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Torii with 89 db speakers? (Read 3564 times)
Ellsworth
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Torii with 89 db speakers?
04/14/15 at 02:27:22
 
I am a newbie here.  I am not in the market for a new amp right now but may be in the coming 6 to 12 months. For reasons obvious to anyone on this forum, the Decware line looks very appealing.   Right now, I am using a pair of Fritz REV 7 speakers that are 4 ohm, 89 db sensitivity.  The Preamp is a Tortuga passive (no gain).

These are not exactly high efficiency speakers that would easily work well with a SET amp.  Of the Decware line, the Torii looks like my best bet.   (I can't afford the ZMA or monos).  Does anyone have experience driving speakers of a similar profile with a Torii ?  Any thoughts are appreciated.
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alper_yilmaz
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #1 - 04/14/15 at 13:05:28
 
Hi Ellsworth,

TORII should be fine to drive those speakers.  I used to run my TORII mkII through 91dB - 8 ohm B&W DM630 speakers with relatively more complex crossovers.  When I tried to run it with 87dB ProAC D28s, I had some clipping.

A night-time listening experience should perfectly fine, but it would not be party-level volumes during the day time...

Best,

Alper
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Lon
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #2 - 04/14/15 at 13:27:07
 
If you can't afford a ZMA or the big monos (join the club!) the Torii is your best bet. I agree with Alper's assessment.

Welcome Ellsworth! One of my favorite musicians has Ellsworth as a middle name, Charles Ellsworth Russell, best known as Pee Wee Russell. Then there is the Deadwood character. Those are the only Ellsworths I've known about!
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HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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Ellsworth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #3 - 04/15/15 at 00:57:44
 
Thanks for the welcome and the replies.  Ellsworth is my favorite character from deadwood but I also love Pee Wee Russell.  I didn't  realize that was his full name.

The Torii would probably work but it sounds like I am right on the border of what they can easily drive..    I like these speakers a lot but would probably be better off moving to ones that are easier to drive.

The other option is to wait until I can save enough for monos or the ZMA.  These seem like they would be amps that I could hold on to for 10 or 20 years.
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #4 - 04/15/15 at 03:29:28
 
Glad you like the Deadwood character AND Pee Wee. Smiley

I guess it boils down to how much you love your speakers. I had the small Zen amp then fell in love with Steve and Bob's radial speakers and as a result. . . I moved all the way up to a Torii. I can't part with the speakers and the little amp just doesn't quite do them justice.

Waiting for the dollars for the bigger amps makes sense. . . if the wait isn't too long! Wink

The standard recommendation is a good one: talk to Steve. He knows best how the amps work with so many different speakers. . . he'll give you good advice.
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HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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alper_yilmaz
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #5 - 04/15/15 at 10:22:05
 
The ZMA should not be extremely different from the TORII as far as running the 89dB speakers apart from some slight gain in the headroom.  

What I would do is buy the TORII and wait till it fully breaks in.  If it does not run your speakers comfortably, I would look into a more efficient cross-over for your existing speakers.  My 91dB B&W's used to have extremely inefficient, complex cross-overs and TORII felt quite at home in running them fine.  Steve recommended me a very simple cross-over with just one cap at one point but I never had the energy to give it a shot.  This sometimes end up in a shouting speaker which gives listening fatigue, but it is worth a try.

If you are still not happy with the outcome and prefer keeping your speakers, you can sell the TORII which has a decent second-hand value and invest in the MONOs.  If you prefer keeping the TORII, you can move into a new set of speakers!  :)

Good luck...

Alper
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #6 - 04/15/15 at 18:32:14
 
Before I got my present Zu Audio Soul Superfly speakers, my Torii Mk 4 was able to drive my Alesis Monitor One MK2 passive speakers ( 88db 4 Ohms) with ease.

The Alesis $199 speakers can comfortably compete with any $1000 speakers out there.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/alesis-monitor-1-mkii-passive-monitors-...

The "secret" lies in their flat frequency response, a hallmark of simple plain good engineering design.
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Ellsworth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #7 - 04/16/15 at 02:48:13
 
Thanks again for the replies.  Glad to hear that the Torii has managed similar type speakers.  These speakers have simple crossovers and a friendly impedance curve so my guess is that they will work with the Torii.

