a blend of an EL34 and 6L6G or KT66...more linear, dynamic and deep than an EL34, and with a bit less macro dynamics than the 6L6G. The way detail complexity softens edges  is more similar to good EL34s and to the Psvane 5881 here.

Here I find 807s relatively “invisible” overall, but impressive enough to be compelling. But I am "conditioned to them," having been "my new love" for 9-10 months now, a long time for a power tube here!

I could go on, but I am even confusing myself!!! Wink
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« Last Edit: 02/02/17 at 00:47:43 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #23 - 02/02/17 at 17:04:49
 
Will
Thank you for the detailed presentation.
Would you mind giving me in your opinion which tubes you would suggest in the order of first to last so there is no confusion.
Scott
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #24 - 02/02/17 at 21:30:26
 
Will,

I definitely need to let the 5881's season a while longer to fully appreciate them, just so hard with my sound right now. Very similar to what you said some tube compliments just suck you in. I've never heard 807's but might have to pick up a quad.  
It is important to point out that my set up is completely stock the Torii III, ZP3, and CSP2+. I've been tempted to upgrade the caps but I tend not to be an upgrade type of guy.
My tube compliment.

TORII III: Shuguang 6ca7-z GF select, Raytheon oc2 (1964), Mullard GZ34 (1962), RCA oa3 (1956). Phillips Miniwatt SQ 7308 (1959)

ZP3: Mazda Radiotechnique 12ax7(1956), Cifte 12au7 (1958), Mullard GZ34 (1960), RCA oa3 (1961)

CSP2+: Amperex 7308 USN-CEP, Siemens 7308 (1959), Mullard GZ34 (1962)

I also have a pair of Ediswan 6922 running my Magnum Dynalab tube tuner.
Always like to hear about what people are doing with tubes, systems, acoustics ets... Happy Listening Will.
JD
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #25 - 02/04/17 at 23:22:37
 
Scott,

Sorry, I have been off the net for a few days.

It is a little tricky to guess what would fit best in your system/room. Also, my memory is pretty good, but I have to let each tube warm through before listening, so this is not a perfect testing system!@#$%^ Along with that, there is virtually no chance of any tube being just the same in two system/rooms considering the variable influences of components, power, vibration, cables, other tubes AND frequency adjustments from room. Each tube has characteristic qualities, but everything else works on, and with, those.

As an example, thinking I was done comparing tubes I put in a new used computer. The more powerful processor, along with the latest Mac OS, changes how the player software I use, Audirvana, sounds. Same software version! Listening again to these same tubes, they are a little different.

This is why I compare tube qualities rather than recommending a tube, the differences between different tube characteristics hopefully helping others refine choices based upon what they want to change in their system/room sound.

I tried more tubes than I touched on above, selecting ones I thought might best fit your wishlist, but these all offer variations on the wishlist. So I think any of these could work, but have little doubt there would be others that could work as well or better. Also, given a chance to hear them all, you would very likely end up liking one or two of them best and it may not be the ones I think might be best based on hearing them in this room, with my interpretation of your wishlist.

Backed into a corner, I would first say, I like the Tungsol EL34 least of all these. But since how much an amp pushes speakers makes a difference in body and bass, and I don't know the tolerance of you power versus speakers/room, I might stay with the higher power ones. To various degrees, the KT66 and 6L6 types are quieter tubes. Whereas, I think KT77 and most 6CA7s are more-or-less direct EL34 replacements.

Within that, considering all criteria you mention, I would call the tubedepot, tubestore, or some other bigtime seller, and see if the JJ KT77 is considered reliable these days. It is a powerful, dynamic and clear tube, and for $80 a quad, not much risk. So I might tentatively recommend trying it!@#$%^& The more I listen to them here, the more I like them, but check back in a day or two...When we get this refined, it all matters and I may end up finding them "too good" with some time!

We might get closer to the best choices with a talk. If you PM your number and some good time options, I can call.
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« Last Edit: 02/05/17 at 17:12:45 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #26 - 02/05/17 at 01:10:47
 
JD said: Quote:
I definitely need to let the 5881's season a while longer to fully appreciate them, just so hard with my sound right now. Very similar to what you said some tube compliments just suck you in.


JD,

I get it. The 6CA7-Zs sound really interesting...Doing these listening tests, the JJ 6CA7 reminded me how much I liked that tube compared to EL34s, making your love of the Treasures doubly compelling. But overall, I am pretty content too, liking my mixed quad of 807s so much in this setup, I have had little desire to change them. I seem to finally be getting to where most tubes just stay in a long time! "Standards” seem to be developing.

