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Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet? (Read 32834 times)
Lonely Raven
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Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
10/30/14 at 20:07:15
 
My birthday is coming up in 2 weeks - I'm thinking about getting some tubes for the ZMA to play with. Anyone do any tube rolling in the ZMA yet?

I'm thinking about some Cryoset  Super Cryo 6N1P-EV

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=251&osCsid=8ead1fd8e...


I might be able to swing a quad of Gold Lion KT-66. But I don't think I can afford both pre- and power tubes right now. So I'm just pinging the family to see what others have had good luck with. Either way, I'll update this thread with some thoughts on tubes I've tried once their burnt in a bit, whatever I get.

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« Last Edit: 10/30/14 at 20:17:37 by Lonely Raven »  
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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #1 - 10/30/14 at 21:26:37
 
I certainly don't have the ZMA but I used those super cryo'd tubes for years and they are the best of that tube type I've ever used.

I did move to 7308s though, finally. . . .
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jsm71
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #2 - 10/30/14 at 21:33:32
 
It's funny most of us ZMA lovers are standing pat with the tubes.  I simply didn't think anything was wrong with the sound.  I also wanted to drive the quality of my preamp higher so I put nice NOS tubes in that.  The sound I'm getting now along with a couple of cable swaps is so good changing tubes on the ZMA hasn't entered my mind.

I'm open to be persuaed however.   If you try something that you really like, we are all ears. Smiley
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #3 - 10/30/14 at 21:50:09
 

Steve mentioned he's using rare NOS Mazda Red-tips for his input tubes. He said he chose those with his tape setup, but likes other tubes with the DAC setup. I've never seen "mazda red tips" before - if anyone has a link for them I'd like to research a bit. I'm also going to research those 7308 that Lon's mentioned here and elsewhere. I've heard of them, but haven't played with them myself. I think they were a bit expensive if they are the ones I'm thinking of.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #4 - 10/30/14 at 22:05:09
 
I'm considering trying some of these.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/matsushita-national-pcc88-7dj8/

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will
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #5 - 10/30/14 at 23:38:08
 
Raven,

I think I recall Steve saying 6N23P-EVs were the only tube of choice for him during development? If this is the case, and that is what you are using, it may be worth checking with him on the 6N1P, and 7DJ8 for that matter.... But the 6N1P has a different heater current or something, and in my MKIII, it was both notably quieter than a 6N23P-EV (a 6922/7308 type), but also the 6N1P distorted in my amp at not very high volume levels. Later Steve said this sometimes happened with Toriis, though most liked them.

Those 7DJ8 Nationals at Upscale are nice tubes, quite popular. Personally though there are a number of 7DJ8/PCC88s I like better in the Toriis, but I tend to like all the PCC88s I have tried, especially after adjustments, and/or balancing with other tubes. I find them, in general less edgy, more open and textured...maybe easier and friendlier, compared to most 6922 types, though I have used 7308/E188CCs and loved them. In the CSP3 now, I have an American Amperex 7308, and a pair of Phillips E188CC (the European designation of same [made by Mullard I think]). In the MKIV are some amazing early 60's Miniwatt PCC88s.

I think I have been lucky to find nice NOS pairs of 7308/E188CCs for 100-120, though I have sometimes seen Sylvania 7308s cheaper.

What tube type is that Mazda Steve likes.

How you would like to change your sound might point you one way or another. I feel for you on the cost of four inputs. That seems to make the decision for power or inputs harder.
Wink
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« Last Edit: 10/31/14 at 00:11:53 by will »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #6 - 10/31/14 at 01:39:02
 

Yes, Steve did say the 6N23P-EV was the tube for the ZMA. I've already spoken with him - and he says in my case I should try out the 6N1P. Maybe some 6DJ8 as well. I don't recall all he said as when we talk in person we talk at length and tend to wander, and on the phone we're super brief and to the point - that along with my terrible memory, well, I tend to only retain key points. LOL

I've got the Nationals and the Super Cryo 6N1P on the way. If I find myself going back to stock tubes like I kept doing with the little Zen amp, then I'll flip these tubes in the forums for only a few $$ loss. It wouldn't be the first time I tried something I didn't like, only to move on. That's part of why I'm pinging the family to see what others have experienced. I really think the ZMA is great as is, I'm just curious.  :)
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #7 - 10/31/14 at 03:04:43
 
I re-post my review of NOS tubes rolling in my ZMA again here. You may already read it.

