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Mini Torii as pre amp? (Read 8393 times)
grinnell
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Mini Torii as pre amp?
09/11/15 at 02:47:04
 
anyone use the mini torii as a preamp?

love the sound but i could use a few more watts

add a neutral amp?

I have a Grommes PHI that is designed to by used as a int amp, pre amp or head amp
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #1 - 09/11/15 at 11:33:53
 
I know of someone who has been using it as preamp with another SET tube amp, very successfully. He said the SET sounds very good by itself but when coupled with the Mini as preamp the sound is definitely better (body, weight, presence, etc.). I haven´t heard the Mini in this context myself yet, but I definitely trust his impressions. I guess it is not much different than having an CSP3 drive another amp.

BTW, does anyone know if the signal coming out of the Pre-Outs in the Mini carry the signature of the output stage (output tubes and output voltage regulators) or just the preamp stage (input tubes, input voltage regulators and rectifiers)?
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« Last Edit: 09/11/15 at 11:41:26 by Fireblade »  

Toshiba-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct-WD 2.0Tb HDD-Schiit USB cable-Schiit Yggdrasil DAC-Decware Silver Ref IC's-Decware Mini Torii SE-8PR Kimber Kable spkr cbls-Decware DM945's-Tekton Lore 2-Velodyne DLS 3500 SUB-BJC SUB Cbls-Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf-Jellyfish S
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #2 - 09/24/15 at 12:43:01
 
Just an update on the topic: I am now using the Mini Torii as a preamp myself, driving a SET amplifier, and the combination is wonderful, better than each amp by itself. No details missed and yet more sound body and presence, not to mention an effortless, higher SPL.

I've always stayed clear of adding components to the signal path, for fear of clogging up transparency. I can attest now that with the right components the combination is great. I imagine the CSP3 would do the same for any small power Decware amp.

Just my $0.02.

System:

- Toshiba 64b laptop @ 6 Gb RAM
- Foobar 2000
- Belden 1800F XLR Cables
- Decware Z-Bit
- Decware Silver Reference IC's
- Decware Mini Torii amp
- Vampire IC's / BJC LC-1 IC's
- Dennis Had's Inspire SET amp
- Kimber Kable 8PR speaker cables
- Velodyne DLS 3500 SUB


Next project: USB Regen and Auralex Isolation platforms
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« Last Edit: 09/24/15 at 13:24:19 by Fireblade »  

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seikosha
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #3 - 09/24/15 at 15:37:23
 
Hi Fireblade,

How does Dennis' amp compare to the Mini Torii.  Sounds like you prefer it if you are now using it instead of the Mini.  Also, what's the tube compliment in it?
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Mini Torii, SE84CKC, Omega Super3XRS, Oppo95 as Transport, Shiit Bifrost UBER Dac, PS Audio P3 Powerplant
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #4 - 09/24/15 at 17:55:18
 
Hi Seikosha,

Both amps are excellent, but yes, I prefer the Inspire.

It currently runs Gold Lyon KT88's and a Sophia rectifier plus either a Tungsol 6NL7 or a NOS JAN Phillips 6NS7, which I alternate while I wait for a stash of more exotic input tubes and an '80' rectifier to be able to run my RCA 6V6 G ST's on it. That stash also includes KT77's.

I have not had a chance yet to run the Inspire on my several 6V6 GT's, but I'll be doing that soon. The KT88's sound wonderful anyway, but I'm told the 6V6's can really sing in this amp.
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seikosha
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #5 - 09/25/15 at 18:12:46
 
Thanks Fireblade,

So how does the sound of the two amps compare/contrast with each other?
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Mini Torii, SE84CKC, Omega Super3XRS, Oppo95 as Transport, Shiit Bifrost UBER Dac, PS Audio P3 Powerplant
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #6 - 09/25/15 at 21:05:03
 
In my perception, given my setup, I would say the Inspire is more resolving, tangibly so. So far I've only used the KT88's and not the best input tubes, so I expect it to get even better when my stash arrives. Besides, the amp has worked for about ten hours only (I plan to change that during the weekend).

