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Palomino Audio Project (Read 43150 times)
Corey
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #200 - 09/24/16 at 05:24:10
 
Raven,

You wrote: "...recovered from my 15 year old CWAL bass absorbers I recently retired..."


CWALS do not ever get retired.  Bass traps are the most important treatment in a room.  Bass is the foundation of the music.

I agree, clean up your shop buddy!


Corey
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Jeff1
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #201 - 09/24/16 at 13:16:20
 
Are those the PI Audio diffusers? I tried ordering a pair since the price was budget minded but after several emails and a few phone calls I have still not been able to place an order. I ordered the Buss easy enough but the other guy handling the diffusers seems not to be interested in selling product or something. May be the time for DIY.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #202 - 09/25/16 at 23:59:46
 
Lonely Raven, A couple of observations:
Don't lay your grinding wheels horizontal like that, you are inviting cracks.
Your reloading bench is a mess, organize it up please! The brass needs to be handled carefully.
You really need to put the door on your fuse box. Haven't you watched the videos of fireballs from exposed fuse boxes. I have to test out twice a year on that stuff and I don't even plug a light into the wall at work.
A clean and organized shop is a safe and efficient shop. Put things back where you got it from and it will be there when you need it again.
Oh yeah, your box sound catcher thingy is kind of cool in a mad scientist way.

I should have figured the background would be picked through...the guys in my motorcycle forum do the same thing. The grage/shop isn't as bad as it looks. The Reloading bench is actually well organized, what you're seeing is a rollaway table parked between the table saw and reloading bench, piled up with boxes and gear...I'm trying to re-organize my garage so I can get some projects done, but every time I start working on the garage, another house project comes up and everything gets pushed aside to make room for some current project.

The grinding wheel is actually a brass and stone lamp I'm restoring - pretty cool looking...now if I can just figure out how to disassemble it so I can rewire it, install new sockets, and build some sort of steampunky cage for the vintage style edison bulbs I picked out. I love LED lighting, but I've been rebuilding lamps and using edison bulbs while wiring in Z-wave controllers so I can dimmer control lamps from my phone. (too many hobbies I know).

I'm really hoping I have no more drama this winter - I'd really love to get the shop organized and efficient, as you say.  :)
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #203 - 09/26/16 at 00:15:29
 
"Are those the PI Audio diffusers? I tried ordering a pair since the price was budget minded but after several emails and a few phone calls I have still not been able to place an order. I ordered the Buss easy enough but the other guy handling the diffusers seems not to be interested in selling product or something. May be the time for DIY."

I think that's the brand. I like them a lot, but they were a little weird to deal with. For a quick fix I like them, but I still feel a well built QRD does more for your sound since it adds some time delay to your reflected sound.

When I can afford it, I'm going to frame up the other pair and get them prepped for deployment somewhere in the house. My latest project is a fun little nested diffuser I designed and built using some poplar trim and cut-offs.

I'd like to share images,  but this Amazon Prime Photo storage seems kinda sketchy. I maybe need to go back to my old photo-storage or find another.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #204 - 09/27/16 at 18:11:53
 

I'm too impatient to deal with Amazon Prime Photo and figuring out how to use the photos in forums...it seems they assume everyone only uses FB and Twitter... Let's see if I can share these images from FB

So Here's the two devices I've finished so far. The little one is a Prime 7 QRD (I actually built 8 wells because I had the materials) six inches deep, that cost me about $50 to build from scratch.  These aren't too bad to build at this size, it's when I scale up to 2' X 4' that fins get wobbly and spacing gets wonky...especially since I want to build a QRD 19 or 29 with 1" fins and at least 12" deep.