Siemens E88CC ($370 for quad), RCA 6L6GC ($380 for quad) and RCA JAN OA3 ($18 for pair).


The sound quality of ZMA with stock tubes is unquestionably superb
. But I need more in lush midrange female vocal, sparkle treble and powerful bass or bass slam.

My first plan is to burn in ZMA with stock tubes for >300 hrs first to know the sound. Then do tube rolling step by step to observe sound quality changing. But ZMA with stock tube's sound is so good that I imagine what if I put Siemens E88CC tubes in, how much is the sound improvement?  
I cannot wait, I change plan to put in Siemens E88CC tubes first 3 days ago. Midrange sound is more lush, both high end and low end extend more, more holograph sound stage. But speed is slower than stock tube.  The fun or PRAT is reduce a little. But overall sound improvement is very satisfy. I replace KT66 with RCA 6L6GC next day. There is more dense sound and more bass. Now speed come back, PRAT is same as stock tube now. But bass is little bloated, not well control. Then I put in RCA JAN OA3.
OMG, it is the last jigsaw. RCA JAN OA3 make over all sound dense, coherent and PUNCH SLAM bass!  Bloated bass disappear and very well control now.

Now I get all, lush midrange female vocal sound to die for of tube amp reputation, sparkle high and PUNCH SLAM bass!  Playing with heavy rock music, you can feel wavy air movement of bass. It is very very scare realism! If you run at 56 ma, it likes discotheque. If you run at 52 ma, it likes stadium rock live concert. The strange is that you just listen at normal SPL 80-93. It is scale down at any SPL, no need to get loud of 100 SPL to get rock live concert feel.

Remark : My ZMA capacitors are V-cap TFTF, not Jupiter HT Beewaxs caps.
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Charnwood
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #8 - 11/01/14 at 15:31:12
 
I decided to do some tube rolling and have basically followed Steve's advice in the ZMA user guide. Try a different brand of KT66's and 7DJ8's in place of the 6N23P-EV's.

I decided to go with a quad of cryo Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8's from Upscale Audio. I have a Telefunken E88CC/6922 in my Taboo Mk3 and am very happy with it. The PCC88/7DJ8's are yet to arrive and based on previous experience it will be a few weeks yet.

For the KT66's, after some deliberation, I've gone with Harma-Cryo KT66-Retro's from Watford Valves here in the UK. I suspect they're re-badged Gold Lion KT66's that have been put through a rigorous testing, grading, burn-in and matching process. They arrived this morning.

If I'd heard the Harma KT66's before I'd ordered the Telefunken PCC88's I might not have ordered the PCC88's. The Harma's sounded good straight out of the box. There was nothing wanting. A superb valve that make's the Tung-Sol's sound course and unrefined by comparison.
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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #9 - 11/01/14 at 15:43:35
 
Very cool, hadn't heard of these. If they did start off as Gold Lions they've got a great foundation, great tubes. Glad they improved the ZMA!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #10 - 11/01/14 at 17:28:20
 

Looks like Watford will ship to the US - so that's an option for us.

OK, so I went a little overboard, but I felt I'd treat myself at least a little for my birthday...I'll just be paying for it later.

I went with a quad Cryo Golden Lion KT66, a pair of the Super-Cryo 6N1P,  and a pair of those National 6JD8.

I also have some lightly used 6JD8 in my stash from trying them out on the Zen amp - they were a bit dry there, but worth trying in the ZMA. I just doubt they are balanced and all that, so who knows if they are a good example to put into the ZMA.

