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Palomino Audio Project (Read 42488 times)
beowulf
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #100 - 02/20/16 at 09:00:58
 
@ Donnie and TubeNube - this makes me wonder what kind of material VPI uses for their 3D printed tone arm. †Supposedly it's very non-resonant.

@ Palomino - speaking of single drivers and Pure Audio Project ... they are starting to use Voxativ drivers in their newest open baffle design. †I'm not sure if you've heard of Voxativ, but they make some of the best full range drivers out there being fanatical about the build quality and PAP are combining them with a unique crossover design (Leonidas Crossover) that seems like it focuses on the bass drivers and gets pretty much out of the way of the fullrange drivers.

These are the drivers and will be 95dB @ 8ohms in Pure Audio Project's open baffle design ... those specs are great for tube lovers. †This is something I would love to hear!





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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #101 - 02/20/16 at 16:46:49
 
Yeah proggrob turned me on to those drivers.  A bit expensive though.

I got some new input tubes per a post by Stone. Seem very nice so far but they. Red some more hours.  Already producing a nice smooth sound.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #102 - 02/24/16 at 12:29:10
 
Here is a graphic representation on what the Augies do for the Tang Bands. †I said 100z over on Donnie's thread, but its 200z, then the lines come together.

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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #103 - 02/26/16 at 15:08:06
 
Under the category of "it all matters," the sound in these speakers has taken a nice jump with some good NOS input tubes in the Torii (thanks Stone). †Smoother but better detail, bigger soundstage, but not lacking any punch.

Single drivers seem a lot more sensitive to what tubes you are using. †They just have a lot more speed and finesse and therefore react.

I think my next step is rectifiers.
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« Last Edit: 02/26/16 at 15:12:00 by Palomino »  

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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #104 - 02/29/16 at 14:14:30
 
I stopped by the local hifi shop today to see what they are featuring.  They like Manley tube stuff and I was hoping to give some a listen.

Instead they had some microwave sized class A amp going in that room paired with some $8K speakers.  What impressed me the most was Sony's digital player.  I haven't had time to research it but it is a FPGA based DAC with 1tb disk drive.  You can plug an external disk drive up to it but not much else.  Its meant to be an integrated solution only.  Balanced output.  

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/sony-hap-z1es-hdd-audio-player/

Anyway, the $8K speakers sounded pretty good.  Nice imaging and a nice layered soundstage.  I was not blown away by the bass.  It wasn't that tight and was slightly bloated.  What I came away with was a couple thoughts.  1. There is no replacement for displacement.  The Augies rule.  2. Why don't I have that depth of soundstage?

So I came home and started fiddling around.  

The issue I have with speaker placement is a limited size room.  I didn't want these OBs right on top of me.  With the DIY monoliths, I had a 7'2" triangle going with about 4' behind each speaker.  I tried to maintain that with the OB's but ended up sliding my listening chair back about 10-12".  So I had heard that 5' was a suggested distance for OBs from the front wall.  Given I had about a foot to work with, I slid them out.

Well, I got about 80% of the soundstage that those pricey speakers had.  I don't think the layering was as good, but most of it was there.  For $1K, these things are getting more and more impressive as I tweak.  Plus, the bass in the OBs killed those speakers.

Lesson learned is that OBs really benefit from distance from the wall - more than other speakers perhaps.

I am not sure I would go for all in one player, but if you are, that Sony at $2K seems like a good deal to me.  Nice ipad/iphone interface as well.  I will check it out again at Axpona.
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Donnie
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #105 - 02/29/16 at 22:44:15
 
Palomino,
You need to double up on the Augies! If you don't have four 15's you ain't squat!
I'm like you, running out of room to pull them forward, unless I change direction in the room or move out to the other, bigger room down here....
My wife is going to kill me.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #106 - 03/01/16 at 01:34:59
 
Go big or go home!  

I built my frames so that all I have to do is re-drill three new taller wood support pieces for the frame and I could add another level for more augie goodness.  I would probably have to add another set of aluminum bars as well but no biggie.