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Lon
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #205 - 10/05/16 at 23:21:54
 
Just placed an order for the new PS Audio DirectStream Memory player, as a beta tester. Excited!
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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #206 - 10/05/16 at 23:32:36
 
I've been checking these out:

http://www.waveformsusa.com/
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #207 - 10/06/16 at 02:18:35
 

I'm *really* skeptical of their claims. I see nothing "diffusion" about these, though they say they diffuse to 16Hkz. They also say (the larger devices) they are good down to 52hz.  It sounds like they are stretching the truth quite a bit.

Do they have measurements from an independent lab?

I'm sure they do *something*, hell, I could take pipe insulation and wrap it in plastic, then in cloth and make some decent absorbers for literally 1/5th to 1/8th the price of these.

Sorry, I don't mean to poo-poo them, but I see too many red flags with these devices.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #208 - 10/06/16 at 03:33:10
 
Lonely, poo-poo all you want.  I found these online while searching out the ASC stuff.

A few years ago I went down to Home Depot and bought a couple bags of R9 (well, R-something), wrapped it in burlap, and stuck it in the corner.  It wasn't too scientific but it did the job.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #209 - 10/06/16 at 06:19:10
 
While not as pretty, I'm betting it probably worked better than these listed above.

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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #210 - 10/06/16 at 14:37:43
 
Lonely, I'm amazed no-one has created some nice burlap bag covers for R9 insulation.  You know, so they look nice.  You buy a bag, put the cover on and stick it in your corner.  I'd buy one.  Of course, being audiophile grade burlap it would probably price around $1500 per cover.

I've always wanted some of those high-end ASC traps.  The nice ones that are built to look like Roman pillars.  I've seen those setup and they do a nice job and they look very swanky.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #211 - 10/06/16 at 16:32:31
 
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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #212 - 10/06/16 at 17:56:29
 
Lonely, one more site to consider.  I like these:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #213 - 10/06/16 at 19:01:02
 
GIK makes good stuff...I've spoken with them many times in the various studio and sound forums. They seem to have a good grasp of what works.

Some of the ASC stuff is good (and just like every other broadband absorber made from insulation).

Instead of R9, you'll get more impact in less space with a "rigid" fiberglass panel. This is what most of the companies like GIK and ASC make their broadband absorber panels out of. You can also find stores that sell suede (or some other material) "socks" that you can slide over the panels yourself instead of paying ASC $150 for the same. I typically take these panels and make poplar frames around them, then wrap and staple cloth over them....I prefer the nice sharp corners of the wood frames.

http://www.acoustimac.com/oc7032

If you can find an insulation warehouse that sells to the public, you can also get the big pipe insulation that the tube traps are made from. Again, it's just rigid insulation wrapped in cloth. The ones that claim "diffusion" just wrap the rigid fiberglass in plastic or craft paper so it reflects high frequency, then wrap it in a nice cloth like Guilford of Maine (though I'm partial to Joanne fabrics 50% off coupons LOL)
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« Last Edit: 10/06/16 at 19:03:45 by Lonely Raven »  
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #214 - 10/06/16 at 19:08:13
 

A quick google - pipe insulation looks like this:



The stuff I bought to play with was just raw ridged insulation with no wrapping. It works OK. But in all honesty, it really takes A LOT of absorbers to make a decent impact on a room. (same with diffusers as well).  To completely change a rooms response, I've read it takes 25% of the wall and ceiling space to make a considerable change (again, same for diffusers).
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #215 - 10/06/16 at 19:24:11
 
One last thing, and I'll let this drop (unless you have some questions I could try to answer).

Here is why I say I'm very skeptical of the numbers posted on these absorbers, especially the very low numbers like where they say the traps work down to 52hz or 54hz.

Here is how the traps work:  Like the diffusers, the traps are taking advantage of the fact that you can have an effect on a frequency by designing for/attacking it's *quarter* wavelength. (thankfully). So, a 55Hz tone has a wavelength of 20.46 FEET. Because we can have an effect on this frequencies *quarter* wavelength, we only have to design something to work at 5.11 feet. What I'm saying is, we *don't* need 20 foot absorbers...but we do need 5 foot absorbers.

