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Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense (Read 16315 times)
Dave1210
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Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
08/29/14 at 13:10:08
 
Background:  Many of us have our speakers pulled out a few feet from the front wall.  When listening to music we are most likely staring at the front wall, artwork on the front wall, or a television.  

Key Question:  To what degree is our audio image depth perception influenced by or visual sense and can you improve 3D imaging and depth perception by muting or ‘tricking’ your visual sense?  

I have pulled my speakers way out into the room (10 feet or more from the front wall) and have experienced fantastic depth and 3D imaging.  When moving the speakers back to a ‘livable’ position, the depth is still there, but harder to perceive, especially with ‘eyes wide open’.    

Has anyone placed a 2D image on the front wall or on the television that conveys great depth. For example, a digital or 35mm photograph that was taken out in the middle of the woods, where one can ‘see into the forest’.  An illusion of depth.  Does it now become easier to perceive depth in a soundstage when staring at this picture while listening to music?

If one had a piano, located two rooms behind the plane of the speakers, that you could see while listening to solo piano music, would you perceive the music to be coming from the piano?  

I was finding it difficult to be fully drawn in to the soundstage the other day and I grabbed a sleep mask from the nightstand.  Completely blocking out any visual stimulation allowed me to relax, gave me a heightened sense of hearing, and allowed me to better visualize instruments within the soundstage and perception of soundstage depth.  I was no longer constrained by my physical surroundings.

Maybe what you see, or can’t see, is just as important as what you hear, when listening to music.  Is this the obvious reason why late night listening sessions are so special?  

If your significant other or friends already think you are crazy for ‘just sitting and listening to music’, wait until they see you listening to music with a sleep mask on and pointing to instruments within the soundstage.
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will
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #1 - 08/29/14 at 15:31:24
 
My favorite listening environment is near dark, which does not typically happen in my room until "late night." With little light passing through my eyelids, and listening/feeling the primary perceptions, the subtle nuances of music and space are definitely heightened. It is not complicated by the dominance of sight.
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Lord Soth
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #2 - 08/30/14 at 02:48:25
 
Hi Dave,

I too find that by shutting down one of the senses ( sight) , the auditory sense is heightened.

I believe that there should be some scientific research papers out there which provide support for this view.

In my setup, i'm using it for TV viewing too so I prefer to turn off the TV and just float in the music.
I become more acutely aware of the spatial soundstage when I close my eyes.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #3 - 08/30/14 at 11:01:54
 
Dave,
as well as just closing my eyes I also find myslf gazing and not registering what I`m looking at. Staring into empty space is what I think it`s called. Also, to stop looking at instuments, or wanting to hear/see the whole picture and savour, I find that a point around 6ft high, centre stage, is a default position that I`m fond of. There, hanging down so it`s in front of the window is a round stained glass disk with a kind of wheel pattern. I`ll look at it (nothing trippy happens...yet  :) ) and sometimes start the `staring into space` thing.
Yeah, near field, low lights in the latter part of the session when the amps are so sweet. Well cosy, and the room is starting to feel `tuned`.
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Palomino
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #4 - 09/02/14 at 22:09:28
 
+1 on listening in the dark.

I also have the ability to quickly change my depth of soundstage.  I have a office/listening room in the basement with a door into a furnace room.  This door is between the speakers.  My speakers are only 4' out into the room, but open that door and the soundstage depth increases dramatically.  Its a similar setup to what Steve has at one end of his listening room.

Only downside is when my wife gets irritated when I turn off the heat or air conditioning for extended listening sessions ;)  Also, this weekend she called my listening room an "audio freakshow" and compared the room to the guys basement in the Silence of the Lambs  ;D.
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Lon
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #5 - 09/02/14 at 23:23:24
 
I don't do listening in the dark very much. . .because my time to listen is also my time to read, and rather than either/or I do both often.