I am thinking my next build might be an econo version with a  betsy / 15a combo for my other system.  I'd make the baffles a little thinner/shorter so they aren't as intimidating and may achieve a little higher WAF.

The more I fiddle, the more I like OBs.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #107 - 03/01/16 at 15:46:35
 
A byproduct of moving the OBs out from the front wall is that it misaligned my first reflection point absorbers and the second reflection point QRD diffusers. †So I wondered if that misalignment was contributing to the expanding and deepening soundstage.

To test this, I moved the absorber/diffuser further back, but I also switched them up. †Now the diffuser is at the first reflection point and the absorber is at the second.

I may be on to something here as it seemed to expand the soundstage. †I need to listen some more but what I heard was promising.  

OBs may defy conventional wisdom on this point.
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« Last Edit: 03/01/16 at 15:50:28 by Palomino »  

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Lin
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #108 - 03/01/16 at 22:33:01
 
OBs may defy conventional wisdom on this (many) point(s).

Fixed it for you. Wink
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #109 - 03/01/16 at 22:40:48
 
Thanks.  It has been an interesting lesson.
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Donnie
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #110 - 03/01/16 at 23:11:13
 
My OB's are really changing my thought process also. While I'm not †going to delude myself by thinking that they are as good as my MG944's, they are pretty doggone good.
They sound so different, it is so very hard to describe. I noticed last night that the soundstage was much higher than what I am used to. Maybe I've gotten the full range driver too high??
It sure is fun messing with something without having visions of grandeur that I can do something better than the pros. It expands your vision.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #111 - 03/04/16 at 18:14:31
 
Well some more rambling thoughts.  Not sure there is anyone still reading this thread, but here's the latest.

These OB are providing me something else which is a bit difficult to describe.  They are giving me accessibility to more of my (modest) music library.  By accessibility, I mean that I enjoy more of my music when listening to them.

Here's an example.  back in 2000 or so when I was trying expand my jazz listening horizons, I got this double disk "The Jazz Masters."  It has stuff by all the notables ranging from Billy Holiday to Duke to Miles Davis, Mingus and more.  Prior to the OBs, I didn't listen to much of it, even in my jazz playlists because of the production quality.

Well, with the OBs, the "music" is coming through and yesterday I listened to both disks and enjoyed nearly all the tracks.  More of that music is accessible to me now.

I am also finding myself doing more album listening than playlist listening and I have been playlist oriented practically all of my life.  The album music is now holding my interest longer - even on the less preferred tracks.

Off topic, but as I came to this discovery, I reflected on all the ways I have done playlists or mix tapes over the years:

1. 8 track (my dad had a double deck)
2. Reel to reel.  When my dad upgraded to Musak for his store, I got his reel to reel (still have it).
3. Cassette.  I also still have my Nakamichi
4. Sony mini disk (I have this deck as well)
5. CD
6. iTunes, iPod
7. Hi Def Portable Player
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Lon
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #112 - 03/04/16 at 18:24:44
 
I'm reading the thread. Glad you enjoyed the "Jazz Masters" material! I haven't been commenting as I'm completely enthralled by my HR-1s and not tempted by other speakers or speaker types, but enjoy reading your explorations and impressions.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #113 - 03/04/16 at 18:31:29
 
Good to know you are out there Lon.  I miss the what's spinning thread being here as I check out your posts there frequently, just have not posted myself.

I would imagine most people would not go through this for a pair of speakers (OK, Donnie is an exception).

It started as a subwoofer project, morphed into an fullrange OB project, involved two prototypes, the final design, room treatment changes, speaker placement changes, tube changes, adventures in bi-amping, etc. but I have learned along the way and "think" it may all be worth it.
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Lon
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #114 - 03/04/16 at 18:37:56
 
I imagine it's worth it for what you have learned already, and the joys of discovery. I admire your ability to dedicate the time and "mind" to exploring and analyzing. And I'm envious of the "like minds" you have to get together with on occasion and share results and ideas. Keep at all of this!