So I'm terribly skeptical that a 16" diameter tube trap placed in a corner is going to have a rolloff at 40Hz like ASC says, or have a frequency range of 52Hz to 16khz like that other brand.

Now, what we can do though, is take these tubes or panels and place them in corners where the bass puddles up. That helps some, but it takes a crapload of material to make a big difference at lower frequencies. To really get the full effect of the panels, you'd have to be that 5.11 feet from the wall(!). Suddenly your 19' X 25' room is a lot smaller! LOL

I think what they are doing is like what the homeopathic "medicine" folks do. They say this natural, organic, straight from nature product works on your diabetes or whatever...well sure, the dingleberries from a free range all hormone free rabid badger might help your diabus by 1-3%, but real insulin shots (SCIENCE!) are 100% effective. So these tube trap guys can say the devices work down to 52Hz or whatever, but if you saw actual lab measurements it has like a 2% change. So you would need so many of them in your room to actually make an impact at 52Hz, that you'd have to listen from outside. (shrug)
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« Last Edit: 10/06/16 at 19:38:11 by Lonely Raven »  
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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #216 - 10/06/16 at 20:49:28
 
Lonely, you make interesting points.  I don't know enough to say this or that about it.  I do know that if I stick my head in a corner of my room while music is on I can hear the bass overload so there is that.  I'm thinking something besides nothing would do some help.
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Jeff1
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #217 - 10/07/16 at 02:59:12
 
I took a look at that waveform site. I does list diameters and effective frequencies but the percentages at the frequencies are not noted. So at the lowest end it may be say 10 or 20% effective. With that said it could be all that is needed depending on speaker placement and sitting position. I can say in my room 2 14" dia and 2 20" dia work wonderfully. My room is about 10' x 18'. My mains are closer to the near wall and my sitting position with my sub between the mains which almost puts it center of the room. In a dedicated listening room I don't believe a sub should be placed in a corner or against a wall because that placement I think has as much to do with creating bass problems on ar with no treatment at all. By the way the room construction does make a difference ie cement wall and floor vs stud and drywall. Building traps is a much less expensive way to get results. I think I read a will back about a burlap bad of insulation which was amusing but I would think it would have a certain amount of usefulness and yes there is acoustic burlap Sukacloth which i can sell you..lol
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Esoteric SA-50, ZMA, Legacy Sigs SE w/Metro Sub, PI Audio Uberbuss, All Cables OmegaMikro, Room treatment absorbers, diffusers and tube traps.
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Jeff1
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #218 - 10/07/16 at 03:01:39
 
Sorry for the gramer and spellink I was typmg fast/ lol
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #219 - 10/12/16 at 14:52:46
 
Well, the Palomino Audio Project continues.  I am still learning as I go along.  I took the OBs to the fest and played them, but not many people heard them because I had them running before breakfast on Saturday.  I did get some favorable comments, but overall I have to say I didn’t like everything I heard.  

Here is some of what I learned.

1. The augies produced crisp clear bass with impact.  Song emphasizing bass impact did the best.    Comparing them to the imperials, they did not go as low and I’d have to give the edge in bass musicality to the Imperials.  If you have the space and like low tuneful articulate bass, Imperials are amazing.  You feel the imperials resonating in your chest.  The augies hit you in the chest.

2. The 3 watt zen monos didn’t have enough giddyup to run the augies, even though they were in a bi-amped configuration.  This was even with the crown amp all the way up (no attenuation).  The ZMA drove them with authority and I was able to really pressurize the room.  I was able to play them louder than at home because Steve’s room eats bass for breakfast.

3. Toe in matters a lot in terms of how much beaming you get out of these speakers.  Generally less is better.  We started out with them pointed directly at the listening position and that was too harsh on the source/amp configurations we ran them in.

4. Seating position matters as well.  Too far back and you are more in line with the drivers and results described above occur and as I discovered in the Lonely Raven CDApS session, it hurts soundstage.

