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Small Room Project (Read 4726 times)
Ron
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Posts: 177
Small Room Project
08/07/16 at 14:51:25
 
I wanted to start a thread to document my progress in getting a small dedicated listening room together.

Room Dimensions

11W x 12.5L x 10H

Equipment

  • Decware Mini Torii
  • AudioResearch PH3 Phono Pre
  • DIY Mark Audio A12P SuperPensils
  • Vinyl Nirvana VN-150 (Thorens TD-150)


Initial Room Comments

Due to the small dimensions, there is a big of a boom bass note around 50 Hz as well as a harsh high frequency band that made listening fatiguing.

After a discussion with Steve he recommended to start with two easy items and see how far it takes us.

  • Add a heavy duty commercial carpet pad under the area rug.
  • Add corner foam pads in 2-3 corners of the room.


Measurement Process

We sampled in the sweet spot and then off-axis in each direction using a measurement mic and REW to get the speaker and room response.

Updated Response

After making the changes to the room there was a much smoother response. Much easier to listen to music in the room now. The carpet pad had a huge impact! (Thanks Steve!)

After making the adjustments, the Mini Torii has to be turned up a bit more to reach the desired listening volume (I don't listen very loud, just like to be consumed by the music).
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CarpetPadResp.png

HR-1 + Torii Jr. + ZROCK2 + ZP3 + VPI Prime Scout + UberBUSS + TriodeWireLabs Seven/Ten Plus + ASC IsoThermal TubeTraps
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jpv
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Cause inside
everyone is a heavy
metal kid

Posts: 148
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #1 - 08/09/16 at 20:45:59
 
Ron,
 Google "super chunk bass traps". Build those for the corners instead of putting foam in the corners. Foam will not work as well as Rockwool or Cornings 703.
  Post some pics of your room and the REW MDAT as well if you can.
JPV
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VPI Scoutmaster, Grado Sonata 2, Counterpoint pre amp and amp (modded by Altavista Audio), Proac sp. and home made subs. Lots of room treatment. Anti-cable sp cables and IC, Decware IC, ZKit 1.
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Jeff1
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Posts: 58
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #2 - 08/13/16 at 19:29:24
 
Ron, I agree rockwool is better than foam in assisting with controlling bass. I built tube traps 14" and 20 " which I use in the 4 corners. I could stack them in 2 corners but I have not tried that yet. With these I can move them in our out of the corners to make fine adjustments and they could be used on sidewalls as well depending on your needs. Just a thought if you are looking for a way to experiment.
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Esoteric SA-50, ZMA, Legacy Sigs SE w/Metro Sub, PI Audio Uberbuss, All Cables OmegaMikro, Room treatment absorbers, diffusers and tube traps.
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Lonely Raven
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Posts: 2956
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #3 - 09/01/16 at 20:20:52
 
I agree with above - the problem is, for a room that small, you're going to really need *a lot* of bass traps to tame the boom. The Superchunks are a good, inexpensive, and easy to make option, but are only going to make a small dent.

To get serious, you'd need a diafragmatic absorber and/or helmholtz resonators. They can be tuned for the issue you have, but will still be big and can be difficult to build.


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Jeff1
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Re: Small Room Project
Reply #4 - 09/09/16 at 23:09:45
 
I like the superchunk design. Some are built right on the wall and some are made individually to fit snug in the corner but retain mobility if you need to remove them. Also  a handy design on a smaller version to use at the wall ceiling juncture where needed. I have doors and windows to close to my corners to use that design hence my tube traps but the volume of damping material equal. With your target of about 50hz a 12" depth with about a 2' front would help. Post an update when you are able and let us know how things are working.
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Esoteric SA-50, ZMA, Legacy Sigs SE w/Metro Sub, PI Audio Uberbuss, All Cables OmegaMikro, Room treatment absorbers, diffusers and tube traps.
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Acetone
Seasoned Member
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when music hits you,
you feel no pain

Posts: 537
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #5 - 10/26/16 at 18:30:14
 
Hey Ron, stick with it. The benefits of diffusers and absorbers have made a big difference in my small dedicated space. 11' x 16' x 8'H. I still need to make some additions when the cash frees up. There are several windows I need to address as well as getting additional bass traps. But, depending on the recording the sound can sometimes be immense and the bass a nice thumping in you chest. I usually don't push my volume past 10 o'clock on the Zen amp.
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SuperZen-CKC, ZP3, Zstage, ZRock2, DM947-Monoliths, VPI-Traveler-2M black. Philips CDR-880. Decware/Audio Envy/RAC-PC's & IC's, Mapleshade Dbl Helix+ Spkr wire-jumpers, Blue Circle PLC FX2 X0e. Herbies tube dampers, tenderfoots, GIK & PI Audio, DIY room treatments
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stone_of_tone
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Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 2625
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #6 - 10/26/16 at 20:25:22
 
Hi Ron. Sweet isn't it to do these simple room treatments and solve 95% of your issues.

Now that you're almost three months in:
I'm in a similar sized room and in addition to what you have done via Steve's suggestion, test for clap echo and do treat your upper wall to ceiling corner's (for high frequencies). I use Michael Green Room Tunes for this. You can make them yourself too.

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649289939-michael-green-audio-room-tunes-10-p...

Scroll to the Triangle ones....I use those in my upper corner's to ceiling.