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will
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #11 - 11/01/14 at 17:48:44
 
Raven said: "a pair of the Super-Cryo 6N1P,  and a pair of those National 6JD8."  I guess that means you can run different input pairs in the ZMA, not quads?

BTW, I think the Harma KT66 look like Gold Lions too. I recall at some point that Ron at cryoset tries to get higher Ip power tubes, but don't know how his testing compares with Harma. My quad sounds good though!

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« Last Edit: 11/01/14 at 18:08:11 by will »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #12 - 11/02/14 at 14:51:57
 
Re: pairs - yes - I'd need to ask Steve which does what (damn faulty memory of mine), but the outside tubes do something different than the tubes between the KT66. One set is an input tube, and the other I think is maybe a drive tube or splits the signal to the KT66 or something. Like I said, I don't recall, so don't quote me. I just know they do different things.

Plus, I couldn't afford quads of input tubes and wanted to try two different sets. So this is my compromise. I'll clarify more once I get the tubes and ask Steve what the difference between those preamp tubes is (or he'll post here to clarify).

Seriously, sometimes I wish I brought a tape recorder when I talk with Steve. He imparts so much information on me when we talk, and I'm really good with understanding concepts, but specific details often get lost. It's just the way my brain works unfortunately. If I actually had a decent memory, my IQ would jump 20 points.... Smiley
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« Last Edit: 11/02/14 at 14:52:41 by Lonely Raven »  
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will
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #13 - 11/02/14 at 16:52:10
 
Well I like that! That two tubes can be rolled in. I am such a tube lover, and have so many input pairs, that the thought of matched quads makes me squirm. I wondered if the two pair had different functions and worked in sequence rather than together.

I get the Steve talk thing. It is so fun to ramble with him through the various segues that come up, sometimes I forget to ask one of the questions I called for!
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« Last Edit: 11/02/14 at 16:53:02 by will »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #14 - 11/03/14 at 02:00:54
 

Quote:
I get the Steve talk thing. It is so fun to ramble with him through the various segues that come up, sometimes I forget to ask one of the questions I called for!


LOL - yes exactly!

So, I pulled out my box of "audiophile" tubes - which is everything that isn't slated for guitar amp use. Right on top I see a pair of 6DJ8 with GE logos, but the notes with the tubes says Telefunken! So I've popped these into the position between the KT66 and it sounds great. But then my setup has sounded exceptional lately - so I can't place if the Telefunken are really making any difference. I really need to do some A/B testing at listening volume, but can't do that for a few days.
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will
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #15 - 11/03/14 at 17:35:09
 
I bet your first feeling is right. Those tubes should flavor things a little differently and I would think add quality complexity.

I have some really good sounding GE labelled Mullard made 6922 gold pins. You can sometimes find RCA labelled tubes like this also.

Looking forward to your impressions after A/B...Then you have more to come with the Nationals, 6N1Ps and Genalex! Fun for a happy birthday!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #16 - 11/04/14 at 02:10:27
 

Yeah, it's probably going to be a while. I forgot I'm away for 3 days for a wedding in Brianne's family this next weekend. Plus I think I need to burn some of these NOS tubes in before I can really judge them. I'm not sure how long that takes for these preamp tubes to bloom.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #17 - 11/04/14 at 23:30:37
 
Well I find that the cryo'd Russian 6 types can take a while, whereas most European 6 types, maybe 50 hours give or take. But most European 6's sound quite good within 15-20, the occasional one taking 70-100 to come all the way out. Especially 7DJ8s seem to come out pretty fast.