And I am listening less and less analytically as the only place I can put my main system is in a far from optimal setting, and I know it, so I just have it set up so that as much as possible of my source material sounds good, and rather than sweat things like soundstage (which I know from my last room, more fitting and sonically pleasing, can be mind-bendingly good with these components) I have the most accurate and natural tonal balance I can get, as much depth to the sound that I can get, and just relax into the listening as much as I can. As my listening time has been more than halved when I moved here to Ohio, I try to spend less time critically listening and enjoying the sound, escaping into the music, as much as I can. One day I'll be in even better sonic shape in a better room, etc. and my system will totally overwhelm me, as it did in Texas. I have no idea WHEN that will be, I just keep the faith.
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« Last Edit: 09/02/14 at 23:29:20 by Lon »  

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Dave1210
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #6 - 09/04/14 at 01:01:54
 
Pal…is it simply opening the door changes the reflections in the room, expanding the soundstage, or do you think it's more than that?
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #7 - 09/04/14 at 14:45:21
 
Okay, here's a supposition. . . I think that it may be my journey for purer power and better power cords that has led me to the listening that is "transcendental." Right from the start of my journey with PS Audio power conditioning/regenerating products (which have included P300 Power Plant, Duet and Dectet, and Power Plant Premier) just having these in the sytem has led me closer to the music itself somehow, and soundstage and imaging have increased in "visiblity" incrementally as I went up the chain with these. And then my experimenting with power cords also opened up a lot of insight into the plane of the music and the tonal naturalness. I was reminded of this again yesterday when I added to My Audio Cable "Burly" power cords to the system at my Dad's house. They were languishing on components I don't much use in my second system at home, so I put them in place of Decware Silver Reference power cords in the system at Dad's, one feeding the PS Audio Duet and the other the Torii Mk II. (This was a few hours after I had added a CSP2 preamp into the system, which was a decided improvement.) The change in power cords seemed to cause the music to be more enveloping and energetic and the strengths of the changer in the system (clarity, dynamic contrast) became even more evident than before. My Dad noticed the change too. Today we're listening and we're just sort of wrapped up in the music, even the housework was done with one bit of my mind grooving to Beethoven solo piano pieces, and even in another room I noticed how pronounced the presence of the sound was, and how easily and naturally the sound moved from soft to loud. This is the sort of thing that makes me sink into the sound for that almost "mystical" listening. I think power treatment and cords have been a big part of the foundation for that sort of listening enjoyment and marvel in my systems.

Of course I'm a strong believer in "everything is everything." Of course Decware components and speakers have the raw material for power treatment and cabling to bring out the glory. And interconnects are also important in allowing the music to flow and in my opinion for that last inch of tonal integrity and character. All contribute, but the power treatment and power cabling really catalyzes the ability of the system to move you into that mystical listening world.
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« Last Edit: 09/04/14 at 15:34:05 by Lon »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #8 - 09/04/14 at 16:19:17
 
Quote:
Pal…is it simply opening the door changes the reflections in the room, expanding the soundstage, or do you think it's more than that?


I'm positive this is what it is. Typically there is something like 50 bounces just front to back alone before the sound energy is really diminished and it doesn't effect your listening experience. If you can throw a bunch of that out, it helps clean up your image, getting more into the spacial retrieval in the recording. It could also help with the bass somewhat, as it allows the bass to stretch it's legs a bit, considering wavelengths are typically bigger than your room.

My personal preference though is to keep that energy in the room and use diffusers, with some absorbers. But if you can simply open a door and change the soundstage, then go on with your bad self!

Back in the day, I use to make bets with friends, that my simply standing in different places in the room (not directly between the speaker and listener) would change the sound field in the room. Just me standing in a corner could change the bass of the room. Me walking to different positions in the room (blocking/absorbing/redirecting), would change the sound field that even non-audiophile would be like woah.

To use one of my favorite phrases from Star Trek - "ugly bags of mostly water" make good absorbers.

Quote:
Of course I'm a strong believer in "everything is everything." Of course Decware components and speakers have the raw material for power treatment and cabling to bring out the glory. And interconnects are also important in allowing the music to flow and in my opinion for that last inch of tonal integrity and character. All contribute, but the power treatment and power cabling really catalyzes the ability of the system to move you into that mystical listening world.


I'm agreeing with you more and more on power being a factor. My current setup is the best it's ever been...I know I lost something when I went to the DirectStream. Some of that Foot Tapping went away when compared to my Oppo. I gained all that detail and depth, and especially separation of voices and instruments, but I lost some toe tapping (how exactly do you quantify that?!) It wasn't the DirectStream's fault, but the fact that I switched my streamer from the OS built into the Oppo, to a Mini-PC. This was painfully apparently when I put my modified industrial linear power supply on the mini-PC. Suddenly all that PRaT came back with reinforcements!

The P10 had a small impact, power cords very small impact. Replacing the PSU on the PC, huge improvement. That was the proof I needed that a PSU on a digital device really makes a difference.