I found this quote interesting: "These OB are providing me something else which is a bit difficult to describe.  They are giving me accessibility to more of my (modest) music library.  By accessibility, I mean that I enjoy more of my music when listening to them."

This has been the result of my system metamorphosis that I found most satisfying. I stopped looking for the best detail, the best sound staging, the best imaging, etc. and really tried to get my system to be "most enjoyable" to most of the music I want to listen to. The Torii Mk III, the HR-1s, the ZP3 and the PS Audio front ends and power components have really gotten me right where I want to be, and cabling has been the final stage of dialing in. . . . This could go on forever, but I'm more and more inclined to just stop and enjoy the music. I keep buying more and more music because I want to and CAN listen to it all, enjoying the listening is where we start, and hopefully end. . . . In the middle for me there was all this trying and trying and analyzing and thinking and trying. . . at times the music was eclipsed. Now the listening (and because it's an all encompassing audio and video system, also the watching) is really fun and enjoyable and I tinker less and less.
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« Last Edit: 03/04/16 at 18:47:45 by Lon »  

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Donnie
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #115 - 03/04/16 at 23:24:33
 
Quote:
(OK, Donnie is an exception)

I've been an exception my whole life. I was raised to be a black sheep and a scapegoat.
It is interesting to me that while I was doing my research on OB's, Palomino started doing reports describing his build. It was very fortuitous for me because the groundwork was already done, and I'm not too proud to copy. Lin has been very helpful also, he points out things that I had absolutely no clue about.
Being able to make something that works is really cool.
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Bottlehead
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #116 - 03/05/16 at 03:54:02
 
I'm still reading as well, Pal. I took a break from my OB experiments because my VMPS center channel came back from a local speaker maker who was upgrading the crossover, but I have appreciated hearing the results of your experiments, as it has a direct bearing on what I'm doing. For instance, you recommended moving the OBs out to 5 feet from the front wall - I had mine out 4 feet, and the extra foot made a nice difference. The sound got bigger, fatter, and the soundstage widened a little more, although I'm still not knocked out by the width of the soundstage - I'll play with that a little more. I will say one thing that I noticed with OBs (or at least with the Hawthorne Audio Duets that I have) - in my room they seem very sensitive to toe-in. I had them pretty much parallel with the front wall to start, and wasn't getting the imaging that I wanted. I toed them in just an inch/inch and a half, and the center image appeared POOF like magic. Such a small change made such a big difference, I had to go back and do it again. Sure enough, they are that responsive to position change. Pretty amazing sound for not much money in the scheme of things.

Speaking of much money, I took the plunge today and ordered a pair of FRX2 drivers from Steve. Not really in the budget at this point, and I won't really have a lot of time for a while to experiment with baffles, but I seem to have been bitten hard by the OB bug. Had to have them, and that's that. I'll report any/all progress that I make with them when I have time.

Randy
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #117 - 03/05/16 at 04:36:30
 
I find the same thing about toe in. Very sensitive but once you get it, it's good.  

These tang bands are also very tube sensitive as well. Much easier to hear differences in tubes. I just got in some '74 single wire getter reflector 6n23ps.  They took forever to get here but early signs are that they will live up to their billing.  

I am also now convinced that the Torii needs to turned up about 3/4 with audirvana with a lower output volume.  It's much much more sensitive to volume changes but I'm loving the density of the sound.

I am anxious to hear tales of the frx2s!
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #118 - 03/07/16 at 23:35:53
 
Will do, Pal. When I heard from Steve last Friday, he said that he had a pair ready to go, so no 8 - 12 week wait. So I may get to start my experiment a little sooner than I had thought. Gotta love that.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #119 - 03/07/16 at 23:37:13
 
Yeah, that's great.  good luck
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #120 - 03/14/16 at 14:23:21
 
I've been mostly listening, but I was getting a bit of midrange shout on some songs so I tweaked the eq in Audirvana.  It helped.  

I also switched back to the RCA 5U4Gs as they are more laid back that the 274Bs.  I'll listen to these for a while and then switch back.

