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HR-1 Break-in (Read 14029 times)
Syd
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #50 - 01/08/15 at 20:13:51
 
Hey Archie, a little off topic `cause I`m not using HR-1`s ( if but I could ) but I slipped in the Sonic Design speaker  damping feet today and am liking them. At the moment I`m resisting the temptation to turn the volume up and compensate now that the music has lost a layer of vibration/noise.
Cheers, Syd
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« Last Edit: 01/08/15 at 20:14:39 by Syd »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s , Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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Tom W
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #51 - 01/08/15 at 20:16:21
 
Hi Mark, as Bob stated - he and I were having a separate discussion regarding the nature of sound reproduction in general: paper vs. poly cones in speaker design. To answer your other question, my HR-1s are completely stock with no modifications out of the box save that I have them up on Black diamond racing cones.

Bob - Happy New Year - quit typing and get back to building!


Cheers all,
Tom


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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #52 - 01/09/15 at 01:01:38
 
I'm liking my speaker isolation as well.  I haven't noted any negatives so it is staying in at this point.  I plan on trying different regulator tubes in my ZP3 and CSP3 to see if the base improves but I'm not really noticing a "lack" of base.  Like Tom, I don't exactly know if I am just compensating or the HR-1s are breaking in a bit more.

I am not getting the huge soundstage that Tom reports but my room is a mess and I don't see much hope in being able to tune it much.  Still, far superior to my Monitor Audio RX6s that I replaced.

I will try some resistors at some point since so many report good results with them.  Bob told me that he used Tin Foil Mundorf caps in the crossovers to complement my ZMA but that they are a bear to break in.  Until I have over 200 hours on my HR-1s, I don't think I'll know what they really sound like.  I'd have these broken in by now if I didn't have to work!
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ZYGI
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #53 - 01/09/15 at 01:38:31
 
Tom, Happy New year to you as well.

Heck I didn't post your emails and all I had to do was copy and paste, and it still didn't get done....I so hate typing these days!!!

Back to work now!!!

Archie, your resistors should be there by Saturday.

Bob Z
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All Decware amps and sources, Turning Point Audio speakers
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #54 - 01/09/15 at 01:49:02
 
Thanks Bob!  "Back to work now!!!" I hope you're joking!  It's quarter to 9.  Miller Time!   Cheesy
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #55 - 01/11/15 at 20:57:05
 
Break-in update.  The bass is coming in!  Everything is getting smoother.  I'm starting to hear/feel the low end.  Despite the solation bases I'm starting to feel the vibration from the lower end.  It's nice to know that it's not just some wierd product of coupling between my floor and speakers.
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #56 - 01/13/15 at 01:21:43
 
Bob sent me a variety of resistors to try.  I first put in 15 ohm.  Wow, really killed the upper end as far as I am concerned.  I next tried the 3.3 ohm and frankly, I can't hear a difference as compared to no resistor.  I like the way the stock speaker is sounding and right now I wont be including a resistor.  But it's nice to have the option.  It's a great tuning device.  Maybe if my ears were younger I'd need less high frequency?
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Lon
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #57 - 01/13/15 at 01:25:23
 
Well, you tried. I can't live without them myself!
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #58 - 01/13/15 at 01:32:41
 
Lon,

I have a lot of respect for your hearing!  I have too many years around power tools. Sad
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Lon
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #59 - 01/13/15 at 02:53:12
 
Well, my high frequency hearing is still fairly good, I protected it as best as I could during my band years and I used power tools for five years or so but between the ages of 20 and 25. Still, I think I have a sort of beginning tinnitus (that hasn't developed further for about ten years) where treble noise can aggravate me, I hear some treble as gritty grainy noise. My recent audiologist says it can be a sort of nerve damage. . . I can hear but some of what I hear bothers me where it doesn't others. So I find digital treble to be unpleasant at levels others don't. Don't have as much of a problem with analog treble oddly enough. So thank goodness in my case for resistors for the speakers and the treble cut circuit in the amps!
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« Last Edit: 01/13/15 at 02:53:59 by Lon »  

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #60 - 01/13/15 at 16:47:05
 
I haven't had my hearing checked since the elementary school.  My problem tends to be a plugging up with hard wax.  I think noise might cause my ears to produce wax as a defense.  The other day I was hearing a hiss in my HR-1 tweeter with my right ear but I couldn't hear it with my left!  But the real problem is my parakeets.  They like to chirp to the music sometimes and are louder than I can crank my amp!  Some noise floor I got.  
Wink
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #61 - 01/14/15 at 23:51:30
 
Well, I removed the 3.3 ohm resistors that Bob sent me to try and now I miss them!  I think I will go with the 2.7 ohm Mundorfs like Will used.  I'd like to just slightly take the edge off of the high end.  It'd be nice to be able to do it on the fly, as needed.
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Lon
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #62 - 01/15/15 at 01:35:29
 