How's that for vague?
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« Last Edit: 11/04/14 at 23:36:50 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #18 - 11/04/14 at 23:39:10
 
Those cryo'd 6N1Ps are going to take quite a few hour to bloom!
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #19 - 11/04/14 at 23:48:11
 
Much to my surprise the Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8's turned up yesterday. Unfortunately they don't go well with the Harma KT66's. The problem is that both tubes have a strong bottom end which results in quite a dark sound.
On the other hand the PCC88's sound stunning with the Tung-Sol KT66's. Fast and dynamic with amazing clarity.
The Harma KT66's do very well with the 6N23P-EV's but the 6N23P-EV's lack some top end extension in my amp. I'm wondering if my 6N23P-EV's are actually up to scratch because comments I've read suggest they should have good air and extension.  
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will
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #20 - 11/05/14 at 00:16:39
 
Charnwood,

I have seen a few different Telefunken PCC88s, and suspect there are more. One is Siemens made, which I have a pair of, the other...not sure, but both of mine needed some burnin to clarify and solidify the bass, so I suppose it is possible this could be the case for yours.

Also, comparing PCC88s in general, I think you will find them more extended feeling on top than 6N23Ps. An open, detailed, and  textured sound is characteristic of PCC88/7DJ8s in my experience even though they all have their own overall character.

I have been using some Miniwatt labelled early 60's Amperex PCC88s in my Torii MKIV with Gold Lion KT66. These are pretty warm and deep for the tube type, and are sounding great here.

I do favor OB3s though, which are more open and less dense than OA3s, and there is a bass tightening/reducing switch on the Torii. No bias adjustment here though. I wonder what happens if you lower the bias on the Harmas?

The Harmas will continue to refine also based on my Genalex...
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« Last Edit: 11/05/14 at 00:17:51 by will »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #21 - 11/05/14 at 15:41:52
 
I got my Gold Lion KT66 and Super-Cryo 6N1P last night. I popped the KT66 in the Mystery amp for a few tracks before I had to run out the door (got to see an early 35mm showing of Interstellar!!). The new power tubes had the typical sibilance of new tubes. With the GE (Telefunken) 6DJ8 they sounded a bit boomy on the bass. I had the KT66 dialed in at 50ma on the ZMA gauges, and it smooth out the boomy bass, but also took some life out of the sound. I'm going to burn them in some more then raise the current to see if I can get some of that life back without driving them to unpleasant distortion. No time for the 6N1P yet. Still waiting on the Nationals. Not judging anything yet - still need to burn everything in and play around. I'm just excited for new tube day!
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« Last Edit: 11/05/14 at 15:43:21 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #22 - 11/05/14 at 15:47:20
 
I just ordered some National PCC88's. Thanks Charnwood, LR an will. I was told too...that these will be magic with Tong-Sol KT66's. ....extension on top that I like. I do also have a quad of the 23P's Cryo put away as well.

I have Speakers to break in and my P3 continues to burn in... . Then, I will put the National's in.

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« Last Edit: 11/05/14 at 16:33:03 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #23 - 11/05/14 at 16:38:35
 
Reading back thru this thread (good question LR/Eric)? Which pair in my ZMA can I switch into the actual preamp stage? I want to split my quad of National PCC88's/7DJ8, an put the other pair in my CSP3 left an right output channels... . Also, run the quad in the ZMA only too for comparison. I will read thru the design notes an see if I can decipher. Or, Steve might chime in...would be great.

Interstellar = Yes!  Can't wait to see it too. I am trying to hit up the 35mm of it as well. The News here carried a nice piece on the Projector and the Film 35MM. One theater here, had to look for parts an blow the dust off the beast from 1996.

*********Found it in the Manual ....the A12 an B12 are the pretubes.
.......the A11 an B11 are the phase inverters.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZMAmanual.pdf
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« Last Edit: 11/05/14 at 16:58:55 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #24 - 11/05/14 at 17:23:59
 
Yes I can only compare charcteristic qualities of tubes not having a ZMA. But I have done a lot of that! In this context though, there is an electronic difference between the MKIII and MKIV to the inputs, and this does seem to effect the sound of all inputs, including PCC88s. They seem bigger and fuller in general in the MKIV, but still have the open, textured quality I love.

I wonder what Steve says about PCC88 sound in the Mystery amp. It may be that the voicing choices, the power to the inputs is also different than a Torii MKIV...???

