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Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3 (Read 11048 times)
Rraymond
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Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
03/25/16 at 21:42:00
 
Well, it's been a long wait and even though I got my ERRX speakers a week ago, I've been holding out for the Tori Junior to come in to listen to everything together(yes I was tempted to plug my speakers into my old solid state stuff but I used tons of will power not to). Also we bought a cheap pre-amp made by Artcessories DJ II until the ZP3 comes in down the road. I let my wife choose the first LP so we played Cat Stevens, Teaser and the Firecat. Well I knew the transformers were cold from shipping but I just couldn't wait. Cat Stevens vocals sounded a little shrill but overall the music sounded pretty good. Then we threw on Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon. Speak to me sounded pretty good but I think I could tell the vocals sounded a bit smeared(Steve warned me about this during break in). Then it was either Breathe or On the Run where things started to have more clarity(maybe the trannies finally warmed up). I heard the clocks and bell chime tones and Wow, it gave me goosebumps. I've listened to the rest of the album and several others and tried the volume at max and was expecting "concert levels" or something close but it seemed a bit shy of that or maybe just the punch wasn't what I had expected. Overall I'm happy with the start of things and am looking forward to final breakin and other little pieces that I'll be adding. In the meanwhile, I'm going to be shopping for better cables(currently using Blue Jeans Cables) and am thinking about the power cord Decware offers.
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #1 - 03/26/16 at 01:14:31
 
Quote:
...and other little pieces that I'll be adding...


My biggest "wow" moment with my TT came when I put really good isolation under my TT.  Try it and hear how the sound really comes into focus!  (Especially if you play loud.)
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4krow
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #2 - 03/26/16 at 01:25:15
 
  Getting the synergy in or out of a system can take time. No doubt there is a break in period, so I won't deny that. In my case however, getting the speaker placement right for my room and placing room treatment where needed was as important, if not more, than all the break in together. You will definitely hear changes as time goes on, and those will be welcome. Working with the environment you have is so key to getting all that you want and expect. I'm thinking that you have good start equipment wise, and then when the ZP3 comes in, that will make another turn in the road.
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #3 - 03/26/16 at 02:30:26
 
Well, I was wrong. This thing has BALLS!  I switched from the TT as an input to my Pioneer Elite CD player and turned it up just halfway and the room was completely filled with sound!!! I knew this should have more kick than what I was getting with the TT. Hopefully the ZP3 kicks the level up a few notches. Been running this amp for almost 8 hours now. Maybe time for a rest and fire it up again tomorrow.
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #4 - 03/26/16 at 05:14:53
 
The change from your turntable to CD player brought the signal voltage up to around 2 volts, which is standard.  To get this (OR MORE) from the turntable and a ZP3 you'll want to find a MM cartridge with 4mV or higher.  The Ortophon 2M Black at over 6mV is an ASS kicker and will make your CD player sound just like your CD player made the LP sound tonight.  That will be real balls.  Right now you're hearing balls with no density... translucent balls if you will.  When they get bigger and you can't see through them, things will get a whole lot more serious.  Remember a great amp lets you hear exactly what you put into it.

Oh, and yea, this is a great amp. Wink

Steve
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Lon
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #5 - 03/26/16 at 12:07:41
 
Absolutely! When I put the PS Audio PowerBase under my turntable things changed for the better in "Wow" ways. And adding the VooDoo Cable "Iso-Pods" (Stillpoint copies) was a further "Wow."

Glad your new setup is delivering now and it will only get better day by day!
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« Last Edit: 03/26/16 at 12:43:01 by Lon »  

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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #6 - 03/26/16 at 17:01:55
 
I would be willing to replace the Elys 2 cartridge with the Ortofon 2M Black if it really adds more weight and dimension but it seems as though the output level may be less than the Elys 2. According to the specs the Elys 2 outputs 6.8 to 7.2 mv where the Ortofon 2m black only puts out 5 mv. I know the Ortofon is 3x the price so it must be doing something better but will the overall level of the Tori Junior be closer to that of my CD player?  I know the CD player is way over the top loud at max and I don't need THAT much but the TT with the current Elys 2 cart is marginally loud enough when the Tori Jr is at max.
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Lon
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #7 - 03/26/16 at 17:09:24
 