I will also be able to listen to the Inspire running 6V6's this weekend, which may be a fairer comparison.  I think in the end, running it with the Mini as a preamp is the best configuration, but the Inspire is great by itself right out of the box.

I'm having issues with my Z-Bit which has not performed as I expected with either amp, but especially with the Inspire, for some reason. I'll give the Z-Bit a try again during the weekend.
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #7 - 09/29/15 at 11:46:37
 
Final update:

The ZBit is working fine, except it needs to be dialed-in at almost the max limit to assist the amp reach an acceptable SPL. If the Z-Bit can go as high as 10 volts and it is receiving 4 Volts from the XLR intputs on my DAC, it seems to me there's some kind of impedance issue or something forcing it to go close to those 10 Volts before supplying a decent signal level to the amps I plug it to.

Given the described scenario, it is impossible to ride the gain between the Z-Bit and the amp, as suggested on the Z-Bit's literature in this site, in addition to having to always maintain a sound that is on the thick side, with predominance of the Z-Bit's signal in the mix (the amp can just go to a certain limit before clipping, so there's no leeway to alleviate  this unless the Z-Bit were capable of providing a signal that allows normal SPL when setting both devices reasonably away from their max limits.

System:

- Toshiba 64b laptop @ 6 Gb RAM
- Foobar 2000 running USB ASIO or WASAPI Event Mode
- Schiit Yggdrasil DAC
- Belden 1800F XLR Cables
- Decware Z-Bit
- Decware Silver Reference IC's
- Decware Mini Torii amp
- Vampire IC's / BJC LC-1 IC's
- Dennis Had's Inspire SET amp
- Kimber Kable 8PR speaker cables
- Decware DM945 / Tekton Lore 2.0 speakers
- Velodyne DLS 3500 SUB

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« Last Edit: 09/29/15 at 11:53:17 by Fireblade »  

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Lin
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #8 - 09/29/15 at 23:17:32
 
ZBIT Design Notes
"The output from the RCA jacks is fully adjustable from 0 to anywhere between 3 & 10 volts ~ basically the full output voltage of your balanced component."


The ZBIT adds zero gain.
It can only attenuate the signal
4 volts in = 4 volts max out
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« Last Edit: 09/29/15 at 23:17:58 by Lin »  
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #9 - 09/30/15 at 12:26:05
 
I know, that is why I can't understand why the SPL is so low, requiring the maximum setting on the Z-Bit and the amp to meet the normal SPL from my system. I did not say voltage drop, just meant signal drop, which is quite different. Going through the Z-Bit seems to make the signal so weak it needs to be boosted up by both the Z-Bit and amp to the limits. No way to combine the sound tweaks between both devices (I should not have called it 'riding the gain', but the concept is similar) as advertised in the Z-Bit literature, as both are close to their limit to have a normal SPL.  When I by-pass the Z-Bit, the same SPL comes out at a fair level of volume dial reserve in my amps. This also brings possible headroom and dynamics compromise. I hope this makes it clear?
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« Last Edit: 09/30/15 at 12:32:58 by Fireblade »  

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Lin
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #10 - 09/30/15 at 18:20:42
 
You post:
"something forcing it to go close to those 10 Volts before supplying a decent signal level to the amps I plug it to."

I post 4v in 4v out maximum.

You post:
"I know................"

Huh   If you know why did you post about having 10 volts????

The Inspire amps are designed to be used with an active preamp according to Mr. Had (yes I purchased one new from him; no longer have it)

Your posts are usually as clear as mud to me and you treat me like a serial killer after I try to help, so I normally stay away from your threads.


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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #11 - 09/30/15 at 18:43:35
 
You have a terrible psycho-trauma you need to control  I really feel sad about you  ...

Both amps behave the same. No active preamp necessary if you have a DACT potentiometer in that amp, like I do. So, sorry, you don't know much about it.

