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Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet? (Read 61257 times)
stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #350 - 02/28/18 at 15:28:37
 
Hi Norm, you being an Ediswan input and premium Telefunken inverter guy too..... .

As you know the KT66's with the Ediswan's have some stronger bass. However, when I use the Mullard's as inputs....more detail comes through the pushing out on the KT66's. I also, like the extended top end treble, the sparkle present with the Mullard/KT66 combo + midrange to die for that trumps the Ediswan's.
NOTE: My Adagio Tweeter's are capable of more clean/musical treble output....than the HiVi Swan Tweeter found in the Monolith's, ERRx and HR-1's.
Mr. Lee's in-house/California-USA made Tweeter is truly remarkable (+the German made under-hung woofer's made to his specifications and the extremely well executed Transmission Line).
However, the Ediswan's still have their place...and why I won't part with my two pair.

Now, Edi's with the 6P3S's are good...but the Mullard's with the 6P's....treasure trove so much detail that is laid back and so there....I won't use the the Ediswan's with these output tubes anymore.


~ All NOS Platinum graded Tubes from Upscale Audio (except 6N23P's):

(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~ 2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(Germany) Telefunken 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair (painfully expensive/worth it)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair

(Russia) 6N23P's ~ 2 pair/came with ZMA.
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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #351 - 02/28/18 at 19:06:07
 
Got my 6N5P lot of 8 tubes in today. Stuck one  in the Taboo Mk IV in place of a cryo'd 6N1P I have been using the past few days.

Very nice tube. Do I like it better than the cryo'd 5N1P? Not sure at the moment. . . will have to let it burn in a bit. But for the price these are great backups to have at the least.
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Archie
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #352 - 02/28/18 at 22:42:41
 
Lon, what date stamp is on your 6N5P tubes?  Most of mine are 71 or 72 but a couple are 80s.  I wonder if there's any difference?
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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #353 - 02/28/18 at 23:31:34
 
Darned if I know. . . I didn't notice any codes nor know how to read them! I stuck one in my Taboo MK III for now after a brief spell in my Mk IV and I have the others still wrapped in bubble wrap in the cabinet. Smiley
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #354 - 03/01/18 at 02:09:38
 
OK, Stone, your reputation is on the line! I just ordered four Mullard 7308s from Upscale. I already have the Tung-Sol KT66s and a quad of TAD KT66s to test. This never ends, does it?

My speakers are Focal 1038es and they have the crisp berkelium tweeters, so the Mullards should be a good match. The speakers also have plenty of bass and clear mids, so this will be interesting.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #355 - 03/01/18 at 03:35:35
 
I think you're going to like them Norm. Very nice Speakers!

With the KT66 & 6P.....for me, they just do everything so well.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #356 - 03/01/18 at 14:37:22
 
Norm, now with the matched four you bought..... .

I did not like using the Mull's as phase inverter's.

It was serendipity to find that the Telefunken, which I do not enjoy as an input tube....but found each time I tried something else as inverter's....I preferred the Telefunken's back in as phase splitter's to really make my input Mullard's shine and input Ediswan's.

Phase Inverter, also known as the Phase Splitter ~ its function is relatively simple: take a signal input, and create two outputs, one that is identical (e.g. in-phase) to the original, and another that is a mirror-image (phase-inverted or flipped phase).....feed output tube(s).

Relatively simple....maybe and maybe not....however, I have found....wow, probably the most important are the phase splitter's to RENDER THE BEST OUT OF YOUR INPUT PAIR feeding the splitter's and then to output tubes and then output trannies.

.....just my opinion and discovery.




Tubes we are talking about for reference:
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes/products/telefunken-e88cc-...
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes/products/mullard-e188cc-73...
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/Mullard-E188CC-7308
Ediswan's .....no longer available ...but can be found.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=M6Hx%2bQa8&id=E1D2FC6227B6...