There is so much to tweak on the Torii, I am certainly not done.

I'm getting great soundstage now.  I am also loving the bottom end.  I'm not sure I can live without the Augie/Crown combo.  I am looking forward to Axpona in hopes of hearing some 15As for a comparison.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #121 - 03/14/16 at 16:58:45
 

I thought we weren't doing AXPONA this year? I didn't get tickets, and I believe I made other plans already....
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #122 - 03/14/16 at 21:29:40
 
Sent you an email
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #123 - 03/14/16 at 22:01:20
 
Another event this weekend was my son was home and a friend from out of town spent the night.

The next day I was skipping around playing various tunes and played Gula by Deadmou5.  They came in the room because they knew the song.   I goosed the volume a little bit to show off.

Anyway, the drop hit and they just started laughing in amazement it was so full and solid.  Nice to know I can blow college kids out of the room with this rig.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #124 - 03/17/16 at 20:27:14
 

That's awesome...I think I need to come by soon with The Redhead and give the new setup a good listen.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #125 - 03/22/16 at 18:24:11
 
I will prepare a special chix mix demo playlist in her honor.  Maybe if we link up for Axpona, you could swing by early before we head to the show.

The RCA 5u4g rectifiers remain in the system and I am finding less edge using them.  I will know for sure when I switch back.  Also, I can make out bass notes even better with the 5u4gs but weirdly, they aren't as crisp if that makes any sense.  More note definition without more note detail??  Still trying to wrap my head around this one.

I also got my second set of '74 Reflektor single wire getter, silver shield 6n23ps in the mail yesterday.  Much quicker deliver from Russia than from Ukraine. And these are much cleaner NIB, NOS.  I really wish somebody else would try these and see how good they are and more importantly how they compare to other NOS like the Amperex, Tele's etc.

OBs with live recordings gets me there pretty fast.  Last night's treat was Eva Cassidy, Live at Blues Alley.  Not as 3D as the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions, but still quite enjoyable.  If anybody has other live recordings that fill the room, I am all ears, so to speak.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #126 - 03/22/16 at 19:18:07
 
I'll suggest "Trinity Revisited" again. Smiley

I don't have experience with those Reflektor tubes, but I do have experience with single wire silver shield Voskhod 6N23Ps and they are really good. I prefer Amperex and other 7308s in both the amp and preamp, but these are certainly very good and I'm sure I could build a tube complement around them that would make excellent sound.

I know what you mean about those RCA rectifiers. I liked the 274Bs (really 5U4Gs) that Steve ships, especially in the cryo'd version, but prefer the RCAs--the 274Bs are just a bit too bold and etched for my purposes. . . . And I've moved to 5V4G types myself (they work ideally with the Arcturus OA3 regulator tubes I'm using). I will always sacrifice a tiny touch of detail for the right tonal balance and doing so helps my system's musicality/bit of forgiveness to non-stellar recordings. . . . And somehow this century it's been RCA rectifiers that always deliver.
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« Last Edit: 03/22/16 at 19:22:01 by Lon »  

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #127 - 04/07/16 at 20:15:07
 
I was running the absorbers at the first reflection point again and ran that way for several weeks.  Over the Easter break, I went back to diffusers at the first reflection point.  That's it.  I'm done.  

Best 3D sound I have ever had.  I think the silver shield 6n23ps in combination with the RCA rectifiers and the diffusion is the final ticket. Ok, OK, I am doing a little bit of EQ on the Mac mini to cut shout.  Just a smidge.

Anyway, much monkeying around, but I think I got it going on.

I just bought some '75 Reflector Single wire, silver shields.  Still have my eyes on some Amprex.  Somebody stop me.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #128 - 04/07/16 at 20:35:48
 
So when can Michelle and I swing by for listen? LOL
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #129 - 04/07/16 at 20:50:21
 
Maybe Saturday.  I have to see what all my kids have going on but my wife will be out of town.