The signal is somehow limited when going through the Z-Bit as reflected by both amps, so call it how you like ... and please stay away from my threads!
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« Last Edit: 09/30/15 at 18:47:56 by Fireblade »  

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Lin
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #12 - 09/30/15 at 21:55:30
 
I know a lot more than you about how stereo kit works (your posts prove it).
You know nothing about me.

I would talk to you face to face the same as I post.
You would not talk to me face to face the same as you post.
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« Last Edit: 09/30/15 at 22:07:23 by Lin »  
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Donnie
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #13 - 09/30/15 at 22:27:08
 
Cage match! Cage match!
My money is on Lin, he is a strong looking man.
Plus he is right.
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Owner of the infamous RED TORII
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #14 - 10/01/15 at 11:42:32
 
Hey Psycho-Lin, I've never claimed I knew anything about this topic, only what I have experienced first-hand. If you have an issue with personal insecurities, get it fixed!

My previous post talked about signal issues, not voltage anymore, but I guess that was not good material for you to slander as it is evidently your way to satisfy those evident insecurities.

I've always told you what you deserve (this time around is NOT the first, as you remember), so why in H* would you dare to say I would not tell it to you IN YOUR FACE, you Psycho?

Donnie, you seem to only come out of your rock when there's an opportunity to pick on someone in a matter not related to you. This is not the first time ... GET A LIFE!

Finally, I'm in this forum to learn what I need in order to further enjoy my music. This, to me, is the whole purpose. I'm frank when I provide both positive feedback as well as describe sound issues with my system to try to find out a solution. I'm too educated to abuse people around just because they are not in agreement with me, but I won't stand for stupid, abusive, senseless and undeserved remarks, whether you like it or not!
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« Last Edit: 10/01/15 at 12:47:54 by Fireblade »  

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Lin
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #15 - 10/01/15 at 12:31:43
 
Grin Grin Grin

You need to fire your analyst, he's not doing you any good.

I posted in a kind way a couple of times before to help you and you found out that what I told you was correct, but yet you still attack me saying totally off the wall things about my personality like you are an expert about my mental state and "issues" from a few posts on a forum. I don't have an such problems with anybody else on any other forum, at shows, or friendly meets. Even though not everybody agrees on everything, nobody talks to others in the manner you do on this forum.

I only posted this time after I waited and saw that nobody was pointing out your obvious misunderstanding of how the ZBIT works.
Sorry if I was mistaken that you would like to have correct information to help you on your journy. Myself, I like to get input from others, in many areas of life, that may help me now or down the road.

My statement about you saying rotten things to my face (or people in general) had nothing to do with beating someone up as it were, but was about the lack of fellowship because of treating people like that.


Smiley
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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #16 - 10/01/15 at 15:05:27
 
Suffice it to read your outrageous first message again this time around ... If you can justify such approach, that is evidence of your problem.
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« Last Edit: 10/01/15 at 15:08:23 by Fireblade »  

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jorgen
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #17 - 02/01/17 at 20:19:23
 
Well uhmmm... back on topic... I will receive a pair of zen Mono amps by the end of the month. I was planning on using them without pre but realized today that these amps only carry one input. I use both a dac and zp3 as source. I of course start planning a pre-and, but need to know more if I want to use MT as pre.

Does tube compliment matter? Do I just connect mono blocks to preout, just like that? How do I set volume? From pre or? I know I have read a lot about this subject, but ELI5 please.


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Lin
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #18 - 02/04/17 at 16:36:26
 
With my Grommes PHI-26 integrated amp you pull the output tubes to use it as a preamp only.

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jorgen
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Re: Mini Torii as pre amp?
Reply #19 - 02/07/17 at 12:23:12
 
i will check with Steve, Guess a pre is on my wishinglist... Thinking about both the CSP3 and a Transcendence Masterpiece (will have buildt though, not being a solderslinger, but would enjoy Learning)
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