You won't have any problem when you get the ZP3. . . I have used the Elys2 (good cartridge!) and the Elys2 will give plenty of voltage to the ZP3 and the ZP3 will give plenty to the Torii.
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« Last Edit: 03/26/16 at 17:11:13 by Lon »  

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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #8 - 03/26/16 at 17:26:40
 
So Lon, do the voodoo Isopods just sit under the existing Rega feet or are they supposed to replace them?  As far as cable interconnects go, I'm thinking the Decware seems affordable for my budget, so I'll be looking into that.
Thanks,
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Lon
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #9 - 03/26/16 at 17:38:42
 
I took off the Rega feet and use four IsoPods, one at the same location of the three Rega feet and one on the other side of the motor in the back. I've tried about four different types of footers on the RP3 and these work the best for me. I bought a lot of them when VooDoo Cable was running a sale a while back, and my whole audio chain rests on them (my video equipment rests on an earlier form of the VooDoo Cable Iso-pod.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #10 - 03/26/16 at 20:19:43
 
Quote:
I would be willing to replace the Elys 2 cartridge with the Ortofon 2M Black if it really adds more weight and dimension but it seems as though the output level may be less than the Elys 2. According to the specs the Elys 2 outputs 6.8 to 7.2 mv where the Ortofon 2m black only puts out 5 mv. I know the Ortofon is 3x the price so it must be doing something better but will the overall level of the Tori Junior be closer to that of my CD player?  I know the CD player is way over the top loud at max and I don't need THAT much but the TT with the current Elys 2 cart is marginally loud enough when the Tori Jr is at max.


Not to dispute the Master, but by my calculation a 4mV cart (Ortofon) gives about .5 volts from the ZP3 so you might be getting around 3/4 Volts with your cart.  To get the 2 volts you might need a CSP3 or Z Stage?  However, the "density" might be better with the TT than the DAC even with lower voltage.  I eventually went with a 0.5mV MC cart with a ZMC1 that gives me about 1 volt out of the ZP3.  I don't think a 2M Black will make much of a difference compared to other system enhancements that you may do.

Just my $.02   Smiley
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4krow
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #11 - 03/27/16 at 04:40:05
 
I just gotta say that if I weren't as impressed with the Rachel after the new mods, my next step would have been to get the Torii Jr.
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Mr.Dynamite
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #12 - 06/04/16 at 21:19:22
 
Congratulations on getting your new toys, Rraymond.  Last night I ordered the Torii Jr. myself.  This will be my first Decware item with hopefully speakers to follow.  
I'll have to wait a little bit for the Torii Jr., but if it's half as good as the reputation Decware has received over the years, Mr. Dynamite will be a very happy boy!
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KMokc
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #13 - 06/04/16 at 22:15:30
 
You will be very happy with the Torii Jr!  I love mine and I have serial number 1!
Grin
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #14 - 07/04/16 at 22:46:03
 
Recently received my Torii Jr., and I must say its got my ERRxs singing like canaries. These two are a great combo.
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #15 - 07/06/16 at 22:38:54
 
Tommy,
What kind of phono stage pre-amp are you using? I'm finding so far that most of the music sounds good but not awesome. I'm having minor issues with vocals especially they aren't always clear and I seem to have to stretch my ears to bring them more forward. I'm pretty sure everything I have is pretty much broken in and was expecting a little more out of my system.
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #16 - 07/08/16 at 01:11:03
 
Rick, I'm only running digital sources.
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Torii Jr., ERRx, ZBIT, Zenhead, Grado 325e
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #17 - 07/08/16 at 16:48:46
 
Raymond, how is your component isolation?  I could see where better TT isolation could clean up the sound -- a lot.  Every component maters though.  Do you have the same issue with your digital source?