5. I came away with the impression that all single drivers need treble control, no matter the toe in, seating position.  Especially with digital sources.  I greatly missed the DSD upsampling on my Mac Mini.

6. From a clarity and detail standpoint, the Tang Band W8 1808 is a fine quality driver, but not very forgiving.  With the source and amp configurations we tried, I give the nod in pure musicality and engagement to Randy’s Betsy baffles.  So much so that I did not want to put my speakers back in the rotation later in the day.  I will probably pick up a pair of those drivers (they are backordered several months).  I don’t know that I would want them for all listening, but they cover a lot of bases for me on low volume intimate music.  This PAP OB design does foster relatively easy switching in and out of the main driver which is nice.

So while I was critical here of my OBs, I certainly haven’t given up on them.  They just need the right source/amp to sound their best.  I think I am close to that with the DSD up-sampling and the Torii III with treble shunt.  

After the Lonely Raven CDApS session, I have been working on room treatment placement in order to maximize the “sense of the room / you are there” factor.  Last night I stumbled on to something.

I started by putting 8 diffusers in the front of the room and left two at the first reflection points and my 5 fractal diffusers on the back wall.  No improvement and maybe it took away from the effect.  Then I put diffusers in the primary and secondary reflection points.  Better, but still not there.

Then on a whim, I put two diffusers at the primary reflection point BEHIND the OBs.  I think that made the whole room fill up more and gave me the best immersion I’ve had.  I liked it so much I stopped screwing with it and just listened.  

I listened this morning to see if I was imagining it and it was still there.  I will probably check it out again tonight and use the mirror trick to make sure I have them positioned correctly.  Maybe experiment with putting them at the secondary reflection point behind the speakers as well.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #220 - 10/12/16 at 15:02:22
 
From what I learned, know, and even heard Steve mention is that absorption is the #1 thing to set up and then diffusers.  Absorption helps with frequency control and diffusers are for imaging.  Diffusers I don't think will do much for controlling frequencies.

That's what I've heard.
I've got a little of both in my listening room.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #221 - 10/12/16 at 15:05:34
 
I think those rules of thumb may not apply as much to OBs.  

I have LOTs of absorbers, but they are now in the back of my room combined into one big bass trap.  They took too much life out of the room.

With traditional box speakers, I had absorbers at the first reflection points.  With OBs, I go strictly with diffusion.
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Donnie
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #222 - 10/12/16 at 16:11:16
 
Palo, I wish I had been there Saturday morning. I would have loved to hear your OB's.
I saw the pictures of your OB's at the fest and felt a pang of remorse of not being there when they played.
I almost brought my designs up on Friday, but decided to ride my motorcycle up, and they are a little large to be strapped on to my BMW!
I'm now trying to figure out how I can fit a couple of Imperials into my fortified bunker, they will fit if I take all of this extra furniture out.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #223 - 10/12/16 at 16:16:11
 
Yeah, part of me wishes I'd have had another opportunity to put them in, even if they didn't sound as smooth as the Betsy's.  I just didn't want to get in the way of people trying to make buying decisions.

Donnie, do you have the treble cut on your Torii?
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #224 - 10/12/16 at 16:46:42
 
Quote:
From what I learned, know, and even heard Steve mention is that absorption is the #1 thing to set up and then diffusers.  Absorption helps with frequency control and diffusers are for imaging.  Diffusers I don't think will do much for controlling frequencies.


The last part of this paragraph about diffusers improving frequency response is an often misunderstood point.

If you think about how absorbers work, you'll see that diffusers also help with frequency. I'll clarify by using subs to illustrate a point, because it's painfully apparent at that frequency, what our issue is (reflections).