NOTE/DISCLAIMER: I run a high voltage/output transformer DAC (ZDSD), directly to my Amp (ZMA), adjusting input gain with the ZMA. I do not like Preamp's***. I have owned several....., to render the most out of my TUBES....and their incredible sonic differences/it needs to be direct from DAC as described....this is how I find my musical bliss.
I also run Kimber KS1030 & Kimber Select KS6063. Lamp cord is not going to match these musical conduit's.

See my System in post/reply #348 of this Thread. I keep my original signature below....from 17 years ago....never forget where you came from and started..... . Actually, I started 41 years ago at age 13...came to Decware in May of 2001.

*** I do not like Preamp's ~ true. However, I do own a Class A hybrid that I use on occasion....lots of fun.
How fun is it? It turns my ZMA into an Class AB1 BEAST Cool....but, my Decware is about what I have made clear written above in Class A.
Make no mistake, the ZMA direct from ZDSD (sans Preamp), does not lack in dynamics-riding its Class A & AB1 wave.




For those out on the www. (as evidenced by the 42,000+ hits on this Tube Rolling Thread) ....for further reading of interest/if you're not already aware of the Zen Mystery Amp details:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/MYSTERY.html

Furthermore, of importance:
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1476981128

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/clex9z20t4
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #357 - 03/02/18 at 15:44:29
 
Where did you get your KT66s?  One tube in my original quad died, so I am using the TAD KT66s which are sounding wonderful with the Ediswans as inputs and Telefunkens as inverters.

I found these Tung-Sol KT66s and wondering if anyone had experience with them. https://m.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Tung-Sol-Reissue-KT66-Plate-Current-Matched-Qua...
d-4-Vacuum-Tubes-/122912628153?_mwBanner=1

Norm
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #358 - 03/02/18 at 16:07:38
 
Hi Norm. My last quad I purchased from Tube Depot. My next quad of KT66 and/or KT88's.....will be from Cryoset.

I had the same thing happen to my most recent quad of KT66 Tung-Sol from Tube Depot. One tube went....they were only 10 months old. I pulled my original quad early out of my ZMA and shelved. So, I was able to grab one of those and match her in. Nice, having Bias & Balance Meter's....on the fly as we only do in the ZMA! ....and glad my theory of having a quad on the shelf with plenty of life left in them to accommodate one tube going out in a newer quad. Without the Meter's...no could do.

So, my next quads are from Sheldon at Cryoset/exclusively. The Rock Solid 6P's attest to that.
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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #359 - 03/02/18 at 22:53:48
 
NormD wrote on 03/02/18 at 15:44:29:
Where did you get your KT66s? One tube in my original quad died, so I am using the TAD KT66s which are sounding wonderful with the Ediswans as inputs and Telefunkens as inverters.

I found these Tung-Sol KT66s and wondering if anyone had experience with them. https://m.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Tung-Sol-Reissue-KT66-Plate-Current-Matched-Qua...
d-4-Vacuum-Tubes-/122912628153?_mwBanner=1

Norm

TAD KT66 are my favorite of the KT66 that I have tried in the Torii Mk III, and I liked the Tung-Sol the least. Larry, I've had JJ 6CA7 cryo'd from Ron Sheldon at cryoset.com that failed on me way early (few months of work) so I think it's the tube maker not the tube seller that is at fault, they probably both tested the tubes and yet they failed early.
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #360 - 03/02/18 at 23:53:03
 
How do the Mullard ECC189's compare to the Mullard E188CC for the ZMA inputs?
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #361 - 03/03/18 at 02:31:42
 
Quote:
So, my next quads are from Sheldon at Cryoset/exclusively. The Rock Solid 6P's attest to that.


That is for certain Stone!
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #362 - 03/03/18 at 15:07:32
 
No experience here Norm, with the 189. I look forward to what you think of the 7308/E188CC's as inputs with the stellar Telefunken's we use Norm for inverter's. I would try the 6P's with this config and then the KT66's...the Tung's or your other.

I will buy one pair from you if you don't like them. However, I think, as in our Ediswan's we won't part with....same will go for these Mullard's. I won't part with mine.