Makes sense!
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will
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #63 - 01/15/15 at 01:51:07
 
Archie. I think with the Mundorf M-Resist 2.7, once you get used to it will sound really good without having too heavy an impact. I don't think you should have to adjust it on the fly once you get dialed in. That said, though there was not a lot of difference between the 3.3 and the 2.7, I really preferred the 2.7 here...with my cap arrangement it was just right in terms of detail balance....
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« Last Edit: 01/15/15 at 01:53:03 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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beowulf
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #64 - 01/15/15 at 06:56:33
 
Have you tried ear candling?  I had swimmer's ear when I was in the Navy from constantly being in the ocean and pool and my mom sent me some of those special candles, I cured my ears after burning a couple, but I was really surprised to see how much wax came out when doing this.

I know there are some places on the internet that speak against it, but I got to say it was very effective for myself.
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #65 - 01/16/15 at 00:19:29
 
Don't laugh but I occasionally use my Waterpic.  That's essentially what the doctor uses.  Problem is when the wax gets hard.  Then I use a softener.  I tried candling once but I didn't get any benefit.  I can usually tell when things get clogged and that's when the high frequencies get hard to hear.

I ordered two Mundorf Supreme 2.7 ohm resistors from a German seller on ebay. About $31 delivered.  Pretty reasonable I thought.
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mark58
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #66 - 02/12/15 at 23:59:51
 
OK folks,  an update on the resistor saga.  I ordered 12 values between 3.3 ohm and 33 ohm from http://www.partsconnexion.com/ .  They emailed me that the 8.2 and 4.7 ohm values were out of stock, so I'm waiting.  They were $3.58 per pair for the 10 watt Mundorf MOX versions...not the supremes...yet.  I have to spend at least several months deciding what value to use.  I'm pretty sure I won't need more than 10 dB cut which is about a 11 ohm resistor.

In the meantime, I emailed Bob Z. and he's sending the resistors Archie had...the cheaper 5 watt versions that are sent out with the ERR speakers.
I found a neat calculator that let me figure out what value resistor is needed for a given dB cut. For example...Lon's 33 ohm resistor gives him about a 17.6 dB cut...a lot.  And Will's 2.7 ohm resistor gives a 3.75 dB cut.  The tweeter is a 5 ohm value.  I've given you the link below so you can play with it. I can't imagine that I'll use higher than a 12 ohm resistor that would give a little more than a 10 dB cut but got several higher just to play.  I also bought two black aluminum Knobs for the voltage controls on the CSP3...Total...$63 plus about $10.50 S&H from Canada.  Mark.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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will
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #67 - 02/13/15 at 06:18:04
 
Thanks for the info and link Mark. Interesting the actual dB level. I would have thought the 2.7s would be less than 3.75 dB, but I am bypassing the resistor with a cap that lets through the very highs. Looking forward to hearing about your coming resistor adventure.

I like partsconnexion too.
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« Last Edit: 02/13/15 at 06:19:34 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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mark58
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #68 - 02/26/15 at 18:20:48
 
An update...I got the resistors from Bob yesterday and as it would happen, parts connection just emailed me that my order is ready for shipment.  I told them to hold it as I will be making changes.  The four pairs I have are 15, 10, 6.2, 3.3 ohms.  I tried the 6.2s yesterday in the HR-1s.  I played only LPs I remembered as being Hot with lots of cymbals.  The calculated attenuation with the 6.2 ohm resistors is about 8 dB so with the Treble cut on the Torii being about +/- 3dB, I can get a max of 11 db cut or min of 5 dB cut.

The verdict....except for the really hot music matters 45 RPM "Ju Ju", Wayne Shorter's LP with Elvin Jones going at it on the drums, all others were ok with the max attenuation but more was need for the later.  So tonight I'll try the 10 ohm pair giving me about an 11 dB cut with max min of 14 dB and 8 dB cuts.  I can't imagine this not being enough.  I'll have to listen to other LPs that I didn't find too hot...I may find that the treble cut has removed too much.  It's all a game of compromise, after all.  I'll report back.  Mark.
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« Last Edit: 02/26/15 at 18:23:02 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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mark58
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #69 - 02/27/15 at 17:17:54
 
The Saga continues...I only had a couple hours to listen in the "Cave" last night with the 10 ohm resistor in place.  I don't think I'll want more attenuation than this.  With Miles' LPs the treble control with no cut was OK but the Hot Blue Note with Elvin Jones, I preferred the max cut.  I need to play some LPs where I thought they were good before the resistors.  If I find the sound is too attenuated, I may go back to a lower value resistor.  I'm surprised how much treble there is with a 14 dB cut but when the drums are the dominant instrument in one channel as with the Blue Note recordings, there isn't much you can do.  I am surprised how this has worked though...since the volume isn't limited by the amount of treble I can tolerate, I find myself increasing the volume with a resultant better Bass performance.  I think I'm getting there.  Mark.
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« Last Edit: 02/27/15 at 17:20:45 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #70 - 02/27/15 at 17:44:03
 
This may or may not be on topic but over the years I've had my ears clog up with wax to the point where my hearing was impaired.  I would first notice that I was not able to hear my girlfriend very well.  Her voice was in the higher register.  I would think that once the treble is attenuated that it might be gone and you are trading treble for bass.  I'm not sure that I'd make that trade.