That the Telefunkens sound great with the Tungsol KT66 in Charnwood's setting, and thick with Harma/Gold Lions.....And likewise LRs first impressions with Gold Lions and GE telefunkens....seems like this could be a borderline.

I remember when I sent Steve some unburned in cryo'd 6N23Ps to check out some years ago (and me with bass issues) he said something close to: no wonder you like them, they don't have a lot of bass! On listening to them after he sent them back, I realized the bass does develop over time, as the pair I was using was the same tube but well burned in, and had more complete and musical bass. But I have not compared them directly to other types myself. Charnwood's and LR's first impressions with Gold Lions seem to support less bass from the 6N23Ps though.

Like Stone found....From the Mystery Amp manual:

"Due to the direct coupling between the two smaller tubes we recommend they be of the same type and be matched from side to side. 6N23P is a dual triode, so actually two tubes in a single bottle, which is why it’s desirable to have both halves of the tubes match. If you can’t find 4 matched tubes like this, you can get by with two matched pairs. Simply make tube location A11 and location B11 match. Then do the same for A12 and B12."

Looks like the front one, 12, is described as the input, and 11, between the power tubes, as a phase inverter. It would be interesting to try alternate tubes in one position with stock in the other, then compare them to the opposite arrangement...see what phase does and what input does!

Lots of warning about discharging the caps before tube rolling too, especially for the OA3s.

Unlike the MKIV where the OA3s filter the power to the Power tubes, and OC2s filter the inputs, best I could tell from the manual, it looks like the OA3s filter the inputs on the ZMA, also saying there are not alternatives to the OA3.

I look forward to you all's impressions and experiments with burn in!
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« Last Edit: 11/05/14 at 17:28:41 by will »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #25 - 11/06/14 at 14:13:45
 
Got to make it fun for sure will! ....an make sure the ZMA is fully discharged for sure.

The matched quad I'll receive of the Matsushita/National PCC88/7DJ8... .
1st - one pair in CSP3 only
2nd - try just one pair in pre of ZMA only
3rd - pair in CSP3 an ZMA
4th - the quad in ZMA only
5th scenario/Will wrote:
"It would be interesting to try alternate tubes in one position with stock in the other, then compare them to the opposite arrangement...see what phase does and what input does"!


Report what I'm hearing vs. stock tubes in the context of my System an musical tastes. ...with at least 100 hours on each scenario.
If it does not work out for my musical pleasure....ebay they go.
...on to the next matched quad....of 6922 types.
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« Last Edit: 11/06/14 at 14:22:31 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #26 - 11/06/14 at 16:00:41
 
I had some good-new/bad-news last night.

I got the Nationals in, and had an hour or two before Brianne got home, so I figured I'd play with the 6N1P and Nationals.

Well, I'm pulling the preamp tubes out of the boxes, the KT66 were already installed the other night. The Nationals slip out of their boxes no big deal, then I'm trying to pinch and pull the 6N1P out of their boxes, and one POPS on me!! It popped like it was a fragile glass Xmas ornament!

In my 30+ years of dabbling in tubes, I've never had anything like this happen...now I'm a bit clumsy, and I have strong guitar player hands...but I've never pinched a tube to death! So I quickly E-mail Ron at Cryoset - sent him a couple close up photos of the popped tube on my kitchen counter where I have enough light for a camera phone photo...and the short version, he basically said I dropped it on the granite counter, it's my problem. It sounded like a very curt piss off. I told him I'm sorry that he's probably had to deal with weirdos in the past, but I wouldn't have bothered him with this if I didn't feel this was my fault, and it's too bad he's not going to help me. The only response I got was "send them back". So we'll see how he handles this.

I've never really had cryo'd tubes before - but I understand how the process works as I've had many other things cryo'd over the years. In fact, many of the tube stores use a shop I used some 20+ years ago having Porsche parts and guitar parts cryo'd. (yes, I was way ahead of the curve there). But I don't know how glass envelops handle the cryo treatment-and asked Ron if it sometimes makes the tube fragile...no real response to this of course.