Yes, for certain Jeff, with Ron S. Cool
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #363 - 03/09/18 at 02:57:36
 
I put the Mullard E188CC's in the input position and I am in awe. The mids and highs are amazing - they really helped balance out the KT66's I have the Telefunken E88CC's in the inverter and TAD KT66's as the Power tubes. Awesome combination.  I think I will leave this for a while.  Well, maybe a week...

I will try the Tung-Sol KT66's some time in the future.

I just snagged a pair of Telefunken E88CC/6922 CCa's.  Any suggestions on where to try them, input or inverter?  How do you think they will sound?

Norm
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #364 - 03/09/18 at 13:30:31
 
The Mullard E188CC/7308, is pretty damn special. I'm glad they ain't cheap....keeps stock available pretty much..... . The tone and remarkable layers of harmonics.....takes the ZMA to an whole other level IMO, nough' said.

They do really balance out the KT66's. I believe they will for you when you try the Tung-Sols. The Tung-Sols with the stock 6n23p's.....no go for me. So you can imagine with the Edi's and the even better/stellar Mull's....I was in heaven to sideline the stock 6n23p's. Plus, the Catalyst ....that is the premium Telefunken in our phase splitter position.

The Mull's are stellar with the 6P output tubes too.

You scored CCa's.....very nice. I would try both positions for periods... .


PS~I'm going to get the Cryo TAD KT66's next/instead of Gold Lion KT88's. I will get the Cyro KT88's eventually, but want to hear the Cryogenic TAD's with my Cryo Plat Mull's & our premium Tele's I/you're running Norm. Glad you like the Mullard's. This ZMA of our's.....is pretty darn Special. It never ceases to impress me.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #365 - 03/16/18 at 17:41:41
 
Norm, when you get around to trying the Tung-Sol KT66's..... .

I switched to my Ediswan's for inverter's. The edge that is presented (by the KT66 Tung-Sol's) from some recordings, is taken care of by the Edi's.


Line-up for my ZMA (0A3 NOS RCA's):

Mull's inputs, Tele's inverter's to 6P's (absolutely Love)

Mull's inputs, Edi's inverter's to KT66 Tung-Sol's (down right heaven, now).

However, I must admit, I prefer the Mull's > Tele's > KT66's, the majority of the time. But, like I mentioned, some recordings dig the Edi's in the inverter position sourcing to the Tung-Sol's. I have the Edi's in as inverter's for a two week run.

The 6P's fed/sourced by the Tele's as inverter's and the Mull's as input's....are spot on, every time with its presentation of recording's.



~ All NOS Platinum graded Tubes from Upscale Audio (except 6N23P's):

(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~ 2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(Germany) Telefunken 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair (painfully expensive/worth it)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair

(Russia) 6N23P's ~ 2 pair/came with ZMA.
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #366 - 03/17/18 at 02:43:25
 
Stone:

You must be wearing out your tube sockets!

My current experiment is bypassing the ZTPre and going directly from the OPPO Sonica DAC (modified) into the ZMA. the difference is small, but I believe there is more clarity and dynamic range - not a lot, but noticeable.

I'll run this for a while before I try the Tung-Sol KT66's in place of the TAD KT66's and maybe swap around the inverters and inputs as you have.  Right now I am very pleased.  The TAD KT66's are awesome and have incredible bass in addition to clear highs and awesome mids.

I ordered the Morrow Elite Grand Reference XLR cables as an upgrade to my Morrow MA6 XLR cables and I will try Steve's ZSTYX speaker cables as well as the Morrow Elite speaker cables since Morrow has a 60% off sale.  I love the MA6's in my system.

This never stops, does it?  When I retire this will have to come to a halt, so I am free to play for another year.

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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #367 - 03/17/18 at 15:21:49
 
Norm, yes, I am very careful on those sockets.

Yes, I love my ZMA without Pre.

I need to get those TADS! I have not done it in awhile....so over the next 2 or 3 months...I'm switching around inputs and inverter's again...and see if I'm hearing my previous conclusions.

Nice Cables Norm. I am considering bringing in the Morrow (solid copper w/silver surfaced). I went to all copper in my KS6063 from my KS3035 speaker cables. I want to see what I think of copper predominately in an Interconnect vs. my Kimber all Silver KS1030.