From what I've read about the ERRs the laid back presentation might be normal?
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #18 - 07/10/16 at 03:35:21
 
Archie,
I have a Tripp Isolation transformer that everything plugs into. The TT and Tori Jr are on Iso Pods but the Zp3 is not. The CD player does seem tighter and cleaner sounding than the TT. I'm wondering if it's possible that the noise being picked up by the tonearm (I think from the TorII Jr power transformer) is causing the slurred sound?  Is it also possible that the ZP3 is not all the way broke in?  I don't know. I'm thinking about taking it all to the local Hifi store that I got the TT from and do some troubleshooting/experimenting with things to see if I can isolate the problem. We will see...
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #19 - 07/10/16 at 18:02:04
 
Rick,

One thing you might try would be to take the TT off of the Iso Pods and see if it gets worse.  The best jump in sound I got was when I put my TT on better isolation but I don't remember thinking it was bad before.  I just wouldn't want to go back.

I am finding that it takes layers of different isolation for more sensitive components.  I have my TT on an isolation platform while retaining its stock feet, which were pretty good by themselves.  I also have some lesser tweaks such as a bean-bag for the dustcover and I put shrink wrap on the tonearm for extra damping.

It's also possible the ZP3 needs isolation.  While mine wasn't that sensitive, my ZMA was unplayable at medium to higher volume without it.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #20 - 07/11/16 at 16:33:46
 
Rick,

One easy thing, are you keeping your TT stylus clean?  I've been tripped up by muddy sound and then found I'd neglected this critical item.
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #21 - 07/12/16 at 13:55:32
 
Archie,
Yes I clean the stylus daily with silly putty and occasionally with a very fine abrasive sheet that Linn TT company makes. I'm out of town this week but when I get back home, I'll get back at it. I'm hoping there's something simple to be found so I can really drowned myself in layers of beautiful sound!
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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atacgene
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #22 - 08/14/16 at 15:38:53
 
HI Rick,

I also have a Tori Jr fed from a Rega-like TT (goldring version) and using a cheap solid state phono stage from an integrated tube pre-amp so it may be somewhat similar to yours before you put your ZP3, (which I am planning to get!) I did realize a much lower volume using the Tori Jr, so I put the Z stage (which I already have) in between the phono pre-amp and Tori which has improved the sound a lot. (but note, I use MC very low output cartridge). The improvement when using Tori with LPs is not as dramatic as that with CDs, likely due to LPs already very analogue sound. Torri makes everything so analogue that CDs can sound like SACDs. But it is also very transparent, so it lets you hear crappy things from your system too, exposing the weakest link, for, e.g. I noted the cables in my case has become obviously weakest, so I switch from copper to silver (the copper is too warm and muddy with the tori ) which works great with the Decware.
I also know my weakest link is the cheap REGA TT, with cheap stock phone wires, no feet isolation etc. but it is my rough backup TT for casual playback. I have a Michell Gyro which immediately improves the situation a lot more. My CD source has less issue because it has a pretty solid DAC and the Tori just warms up the sound more, smoothens it, but with the TT, it can expose weakness that you are not aware of. From my experience, the CD sound has improved so much compared with TT, that I know I would need to do upgrades to my TT, so I did some cable switches to the TT system. So what I am trying to say is that Tori does not really help in improve the source but may actually make it more obvious to be the weakest link.

Without knowing the details of your system I am not entirely sure what the issues are but here are few things you may do:


1. the cables may need some good upgrades, as in my case, where I suddenly can hear more murkiness even from Decware's copper cables, so I switch to Silver (great for my system).

3. As suggested by previous writers, TT may need serious tweak, ? newer platter, better tone arm, or cartridge or better phono cable etc....

3. Are the speakers matched? If the impedence is too high, the volume may be lower, though 20 W is usually very adequate for most speakers

PS: Isolation can help but I doubt it will change from ok to superb, (more from superb to excellent) unless you have a real crappy stand. BTW, the tori also gives a more natural sound stage so you may notice the sound not as forward, but is pulled back deeper into the back, hence your issue of listening to vocals. If you want more forward sound maybe a different cartridge that has a more forward sound stage??