Rockwool as suggested, is better for the corner's. I use a pseudo form of it in my corner's and on the walls.
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« Last Edit: 10/26/16 at 20:55:28 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
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Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 2956
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #7 - 12/01/16 at 15:53:38
 

I still find those pillows a bit hard to believe.
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stone_of_tone
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Listen Often/Listen
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Posts: 2625
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #8 - 12/06/16 at 20:17:35
 
Not hard to believe at all.

Many of more learned men than you and I...have found MG's corner tunes to be quite effective.....their is also a layer of ** under the translucent fabric.

In conjunction with other room treatment as the poster has done and I have done too......most of your woes are taken care of....as he has clearly stated.

You don't need to kill a mosquito with a sledge hammer. Hours of time and money obsessing over room treatment to be damn near an Anechoic chamber is what I find hard to believe. Shocked Shocked Grin
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Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Palomino
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Posts: 1492
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #9 - 12/08/16 at 19:14:28
 
Keeps me off the streets, Stone Smiley
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 2, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Chord QuteHD with LPSU, DIY Belden ICs, Torii MKIII, SE34I.32, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, Vintage Western Electric 16g Speaker wires, DIY Speakers
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stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
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Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 2625
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #10 - 12/08/16 at 20:06:05
 
I get your meaning Palomino....not a bad rabbit hole for ya. My R-hole is 95% room/now right with treatment.....and hone in on harmonic's of different pre tubes with 3 different Amps. Rectifier's too.

Decware ZMA
Vaughn Carina
Decware Rachael










Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder ++
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & matched Quad/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20% to 30-40% max ~ from 0 Gain


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************


Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps.






Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)

++ ZDSD DAC, kicked to the Curb: Auralic Vega, PS Audio PWT & PWD, PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, Chord Qute, NAD M51 (twice) & Schiit Yggdrasil.


~NOS Platinum Tubes from Upscale Audio/Kevin:

(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair.

From Cryoset:
(Russia) 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair

(Russia) 6N23P's ~ 2 pair/came with ZMA.
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« Last Edit: 12/08/16 at 20:20:53 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
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Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 2625
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #11 - 12/08/16 at 20:25:17
 
LR, no need to be bashful.

If your passion is rewiring your whole house and burying grounding rods....and a Anechoic chamber/for testing.....so be it. Each to his or her own.

Grin Grin Tongue Tongue
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Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Lonely Raven
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Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 2956
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #12 - 12/09/16 at 20:34:46
 
Quote:
You don't need to kill a mosquito with a sledge hammer. Hours of time and money obsessing over room treatment to be damn near an Anechoic chamber is what I find hard to believe



I am very, very, very far from Anechoic chamber. In fact, I'm building the exact opposite.

The rest about wiring and ground rods is dead on though. LOL
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stone_of_tone
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Listen Often/Listen
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Posts: 2625
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #13 - 12/10/16 at 18:22:35
 
You know I'm busting your chops..... . I bet it all works well. But, obviously, IMHO.....think you're nuts on the wall wiring and overkill acoustics.

Hey, I bought a Eddie Vaughn Carina (from robster~classifieds here). I should have her in my System next Thursday or Friday.

Fun to hear Eddie's take on the EL84 pentode in triode. Has a switch for UL too.
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« Last Edit: 12/11/16 at 16:56:38 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Palomino
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 1492
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #14 - 12/16/16 at 18:53:30
 
Raven ran the numbers through QRDude for me (its windows only and I am Mac) and gave me the QRD23 design which I made two of out of cheap underlayment board (but its very straight) and 1" wide foam.  The "chamber" never sounded so good.

I told him today if I had to do it over again, I would do the whole room in QRD23's.  I have a mixture of 7's, 13's and now the 23s.  The 23s destroy the sense of any walls in my room.  Still playing around with their placement.

I am running both the OBs and the mock monoliths.  Both sound superb in my 12.5 X 16 room.

I have a desk in there as it doubles as my office.  Thinking it has to go.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 2, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Chord QuteHD with LPSU, DIY Belden ICs, Torii MKIII, SE34I.32, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, Vintage Western Electric 16g Speaker wires, DIY Speakers
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Lonely Raven
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Posts: 2956
Re: Small Room Project
Reply #15 - 12/16/16 at 19:39:03
 
Edited:
Raven ran the numbers through QRDude for me (its windows only and I am Mac) and gave me the QRD23 design which I made two of out of cheap underlayment board (but its very straight) and 1" wide foam.  The "chamber" never sounded so good.

I told him today if I had to do it over again, I would do the whole room in QRD23's.  I have a mixture of 7's, 13's and now the 23s.  The 23s destroy the sense of any walls in my room.  Still playing around with their placement.

I am running both the OBs and the mock monoliths.  Both sound superb in my 12.5 X 16 room.

I have a desk in there as it doubles as my office.  Thinking it has to go.


Reading this post makes me proud, excited, and laughing, especially at that last part.  I seem to remember one of the first time at your house when I finally felt comfortable offering suggestions to you, I said those shelves have to go, window needs to be plugged, and if you're really going all out, the desk has to go.

All you guys reading this, have no idea how amazing Palomino's room sounds.

As I've said for 18 years now, diffusers are the key to unlocking amazing imaging and frequency balance in a room.

Just building and deploying my one QRD29 diffuser has improved my sound as much as a good firmware update on my DirectStream. And that's on top of already having a DirectStream with good firmware (LOL) and a room full of smaller diffusers.

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« Last Edit: 12/16/16 at 19:40:11 by Lonely Raven »  
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