Does it ever stop? I know right? It will stop for me too....just a few other tweaks and maybe the UFO3(25th's).....but, I'm not keen on that output tube anymore and its availability...so probably not and I'm done.
.........except for, if Jeff's power cap experiment works out and if Steve visits the ZMA for some form of a bypass cap enhancement. If not? The ZMA is mighty fine as is! ....especially with the Speaker's and Cabling we are running........ . + NOS TUBES!
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #368 - 03/18/18 at 18:54:58
 
Does it ever stop?

......it might just have stopped for me.

The Mullard input > Telefunken inverter to the 6P's output/ZMA.....KS1030/KS6063 to Adagio's.
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #369 - 03/19/18 at 01:38:52
 
Interesting. I just swapped out my TAD KT66s for the 6P3Ss and the latter seems a bit muddy on piano. Ill swap back tomorrow.
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Archie
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #370 - 03/19/18 at 16:19:41
 
Quote:
I just swapped out my TAD KT66s for the 6P3Ss and the latter seems a bit muddy on piano.


This caught my eye.  It's not what I experience with the 6P3Ss at all.  But they might be lusher (muddier?) than the KT66 which I don't care for as much.  To hazard a simile, would it be like, both are water but one is ice and the other liquid?  Since I live with cold winters I might prefer the liquid?   Grin
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NormD
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #371 - 03/19/18 at 16:31:52
 
Im going back to the KT66 s tonight to validate my original observation. Some recordings sounded better on the 6P3Ss.
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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #372 - 03/19/18 at 16:33:57
 
I find with the output tubes in the Torii Mk III that the rest of the complement really influences the final output sound, and possibly that is similar with the ZMA. With the Torii Mk III I'm hearing more along the lines of what Archie is hearing, with my usual complement there is an appealing warmth to most recorded piano sound, as if the leading percussive edge were slightly smoothed over. But with other input tubes and/or regulator tubes I can find the same piano to have a tad brighter presentation and the piano attack more percussive.

The output tubes that really present the piano most realistically to me (and I have spent dozens of hours in piano practice rooms at UT Austin, I know a piano's sound) is the JJ 6CA7. Too bad those tubes are suspect in the dependability and reliability departments.
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NormD
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Posts: 99
Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #373 - 03/24/18 at 03:32:11
 
My current ZMA tube compliment favorite, to which I keep returning, is

Inputs: Telefunken 6922 CCa
Inverter: Telefunken E88CC
Power: TAD KT66

The Telefunken CCas really opened up the highs with nice clarity; a distinctive improvement over the Mullards. I hope they last me a long time. I like the TAD KT66s over the TungSol because they seem to have a tad more extended bass and I love the midrange. I think I and done rolling for a while.

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #374 - 03/28/18 at 15:39:10
 
........back from a week's vacation of sun & sand. ....was very much needed....I got off the frozen tundra for a bit!

Anyway, Norm, I do need to get the TAD KT66's from Ron/Cyro. I would be crazy not to try them. Glad you're digging the CCa Tele's to Tele E88CC's.....I love my Mullard's to the Tele E88CC's. Great, how we can voice Decware Amps! ...an understatement for sure..... .
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #375 - 04/09/18 at 17:34:54
 
Norm, my first time trying:

our Mullard's as inputs
our Ediswan's as inverter's

........with/6P...E's!

NOS RCA 0A3's

..........ABSOLUTELY, loving this combination!
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #376 - 04/09/18 at 21:37:38
 
As good as it is....the above combo.....

The Mull's as inputs to Tele E88CC's as inverter's, are impeccable!

I finally need to hit up B Jes.....for a couple pair ....hear if this can be beat.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #377 - 04/11/18 at 16:23:53
 
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #378 - 05/25/18 at 19:31:55
 
Let me tell you. I'm in the smaller envelope camp for my output tubes. I dig the landscape of the KT88 and KT66's. However, the 6P's, I enjoy the tight bass and midrange to the highs a whole lot more! I also enjoy biasing them at 45 or 50mA....50 pulling on some more low end. The 6P's compress better too when putting them out of class A to AB1 (minor needle movement), with NO strident harshness or loss of composure/tonal balance. More headroom/understatement, than KT88's and KT66's.