So anyways, the 6N1P are down and out and I'm sending them back tonight. I should just buy the pair in the Classifieds now and tell Ron to Piss Off, but I know he's probably just drawn out from too many idiots out there. I'm hoping we can figure this out, even if we split the cost or something. I really feel like I just got a bad tube - I mean, seriously, since when does a tube pop by hand pressure?

So the ZMA currently has the Nationals in the Input section, the stock 23P in the PI section, and the Golden Lion KT66 in the power section. Right now I don't really like what I hear - but everything is still breaking in. I'm out of town for a few days, so I'll follow up when I get back.
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« Last Edit: 11/06/14 at 16:07:58 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #27 - 11/06/14 at 16:40:45
 
Wow, I'm with you, 6N1P are traditionally pretty rugged in my experience, and I think something was wonky with that one possibly. Ron has been a stellar guy for me over the years, so I hope he makes it good for you.

I've found these cryo'd 6N1P to be much better than the non-cryo'd I've used, and I've used 6N1Ps a lot over the years. Hope you get a pair in and see some improvement.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #28 - 11/06/14 at 17:20:36
 

Well it was your recommendations that lead me to go try the GL KT66 and  6N1P from Cryoset - so I'm hoping I see the same improvement that you do; though I recognize that you and I have different ultimate goals in our final sound.

I totally see where Ron is coming from, I've never had a tube pop like this, and I know he's handled it after the Cryo treatment, tested it, and documented it. I can only speak to what happened when I tried to pull it out of the box. I also made a point to tell him that I had zero damage to the packaging - which makes this even harder to believe, but it is what it is.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #29 - 11/06/14 at 18:45:53
 
We have different ultimate goals. . . and different amps! But the GL are very good tubes, I bet once they've broken in and you find the right input tubes for them you'll be really enjoying the sound. For me they really showed the Tung-Sols up.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #30 - 11/06/14 at 22:21:52
 
Well, I'm back listening to the Harma KT66's with the 6N23P's and liking what I hear. This is one smooth sounding combination, and I don't mean in the glossed over details sense.
I discovered that I have a problem with my Tung-Sol KT66's in that the bias of one of the tubes is way off. Bad enough that I can't set the correct bias on the ZMA. Not sure what I'm going to do about that.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #31 - 11/07/14 at 01:51:40
 
Well LR, I hope they burn in for you an sound good. If not you have Tong-Sol Kt's to put with Nationals. That is my approach with my 5 scenario's.

Charnwood, I will check out the Harma's. I have two quads of the 23P's.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #32 - 11/07/14 at 01:51:57
 


Quote:
I discovered that I have a problem with my Tung-Sol KT66's in that the bias of one of the tubes is way off. Bad enough that I can't set the correct bias on the ZMA. Not sure what I'm going to do about that.


Try swapping sides, and if the problem follows the tube, then it's for sure a bad tube.

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #33 - 11/08/14 at 19:22:40
 
Quote:
Try swapping sides, and if the problem follows the tube, then it's for sure a bad tube.

Yes, the problem follows the tube. Also, when I replaced the Tung-Sol's with the Harma's, one channel needed almost no bias adjustment where as the other was way off.

On a brighter note, in the last 24 hours the Harma KT66's have really opened up and it's quiet a transformation. As of this morning I'm back to pairing them with the Telefunken PCC88's and all the heaviness has gone. This pairing is now pretty well giving me everything I was hoping for.
I don't think I'll be replacing the Tung-Sol KT66's. I may, however, replace the Telefunfen PCC88's with the Telefunken E88CC's. I compared one of the PCC88's with the E88CC in my Taboo. I'll be doing that comparison again in a few weeks once the PCC88's have more time on them.
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« Last Edit: 11/08/14 at 19:28:17 by Charnwood »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #34 - 11/18/14 at 14:59:10
 
LR, have you tried the Nationals 7DJ8's yet? I had to get a pair in last night an I'm listening this morning. They are as Kevin described with only 11 hours on them...smooth/extended top an bottom with no exaggeration, yet very articulate and not taking away from transient attacks....an ohhh, the timbre an 3D addition of Air. I am very pleased. I am only using a pair in the Pre slots of the ZMA currently. My first of six scenario's for this tube. Let me know...I will buy them from you...if you do not like them. I am using them with the KT66 Tung-Sols...that they mate well with.

