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Latest OB baffle build (Read 10330 times)
Palomino
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Latest OB baffle build
01/15/17 at 14:34:55
 
Well, Raven and I had a pretty productive day yesterday.  Sort of a day long CDApS meeting.

We started out with a brief listening session.  His new sub is tight in tone and shakes the floor.  Very nicely crafted as well.

The we went to Menards and picked up some 3/4" MDF.  With two people we didn't have to have them cut and they just barely fit into the back of my van as whole sheets.

We came back to his place and cut my sheet down to do my version of the "Donnie baffles" modeled after baffles designed by speaker builder extraordinaire - Donnie.

Basically, we wanted to double up the 3/4" MDF and offset the full range driver.

We did rough cuts with a skill saw and straight edge and then took them over to Raven's table saw.

At my house, if you are within 1/8" you have a beer and call it done.  With Raven, his equipment allows you to be within 1/64th.  We trimmed those sheets down and then glued them together and clamped them.

While the glue was setting, we went back into the listening room and Raven hauled out the Maggies.  Well, I was impressed at their scale and also the bass (I wasn't expecting much).  And they were in very good shape for as old as they are.  I did want more high end extension, but overall liked the speakers.  The ZMA has just enough juice to give you an idea of their sound.

Anyway, the reason Raven got them out was he had a buyer who stopped by and listened to them, pulled out a wad of cash and bought them.

With the glue set, we took the baffles back to the big saw and Raven trimmed them on all four sides.  Again very precision.

I had pulled the drivers from my current baffles so we figured out where to place them and figured out all the measurements.  Raven has this "ruler" that does 64ths and you can use a mechanical pencil to mark through the ruler.  Also, an electronic tool which measures very precisely the thickness of flange, etc.

Using Raven plunge router and his home made jib, we double teamed the routing of the driver holes.  Raven manned the router and I worked the shop vac.  With two people and the quality of Raven's router, we banged out the full ranger holes and then did the initial cut on the Auggie holes.  

Our goal was to flush mount all the drivers so we cut for the Auggie flange "ledge."  I brought them home and routed out the main hole for the basket.

We were off  by about a 64th on the Auggie hole so I had to do a little sanding to get them to fit.  

Anyway, in less than a day, I had the baffles roughed out.  Today I will build the "feet."  I may go back to Raven's to use his 1/2" router bit to round off the corners before I glue up the final.

Raven has the pics that we took during the process.






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Donnie
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #1 - 01/15/17 at 16:49:29
 
Quote:
We came back to his place and cut my sheet down to do my version of the "Donnie baffles" modeled after baffles designed by speaker builder extraordinaire - Donnie.


That is the most humorous sentence I have ever read.
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Palomino
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #2 - 01/15/17 at 17:20:36
 
Well they sounded good and you inspired us!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #3 - 01/15/17 at 17:23:12
 
Images of the above.

This is a lot of MDF - 1 full sheet and a 24 x 48 for Palomino's OBs, and 2 full sheets for my next 18" subwoofer (still haven't decided which box design to do).





Even with using a straight edge and a small, Lithium Ion powered (Bosch of course) circular saw, all our panels were within 1/8" *before* we took them to the new table saw to true them up!




I suggested we glue the double baffles up first, then true them up on the table saw. They were cut to 23" by 30" I think. We spread the glue out using wood scraps getting it right to the edge, then used a brad nailer to pop a couple pin nails in spots we knew wouldn't be hit by a blade in future cuts. This keeps the panels from sliding back and forth on the glue when we apply clamps.




We used 2 x 4 studs cut up to appropriate size to more evenly distribute the clamping pressure, and stacked the two double baffles together = fewer clamps needed and even more pressure distribution.





Looks pretty consistent for a couple hacks in a garage with a circular saw!  Really, our goal was to try and keep up with Donnie's quality of work...with all my fancy tools I've been slowly buying over the past 10 years, if we didn't at least look as good as Donnie's work when he's pretty much working with caveman tools...well, we couldn't exactly be called DIY audiophiles.  ;)





I love my fancy CNC milled aluminum and stainless steel rulers! We really needed our old man glasses, and even then we had to double check each others work, as we both caught each others minor mistakes. Measure twice, double check twice, cut once I guess.  :)
Palo working on the layout he wanted.