I will certainly put some more hours on my Gold Lion Cyro KT88's (only 6 hours at a time...they run at 78mA).

But, I'm getting some Tung-Sol 5881 (for this stone of tone freak that I am), T-Sol 7581A (more headroom I love) & Tung-Sol 7027A's (for even more slam). I will spend the summer with these tubes and hear how it goes!

I must add my tube compliment. I tried the 6N23P's back in for inverter's. It became apparent that they can NOT DO what the Telefunken can do in the splitter slots! You want to hear what your 6P's can really do?! Geta pair of these in there (inverter's)!
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/telefunken-e88cc-...

Using:
Mullard E188CC/7308's for inputs NOS Platinum
Telefunken's (link) NOS Platinum inverter's
Reflector 6P's
0A3 RCA NOS.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #379 - 05/26/18 at 01:04:59
 
Stone, do you really have a pair of these at $500?
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #380 - 05/26/18 at 01:36:09
 
300 on the Tele's.....and the price has slowly crept up the last three years. Glad I bought them when I did. They allow the input tube to dictate its true character through the incredible Telefunken and then, dictate the true character dynamic's of the output tubes.
I treated myself to these back in 2015 and they should be good for 8 to 10,000 hours. They are incredible tubes.

I have two pair of the Mullard's and two pair of the Ediswan's as well (see reply #365 above) = 800

1100 well spent.

500+ for a pair now? To crazy.

I would sell all five pair of these tubes mentioned if they were not truly impressive and transformative. I also own a couple pair of Tungsram's that are pretty cool too. I would dump these two pair as well~if they did not provide Sonic's better than most.

God bless those that can't hear the difference. Unfortunately, I can!
Grin Grin

I can't afford a damn thing right now. Except, for the somewhat affordable T-Sol 7581A & Tung-Sol 7027A's.....to spend the summer with.


However, I have a couple more pair to get before they go the way of the Dodo Bird!

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/amperex-7308-vint...

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/philips-sq-e88cc-...

....if they are gone before I can get them? Oh well, I can find them used or switch to the SE84UFO3/25th Mono-blocks.....that will be stellar stock tubed (and I know, can and will drive my modified Adagio's). My ZMA? I'm to spoiled now...NOT to have all of the above tube compliment(s). Cool

I don't do boats, cabins, motorcycles, cars, jet ski's or Snowmobiles. I like good food & the best tubes in my Decware/Zen Mystery Amplifier! Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #381 - 05/27/18 at 00:19:55
 
At that price I hope you at least got dinner and a back rub!   Grin
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #382 - 05/27/18 at 04:36:15
 
Cheesy Wink

Nope, I'm hoping for that when I get the Amperex and Philips SQ.   Grin

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #383 - 06/19/18 at 05:01:29
 
Ok, so the more music I push through the ZMA with these Phillips 7027as, the more I realize their capabilities.  When you roll a tube, there is a period of lull in which tube burn-in, and user familiarity needs to occur.  I feel they have burned in nicely as the sound is consistent and settled.  

The second facet of tube rolling is hearing what you need to hear to make a sound, educated decision.  Well, that process has been ongoing since I plugged these tubes in.  To much of my wallets dismay, I reached out to Derek at Watford Valves in England to inquire about their current inventory of these NOS, matched quads.  He indicated they were nearly sold out, but there was at least one matched quad I could order.  There may be a few others but I didnt ask.  I needed one set, and they could fulfill.  So, $400 later, I have my backup set of these tubes, which in my system and environment, cannot be beat.  

If youve got some extra coin, and own a ZMA, you may want to reach out to Watford.  I really enjoy my KT88s - a lot!  But, in terms of midrange purity, non-fatiguing detailed highs, with a balance of output power, dynamics and tight bass, creating the most realistic preproduction, the 7027as are the reigning champs in my ZMA.
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