By the way I also made it to Michigan to open up the cottage.  I listened to the dna's on Rachael.   Felt kinda boxy.  OB bass is special.   I eventually got re acclimated and enjoyed listening.  I also moved the whole system up into the loft to have about 15ft behind the speakers and got good dimensionality.  Still I came home and was blown away.  

I exchanged emails with the zieg-meister about the OBs.  He basically felt they required just the right system synergy so he doesn't have interest.  I'd have to agree they are not a mass market product.  But if you are a patient tweeter, he shall be rewarded.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #130 - 04/09/16 at 14:45:18
 
First of all, I think it is pretty cool that we have 3 different OB design experiments going. †I am inspired by what Donnie and DBC have going on.

So I got up early this morning to listen before people start asking me for stuff and I came up with a way to describe my OB soundstage of late. †There is no one thing that "makes' this sound. †Its a pure synergy thing if there ever was one. †Thanks for the direction everyone has provided along the way.

Anyway, here is the best way I know how to describe it.

Imagine in front of you are a number of beach balls suspended from the ceiling at different heights and depths. †Each beach ball represents an instrument with sound emanating within its own sphere. †

Now close your eyes and with the beach balls still placed in your mind, imagine the overall space they inhabit being limitless. †The space you are in is, in and of itself, a sphere of sorts and you are suspended within it. †Depending on the song, the beach balls go to different depths from front to back.

This differs from the soundstage I achieved with horns both in terms of the shape of the beach balls (they were more like suspended flat plates) and the limitless size of the sphere you were sitting in.

So hopefully that sounds attractive and perhaps different to people. †What the kicker is though is I came up with this description without the Crown amp on supplying juice to the Augies. †Long story, but the amp is on the floor and I turn it on with my toe and just didn't notice that I didn't depress the on button far enough.

The combination of the Tang Bands putting out enough bass and the kind of music I was listening to lead to me listening to two songs before I realized nothing was coming from the Augies.

Anyway, the impact of the Augies did take away from the overall effect and the beach balls flattened a little. †They lost a bit of that defined, just reach out and tap them spherical shape. †Not terrible, but it seems a trade off of sorts - bass for 3D effect.

I am hoping that somebody that actually knows something about speaker design (as opposed to me) can weigh in here. †Is this the blending that DBC talks about in his thread? †And if so, what is the physical phenomenon that is impacting the 3D effect? †Some kind of phase smearing or something?
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« Last Edit: 04/09/16 at 15:57:02 by Palomino »  

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #131 - 04/09/16 at 15:59:37
 
Pal,

Your "Beach Ball" analogy, could not have stated it better myself. I get the same effect.

Unlike you, I'm using a more conventional Omega Monitor with single driver in a conventional monitor cabinet. My Low Frequency Open Baffles (LoFOB's) are connected to my Zen UFO in parallel with the Omega Monitors and the blend is seamless.

I did try a Bi-Amp arrangement. Zen UFO driving the Omega Monitors and SE84C+ driving the LoFOB's. To my surprise the Monitors and LoFOB's simply sounded disconnected and separate from each other. The total cohesion noted above was lost. So yes, I speculate there is some type of time smearing going on that the human ear is sensitive to when music is involved.

Even with the crown amp "OFF", you might be getting some sympathetic output from the 15" driver by simply being in the same baffle as the other driver? †I recall Steve saying he had this effect when he had a huge Home Wrecker I think it was in his old listening room. The Home Wrecker when off would reinforce the low end of any speaker playing in the room.

I think your Augies are about 88 db where the Alpha 15's are about 98 db. Have you tried simply wiring the Augies in parallel with your other driver?? †
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #132 - 04/09/16 at 16:01:35
 
FWIW I didn't keep my Augies (10" ?) very long, never could get them to work to my satisfaction with Visaton B200s.
In retrospect they may have worked better after I started using 2 B200s in a 1.5 way.
I definitely feel that a higher x-o point narrows the options on drivers that will work best.

