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Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT (Read 6772 times)
Ron
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Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
07/26/16 at 19:24:51
 
I currently have a MT, while it is an amazing music, I feel like I am being limited by its substantial gain over a standard amp. My only source is my Thorens TD-150 into an Audio Research PH3 with an Ortofon 2M Bronze cart.

My listening room is small, 11x12, so I basically can barely turn my volume past 5-10% before it gets too loud. (Running these into SuperPensils w/ Mark Audio A12P drivers).

I am doing some room treatments and getting new furniture for the room. I was also planning on an upgrade to the Zen Phono Stage and new speakers. I was leaning towards the HR-1s but dont want to do that if it makes more sense to change my amp around.

When I started thinking about it, I immediately started looking at the SE34I.5... then it dawned on me that I should look at the Torii Jr. or Torii Mk 4. That would open up a world of possibilities.

I of course could drop a pre-amp in front of my MT but I really like the approach of less is more.

Basically it comes down to:

1. Do I replace my PH3 with the ZP3?
2. Do I change from my MT to a SE34I.5 or Torii Jr/Torii? If so what one?
3. What speakers for a 11x12 room where I would like to keep the footprint on the smaller side.

So far I looked at OmegaSpeakers, Tannoy, Decware (obviously), Zu Audio (removed from list), and DeVore Gibbon 88.

Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.
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Lin
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #1 - 07/27/16 at 14:46:54
 
FWIW
PH3 gain = 54 dB
ZP3 gain = 42 dB
12 dB less gain would help, not sure if it would be enough.

I usually agree less is more, but if you add a "preamp" it should be one that does not add more gain.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/zbox.htm
http://www.goldpt.com/sa1.html


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« Last Edit: 07/27/16 at 14:48:23 by Lin »  
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seikosha
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #2 - 07/27/16 at 15:04:01
 
Hard to answer your question without knowing more.  Not being able to turn a volume control as far as you'd like seems like an odd reason to want to by a new amp.  Are you looking for a different sound?  Is there something about the Mini Torii that you are looking on to improve?

I've got a Mini Torii and just sold some Alpair 10P Pensils.  I've also got a Zen SE84 UFO that drove those speakers just fine as well.  While the Pensils are fine speakers, I found that I preferred the sound of the Omegas...both the Alnico and 3XRS models.

I've also played with my Zstage in front of the Mini Torii.  Lowering the gain so I had more volume play with the Mini Torii really didn't change the overall character of that amp.

Perhaps what you are missing could simply be satisfied by a change in speakers or maybe it is the amplifier?  Sorry for the non answer, I guess we need to know exactly what areas of improvement you are looking for.



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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #3 - 07/27/16 at 18:59:46
 
Thanks for the grain reference. I have the lowest gain tunes in the MT as well. The big difference between the MT and other amps is that only 1V input is required for maximum output volume. Obviously with a MM TT + Pre, I have the standard 2V input...

My description on not being able to turn up the volume was poor. Essentially with 6 oclock position being off, at 7 oclock the amp is just starting to produce output, at 8 oclock its really at 100% of where I would want to listen, and at 9 oclock its starting to distort pretty badly.

Having such small adjustments make such a huge impact in volume makes it difficult to really dial the amp in.

For reference, the two other potential amps I am looking at... The SE34I.5 is a 2.5V input and the Torii Jr is 2V Adjustable Input.

I am a huge fan of the less is more, I don't want to add a pre-amp, and throwing a device in the signal path to lower the gain seems counter intuitive when the problem might just be the input voltage configuration of the MT.

It also doesnt help that the room is very hot at 3kHz. To the point where listening to the Mark Audio A12P drivers is uncomfortable at anything louder than 7:30/8 oclock position on the MT. This is a room issue, which I am in the progress of remedying.

Essentially the HR-1 speakers would be nice, not sure I can pony up that kind of cash.

The ERRx seem like a good option for my sub-par listening room, and I was also interested in the Ohm Walsh speakers. I of course want to figure out the amp situation first.

Thanks again for the input all!