Let's look at it this way - why do we have bass traps?  Well, it's not because the the bass is too loud and we want to make it quieter, no. It's because as the bass bounces between the walls you get hot-spots where a positive wave meets another positive wave, and we get dead-spots where a positive wave hits a negative wave and they cancel each other out. So we place traps to try and tame those reflections so they are less damaging to the original wave. If you were outside, playing your subwoofer in an open field, you would truly hear the bass as it is because there are no reflections adding and subtracting to the source wave from the driver.

So why wouldn't this also apply to the rest of the frequency spectrum?

It absolutely does, which is why we use *broadband* traps at reflection points to deaden the reflection and allow our clever ears/brain to hear the source more accurately. We are deadening those reflections, so they don't muck with the original wave coming from the drivers. When we have strong reflections mixing with the original source, we get comb filtering...which is basically like the hot-spots and dead-spots that are so apparent in the subwoofer frequency. Except at higher frequencies it would look like sharp peaks (and valleys) in an otherwise flat response making the response look like a comb if you saw it on a scope.




So how does this comb filtering effect what we hear? Well, lets take a saxophone for example; it has a particular sound which is rich in harmonic overtones, and that gives it its particular timbre or "voice". If you have comb filtering you are shifting or changing those harmonic overtones and your sax loses it's timbre...it's flat and less believable. When it's right, it's "realistic and engaging".

So, circling back to diffusers - how do diffusers help with frequency response? Well, technically exactly the same way absorbers are, but in a less subtractive way; basically it's breaking up that direct-reflection and turning it into many smaller reflections in many different directions so it's less damaging to the direct wave. The difference is absorbers are sucking energy out of the reflections, and diffusers are keeping (most) of the energy in the room and just redirecting those reflections.

Diffusers also have the advantage of being able to add a bit of a time delay (bouncing around in those wells before exiting) to your reflected sound which at least makes your room seem bigger, if not completely making the walls disappear! That's something absorbers simply can't do. Diffusers really make the music more engaging.

TL;DR  ;D  Both absorbers and diffusers help with frequency response by dealing with reflections that damage the original sound wave.


IMHO - if I were starting fresh, I would start with absorbers to treat problems, then bring in diffusers to bring life back into the room and assist (with time delay) in making the walls disappear. *Both* help with frequency response.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #225 - 10/12/16 at 17:08:06
 
Palo,Yes I have the treble cut on my Torii. Also JRiver has a whole suite of  adjustments available to tailor the sound.
I'm really a bad person to ask about sound quality. I don't know if it is hearing or ignorance, to describe what sounds good or bad is way beyond my talents. I've spent the last 50+ years working in machine shops,riding loud racing motorcycles, shooting guns, and playing music way too loud to be able to discern subtleties that you all hear.
Saying that, I can tell when something sounds good to me, it might not be the same thing that sounds good to other people.
I could tell that Steve's room sounded much better this year than years past, but the room always sounded good to me.
I really should have some other people listen to my OB's to tell me what they hear, I really don't have much of a ego about them to take criticism.  
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #226 - 10/27/16 at 18:16:15
 
I was up at the cottage shutting it down for the winter and had some of the best listening of the year.  I don't know why, but the Rachael/DIY monoliths were really musical.

I ended up bringing that combo home for the winter and put the Rachael in the with OBs.   I had tried this before and also with a Zen amp and didn't like it.  But with the DSD upsampling in Audirvana, now it sounded pretty good.  Not as much umph as the Torii, but very good detail and musical.

So, I am running the OBs with Rachael for a while and then I will switch back.  Or I may put the monos in.  If I could get the musical sound that I got up at the cottage, I would be pretty happy.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #227 - 10/28/16 at 20:50:22
 

I'm glad you brought the Rachel down. I still have a pair of 807 tubes for you to try out, see if you like them.



I've been doing some listening as well.

https://www.facebook.com/LonelyRaven/videos/10154679831542188/
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #228 - 10/28/16 at 21:12:17
 
I checked that out when you posted on facebook.  It disappeared and then came back.  