My current amp has good resale value so I could try the Torii and sell off one of the amps after doing an evaluation (or switch speakers).

A couple more questions if I may:
1). Does the Torii run hot?
2)  if running it with a passive pre, would a Zbox be worth considering?

Thanks
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Lon
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #8 - 04/16/15 at 03:04:38
 
1) Yes, no getting around it, four big power tubes, two big recgtifiers, even the input tubes get pretty darned hot.

2) It may or may not make a big difference. . . hard to say definitvely. In general I think it may not be needed, the Torii's input stage will help many front ends imo.
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HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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Ellsworth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #9 - 04/16/15 at 03:29:19
 
My rack has 10 inches of space top to bottom but is open front and back.  Not sure if that  would cause a problem as I have no experience with a full tube amp.  My Rogue hybrid amp just has two 12 au7s and runs very cool.

It would be great to try a Zbox but my front end is pretty decent so will probably pass on it.  Thanks again for the hospitality on this forum.  It has been appreciated.
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alper_yilmaz
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #10 - 04/16/15 at 07:57:49
 
I used my TORII mkII without pre for quite some time.  It sounded pretty good that way.  Yet after I added the CSP, it crossed to a different league.  I have never tried it with a passive pre, but before investing in one, I would use it without and see if you are happy or not.  It is best to try/observe/change components one by one, IMO.

Best,

Alper
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beowulf
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #11 - 04/16/15 at 22:06:37
 
Hey Ellsworth (from SH Forums I presume?).  Welcome to the forums! Cool
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Ellsworth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #12 - 04/17/15 at 01:57:25
 
Thanks for the welcome (I am the Ellsworth from the Hofmann forums).  The heat issue might be a deal breaker.  I could possibly sacrifice part of my rack and drill holes in the top to allow for more airflow but am not sure how practical that is.

The passive vs active preamp question is one I want to explore further (funds permitting).  I have never had a good tube preamp so I am not sure what it would do for me.  Unfortunately, a remote control is essential for me so the Decware pre is not an option.  So many choices but it should be fun exploring
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beowulf
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #13 - 04/17/15 at 02:39:38
 
If you don't have rack space, perhaps an amp stand that would sit separately on the floor?  I've seen a lot of guys use that type here.

Also I don't know if you're aware, but Steve is currently designing and building a new Preamp where a remote would be an option and transformer based for a truly balanced option.

I'm a remote guy too and it is an essential part of my listening (all I need is volume), but nonetheless it is an important feature to me.  I currently use a McIntosh C220 Preamp with a Decware Taboo MK II SEP amp and its been a great combo.  As much as I only need volume, the Mac remote does just about everything you could think of including source switching, tone controls, etc.

That being said I believe Steve's new Preamp is going to be something really special and I may need to have one of those as well.
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Ellsworth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #14 - 04/17/15 at 03:09:08
 
I wasn't aware that a remote controlled preamp was in development.  Very interesting.  That could be really helpful.

I would like to do an amp stand but with 6 year old twins running through my living room, it would take about two days before they crash into the amp!  They are trained to stay away from the speakers but I would have have a heart attack if the amp were out on the floor.
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Archie
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #15 - 04/17/15 at 18:20:43
 
Given how hot the tubes get I think your twins would learn pretty quickly what "Do not touch." meant!
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beowulf
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #16 - 04/21/15 at 02:42:06
 
Yes, they would learn very quickly not to touch Dad's funny glowing box of light bulbs on the floor! Grin

But yes, I agree tubes and munchkins don't mix unless they are high up and out of the way.  Anyways, you read more about the new Preamp in development by clicking here.
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Ellsworth
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Re: Torii with 89 db speakers?
Reply #17 - 04/26/15 at 23:38:00
 
The upcoming preamp with remote might offer a very nice upgrade over a passive and give me more of the imaging and holographic sound/ presence that I am looking for.

Another option is to start from scratch and look for high efficiency speakers to go with a smaller amp or just keep what I have and splurge for the Torii.  (And erect a fence around it to keep the kids away)
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