That said, wondering if the JJ KT77s might be a good solution for Scott, I think I will keep them in a while and see how they "get under my skin." My system is already very revealing and fast, so they may be a little intense for me, but really have a nice, musical balance here.

Thinking about how system/room creates the setting for what works, my sound has been fundamentally similar for years...refining, but remaining in a very similar thread. It continues to get notably more authentic and involving...and flexible...but given another room, and having clearly defined preferences, I bet there would be variations on the parts to get there.

I also get not modding, but I just couldn't help it!

In retrospect, I have explored a lot, ending up so far with: a really nice variety of vibration resolution tools, a number of them DIY or modded, and placed specifically for synergy; many AC power filtering devices, placed and used for sound refinement; a nice variety of excellent power cables, the few made by others modded, and several fully DIY and designed to fill specific sound needs to optimize components; much refinement of my computer/DAC setup, including a surprisingly great first try DIY USB cable; DIY speaker cables designed and adjusted utilizing and combining the best theory and materials I could come up with toward bringing out qualities and balance beyond good cables I have tried; a pretty big variety of room treatments that clear up issues allowing the best of the exceptional qualities my room was inadvertently built with; years of fine-tuning speakers....Having solved any weak links as well as I can, it is all about refinement, but you know how that can feel! The better things get, the more refinements work!

Over the last several months I decided to dig deeper. After years of playing with DIY super pure, low dialectric silver ICs and KLE RCA ends, now I am on to silver/gold wires, and various ground wire types and sizes, and with different wire lengths and geometries. Very informative, with great results!

Then the amps! One change at a time (so I can read changes with relative accuracy), and still in process, I feel like I am getting close. Mainly, so far I am refining with coupling caps (more similar to upgrading from decent to really good signal cables), and power supply inputs, power caps and power cap bypasses (more similar to serious component upgrades). It is sort of amazing to me what the latter is doing! No doubt, in Steve's amps, the power supply can have as much or more effect on the "signal path," as things directly in the signal path.

I guess the point from this story is my usual...It all matters, everything effecting everything else. And the reality is that “tuning” is inevitable if we want the best from our system/room. Equally, how things best come together with different components and rooms will be different!

Though great designers are always trying for this and that “standard,” is anything truly neutral, transparent, revealing, musical, or whatever??? Just too many variables in a complex system/room for that to be true. So we mix and match to get the best we can in our own rooms, in ways that make us happiest. Smiley
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« Last Edit: 02/05/17 at 02:10:22 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #27 - 02/05/17 at 15:22:10
 
Will, Sonic and JD-  Great thread on some tubes I am very interested in. I received my 807 adaptors last week and should be seeing some 6L6's and various 807's coming in during the next couple of weeks. I will post my observations on these as my process starts, but my goodness you guys are rolling at a level I can never approach!! Keep the info coming. Happy listening, Chris.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #28 - 02/05/17 at 18:34:36
 
Look forward to your findings Chris.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #29 - 02/12/17 at 16:07:03
 
Well my first set of 807's will land at my work Monday and the other NOS 807's and 6L6GC should be right behind them. I installed a set of JJ KT77's last weekend in our Rachael and after about 50 hours they are sounding very nice. Good detail in the mids and top end and nice tight mid bass. Listened to some Lorenna McKinnett vinyl last night and really enjoyed all the texture and tone. Got lost in the magic of her music, which is what I want out of these glowing toys. Happy listening, Chris.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #30 - 02/12/17 at 17:20:31
 
Nice Chris! I am still running the JJ KT77, wanting to let them soak in. I have had many transporting listening sessions with them. They will continue to richen for a while, so better to come!

I am still a little on the fence about their vivid, dynamic power, but this is really nitpicking (and my system and room are tuned to pull dynamic speed and detail complexity), but I am getting along well enough to not need to change... Also, these traits contribute to the texture, altogether contributing to the compelling traits of the tube. I really do like how linear it is compared to EL34s I have, and within that, the complex detail, inner detail, and bass presence seem pretty exceptional...
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« Last Edit: 02/12/17 at 17:24:49 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #31 - 02/20/17 at 00:02:02
 
So I have been listening to the JJ KT77s happily a couple weeks. Now burning in a new DAC which can get a little hot at times, and trying some Dueland Cast resistors (forceful in their way compared to Duelund Standards) I decided to go back to my familiar 807s, craving a mellower sound. It was an interesting shift, most of the difference being just that...the KT77s are louder, bigger and more dynamic, punching up, and therefore clarifying everything more, including space....A very good tool if that is what a system/room needs.