Measuring out the mounting depth on the speakers since Palomino wanted them flush mount with the baffle face. Even with all this accuracy, I was off a hair on my cuts, a little deep here, a little shallow there. It was all human error and no fault of the tools though. I was really feeling like the quality of my tools surpassed my skill level! And honestly, that's a real good thing!







Router setup to cut circles with my ghetto circle jig, and the near finished routs just before Pal had to dash home to the family. I didn't realize all this took about 7 hours including stopping for Taco Bell (yes, he paid me in tacos for my help!), and demoing and selling my Maggie speakers. It was a real enjoyable day working with a friend, that didn't seem like work at all!









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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #4 - 01/15/17 at 17:34:23
 

Since Palomino has hopefully finished cutting out the 15" Augie baffle, and used jigsaw and sandpaper to get a better fit of the drivers in the holes, our next step is to have him swing by so I can use the big Bosch router and my 3/4" roundover bit to give all the edges a nice curved finish rather than the hard 90 degree edge. Supposedly this helps with the soundwaves leave the baffle smoothly or something. I really didn't read much up on it. Hell, I'd just do it for aesthetics. But we can knock out that roundover on both sides of both panels in less than 30 minutes I'm sure.

As good, and smooth as these are looking, I'm really hoping they get painted, but that's a whole nother can-o-worms and skillset that I'm not sure we possess. Well, I don't possess at least. Maybe I'll get to working on my OB baffles today - I should probably tidy up, and maybe even double the baffle to keep up with the other gents.  ;D
But I have a fun paint scheme in mind for my baffles.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #5 - 01/15/17 at 18:15:36
 
If you decide to paint, use Zinsser BIN primer. It sticks real well, covers anything, and sands real nice. 2-4 coats put on with a roller and then sanded  flat with 100 paper, then some 220, it will make a nice base.
I'd then roll on a couple of coats of color, and sand it flat then buff it.
Or maybe it is time to learn how to veneer! It isn't that hard to do.

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Palomino
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #6 - 01/16/17 at 11:27:23
 
I had to sand about 10 min per baffle to get the Augies to slip into place.   A little bit of jigsaw work on the main driver holes and some sanding to clean up and they were good to go.  Those holes were the one real miss of the day due to the extending basket metal.

I should have them assembled for a listen later today.  If I like them then I'll do some more work on them.
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Donnie
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #7 - 01/16/17 at 14:40:39
 
Palo,
Have you thought about chamfering the back side of your driver cutouts?
I didn't because I didn't really have a way to do it other than sanding. I really need to buy a router, lol.
The only thing that would be difficult would be that you would have to counterbore for your nuts on the backside. Not that difficult, but something to think about.
Another thought, do you have long enough bolts for the extra thickness?
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Palomino
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #8 - 01/16/17 at 23:31:06
 
Hi Donnie,  I could route the back side to clean it up.  Bolts for the Augies are plenty long.  For the tang bands they are barely long enough.

I ended up having to screw the foot to the baffle.  Glue just not enough.

I ended up doing other stuff and didn't get the drivers in today.  Just ran out of time.
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Donnie
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #9 - 01/17/17 at 00:50:22
 
I wish that I was closer to you guys. I need friends who understand my need to build speakers.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #10 - 01/17/17 at 06:07:31
 

Hey, we're only 3 hours away.  ;)
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #11 - 01/17/17 at 20:28:13
 
Donnie, I assume the chamfering helps the rear soundwave in some way?

I just need to drop the drivers in tonight and I will see if this design gives me any extension on either end of the spectrum.

If not, I am out about $25.  But at the same time I gained some woodworking knowledge and some fun times with El Presidente.

I kinda wish I had the tools to slap together 3 sheets of MDF.  I just think heavier would be better.
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Donnie
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #12 - 01/17/17 at 22:25:32
 
Palo,
What I've read about chamfering the back is that it helps the driver "breathe" better.  Kinda sounds hokey though, but you never know....
So your thinking 2.25" thick is the next big thing? My speakers would weigh 125lbs a piece.
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Palomino
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #13 - 01/17/17 at 22:38:26
 
Well, I am thinking you benefit from the additional mass of your speakers.  Those metal bars and the "rear' baffle.  Not a lot of energy wasted from baffle vibration there.