AFAIK there has always been a conflict between low bass and the ultimate image when reproducing music in the home.
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« Last Edit: 04/09/16 at 16:01:51 by Lin »  
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #133 - 04/09/16 at 16:10:57
 
"Even with the crown amp "OFF", you might be getting some sympathetic output from the 15" driver by simply being in the same baffle as the other driver? †I recall Steve saying he had this effect when he had a huge Home Wrecker I think it was in his old listening room. The Home Wrecker when off would reinforce the low end of any speaker playing in the room."

Not too likely to cause anything audible with OB, the Imperial SO caused this because of the enclosure.
The ZOBs use the same principle to produce more bass. When designing the ZOBs Steve used a mike in the chamber feeding an amp and another driver in a separate box to boost the "free" bass.
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« Last Edit: 04/09/16 at 16:25:29 by Lin »  
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #134 - 04/09/16 at 16:11:43
 
Quote:
Steve Deckert wrote:

One of the great things about the original imperials that I had, was the sympathetic bass they produced when exited by any other speaker in the room. †Everything had great bass and you never had to actually turn the imperials on! †As cool as it was, I determined it was a problem for ME because I was using the room to evaluate speaker designs and couldn't tell how much bass the speakers really had. †


http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1277647494

See reply #4.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #135 - 04/09/16 at 16:27:40
 
I don't think its so much a frequency blend issue.  Versus subs, this is clearly the best frequency blend I have achieved and in terms of the bass being crisp, its no contest with the augies.

Its simply seem to have some impact on the overall 3D effect with the beach balls.  Certainly not a deal killer in any way, but I believe there is an impact.  I've listened to some more songs and it appears it is only evident on the songs with the very best beach ball effect going on.

I wish I had more patience to read about this stuff.  But the sound waves emanating from the augies has to be conflicting in some way with the sound waves from the Tang Bands.  The only word I can think of is smear but I have to admit, I don't really know exactly what that word means.

I have not run the tang bands and augies together due to the mismatch in SPL.  Tang Bands are a loud 93db and the augies are 88 or 89 I think.

I did run the original augie without crossover on an old Class D amp I have and thought it sounded pretty good.  That's what lead me to the class D crown.  But the crown with two augies wide open sounded pretty bad.  Not sure why the difference between the two amps.  But again, its not a frequcncy blend issue.  I think its a sound wave collision issue.  Its minor, but there.

I am convinced that OBs will sound killer in my cottage system with the larger room and arched ceiling.  I'd like to do a smaller size baffle for WAF and maybe go 10" for the woofer (I'll check to see if there is a 10" augie).  But, given some of your comments DBC, the 15A might be in the mix without a biamp situation.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #136 - 04/09/16 at 16:36:53
 
"But the sound waves emanating from the augies has to be conflicting in some way with the sound waves from the Tang Bands."

This is mostly what I understand it to be. IME the type of enclosures does not matter.

Have you ever tried the Augies with the Crown and just an inductor?
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« Last Edit: 04/09/16 at 16:39:16 by Lin »  
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #137 - 04/09/16 at 16:44:06
 
I understand the Augies are lower SPL, if you wire them in parallel you should get some output and perhaps a taste of what a higher SPL driver could do wired in parallel to the same amplifier?

I know a big factor with my LoFOB's is baffle stability. Even using 1.5" thick baltic birch baffles the baffles have to be well stabilized for best SQ (thus the heavy duty brackets I used). I just wonder with your thinner baffle if there is not some interaction between the two drivers in addition to the fact they are driven by two different amps? Just thinking out loud.

I have 2 sets of LoFOB's, 15" using the Alpha-15A's and 12" using the Beta-12A-2. I was not expecting much out of the 12A's but they really sound good in my large listening room. They do 90 % of what the 15A's do in my large room and they are just a TAD bit Faster / Crisper if that makes any sense. I could be very happy with the 12's and I bet they just get better in a smaller room.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #138 - 04/09/16 at 16:52:02
 
The Beta 12As are faster and crisper because of the lower qts and mms. Cool
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #139 - 04/09/16 at 17:29:14
 
Pal,

Just an observation. I found on my LoFOB's, having them elevated off the floor by a good 1-1/2 inches seems to let them breathe / more air. When I had them sitting closer to the floor they started to get a little boxy sounding. I noticed that your photos have the lower baffle pretty close to the floor.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #140 - 04/09/16 at 18:22:15
 
Sounds like a couple things to try.  Thanks.