Hope this helps.
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« Last Edit: 08/14/16 at 15:48:18 by atacgene »  
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #23 - 08/19/16 at 19:34:01
 
Atacgene,
Wow!  What an eye opener. This sounds like the best help I've heard from anyone on this issue so far. I did send the TorrII JR back to Steve and he said it worked perfectly. So, I emailed him back and asked what source he was using so your post I think may have nailed this issue as far as the source being a big part of the problem. Also, I'm using ERRx speakers which apparently have a more laid back presentation so that must be adding to all of this. Also I do believe this amp should really crank but with the TT input, I usually have the volume set at 12 o'clock. It seems at half volume, I should really not only hear but feel the music coming at me. This is not the case though. I gotta tell you I've tried so many things and it seems not just one thing changes things enough to really matter. I did plug a Linn LP12 into my system and it did bring the vocals more forward but it still didn't seem to be the total solution especially at 4x the price of the Rega. I've got 3 different sets of speaker cables; started out with Belden then Morrow SP6's which are silver coated copper individually isolated with Teflon coating and most recently back to copper with Linn speaker cable. It seemed like the Morrow contributes to the "midrange glare" that I experience. Mike Morrow says they need more breakin. They probably have 4-500 hours on them. The Linn cables reduce the glare especially when I change out the I.c.'s from Morrow to Linn silver. But when I do that, it seems like the music is still a little masked. So, I'm wondering if what I remember you said about adding yet another amp between the phono ZP3 and the TorII will bring enlightening results. Hmmmmm. I was saving for the LP12 TT, now also another pre-amp?  I just wish I knew for sure the right answer to make this system really SING!  
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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atacgene
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #24 - 08/28/16 at 05:27:09
 
HI Rick,

Very glad that my ideas may be helping you in some way. So from what you said so far, it seems that you have 2 major issues:

1. Not enough forwardness, not punchy enough, sounding too laid back, and volume not seemingly loud enough such that you are not really engaged in the music

2. Not enough clarity, as if a layer of veil is still there

Is that correct?

For issue 1. the most likely culprit is probably the source, or near the source. Your system has almost the same source as mine with my Rega which is the cheapest type I think, so mine could be inferior than yours, though I have upgraded the end-pin/weight of the tone arm. U have ZP3 and I have no ZP3 but I have a Z stage between my preamp and the Torri Jr. I recently experimented by lowering the Z-stage to neutral (i.e. not having any gain) and yes, it sounds much more laid back with less punch. And I need to increase the preamp level a lot but it still sounds not right or as good as with the Z-stage gain on.
I don't exactly know your setup but it seems you can adjust the TT input into the amp or preamp? Anyway, try increasing the output of the source  to maximum and if you still don't feel it being right, then you may:
1. add the Z stage to give more gain, as I have done so.
2. change to very high output MM cartridge 7-8 V. It does not sound like there is anything really wrong with the TT itself as my Rega also sounds fine (though it is a bit coarse compared with my Michell) so I think yours should be decent.


For Issue 2: 1.find a great cable, solid silver has best clarity but can should harsh with some cables or system. The Torri can really tone down the shrillness/harshness. If you are interested I can tell you what type of silver I think is best. But don't spend ridiculous amount. You can even DIY your own silver cable. The phono cable from stock Rega tone arm is crappy, which I am still using on my cheap Rega. Ideally you need to upgrade it which can cost quite a bit but I was told it would have a great difference even with cheaper tonearm. I got rid of the stock tone arm of my SME tonearm and so has a silver phono cable which improves things dramatically. I think finding the right cable can really lift the veil provided that is a main limiting factor for your problem.


My gut feeling is that the Z stage is going to help a lot though since I don't know your system exactly I can't say for sure. The Z stage is really wonderful in making your source sounding great to fantastic or good to great. You can use it for your CD player to get rid of the crappy digital sound.  You can almost fool yourself thinking that you are listening to vinyl instead of CD.   Adding another preamp surely will help a lot, probably more than the Z stage but would cost more.  I just ordered the ZP3 but it won't arrive till months later so by then my system would be more similar to yours and I will see how my sound will change, and I likely will still use Z stage as I may run into the same issue you have.

Finally, the speakers, hmm may still be an issue but I am not so certain, you may need to check if your impedance. Decware web has a table to tell you how your speakers will match with their amps.  I don't think Tori at 20 Watts should have any issue with pushing most speakers but you need to check with Steve. Using mono blocks may be the solution for speakers difficult to drive I suppose.


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will
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #25 - 08/28/16 at 18:31:21
 
I have no experience with turntables over the last 25 years or so, so can't remember about them, but what keeps coming up in this thread is more voltage source to amp. Steve and atacgene both point this way, one suggesting a different cart, the other the Zstage.