So after we built these baffles at 1.5", I said these are significant, but they ain't no "Donnies."
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #14 - 01/18/17 at 12:39:03
 
I got the drivers in the baffles last night.  I took them down to two bolts in each driver for quicker switching in hope that I would have some audio memory.  I also listened to a few tunes with high and low end.

Not sure if I hear high frequency extension.  At first I thought I did, but with more listening on the same tunes, it seems about the same.  But the bass does seem to have more grip.  Overall they sound pretty good.  

I am messing around with placement/toe in because I seem to have taken a step back in 3D or holographic imaging.

When playing a bass heavy song, I seem to get more vibration in the baffles than I did with the Pure Audio type baffle.  Those panels on the PA baffles had cushion between them and the rest of the frame but the total weight of that setup is probably 10% of these baffles.  Interesting.
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Palomino
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #15 - 01/18/17 at 17:28:14
 
Here is what they look like so far.  I did end up flipping the speakers to where the full ranger is on the outside.  I think this helped with widening the soundstage and maybe the 3d imaging.

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #16 - 01/19/17 at 02:09:53
 

Lets round over those edges and see if maybe a brace of some sort can stiffen them from whatever bass rattling your hearing.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #17 - 01/19/17 at 03:20:05
 
'What I've read about chamfering the back is that it helps the driver "breathe" better.'

Applies more to smaller drivers.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #18 - 01/19/17 at 03:58:35
 
Raven, I don't hear the bass rattling but I can feel it vibrating the baffle.  Seems like it couldn't be good for the other drivers performance.  Thinking that the baffle needs to be thicker.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #19 - 01/19/17 at 16:50:32
 

Or, split those two panels and mount them to the frame you had the old baffle on?

We can add more baffle if you want - we know my tools can do it. We can also chamfer or round over the backsides of the cutouts...I'm pretty sure I have bits for both options.

I sold one band saw last night - I still have the other one up for sale and people interested. I should probably cut the nice curves of my Betsy baffle before the second (the newer saw I restored) one sells. I've just been too wrapped up in work goings on.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #20 - 01/19/17 at 17:08:36
 
I was thinking about adding some rectangle pieces of MDF to the back so we wouldn't have to do more routing which may or may not line up.  

I am not sure that additional mass would help but its worth a try.

Don't get me wrong, these sound very good.  Just the vibration in the baffle seems too much.  Like there is a band of bass sound that is exciting the resonant frequency of the baffle or something.

I like your attach them to the old frame idea, but I'd have to see if they will hold the weight.
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Donnie
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #21 - 01/19/17 at 17:31:17
 
Palo,
Are you positive that the laminations are completely stuck together?
Maybe drill some holes halfway through on the back side and pull the MDF together with some 1.25" wood screws
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #22 - 01/19/17 at 18:47:22
 
Donnie, we were pretty good about our glue application and clamping.  They are solid as a rock.  It could have to do with it being attached to a "foot" (glued and screwed).  It's kind of like a tuning fork.

Overall I just think that to harness the energy put out by those augies, you need a lot of mass.

When I went to Axpona and looked at OBs there like the Spatial, those babies were at least 3" thick.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #23 - 01/19/17 at 20:23:23
 

Yeah, I'm sure our laminations were solid all the way through. After we glued up the panels, we trued them up (made them perfectly square) and we had zero air gaps - then we routed completely through both layers for the drivers...also no voids.

I think Tom's got it right, I think it's the baffle and base happens to be in a sympathetic vibration...he built some giant tuning forks. LOL

Tom, speaking of Axpona...remember when we saw those winged diffusers in one of the rooms a few years ago?  Well, talking about the Golden Horns and jigs and stuff, I got an idea in my head to try and clone a pair of those wing diffusers with some 1/4" plywood and some poplar caps (top and bottom). I found this transparent winged diffuser they now make which reminded me of how cool they look...and how well I think they will work diffusing sound in the *time* domain.  I think this is my next quick project!