For calming it down from that a bit, the 807s are very nice. Also the 807s have that NOS thing...a sophistication most new tubes rarely have. Subtle perhaps, but interesting. The 807s convey everything more subtly and with more subtleties...more refined. I really like them...very smooth without detail loss, very nicely dynamic without being in your face, beautiful resolution and spaciousness, a little warm, and quite pleasantly linear.

The KT77s are like pushing more power through the 807s, also with good textures, detail, amazing space, nicely linear, and great punch.

Both nice tubes for the right setting, but glad to have the 807s back in for my system as it is today, my tastes and space. Less forceful, and very resolving and musical.
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« Last Edit: 02/20/17 at 00:14:50 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #32 - 04/29/17 at 16:53:32
 
I finally got around to spending the money on some new 6L6G tubes for my TORII Jr.
I have about 10 hours on them so far.
Will, you described them quite well, thank you.
First thing to note I may have had a bad quad of EL34B'S to start with, let me explain.
I have always had a loud hum from the TORII Jr. very noticeable from anywhere in the room.
This has always bothered me and I had commented on this before here and with Steve.
So first thing I noticed with the new tubes was this is now gone, unexpected bonus and I am so very happy it is.
The sound now is much more detailed in the midrange without sacrificing high end information.
The bass is tight and full.
The amp is much more musical now and better balanced.
I also hear more information now, this tube is more open, clear and full.
For instance I was listening to Jackson Brown running on empty and there is a song where at the end they are talking about a clear mind and it was recessed before but now the voices were in my room and very clear.
Overall I like this tube much better than the EL34B's in my amp and in my system.
I am much closer to where I want to be now with this tube and it will be easier to tune from here.
I was considering the 807's and maybe down the road I will but for now this is much much better.
Will, from reading your comments it sounds like we have a similar idea on what sound we prefer, thank you so much for your help and I will gladly except any other advice.
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« Last Edit: 04/29/17 at 22:38:19 by SonicSeeker »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #33 - 04/29/17 at 16:59:45
 
Awesome that the hum issue is gone and that the output tubes are sounding so good! It amazes me how different the types of output tubes, and all tubes, sound in these amps. So versatile! That's a pain in some ways, but options are always good in the long run. And focused, experienced help like that Will dishes out is invaluable.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #34 - 04/29/17 at 18:12:35
 
Lon

Yes it does complicate things but it also gives us what we desire most which is a system we can set up on our own terms, a system to which we tune to our hearing, room and musical tastes.
What I have found on my journey is rigid systems I couldn't change, other than with large scale items such as speakers, that I have bought from reading other peoples idea of what was the best sounding gear.
With this set up the starting point is excellent and I still have the ability to make so many tuning choices to fit my needs.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #35 - 04/29/17 at 18:19:36
 
Amen! Smiley
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #36 - 04/29/17 at 18:56:39
 
Yes...the flexibility of many tuning choices from within an excellent foundation is sort of priceless to me! Especially with well implemented tubes being natural and alive by nature, it makes it possible to reach unimagined levels of musical presentation. No matter how good it gets here, so far, more potential for refinement continues to present...lots of fun for me. Glad the 6L6G is good there Seeker! Nice tube.
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« Last Edit: 04/29/17 at 19:06:39 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #37 - 04/29/17 at 22:20:05
 
I recall getting a quad of JJ EL34B's that hummed like hell. This is when I had a Jolida 202.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #38 - 04/29/17 at 23:15:44
 
So for clarification, are the Tung Sol 6L6G tubes being discussed the large bottle version or the shorter, stubby ones?  Thanks.

HK
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« Last Edit: 04/29/17 at 23:16:34 by HockessinKid »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #39 - 04/29/17 at 23:50:35
 
The large bottle version, 6L6G's.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #40 - 04/29/17 at 23:54:46
 
I'm running a quad of the Tung Sol 6l6G short bottle.
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #41 - 04/30/17 at 01:09:00
 
Tube names these days! Wink

Isn't the short bottle a 6L6GC? And the tall, coke bottle shape 6L6G?
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« Last Edit: 04/30/17 at 01:09:26 by will »  

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Re: 6L6G
Reply #42 - 04/30/17 at 14:43:33
 
Hey Will:

From The Tube Store

"This reissue Tung-Sol 6L6G tube is rated to 6L6GC specs for improved performance and reliability in modern tube amplifiers."
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Re: 6L6G
Reply #43 - 04/30/17 at 15:59:03
 
True enough, but still different tubes that very likely sound differently. If I am talking about what Tungsol calls a 6L6G, and someone buys what Tungsol calls a 6L6GC, thinking it is was I was talking about, attempts at clear communication have fallen short.
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« Last Edit: 04/30/17 at 16:00:28 by will »  

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