Anyway, I thought it actually sounded good, even through my computer.  It sounded like you have the kind of listening experience I did up at the cottage.  I didn't want to come home.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #229 - 10/29/16 at 19:18:08
 
Well, I basically dragged every diffuser I have (that's assembled) into the nearly empty living room, and tried to space them out evenly to give a sense of having walls equidistant. I don't have the imaging that you have, but there is clearly more detail and I can hear deeper into the recordings...something I was missing before with all the ambient noise and lopsided room.

It makes me want to lower the noise floor even further, and makes me wish even more I had a nice rectangular room with high ceilings to work with.

All this world class gear, and the room is still holding me back. I guess I need to just keep building diffusers.

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« Last Edit: 10/29/16 at 19:18:53 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #230 - 10/30/16 at 18:31:34
 
Ok, hooked up the monoliths but left the augies going.  Crossed at about 50hz.   Hmmmmmmmm

The project continues....
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #231 - 10/30/16 at 19:10:23
 
nice
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #232 - 10/31/16 at 18:46:18
 
I am wondering if some kind of H frame with Augies on the bottom, 945s up top (sans bass cabinet) is the winning ticket.  

I can kind of try this with putting the 945s on a traditional speaker stand, but I suspect the bass cabinets add to the soundstage.

This combo is not a clear as the W1808s, but its is more musical.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #233 - 10/31/16 at 21:51:53
 

Sounds like a great experiment!

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #234 - 11/07/16 at 17:56:43
 
Well, I haven't built any H frames yet, but I did wonder what would happen if I toe'd in the OBs like I did the monos.  I had avoided toe in on the OBs in the past because it was too pericing and I found I needed to be seated a little off axis.

Well with the Audirvana DSD upsampling, I found that I can get away with more toe in on the OBs and it helped to fill out the soundstage.  

I switched back to the monos and still found the immersion to be better, but they sounded somewhat muted in comparison (sorry, the only word that came into my head).

So I guess I just want a pair of speakers with the bass punch of the augies, the soundstage of the monos, with the clarity and detail of the single drivers but with the musicality of the Betsy.  

Can anyone line me up?

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #235 - 11/08/16 at 15:53:07
 
Quote:
So I guess I just want a pair of speakers with the bass punch of the augies, the soundstage of the monos, with the clarity and detail of the single drivers but with the musicality of the Betsy.


Yeah, don't we all!


Didn't you try the Augies with the Monos? Isn't that close enough?


I was playing with my MG944, and the better I get my room, the more I'm disliking the head in a vice feel to get the imaging just right. Especially since I keep moving things around, and I'm agonzing over getting the imaging back on target for that micro-sweetspot.

I'm hoping you figure something out. I love my MG944, but the better the imaging is, the more frustrated I get when I knock it out of line.

Plus I'm still having issues getting my big 21" sub integrated. I may just need an amp like yours with DSP/X-over to make it easier to experiment with subs.

We need a CDaPS meet soon! It sounds like we need a meeting of the minds to sort things out at both locations!
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #236 - 11/08/16 at 17:10:40
 
I like the clarity and detail of the w8 1808s and the musicality/soundstage of the 945s.  Long term, I am not sure which I will stay with.  I am leaning towards the 945s.

Let me finish up these diffusers and then have you over for a listen.  You do likewise.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #237 - 11/08/16 at 19:09:48
 

Yeah, now that I'm making progress on big broadband diffusers!  

I'll need to swing by the hardware store and pick up more wood stock or just work with the MDF I have, but I hope to have at least two prototypes done by this Sunday. that would make three prototypes in 2 months, getting progressively more complex...that's HUGE.

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #238 - 11/14/16 at 19:43:23
 
I have reached a nice plateau with my system after a few changes.  I've gone back and forth with the OBs and the DIY monoliths.  While I like aspects of both speakers, I missed the detail of the OBs so I am back with them.