Honestly, I still think the big caps on the ZMA do so much for the sound, that all these fancy/expensive regenerators and power cords are less needed. Still, I'm sure they bring in a couple extra % improvement. And they still help everything else in the chain.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #9 - 09/04/14 at 16:25:36
 
I'm sure the power supply in the ZMA does make it very independent of the rest of the power system. Still, Steve said the same thing about the regulation stages of the Torii Mk III and I am here to tell you that though those probably do clean and improve the power supply but cords and regeneration make strong and steady improvements. I wish I had a P10, maybe one day, but my PPP just took my whole system up a notch. Really so very noticeable and has allowed me to evaluate all other changes with more certainty.

To be honest Eric. . . perhaps you should look into auditioning interconnects? They may be holding you back. I like the Decware Silver References for the money. . . but I don't own any any longer, and have found quite a few others that allow more dynamics and "body" to flow with the music.

Interesting about the PC and power supply etc. When I went to the DS from the PWD Mk II, both fed by the HDMI I2S connection, that PRAT thing didn't diminish, it probably increased. I'm lucky I guess as if that were to decrease I'd be feeling something was missing as I think you may as well. And I'd hate it and be hellbent on fixing it.

Everything is important, but I'm beginning to think the power foundation may be where it starts. And after that, interconnects make a BIG difference, the final sealing coat.
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« Last Edit: 09/04/14 at 16:30:05 by Lon »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #10 - 09/04/14 at 17:14:17
 

Yeah, I did absolutely feel something wasn't right, but I thought it was more of a mood thing, being stressed about work and what-not. But now that I've found it again, and I know *why* it came back, it's obvious how much I lost. I suppose had I bothered to put the Oppo directly to the ZMA again, I might have spotted it sooner. It's been driving me nuts...with as much as I gained, I *knew* something was off. I'm starting to wonder if I even need a preamp now...but I'm still going to give one a try!

As for cabling - I sent an E-mail to Cable Co. about their lending library, and so far only got a form letter back. So I guess I might need to call them.

I just can't afford $1000 cables right now honestly. Even if it did make an improvement, I'm still over-extended for a while.  :)

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #11 - 09/04/14 at 17:18:34
 
Cool. I only buy 1000 dollar cables used, I couldn't otherwise. . . but I'm glad I have bought them, they've given me what I was lacking and made me far less "restless." I hope that building up your power supply gets you closer to where you need to be. My DS has more than 400 hours on it now and man it sounds great! My whole system is saying "don't fuck with me now, just sit back and enjoy."

Listening to an old favorite, Albert Ayler's "Spiritual Unity" and it sounds amazing.
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Dave1210
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #12 - 09/04/14 at 18:49:03
 
I don't think I'll ever forget the first time I listened to my system with a Powerplant.  At that time I was feeding the SuperZen with the PWT/PWD combo.  I was listening to Destroyer "Kaputt" and I was connected to the music, foot tapping, massive soundstage, in a way that I had not experienced before.  It was a transformational moment for me.  



I'm still not sure where I stand on cables, because I haven't done a lot of experimentation.  I tried to participate in the The Cable Co lending library, but they pretty much ignored me.  Not sure if that's totally fair, but they responded to my online request and then said they would contact me about getting the lending started and...crickets.  I sent a followup note, and again when it came to getting started...crickets.  Maybe the price point I was exploring they could care less about.  I probably should have just called.  
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« Last Edit: 09/05/14 at 00:04:37 by Dave1210 »  
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will
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #13 - 09/05/14 at 01:57:57
 
This is an interesting segue....power, power treatment, cable quality, power supplies, ICs, pre-amps, and lets not forget vibration, aside from the primary components. All of these define the signal quality by how well they carry it, and/or how they protect the signal from noise. The common denominator of each is to help hearing more of the pristine signal without distorting grunge, which in turn can make the sound more natural in tone and dynamics...and the cleaner signal clarifies the soundstage.

Then there are Palomino's room changes with the door open...a different matter atogether, though as Pal has said elsewhere, this improvement is supported by the rest.

As I imagine all this, depending on the quality of power to begin with, and then on all that uses the power and passes signal, the way each of us approach each area creates system-to-system, and room-to-room variables.

I think your saying, Lon, that "everything is everything" might be the concept that does not vary. Oddly, in my case, getting into PS Audio regeneration was a really difficult transition, helping in some ways and hurting just as much in others until I sorted it out. And it did not help my already excellent soundstage.