I am off on another journey right now.  My '75 silver shields were just delivered.  These are supposed to be better than the '74s.  We'll see.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #141 - 04/11/16 at 14:26:34
 
Well, the 75 6n23ps were a disappointment.  One of them was DOA.  Such are the perils of buying from Russia.  The seller seems to want to make it good and has been very open in his communications.  

The one that did work had the same signature of the '74.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #142 - 04/11/16 at 20:23:50
 
Since I was thwarted on the tube front, I did re-read the comments related to blending and re-experimented with the crossover in the Crown. †I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

I think that crossing over lower aided the beachball effect, but took some of the punch out of the upper mid bass which I like. †So I'll live with slightly less imaging to get mid bass or run just the Tang Band alone on some material. †One of the things I like about this setup is that you can tweak.

Also, I finally hung the fractal diffusers on the rear wall like I meant to 9 months or so ago. †They had been sitting on the back tables and it was only a matter of time before one toppled over.

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #143 - 04/12/16 at 23:31:46
 
So I did some listening and felt that not running the Crown was a sub optimal solution, even for music that didn't have that much bass.

So I took the stepped attenuators on the Crown all the way down and then brought them up one click at a time and listened at each stop. †It doesn't have that many stops so this experiment went pretty quickly.

BTW, my test track was Bela Fleck, UFOTOFU, after the storm. †One of my better beach ball songs.

I found that that I was able to maintain the best imaging with the Crown two clicks below my previous level, but still had enough satisfying bass on most tracks. †I think the amount of bass pressure I was introducing was interfering with the other frequencies. †Just a guess.

I can bump up the bass when I'm rocking out and use this lower level for most music. †In hindsight, I am a bit of a bass head. †The temptation with the biamped augies is to crank it up because this configuration so crisp and clean.

So the OB journey continues, but I have reached a nice plateau listening wise. †
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« Last Edit: 04/12/16 at 23:33:22 by Palomino »  

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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #144 - 04/12/16 at 23:53:54
 
Palo,
I'm hoping that the two 15"s in each of my OB's will satisfy my need for bass. Hopefully the need for bi amping will be mitigated. But, sometimes more isn't better.
Time will tell.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #145 - 04/13/16 at 02:27:05
 
I think you will have plenty of bass.  I think the crossover is going to be more important for you.  Does your Torii have the bass control or does it pre-date when Steve started adding it?
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #146 - 04/14/16 at 15:32:25
 
Dear OB Diary:  Day 4, no tweaks.  I haven't gotten out of the chair to approach the system other than to turn in on and off.  Nervous but thrilled with the current sound.  Must. resist. tweaking.

It was about a year ago that I saw the Pure Audio design at Axpona and around 4 months since I started down this path.  Have I arrived?  

Maybe.  

We'll see how my system fairs versus the big boys at Axpona.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #147 - 04/19/16 at 19:01:40
 
Days without a tweak: 0.

I came back from Axpona with a few thoughts and my actions/plans to improve.

First of all, to compare what I heard at Axpona to what I hear in my room is a bit unfair.  I have a fairly well treated room which makes all the difference in terms of imaging.  These guys are setting up in a cement sarcophagus and canít tote large room treatments to compensate.  They canít even pull their speakers out from the wall for depth of soundstage.

So in terms of depth of soundstage, only the modo speakers in the mondo rooms came close to what I have.  Those who ran the smaller rooms lengthwise with the speakers on the long wall with 3-4 feet space behind the speakers did better than those that ran the speakers against the shorter wall.  But generally, no Bueno.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well my mids and highs compared to the expensive stuff at the show.  I have my concerns from time to time (track to track) on the glare factor; the more expensive speakers I heard even had issues on some tracks.  