I have also gone to using Rachael over the Torii III, which I didn't think I'd ever go there due to the lack of the treble cut on the Rachael, but I did.  To make Rachael work, I tweaked the tube compliment, gone exclusively to upsampling to DSD in Audirvana, gone back to Decware silver interconnects (versus DIY Belden) and adjusted the settings on my PowerPlant (thanks Will).  

I am at a nice place now. I consider the timbre of the bass I hear to be a leading indicator of the sound I can achieve.  When I heard that bass timbre a few weeks ago a the cottage, I thought enough of it to haul my entire system back to Illinois to try to re-create it at home.  Well I think I am there albeit with a different set of speakers.

Just as I was feeling good about my system, I got a nice compliment this weekend.  A friend of my wife's who travels in more affluent circles than I sat down in the listening chair.  He's not in to high end, but he has friends that have big buck systems.  Anyway, he was pretty blown away and firing off questions about my source, was I playing hi-res etc. He said my system beat anything he's heard at any price (all SS, BTW).  My wife got upset because he didn't want to leave the listening chair.  Anyway, it was a nice "victory" given how much I have been fussing with these speakers.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #239 - 11/15/16 at 08:45:12
 
Hey Palo,

+1 on the preference for OB. I had loaned a friend a pair of my VMPS 626s, and I had been using my Hawthorne Audio Duets and a custom matching Hawthorne Audio OB center channel in my home theater. I got the VMPS back over the weekend, and did an all-VMPS system with a pair of 626s as front channels, a pair of 626s as rear channels, and an LRC at the center. The first thing that I noticed was that I had to give them twice as much volume to equal the OBs. And that still didn't give me the detail or soundstage of the OBs. Am I spoiled for life? Not sure yet, and I'll play around with them some more this weekend, but I was definitely surprised, given that the VMPS 626s are some of my all-time favorite speakers. (In their defense, I have to say that they are single amped, whereas, I know you know, the Duets are bi-amped. So maybe this isn't a fair comparison, this isn't about fair - it's about sound quality. I was looking to simplify my HT setup, but I may be selling a whole pack of VMPS in the near future).
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #240 - 11/15/16 at 17:52:30
 

I would love a single speaker solution - I just have yet to find one that does what I want smoothly. So I hope you have something to show me, Pal!!  :)

How's the diffusers coming along? I didn't get mine to final assembly as I've been on the road for work. I'm already working on tweaking my process for the next one to be better and easy to build.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #241 - 11/15/16 at 18:01:22
 
I think you will find it better, but I still think the monos give better "you are there."  I am giving a little of that up for the detail of the OBs.

I put one QRD23 in the room last night (unpainted) and I swear it makes a difference.  Definitely provided me with incentive to power through the second one.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #242 - 11/15/16 at 19:41:50
 

How many are you going to build?

If I don't get derailed again tonight - I'm going to final assemble my 12" deep QRD17.

I have next week off (all week), so I'm going to see if I can churn through two more QRD like yours, but 12" deep. If they turn out well, my big goal is going to be replacing all that heavy, but shallow, wood diffuser on my back wall with 12" or possibly even 16" deep QRD29.  I don't think the flutter type diffusers are doing the room much help in the front to back bounces.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #243 - 11/15/16 at 19:48:46
 
Just one more for now.  When I am done with that one, my front wall will go:

1. Corner bass trap
2. QRD23
3. QRD7
4. QRD13
5. QRD7
6. QRD23
7. Corner bass trap

Side walls:

1. inverse fractal diffuser
2. QRD13
3. inverse fractal diffuser

Back wall

1. Corner bass trap
2. Five fractal diffusers of varying heights in an array
3. Corner bass trap

I still have all my absorbers stacked up in the back of the room as a massive bass trap of some sorts.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #244 - 11/16/16 at 03:58:50
 
Those reverse fractals work great don't they!

I can't believe they didn't even think to try them. I feel the individual reverse fractals work better than two or maybe even three of the regular fractals. I've been stacking them on top of my other diffusers sideways, so they are diffusing stuff from high up in a vertical format.