An yes, 11 hours does not make for a complete take on them. But, hopefully after a 100 hours an comparing to the 6N23P back in......will see (hear).
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« Last Edit: 11/18/14 at 15:55:04 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #35 - 11/18/14 at 20:34:09
 
LOL - I already responded to this in the other thread.

I'll report back more once I have the 6N1P in hand and I can try some swapping about.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #36 - 11/19/14 at 13:54:44
 
6N1P showed up last night. Popped them out of the boxes, popped them into the ZMA input section without incident - I think I like them better than the Nationals - but haven't really given them a chance to stretch their legs, or try with the stock KT66.

I'm off all next week, so I'll have plenty of time to listen while Brianne is at work - I should know more next week now that I have my tube lineup in hand and burning in.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #37 - 11/25/14 at 13:51:21
 
Cool Eric, glad you got that 6N1P resolved from Cyroset. I hope all went well. I am enjoying a pair of the National's (in Pre slots) with the stock KT66's. My next move is to put my other pair in the outputs of my CSP3.

Which 6N1P's did you get from Cryoset? Hope your week off is going well with Tube Rolling... .
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #38 - 11/26/14 at 15:15:43
 
Super Cryo Voshod's I assume you got. Not the GL's.

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_24&products_id=251&osCs...

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« Last Edit: 11/26/14 at 15:18:31 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #39 - 11/27/14 at 04:11:00
 

I got the Super Cryo 6N1P - burning them in with some music and TV.

I've been super busy working on the house, and doing things for other people lately. So I'm kinda crabby and haven't done any listening since last Thursday. I tried to play some music today but couldn't get into it...just left it playing to burn in the tubes.

Hopefully tomorrow night I'll have some time to play, and I won't be in such a mood that I can't get into listening.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #40 - 11/30/14 at 07:34:50
 


I just changed Siemens E88CC 4 tubes from Europe Ebay seller to Tube Museum seller. The tubes from Tube Museum provide more than 30% sonic improvement.  It is substantial improvement. But the price of tubes from Tube Museum is more expensive than general eBay sellers of 20%.  You pay for what you get. However the tubes from Europe are much better than stock tubes.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #41 - 12/04/14 at 22:54:42
 
One of my stock Tung-Sol KT66 tubes was getting funky so I bought a matched quad of Gold Lion KT66s from Cryoset.  I don't have the aural memory or the language to describe what I hear but I'd say they are an improvement over the Tung-Sols.  One thing is that I can't bias them below 58+ ma.  They measure 36 on whatever scale is used to test while my Tung-Sols were 30 for one pair and 27 for the other.  So far the transformers are not getting over warm.  Cryoset was a pleasure to deal with and I had the tubes just a few days after ordering.  A go to place for sure!
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #42 - 12/05/14 at 16:55:06
 
I ran my ZMA with the Gold Lion KT66 tubes all day and they settled in somewhat.  The bias dropped to about 56 ma and the sound seemed more "dense" than with the Tung-Sols and also louder.  I don't know if the increase in volume is more due to the 20%+ greater tube strength than anything else?  The transformers, despite the higher bias, actually seem to be running cooler with the GLs than with the TSs.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #43 - 12/05/14 at 17:10:19
 
In the Torii Mk III and Mk II the Gold Lions (and the TADs) have made me clearly prefer them to the Tung-Sols. But the Tung-Sols still sound very good in one of my Mk IIIs; that system has Denon 100th Anniversary components as sources and they tend to be a bit thick and rich, and the Tung-Sols are a nice complement to that.