-Ron
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hdrider
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #4 - 07/27/16 at 19:21:34
 
Ron - we have a ZMC1>ZP3>Rachael into Omega 7XRS mk2 and have plenty of gain on the phono end of things. It does seem nice to have a wider window of adjustment on the volume control on the Rachael. I would only add a CSP3 to our system to add weight to the cd player. Decware & Omega is one happy combo. Happy listening, Chris.
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Lin
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #5 - 07/27/16 at 20:02:15
 
The big difference between the MT and other (Decware) amps is that only 1V input is required for maximum output volume.

The vast majority of amps with a v/c that I'm aware of have an input sensitivity between 0.35 to 0.75v.
Decware being an exception.

From the MT design notes:
PREAMP

This is the first amp we've done with more than one gain stage driving the output tubes which means it basically has a preamp built in.  This was done for two reasons.  A) Since the volume control only gets to the half way point before the amp starts clipping on a 2 volt source, there is a better sense of acceleration.  You could think of it as a muscle car with higher compression.  B) Using sources like computer sound cards, IPods, and other portable devices means lower than 2 volt sources will be regularly encountered, so the additional gain will restore the drive and weight that these sources typically lack.


AR PH3: max output capability is 30V RMS output at 1/2% THD at 1kHz Shocked

If it were me and I was happy overall with the system, I'd probably try a Goldpoint passive between the PH3 and MT.
No different really than people using a source with a v/c into an amp with a v/c.
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« Last Edit: 07/27/16 at 20:07:41 by Lin »  
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seikosha
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #6 - 07/27/16 at 20:37:53
 
Ron, that's odd that your Mini Torii is distorting at 9:00 on the volume dial.  I can turn mine much louder than that, and can listen to it at 12:00 with no sense of distortion at all....just uncomfortably loud.  Can you reduce the amount of voltage coming into from the AR PH3?

If you had another source available, I'd try that and see if you are getting the same issues.  Perhaps you have a dvd player that you could hook up to see if things change?
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« Last Edit: 07/27/16 at 20:49:33 by seikosha »  

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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #7 - 07/27/16 at 21:30:32
 
I've battled input voltage before, but from the too low side.
It is a funny thing on how much a little voltage changes everything.
Riding the gain does sound fun to me.
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #8 - 07/28/16 at 01:35:05
 
Ok so I turned my feedback knob all the way clockwise to tame the highs. That helped quite a bit. I feel the main issue is my speakers and room.

HR-1 are a little bit too pricey for my taste, but the DM947 or ERRx's are more in the sweet spot. Especially if I will be getting the ZP3 as well.

After I turned the feedback knob clockwise I was able to move the volume knob past 9 oclock up to 12 oclock.

That tells me the shout in the mid range is really where the speakers start to break up big time.

I will be doing a real room response shortly.

I love the MT and will stick with it if there is an efficient speaker that can be tamed.

Side note, I was looking at the Ohm Walsh Tall 1000, but I don't feel comfortable trying that speaker with the 4W MT. Has anyone heard these in person? Similar concept to the ERRx and at least there are many reports of the ERRx sounding amazing.

Thanks again for all the input this is fantastic!
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Lin
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #9 - 07/28/16 at 02:53:02
 
The Ohm T1000 are @ 86.5 dB 1w/1m  I would want more power.
The DM 947 are @ 91 dB 1w/1m
One forum member ended up feeling the MT was not quite enough with DM 945s (possibly in a larger room?)
As always YMMV Wink
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #10 - 07/29/16 at 01:18:52
 
Has anyone here had good luck with the ERRx + Mini Torii. I think the combination of the ERRx and the ZP3 with my MT might make for a killer system.

It is minimalistic, the ERRx look like they will help some with the room acoustics and the system also stays very small/tight.

Thanks
Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #11 - 07/29/16 at 17:01:04
 
I have the MT with Ref 3A de Capos at 92db eff.

my room is 12 x 20 with opening on the sides into other spaces/rooms

loud is the vol. know up at 12  most of the time its at 10

the speakers are flat impedence
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #12 - 07/31/16 at 21:58:31
 
Thank you for the replies. I spent a few hours today with my brother doing a full frequency response of the room and my current speakers. The amp isn't the problem, the speakers and the room are the culprit (obviously). I just didnt realize how bad it was in the new room/new house.