Well before this the soundstage was brilliant with balanced and natural feeling tone and dynamics...enough so to feel indescribable captivation by the music. I did have decent power though, with a Brickwall, some Alan Maher filters, and a Kemp Schumman Resonator, followed by some decent power cords (many homemade), the MKIII, tweaked Mac Mini/Tranquility, adjusted MG944s, Silver reference, decent MAC ICs and Styx. My sound was very much like real music, enough so to forget about thinking it was one way or another and to just get sucked in, in awe of the beauty.

In that system, explorations with cables and vibration were easily heard, making notable differences in realistic musical refinement, but the magic was there without further refinement. I believe this points to something. For whatever reasons I was getting a balanced and complete enough presentation to prevent exaggeration or masking of micro detail and micro dynamics across the very musical spectrum. So I could hear everything including sweet body and weight.

Then I hear of LRs difficulties over time, with really good power treatment and gear, great source, quite decent cables, and a lot of room treatment.....baffling really. But I agree that ICs could help. I have really enjoyed Decware cables, but finally I find the Silver ICs tend to a sense of thicker bottom with some muddle below, and crisp clarity above. Also, in this system, compared to a number of twisted style cables, Styx have a similar tendency as the Silver Reference ICs...less defined below, and quite clear above. So I can at least imagine that a more balanced yet revealing tonal representation could be brought on by cables, and might help the DS do its thing???

Anyway, here, as I improved power, cables, and vibration more, the music continues to refine, but it was quite good enough to be captivating before. I should say though that even though my cords did not cost a great deal for what they are, they are very good cables. I like my DIY ICs better than Grovers (considered by many to be among the best regardless of price), and many others. And I prefer a few of my power cords over the PSA AC-12. And finally, my power is funky, but I guess I am lucky that it sounded really good other than voltage shifts. So though I got there in different ways than Lon and Dave, I agree that a clean signal can really contribute. But Raven has done a lot of this.

So I wonder.....why has my system been so good at the sense of real instruments within a great soundstage for so long, and for a long time with Styx and Silver Reference cables?

My intense interest in tuning with tubes is definitely a factor. The MKIV is the first amp I have gotten where I liked the sound with stock tubes Steve used, getting the best he can based on reasonable costs and availability. But....after playing around, none of the tubes are stock, and I like the sound way better. What I like is defined by natural complexity and natural tone and timbre across the spectrum, with effortless speed, and without holes or excesses anywhere. I think complexity of micro detail within rich smoothness, and extended balance are where a synergistic set of NOS tubes can really contribute. And tuning to our very different systems and rooms just can't be done at Steve's listening room. I have much preferred OB3 here over any OA3 I have tried for example. Also, here and in my Toriis, many PCC88/7DJ8s rise to the top...And 50's RCA 5U4G-STs...they are varied, but just really nice...My room, system and tastes, but this is the point.

Also, not a small thing here, my speakers are adjusted to have what I find to be a notably more refined, dynamic and complex presentation bottom to top, for me, contributing to musicality.

But probably more, as I learn my setting, I guess that room might be as big or a bigger factor here.

My adobe walls, the ceiling, and floor, are all very irregular (very little plumb or level even in a one sq ft area). So except some aberrant bass frequency buildup in a few areas, the reflection patterns are not really patterns functionally...a whole bunch of the room being a diffusor. I also have several segues into other spaces (also irregular), solving many reflection issues. And it is mostly massive...plaster on adobe and brick on sand. With this foundation, it was not hard to get a very real/alive feeling sound with way less treatments than most rooms would need to reach this level. I was lucky without knowing it, and always wondered why more people did not describe their sound to be as complete and engulfing as mine has been to me.

Now that I can measure the room, I understand it better. I can even up the peaks and valleys with minor EQ adjustments, narrow Qs, with the least being 4-6 Db, and the majority being 1-3 Db with this tube set. But a Db or two in the right places make a big difference toward the refined nature of the whole. This can take the sound from truly amazing to exquisite here. That said, the MKIV adjustments alone, with no EQ, make for a very, very captivating and magical sound here.

But to the point, that this room was truly alive and natural feeling is telling, and without EQ, without the CSP3, and without the more refined power treatment, gear and cables I have now. Speaker adjustment and a lucky room with the right treatments are the best I can come up with?