I'm so glad I tried the Gold Lions, and also glad I tried the TADs--both are fine output tubes with strong and yet refined sound.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #44 - 12/11/14 at 14:37:29
 
Has anyone tried a pair of these choices, in the Pre A12 an B12 of the ZMA?

Tungsram 6922 Platinum Grade 2 x 75. = $150
Ediswan CV2492/6922 Platinum Cryo 2 x 108. = $216.
Philips SQE88CC/6922 Platinum Grade 2 x 169. = $338.
Telefunken E88CC/6922 Platinum Grade 2 x 149. = $298.

I'm currently using a pair of Nationals in my A12 an B12 positions an enjoying the results with the stock Tung-Sol KT66's...Inverter tubes/stock 6N23P's....an 6N1P's stock in my CSP3.

I've got the Tube Rolling Bug....an "try an stop me".  ;D Cool
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« Last Edit: 12/11/14 at 14:38:43 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #45 - 12/13/14 at 13:14:16
 
stone_of_tone: I think you should consider adding a pair of Siemens A-Frame E88CC/6922 to your list.

My experience with the Harma KT66's and the Telefunken PCC88's along with the quad of Telefunken E88CC/6922's I've been using for the last 10 days or so has made me wary of tubes with a full mid-range. Both the standard tubes in the ZMA seem to me to have mid-range that's on the lean side in comparison to most of the other tubes I've tried.

I had high hopes for the Telefunken E88CC/6922, it comfortably out performs both the 6N23P and Telefunken PCC88 in my Taboo Mk3, but I've found the Telefunken E88CC's mid-range to be too full in combination with the Harma KT66's. But they may be fine with the Tung-Sol KT66's.

Fortunately, when I ordered the Telefunken E88CC's I also ordered a pair of Siemens A-frame E88CC/6922's. I'd read that the Siemens weren't so full in the mid-range, which I though might be a good thing and so it's proven.

When I first received them I put the Siemens in Pre positions 12A and 12B leaving a pair of PCC88's in positions 11A and 11B. I found the Siemens E88CC's to have excellent extension at both ends of the range. It's that lack of extension that was my main grip with the 6N23P's. The top-end extension is particularly impressive with the Siemens E88CC's.
They have a wonderfully airy and spacious sound but though they sounded a bit lean in the mid-range on some material. I then put them aside whilst I tried the Telefunken E88CC's.

Last night I decided to put the Siemens E88CC's back in, but this time I left a pair of Telefunken E88CC's in positions 11A and 11B. What a transformation! Gone was the leanness in the mid-range I detected previously. The Telefunken's wonderful mid-range made a difference. The result is an airy, open, detailed and very balanced sound.    
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« Last Edit: 12/13/14 at 13:19:59 by Charnwood »  

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #46 - 12/14/14 at 10:45:18
 
This morning I switched the position of Siemens E88CC/6922's with the Telefunken E88CC/6922's. The Siemens are now in positions 11A and 11B and the Telefunkens are in positions 12A and 12B. The Telefunkens are now the dominant tube and seems I've left the best arrangement until last. This combination brings out the best in the Telefunkens and is very seductive.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #47 - 12/15/14 at 17:11:38
 
The upfront midrange might be a bit much for me with that tube.

For now, I am enjoying the Nationals so much...I'm not rolling any others for awhile.
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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #48 - 12/16/14 at 02:19:11
 

The Nationals aren't doing much for me...but then, I've not tried any other configurations for two weeks due to the new El Camino speakers I'm testing out. I didn't want to muddy the water with tube changes on top of new speakers breaking in.

I have next week off, I'm hoping to get back to tube testing now that they should all have 100 or so hours on them or more.

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Re: Anyone Tube Roll with the ZMA yet?
Reply #49 - 12/17/14 at 16:25:42
 
Yeah, I have over 100 hours on my Nationals in the A12 an B12. I Love them...more open an relaxed with more detail/aire. Yet, great slam in the bass with extended highs.

YMMV of course, we have very different Systems for our ear brain connections.

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« Last Edit: 12/17/14 at 16:31:29 by stone_of_tone »  

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