That left bass.  I can categorically say that I did not hear tight, musical, impactful bass like I have with the Augie/Crown setup in any of speakers I heard.  Not to stir the pot too much, but two of the OBs I heard are Eminence 15a based and it was not as tight or as impactful.  The Spatial OBs were musical, but were not as tight and didnít have the impact.

That said, when I came back I did "up" the attenuators on the Crown because other box speakers had more of a fullness to them.  I know I sacrifice imaging here, but the beauty of the bi-amp design is you can easily tweak the bass level for the kind of music you are listening to.  I can also experiment with the crossover point, but I keep coming back to the same level so I think I am good in that department.

The other area where I really think this design needs work is baffle thickness.  The Spatial OBs are 2.5Ē of thick dense MDF.  Those bad boys didnít seem to budge.  I think I am losing a lot of energy with my thin baffle/metal and wood support system.

So if I can find some longer furniture bolts, I could double up the baffles with some material and make it at least 1.5Ē.  I could route the driver hole in the backing material large enough to allow me to not have to re-drill the driver mounting screws on the existing baffles.

All in all, its hard to be objective on something you built, but toe to toe, my speakers held up really well.  And in my room, I am not left wanting for much.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #148 - 06/05/16 at 14:29:42
 
Well, my adventures in OB land continue.  There have been ups and downs.  Clearly the OB route is not for the setter and forgetters.  The one consistent has been the imaging and very open sound, which is why I went this route in the first place.

Most of my experimentation has been with input tubes.  I have found for each set of input tubes, I need to tweak settings on the Torii.  Some tubes are simply too aggressive.  Others too dull.  

The Mullard NOS 6922s provide the richest, smoothest and balanced sound to date.  With these, I have the bias switch to the back position, the treble shunt about 60% open and now I run the bass nearly full on.  Long story, but having heard Robís OBs, I felt I was missing too much information in the lower mids/upper bass. I pick up a little more of this with the bass nearly full on.  I have backed off the Crown a couple notches to allow for this.

I also am now pretty set on using NOS RCA 5u4g rectifiers.  The 274Bs are too forward.  I do like them on some music.

I studied the REW response curve and do apply a little EQ to lower the upper mids.  Also there is a hump around 100hz that I smooth as well.

I did try some Western Electric 10GA from the Crown to the Augies.  I really like the smooth, musical tone of the 16GA on the Tang Bands 1808s.  Unfortunately, the WE 10GA on the Augies did not pan out.  The bass is too mushy and blurred.  I went back to the Styx wire which I feel is very dynamic and punchy.

I am going to live with these speakers for a while, but I would like to try a larger format full ranger like an AN15 at some point.  

I could also get crazy and add another Augie to each side.  Having heard Robís Hawthorne Trios, that extra bass can be amazing.  Iíd probably have to start over with new wood and reduce the size of the baffles to fit 3 in.  Not a walk in the park but not overly difficult in the Pure Audio Project style setup.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #149 - 06/06/16 at 18:47:36
 
with two 15" Augie's per side (4 Total) in my modified Trio's, and the 2500 Crown driving them, I simply cannot ever imagine wanting more bass. †I think this setup will lift our house off its foundation if I wanted to. †When I first got the Crown, I had some "integration" blues with my full-range crossover-less drivers as well. †I just couldn't seem to get the sound where I was "comfortable" with it.
I had an external electronic xover sitting around that has a lot more xover parameter flexibility/adjustment than what is provided built-in to the Crown. †So... what the heck, I installed it. †Normally, I am a "purist" and would have poo-poo'd adding another box, but there is no doubt that the external xover got me where I wanted to be. †I now have the Crown in Stereo bypass mode being feed by the low pass output of the external xover. †I feed my full-rangers a "full range" signal directly from my Torii - no high-passing thru the xover. †I sense no "blend" or integration problems anymore.

Pal - have you tried swapping phase on the Augie's to be opposite of the full-ranger? †Sometimes that will have profound effect on the overall sound - depending on..... it's worth a try - cost nothing to try.
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