I turned off the treble control circuit so we were measuring the pure signal of the Mark Audio drivers in their cabinets.

Below is the averaged (18 measurement) frequency response.



As you can see, there is a 51 Hz huge bump. Drivers don't go much lower then 50 Hz.

Then there is a huge drop off, but lets say we cannot trust anything below 200 Hz...

From 200 Hz to 1 kHz there is essentially no midrange. This explains my problem about having way too much shout. I am turning the amp too loud to begin to hear the mids, but the drivers are producing highs that are very uncomfortable to listen to.

... So that leaves me with a speaker selection choice. Considering the room challenges I feel like the ERRx or HR-1 might make sense.

Hard for me to buy a speaker un-heard, especially the HR-1s. I know they will be amazing, but that is a lot to drop without hearing them. Wish I was closer to IL for Decfest.

The reason I am still looking at the Torii Jr is to open up some more options when it comes to speaker selections (like the Ohm Walsh 1000s)...

Hopefully this was as interesting to everyone as it was to me!

Ciao,
Ron Valente
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« Last Edit: 07/31/16 at 22:03:14 by Ron »  

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mark58
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #13 - 07/31/16 at 22:57:50
 
Ron, I understand your reluctance to shell out 5K for a speaker you haven't heard but that's exactly what I did 2 or 3 years ago and I don't regret it.  If you might return them, you need to get the standard finish otherwise you can't return them after a trial.  I have later found that the standard speaker can be ordered with external CAPs, that would add even more flexibility.  I have placed some 10 Ohm resistors externally...very simple...to tone down the tweeters a bit. Something quite a few here do.

Lon and others here have spoken extensively about their impressions of the HR-1, Lon even has the ERRx's...he has spoken highly of both but now that he has only one system, it is the HR-1's that he uses.  I suggest you read as many HR-1 comments as you can find with searches here.

Last, there is a pair of HR-1s on Audiogon, prototypes.  He is the second owner so he may have a lot of room to come off his ask of $2500.  He says the crossovers are different...by that I assume he means the CAPs which are easily changed/upgraded.

Anyway, good luck and if you end up with HR-1s, I'm sure you'll be happy with them.  Mark.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-decware-hr-1-prototypes-2016-07-30-...

PS...I also see that Steve's Demo HR-1s are for sale for $4200

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1461108027
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« Last Edit: 07/31/16 at 23:24:18 by mark58 »  

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The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #14 - 08/01/16 at 00:04:30
 
Ron, I responded to your PM but I'll also include the basic response here:

To be honest Ron, I think that both the ERRs that I have (which is the model before the ERRx) and the two HR-1 pairs that I have (one is one of the final prototypes, one is a current production model) are better for LARGER rooms. I had the predecessors to the ERRs (the RL-1 and RL-2) in a room just about your size and I struggled to relax into the music. They need to be far out from the wall to really image right IMO and then you are very close to them and the frequency balance is not quite right and you just don't forget they are there and relax into the sound. As soon as I took the RL-2s out into a larger room everything was better and I loved to listen to my music much more. That is when I ordered a pair of ERRs. Bob offered me a huge discount on two pairs if I were to take a pair of HR-1 prototypes he had ready to ship first. . . I had those a year before he built my ERRs! I love both of the speaker types but when a ship of mine came in I ordered a pair of production HR-1s which are subtly different (not necessarily better) and use them in my only system now. I think the HR-1s might work just a tad better in the small room, and the front firing driver will flesh out your frequency balance in the near field listening. But to be honest there is probably a better solution in a smaller speaker for that room. Perhaps the Open Baffles that Randy sells. Or the Decware monitors on some nice stands perhaps. I probably should have moved in that direction myself those years I was in a small room.
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« Last Edit: 08/01/16 at 00:05:20 by Lon »  

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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #15 - 08/01/16 at 01:26:10
 
Lon,

Thank you very much for your insight! Much appreciated.

Have a wonderful evening.