Of course we have different amps.  I am getting the impression that the Torii treble is stronger than the ZMA treble.
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will
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #71 - 02/28/15 at 01:28:52
 
With any great amp it is all relative to everything in the amp itself, and everything else in the system and room...then there is how our bodies vary, and then tastes.

With Mark's Siemens/RFT EL34s, the MKIV is really "awake" in the upper mids, but this is not the case with say Genalex KT66 in the same amp. And all the tubes can be adjusted one way or another. Not having heard the Mystery, I can't say, but I have heard a lot of Steve's amps and I don't think any are bright perse. Lucid perhaps. But all could be made brighter or darker with tubes and other things.

As to treble attenuation, it is all relative to all the many things, and again our bodies and tastes. But subtle tweeter attenuation with good resistors is surprisingly transparent and to me, not a trade-off with bass...just a refinement...that is if it is necessary in a given setting.
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« Last Edit: 02/28/15 at 01:31:24 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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mark58
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #72 - 03/13/15 at 20:54:59
 
An Update...I haven't been in the Cave as much as I'd like but I have managed to make a few decisions.  I have ordered 8 different resistor values between 3.3 and 15 ohms.  In addition I ordered the Mundorf Supreme in the 10 ohm version for current use...the others are the version below the Supremes. I thought since I will have three different types of power tubes, I'd buy several pairs so I could tweak the tweeter if needed, in the future.  

The two Quads of Russian 6P3S-E power tubes I bought have made it to NYC and should be in my Amp by next weekend...I hope.  I'll put in the 70's quad first to make sure they work then I'll store them as spares and use the 60's quad for a few months, at least.  Syd's reports have my expectations high.

The problem I thought I had after putting in several Herbies isolation products, seems to have resolved itself.  I think it's a combination of my ears/brain acclimating and re-positioning my HR-1s. Someone here had mentioned that I may be sitting in a Null zone and suggested I walk around my room and see if the Bass was more prominent elsewhere.  It was, right behind the speakers standing near the front wall.  One speaker can't really be moved back but I did reduce the toe-in so it is pointing to a spot 3 feet to the side of my head.  The second speaker, I did the same plus moved it back towards the wall about a foot.  These changes seem to have increased/improved the Bass response. And pointing the tweeters 3 feet to either side of my head, by using almost no toe-in, has reduced the Hot, bothersome treble significantly and also seems to have increased the soundstage and improved imaging.  Until the next report,  Mark.
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« Last Edit: 03/13/15 at 21:19:29 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #73 - 03/13/15 at 20:57:04
 
Good news Mark. Sit back and enjoy!
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #74 - 03/15/15 at 19:47:42
 
Quote:
... but I did reduce the toe-in so it is pointing to a spot 3 feet to the side of my head.  The second speaker, I did the same plus moved it back towards the wall about a foot.  These changes seem to have increased/improved the Bass response. And pointing the tweeters 3 feet to either side of my head, by using almost no toe-in, has reduced the Hot, bothersome treble significantly ...


Mark,

Thank you for this post.  I changed the toe-in of my HR-1s as a result and I notice some of the same improvements that you did.  I had increased the toe-in a couple weeks ago and I think the density of the music increased but I seemed to pick up some treble harshness.  I didn't link the two until I read your post.

I don't know very much about the theory behind speaker placement but I have a strong feeling that the HR-1s don't necessarily follow convention.
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will
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #75 - 03/15/15 at 20:41:28
 
Mine are pretty close together (5.5 feet maybe), and look close to straight on, but are actually toed out just a touch.

Edit: My MG944s were set up about the same....best for appearance and sound here.
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« Last Edit: 03/15/15 at 20:46:56 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #76 - 07/13/15 at 23:01:52
 
I'm playing with my HR-1 toe-in and I reduced it to zero.  It seems to have decongested the sound stage some but it is still contained between the speakers.  The speakers are about 8 feet apart center to center.