QRD are still better though, due to the time delay.  ;)

You're room is going to look, and sound sexy!  We need a meetup soon!
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #245 - 02/21/17 at 11:51:40
 
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Reply #246 - 02/21/17 at 12:26:59
 
Thanks Dave. I have had my eye on those for a while. I hadn't seen a review though.   I am enjoying Ravens Betsys and should have my own pair delivered this week.  

I have been alternating between Ravens Betsys and the tang bands.  Some interesting comparisons to be made.  These will hold me over until I can afford the voxativ.

I also have been painting the heavy MDF baffles that we made.   I like those heavier baffles for bass feel.   Unfortunately I am a poor painter but they should sound good.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #247 - 02/21/17 at 20:43:46
 
P.S. Looks like Pure Audio Project and voxativ will be at Axpona this year.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #248 - 02/21/17 at 23:32:48
 
I just priced some voxativ drivers, holy sheep shit Margo!
I wonder if they would take my Grand Cherokee in as trade for 4 15's and a pair of the 190MM full rangers?
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #249 - 02/23/17 at 17:30:44
 
I really love Donnie's salt-of-the-earth expressions.

Also, he saved me from having to bother looking up the price on those speakers. LOL

Since Palomino and I are running parallel projects (and he's got my Betsy drivers), I'm going to tak onto his thread:

I finished repairing the walls in one of my two spare bedrooms, I got $90 off on an Earlex spray gun (which I wanted for multiple projects anyways, including staining my deck and hardwood diffusers), and sprayed the walls and this is going to be my new computer room.  Which frees up my slightly larger spare bedroom (10 x 12 x 8) to be a dedicated Zen Audio Room. Think, wall to wall diffusers, a pair of speakers, UFO modded Zen amp, and a chair = near field bliss (or so I hope)

I traded my Blue Zu to another forum member for his 2008 Omega 8" Hemp Cone monitors. I was going to sell my Zu and see how to afford some of the 6" Omega speakers - but honestly, money is so tight for the next year that the trade is just a better option - and this get's my feet wet with Omega (besides listening to the Decware/Omega 4").

I also got a call from Sarah at Decware that my original Zen amp (#65) was done - I dropped it off with Steve a little while back and said UFO it, and do whatever else you want. The price of the finished product made me pucker up a bit, but Steve said it's going to blow my mind. I'm picking that up next week and really excited to hear what he's done to the old girl...the amp that started me down this path when visiting Steve's house about 19 years ago!

Next Project Lists:

Projector Screen
I really need to finish building the spandex Cinimascope projection screen so I can get my livingroom theater/listening room back together. I've been without my ZMA for almost a month now...but I've been using my MG944 on my home theater receiver as L and R speakers and honestly...this has never sounded better. I almost wish I could give them up as home theater speakers, but I love them too much for two channel, and I'm trying to *hide* as much as I can to make room for diffusers!

Betsy Baffles
Since Palomino ordered some Betsy drivers of his own, I'm assuming he's returning mine and not going to build a OB line baffle. LOL. So I need to trim my baffles to their final dimensions, build the adjustable angle "foot" for the baffles (that I designed in my head and have yet to even start). Plus I have a fun paint scheme I plan on using - just to amuse myself and friends.  ;)

Diffusers, Diffusers, and more Diffusers!
I'm building diffusers for the Axpona audio show - a friend said he'd love to display my work in his room - so I'm churning out a fleet of poplar diffusers that I'm going to sand and stain and deliver to him to use at Axpona. I've already dropped more money than I should on wood, and the aforementioned HVLP spray gun. And as always, I'll try to squeeze in a few really broadband diffusers for myself to populate my home theater/listening room and probably sell off my fleet of prototypes. LOL

Lots going on over the next 6 weeks!! We are going to have some fun CDApS meets this summer!

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