Cheers,
Ron
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #16 - 08/01/16 at 14:16:37
 
I would prefer a nice pair of tower speakers, but if the size of the room. Maybe directionals are my only option? I could also look at a pair of monitors but speakers on stands are much less appealing to me.
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #17 - 08/01/16 at 16:26:45
 
Hopefully others will chime in here with some advice and experience with the DNA or the Monoliths or the HDTs in a small room.
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #18 - 08/01/16 at 16:47:46
 
Yeah, that would be great. Even if I change amps, I am less inclined to go get something like a Focal or B+W...

The Ohms Walsh seems to have mixed reviews with their latest design.

Legacy Audio looked impressive as well as Harbeth, but all of those are going to need the Torii Jr ++.

Going to give Steve a call and get his input as well.

Thanks again
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #19 - 08/02/16 at 21:47:02
 
Just had an amazing chat with Steve, extremely helpful.

First step to take in the new room is to add a commercial (8 lbs) rug pad under the area rug and some bass traps to help out with reflections under 1 kHz (need mid-range absorption). Once that is done re-measure the room response. This might tone down the high end and low end to get a flatter response. Once that is done we will have a better baseline.

Furniture will only help/impact frequencies below 250 Hz, and if I may quote Steve: "Don't count on furniture to help with room response".

According to Steve, Right now my room is 84% of what I am hearing, I need to get that closer to 8%.

Once the room is in a good spot, I will start to upgrade pieces like the speakers, phono pre, and amp if needed.

I'll keep everyone posted on my progress. Thanks again for all the input/help so far!

-Ron
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #20 - 08/04/16 at 21:39:18
 
Good news: I through in 96 sq ft of 8lb carpet pad, what a difference!
Going to get myself the ZP3 and Torii Jr.

Now its time to decide on new speakers...

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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #21 - 06/13/17 at 02:28:10
 
It looks like Ron has moved on from the Mini Torii. But his problem interests me.

Ron said:
"Essentially with 6 oclock position being off, at 7 oclock the amp is just starting to produce output, at 8 oclock its really at 100% of where I would want to listen, and at 9 oclock its starting to distort pretty badly.
Having such small adjustments make such a huge impact in volume makes it difficult to really dial the amp in."

I am wondering: Would a different potentiometer under the volume knob provide the desired adjustment range?  

Brian
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #22 - 06/13/17 at 03:23:00
 
Run all your sources through a Z Stage so you can control the input voltage to the MT. No need to change amps. HR-1s will do just fine.
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Ron
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #23 - 06/13/17 at 10:33:54
 
This is due to MT being calibrated (by design) for a 1 volt source, not a 2 volt source. That being said, with an iPhone etc, the volume knob will travel to 100% no problem. However, if you have a CD player or TT connected, you get half your volume knob before you reach 100% output.

That is a great idea RR, you have options before you reach the MT to tweak the input. I ended up selling my MT to my brother, and moving to a Torii Jr. Both are fantastic amps!
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Lin
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #24 - 06/13/17 at 23:27:53
 
A ZBOX would probably be better; tube buffer/unity gain.
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #25 - 06/14/17 at 04:20:30
 
The box won't reduce the input voltage. I think he needs a Z Stage with the knob turned down lower than unity gain.
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #26 - 06/14/17 at 05:21:58
 
The first thing I would examine is if the Mini Torii has the designed 12AU7 in it.  If it had a 12AT7 or 12AX7 you would have issues even with CD.

And that is the reference we need to establish.  With a CD player or normal DAC, the output is 2 volts.  A mini torii can be turned up to 12 o'clock without clipping on almost all music.  If your source is only a volt or less, the volume will have to be turned up higher to compensate.

I would hook up a CD player to it, and see where your volume control lands in comparison to your phono stage to get a starting point to work from.

Steve
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Re: Stuck, Help decising what to do with my MT
Reply #27 - 06/14/17 at 22:39:42
 
"The box won't reduce the input voltage. I think he needs a Z Stage with the knob turned down lower than unity gain."


ZBOX has a volume/gain control which allows it to be adjusted from no output to near unity gain.

From the webpage: "The input level can be adjusted with the front mounted gain control.  In cases where no preamp is used, this can be used as a volume control."


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« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 22:52:31 by Lin »  
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