Anybody else with HR-1s doing anything outside of "convention?"  I might try toe-out next.  I can't really change the separation and keep things practical for the room.
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mark58
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #77 - 07/13/15 at 23:42:48
 
Archie, right now I have my HR-1s toed in a little bit...not directly toward my ears but to a spot about two feet to my left and right.  I have used no toe in before with good result...may do it again...each speaker is about 6.5 feet from the corresponding ear and 7.5 feet apart. I think with the omni speaker, placement is less important.  In other words the HR-1s are pretty forgiving of poor placement.  Mark.

PS...I went back and read some older posts where I outline some changes I made...resistors, toe in, placement, etc.  I should point out that since then I went with the Mundorf Supreme 10 ohm resistors though I have multiple pairs of the next lower grade mundorf resistors in many values in case I want to experiment in the future. I also added Sub Dude Isolation platforms under the speakers as well as under an Omega Deep Hemp Subwoofer I added in my listening room.
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« Last Edit: 07/13/15 at 23:58:46 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #78 - 07/14/15 at 01:00:41
 
I have about 1 inch of toe-out (looking at the bases relative to lining up the fronts) and I don't hear much difference from neutral toe.  When I had strong toe-in I had negative effects but so far I haven't found a problem with neutral or toe-out.  I do think the omni makes a big difference and seems to dominate the forward drivers.  I was hoping that I could coax the soundstage outside of the speakers though.

I'm still using the 2.7-ohm resistors and sprung isolation platforms.
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Lon
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #79 - 07/14/15 at 12:34:32
 
Archie wrote on 07/13/15 at 23:01:52:
I'm playing with my HR-1 toe-in and I reduced it to zero.  It seems to have decongested the sound stage some but it is still contained between the speakers.  The speakers are about 8 feet apart center to center.

Anybody else with HR-1s doing anything outside of "convention?"  I might try toe-out next.  I can't really change the separation and keep things practical for the room.


With my HR-1s I found soundstage best with about 2 to 3 inches toe in, and what improved it the most was the addition of Ingress Audio Engineering Roller-Blocks under each speaker, four each. I do get some soundstage outside the speakers. I'm not a soundstage width nut though and I prefer the depth between the speakers that I get in my system, that always wows me.
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HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #80 - 07/14/15 at 17:08:10
 
Lon,

How far apart are your HR-1s?  I notice that when I see them in pictures at Decware they look to be fairly close together and standing way out into the room.  Neither condition works for me though.

I ocasionally hear things just outside of the speakers.  I'm not really worried about maximizing soundstage but I want to make sure I'm not missing something easy either.

I have gone back to the neutral toe.  Something seemed missing with the toe-out.
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Lon
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #81 - 07/14/15 at 17:18:00
 
At my last place they were set up about six feet apart, about seven feet from me, and about four feet from the back wall, with a corner of a Samson rack behind each of them about a foot. Not at all ideal. At the moment due to the fact that I'm still moving stuff and that my PS Audio P5 is not powering up, they're not at all set up at my new place, and I may have to buy longer speaker wire to get them right there. . . another project to tackle after this one.

The Ingress Rollerblocks made a big difference for me, more than spikes or Herbie's Audio "Gliders". . . I also have a Grungebuster dot the size of the Rollerblocks between the speaker and Rollerblock which makes a subtle difference I think.
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« Last Edit: 07/14/15 at 17:18:59 by Lon »  

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #82 - 07/14/15 at 17:53:36
 
Do you find that the ERRs are less sensitive to placement than the HR-1s?  I'm thinking that conventional speakers might be very finicky with the hybrids next and the pure radial most forgiving.  Not that it really matters I guess.

Did your roller blocks affect imaging/soundstage much, if at all?
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #83 - 07/14/15 at 18:19:59
 
The ERRs and the HR-1s are quite different speakers, and I love them both. For small group jazz and a lot of classical the ERR are just wonderful. They fall a little short in hard rocking and very orchestral pieces, the HR-1s excel at these with their front-firing drivers.

Yes, the ERR I find are less finicky about placement, but by the same token there are definitely great spots for them in a room and some not so great spots. The Rollerblocks I found helped in all aspects, I was very surprised by how they shape the sound of the speakers as I did not like them under components. Everything just seems more spacious and the tonal balance is more natural. Imaging and sound staging. . . well the latter is not my real forte, I'm less and less interested in that aspect, but the Rollerblocks seem to have helped.
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HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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Archie
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Re: HR-1 Break-in
Reply #84 - 08/29/15 at 19:16:54
 
Now that my HR-1s are well broken in I decided to take out the 2.7ohm Mundorf Supreme resistors from the tweeter.  I thought I might get more sparkle in the high end.  Honestly I don't hear much difference.  Certainly I don't miss the resistors.  My ears are old and I likely don't hear well into the high frequencies anymore and the tweeters might have tamed up a bit.  Anyway,  I am very happy running the stock HR-1 configuration at this point.  (ZP3 into CSP3 into ZMA with Decware silver interconnects and solid silver speaker cables.)
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