So do I post this in the DIY section or the Room Treatment section? LOL
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #24 - 01/19/17 at 20:24:55
 
I took some rough measurements at Axpona.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #25 - 01/19/17 at 21:22:02
 

Yeah, I think it's going to happen. MDF (or Plywood) and hardwood wing diffusers.  :)

What's nice about this, is that once I make a jig to rout out the top and bottom caps, I could probably assemble a pair of these in 4 hours.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #26 - 01/19/17 at 22:59:59
 
LR,

 Just saw this post, and spotted the diffusers. If they work as ingenious as they look, you in for a treat. Acoustic experimentation is practically endless. Now, as a DIY project, do you have ideas about what could be used as far as the plastic panels are concerned? I'm sure that there is some sort of idea that will come to mind.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #27 - 01/20/17 at 14:57:05
 

As I mentioned above, it's just going to be MDF and Poplar, or maybe plywood - I'll probably be trying both options and see what happens.

I saw Steve last night when I dropped my Zen amp off at Decware for UFO treatment - mentioned this to him, and he liked the idea. He thought those "tubes" the sound would travel through would "sing" at specific frequencies which (IMHO) might be good or bad. So I'll probably make at least 4 of them and see how they sound real world.  I really like time delay in my listening room, it helps the ears/brain hear/filter the difference between the source soundwave and reflected soundwaves.

But, I should probably start my own thread and not clutter up Palomino's...though our threads tend to run parallel since we share ideas and test rooms and hardware together. (shrug).
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #28 - 01/20/17 at 15:09:34
 
I may add a few updates to this thread if I try some things, but overall, I am pretty happy with these baffles.  Especially on the low end.  I wish there were a better way to A/B the high end given the new offset.  

With the bass, it's no contest.  Even if the baffle does seem to resonate.  I intend to put the augies back into the old baffle while I paint the new one and I will see how much that baffle resonates.

Its interesting that you went the way of those new diffusers after that picture Steve posted of that room.  I immediately started thinking of building skylines that I could mount to my ceiling using the foam.  I'd still rip the sheets into 2"X 2" strips on the table saw, then use my hot wire cutter to quickly bang out hundreds of blocks whose length would be pre-marked.  Glue them to foam board and see what I get.

Oh, and I would make the sheet to the exact size of my ceiling tiles so I could mount them in their place.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #29 - 01/20/17 at 17:18:41
 

If you're going to go skyline, remember a few things

#1 no time delay in a skyline

#2 there could be an apparently loss in (reflected) volume because you're diffusing in 2D rather than 1D. (which isn't a bad thing)

#3 You'll need quite a bit of them to really get a good feel. I don't think just replacing a couple 24" x 24" tiles would do it...I think you'd really need at least four 24" x 24" tiles replaced with these to make a decent impact.

Lastly, if I can make these diffuser-wings light enough, we could totally hang them like the foam diffusers and that would give us a time delay.

I'm going to start on this right away. It's a slight departure from where I was going, but should be able to knock it out quick.

Ping me if you need any further woodworking done on those OBs, but it sounds like you have a plan in mind already.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #30 - 01/20/17 at 17:58:18
 

Palomino's skyline diffuser sweatshop, hard at work.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnWoOCUfpGw

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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #31 - 01/20/17 at 23:36:00
 
Palo,
Are your new baffles getting the treble extension that my baffles get?
If not, I wonder if it is the drivers their self, or maybe my asymmetrical mounting?
I'm impressed that you are getting even better bass. Your old baffles bass kicked my speakers ass around the block!
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #32 - 01/21/17 at 01:12:54
 
Not sure.  At first o thought so but then after listening for a while I wasn't sure.  At least it is not as noticeable as the bass.  When I first heard it I was like "oh yeah".
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #33 - 01/22/17 at 08:49:43
 

Palo - I'm going to message you. I have an idea that if we get the hot wire working would make some amazing skylines really quickly and easily.
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #34 - 01/23/17 at 05:54:22
 
Hey LR and Pal - I continue to be intrigued by your ideas, and the progress that you are making in your listening environments. When you get working models, post some pics, please. I for one would be interested in purchasing diffusers built by fellow forum members, and I'm guessing that others would be,too, so keep us posted.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #35 - 01/24/17 at 03:51:25
 

I've been asked to provide some of my diffuser designs for one of the rooms at Axpona - so yeah, I need to get my butt moving and figure out which design would be great bang for the buck and get them in production ASAP!

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Bottlehead
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #36 - 02/01/17 at 03:00:44
 
Cool, LR! Let us know how that goes, and take pics if you can.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Latest OB baffle build
Reply #37 - 02/01/17 at 17:37:32
 

Oh you know me, I love showing off pics of my mad scientist workings.  ;)
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