The Zstage, CSP3, and the output transformers on Steve's DAC, all are adjustable and can easily add voltage to the source output. More quality voltage equals more power, weight and clarity. So increasing output makes sense, especially with very low output from the cartridge. Question becomes, is something wrong with the stylus, cart, wiring, connections of the TT, weakening the signal. Slurred voices do not make sense with a Torii if the signal is right.

Though improving cables, isolation, etc, are always important, seems to me your gear/cables are decent enough to give really good sound. And Steve has checked out the Torii and it should match well with the ERRs. (I guess you have played with the impedance switches to get the sound you like best?)

That your CD player "has balls" is your most clear pointer, giving strength to increasing TT signal voltage source to amp, or that there is something else wrong with the TT.

As an aside, the SP6 I had took longer than 600 hours to clarify and refine top and bottom....but the thing that keeps coming up for me, is the CD is OK and the TT not.

atacgene's idea of cranking the amp fully and using the pre for volume will be an interesting experiment.

Not knowing TTs I can't say, but is it possible the TT output is so weak that the ZP3/amp can't get enough signal??? Again, lack of clarity does not make sense with a Torii. Could the silly putty leave residue....could cleaning with it and abrasives have possibly misaligned the stylus or messed with stylus or cantilever connections....stylus weight...have you cleaned your connections lately....just wondering if there might be something weakening the signal related to the stylus/cart/arm/output connections or wires...the ICs?

Just for interest sake, if you have not cleaned connections lately, if you do it all from source to resistor/cap connections on the ERRs, cleaning and tightening.... I am always amazed when I remember to do this...like getting a better set of cables.

I feel for you, but since the CD is relatively good in the problem areas you are having with the TT, looks to me like you will figure it out!

Wink
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« Last Edit: 08/28/16 at 18:37:56 by will »  

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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #26 - 08/28/16 at 19:13:04
 
I think you should find a loaner TT to try.  I have a 40+ year old Pioneer PL-10 that I can substitute in my system and with all of its "crappy" wiring, cables, tonearm, etc., I don't get an earth shaking change in sound with it compared to my tricked out Technics 1200 and MC cart.  Even if you only swap cartridges you might learn a lot!
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mark58
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #27 - 08/28/16 at 19:38:43
 
OK,  I've quickly skimmed the thread and I'll chime in a bit.  Many good suggestions have been given as I would expect.  Your problem is definitely in the TT chain not with the Amp.  The Rega Cart, if functioning properly, is not the problem...it is a MM with a relatively high output...even higher than the Ortafon suggested.

Something no one has mentioned is the Phono Stage/preamp you are using.  The Art DJ II while great for the money can't be expected to produce true Hi fidelity results for less than $50.  This may be the problem.  Also, if I recall correctly, it has several settings, including a gain adjustment...to cut or boost gain.  I think you should play with the settings on the Phono pre...read the instructions and see what you get.  Your problems will likely disappear once a ZP3 is in place.  If not, you can add a Pre Amp or Z-Stage for more gain and flexibility.  I have a CSP3 and love it.  Hope this helps, Mark.
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« Last Edit: 08/28/16 at 19:39:36 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lin
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #28 - 08/28/16 at 21:04:02
 
He already has a ZP3. Wink
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mark58
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #29 - 08/28/16 at 21:31:22
 
Ok, I skimmed again and indeed sometime in July the ZP3 was in the chain.  Not sure what's going on but plenty of people run their ZP3 straight into their Decware Amp...some with lower WPC than yours, without issue.

I think a loaner TT might help isolate it to your TT, as someone suggested previously.  The tubes in your ZP3 are all new?  You bought it new from Steve, right. Good Luck, Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #30 - 08/29/16 at 00:51:17
 
I recently bought a new Mullard 12AX7 for my ZP3 that was defective.  I had some weird sound issues with it.  So, if you haven't confirmed good ZP3 tubes, that might be another good place to "start."
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will
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #31 - 08/29/16 at 14:34:26
 
Seemed to me that if the problem was specifically with the TT signal path before the ZP3, that would likely rule out Torii tubes. And if it remained the same after adding the ZP3, that would seem to rule it out also? But, I agree, tubes with minor distortions can be confusing.
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Lon
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #32 - 08/29/16 at 14:47:57
 
It doesn't make that much sense to me as I have a similar turntable, ZP3 and the Torii Mk III and don't have the same sonic results. I know the Rega interconnects don't compete with the best but I've been impressed with their sound. The ZP3 makes the sound come alive compared to other phono preamps I've used.

Perhaps the differences in my system are cabling and power treatment. I did find that silver-plated copper speaker cables had a harshness that all copper doesn't seem to, but there are other cable construction differences too, it might have been insulation, etc.

System differences are fascinating, and room and listener tastes and perceptions add layers of fascinations and difficulties for advising and recommendations. . . .
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #33 - 08/29/16 at 17:56:29
 
Well I did send the TorrII Jr back to Steve to evaluate and he said it worked perfectly. So, in the next couple of weeks I'm going to get on loan from the HiFi store pretty much a complete system so I can try swapping things out 1 at a time to see if I can hash this out. It just beats the crap out of me that this stuff is so finicky. But I'm hoping in the long run once I get a system that has all the kinks out, it should sound AMAZING!
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Syd
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #34 - 08/29/16 at 18:21:53
 
Just a kind of thought Rick as to the sound of my gear, and that of probably all Decware amps. It`s not Hi-Fi. I`ve revisted Hi-Fi recently and the flattish, punchy,  non depthish sound isn`t like the Decwares. The bass doesn`t breath either. Its a long way off.
I`m new to the audiophile sound thanks to Steve & co. and once the initial shock is over you can experience the full picture of unforced music.
Loudness and volume were also a learning curve.
You may have, or I did for sure, at first wanted a louder sound, or loud enough for people to ask you to turn it down.  
It`s soooo subtle.
You think it isn`t loud but the scale will tell you different, it`s big.
Yes, I guess as you move up the watts scale you will get `louder` as a `starting point` so to speak. Bigger rooms will/might need it. Thats when the different power valves and push/pulls do their stuff.
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« Last Edit: 08/29/16 at 18:47:51 by Syd »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s , Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #35 - 08/29/16 at 21:12:14
 
Yeah Syd I get the Decware sound. I don't need the music to be kicking it I just want to hear things so they are crystal clear. Right now there's still a smear or glare or whatever it is and I don't think it should be there. I'm pretty sure everything is broken in at this point and from what I've discovered so far it seems like it may turn out to be several weak links. I can tell you when I compared the Linn TT to the Rega, things got cleared and more forward. You could actually hear when there were two vocalists each individual voice. With the Rega it was hard to discern the backup vocals. So there's definitely some detail missing here and hopefully I can determine what the cause is.
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #36 - 08/30/16 at 16:31:54
 
Quote:
I can tell you when I compared the Linn TT to the Rega, things got cleared and more forward.


Rick,

I may have missed something in this thread but if a different TT cleared up the problem then what is the question?  Wouldn't the Rega cart be the suspect?
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #37 - 08/31/16 at 18:11:17
 
Archie,
The problem was when I was at the HiFi store with all my gear, everything was replaced 1 piece at a time and each piece was left in the loop and there were subtle changes that occurred. The TT was swapped last and there was yet another improvement in sound. I didn't want to take up their time by putting the Decware gear or cables back in 1 by 1 because that would've taken All day. So, I'm planning on taking their gear to my home over the weekend when I can in the near future and devoting the entire weekend to swapping things in and then back out 1 by 1 to see which individual pieces clear up things. As I've said before, I don't think it's as easy as just 1 thing that will clean up the sound. I'm also giving the Morrow cables the benefit of the doubt by burning them in even way more than I thought would be necessary. Once I'm at the point where I feel I'm way over 500 hours on them, that's when I'll do the testing with EVERYTHING to see what will make the most overall improvement. It's easy to be fooled when you are in the store environment so hopefully bringing their gear home will allow me to tak my time and come up with an unbiased opinion.
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #38 - 08/31/16 at 19:30:41
 
Rick,

I got the impression that what you are hearing is fairly obvious and not particularly subtle.  For the subtle things I generally only notice them when I've eliminated something, i.e., improved the sound.  I am convinced that the biggest improvement with a TT will come from better isolation.  A TT is a very simple device in concept (cart excluded).  It needs to spin the record at a constant speed with no added vibration (noise).  The problem comes in with all of the harmonics of the various component pieces -- tonearm, dust cover, platter, etc.  If these get to vibrating, which they will without isolaton, distortion and/or coloring of the sound has to occur.  I've been following the recent release of the new Technics 1200 TT that costs $4000 as compared to the discontinued 1200 at more like $500.  The biggest difference that I see is the improved vibration damping and isolation.

If you are sure that your TT is operating within specification and you have really good isolation then you may need much better equipment to be satisfied.  Lon seems to have improved his Rega quite a bit but once again, I think his enhancements feed directly into vibration control.

If you do decide to change your TT, I hope you will seriously look into the direct drive Technics.  Even stock, the originals are giant killers, however when modified, many put them up against some ridiculously high end TTs.

Lastly, for me, cables and tubes are all pretty far down the line sonically when compared to the source, amps and speakers (and probably room treatment if I could do that).  I know there is a lot of praise given to certain cables here on this Forum but I'll bet in those systems, the low hanging fruit has already been picked!   Smiley
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Rraymond
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #39 - 09/01/16 at 19:47:50
 
Archie,
Funny you mention isolation. I have IsoPods and when I took all my stuff into the HiFi store and set it all up on IsoPods, the first thing that the guy(Tom) did was pull the IsoPods from everything. He said it seemed to muttle up the sound. Now I'm no expert by any means but I would have to say that by the time Tom was done swapping most everything out, I could hear more from the record. And he pretty much swapped things in the exact same price range except the TT. I felt my head was spinning although I know what I heard was a change in the right direction. But, I'm still not sure if my cables may have been a significant part of the problem. Another issue I've had with the Rega is noise pickup from the Decware transformers. I've since then have purchased some Giron shielding that I installed between the TT and the Decware Amps below it. This really reduced the noise pickup from the tone arm although I'm not sure it enhanced the quality of the sound much.....maybe a subtle difference. I wish Steve had his shop in Michigan so I could take a listen to everything to see if there's something that I may like better. Don't get me wrong, what I have sounds pretty good but maybe I have the same problem as all of us audiofiles, always wanting more. It seems like my setup isn't quite as full or as big as I expected. I did measure the output of the ZP3 with my voltmeter and it averaged about a half a volt and so I also wonder if that signal needs a little boost before going to the TorII Jr. Hmmmmm....
Rick
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Tori Jr., Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Mission speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #40 - 09/02/16 at 01:19:41
 
Rick,

That voltage seems about right.  With my MC cart and SUT I think I'm up to about 1 volt.  I ran my ZP3 straight into my ZMA for a while but I prefer having the CSP3 in between - more weight to the music.  Also, a CSP3 will get your voltage way up.

A pre might be something to consider once you're sure your TT is working as expected.  

If the sound is "muddled" with the Herbies then I'd say they are not isolating but "coloring" the sound.  A good test might be to try with and without "isolation" at low and high volume to see if the sound degrades or changes with increased volume.  I believe that the benefits of good isolation should be more apparent as volume, and consequently, induced vibration increases.  In my experience, visco-elastic materials are not good isolators by themselves.
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Lon
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #41 - 09/02/16 at 01:55:14
 
Actually the isolation that Rick was using is from VooDoo Audio and is a type of "bearing between two halves" approach like Stillpoints. I have been using those under almost all my components for nearly a year--and I'm getting the opposite results of muddy and muffled, I'm getting clarity and dynamics.

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« Last Edit: 09/02/16 at 01:56:18 by Lon »  

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Archie
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Re: Got my Tori Junior and ERRx speakers and Rega P3
Reply #42 - 09/02/16 at 16:46:36
 
Sorry, my bad, I didn't read carefully.

The Iso-Pod doesn't appear to isolate in the vertical plane.  In Rick's case this might be a factor -- at least at the Hi-Fi store.  Induced vibrations are site specific so taking components to a different place might not tell much about how the isolation works in their typical location.
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