That said, all of my parts are good enough to help the other components create a whole that is better than the parts. Without this, the "everything is everything" effect would be missing something that could seriously compromise the feel of real music and the all-important soundstage.
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« Last Edit: 09/05/14 at 02:01:09 by will »  

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #14 - 09/05/14 at 08:38:36
 
Quote:
But to the point, that this room was truly alive and natural feeling is telling, and without EQ, without the CSP3, and without the more refined power treatment, gear and cables I have now. Speaker adjustment and a lucky room with the right treatments are the best I can come up with?


I would agree that you're room has a lot to do with that. It sounds like it would be amazing to listen to! Which is lucky, because the downfall of irregular rooms, is that it's difficult to correct with sound treatment if it needed it. If you can't easily (mathematically) predict what's going on, it would make a lot of it guess and test to correct.  

I for sure have room issues - I've said before, this big L-shaped room helps with the bass, but mucks up my soundstage. It's a wonder I get as much as I do, and I can only attribute what I have to good speaker placement and my abundance of room treatment. It would be *so* much easier for me if I simply had a common rectangle to work with. Hell, it would probably be easier for me if I had a dreaded square room!

I'm also a picky bastard, with really high expectations thanks to hearing one of Steve's listing rooms some 16 years ago. I've heard what a good room could do with a budget system - so in my mind, having spent the equivalent of purchasing a small car, I should have surpassed that sound by now....

I also appear to be sensitive to distortion and spacial cues - so bad recordings, odd order harmonics, and time smearing (from equipment or room) detract from my enjoyment. It could be a  $200k system, if it's distorting or in a room full of windows - it's probably ruined for me. Whereas I've heard a budget PA system at a guitar store sound captivating simply because they accidentally had it setup in a wonderful spot in a huge room.

I'm rambling again - the short version is everything is everything, and we all have our own personal likes. And some of us are picky bastards.  :)  (seriously, I think I'm the only person on the planet that turned down a set of HR-1, and probably *the* most beautiful set of HR-1 at that!)
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #15 - 09/05/14 at 15:24:41
 
Rooms indeed play a huge part and I totally understand the room treatment methodology and all its benefits. That said, the only time I had the luxury of a dedicated listening room I couldn't afford to go whole hog with treatment and since I've had to be in a regular living space and room treatment panels etc. were a no go. So I've been content and compelled to do with components, cabling etc. what others achieve with a better inherent rooms and room treatment.

Nor have I had the pleasure of a Deckert listening room and session nor am I seeking that "be all and end all" listening quality. I'm not as sensitive to time smear and distortion as you Eric, my Achilles heel seems to be treble energy--I still test very well in high frequencies by some miracle, and treble grain or grit really ruins listening for me. Thank God for the Decware treble control, it's made my listening life so much better. Tonal balance is very important to me and has led my quest for best sound more than most other factors--I think that's why the tube rolling and tone control flexibility of my Toriis makes them my stopping point amp, and why the PS Audio DACs were/are so valuable to me, they get the balance right if it's right on the recording to my ears and with my other components.

I think why power treatment and cords were so revelatory for me and the beginning of the "nirvanna" listening for me was indeed that the power in my old neighborhood in Austin and the wiring in my house built over eighty years ago. I haven't compared my system with PPP or without in my new domicile in Ohio, but I'm sure it would sound better without than my system did in Austin. And at my parents I am getting great results with a PS Audio Duet and more basic power cords than I ever did in Austin, much better sound from just that level of power treatment and cabling. Indeed I don't feel the need to move further up the chain unless I can swing a better Power Plant for my main system and trickle down something better at Dad's. I'm so thankful for the PS Audio products showing me what is possible and leading me to the excellent foundation I now have in my main system.

As for the HR-1s. . . well, they must not have fit the room. My pairs (I like my maple and my silver better than that veneer on your pair) are not going anywhere!
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #16 - 09/05/14 at 16:45:33
 
Yes room is difficult, and I think collectively we have proven that power, cables vibration etc make a difference if there is not something keeping us from hearing the fine details. With all that though, I have just a few inches flexibility where I can have my speakers and get the most from them.

I think a good illustration of the room/system effects was my sort of shock when I read what you, LR, and Palomino heard comparing the MG944 and HR-1s. What you guys described sounded like listening to different speakers than I heard here. What I heard was very close to the same sound stage and quite similar tonal values (I could hear Bob's preferences quite easily), but the HR-1 radial integration did sweet thing with dispersion giving a smoother and richer though still detailed midrange. This effected everything in subtle but meaningful ways...

But thinking about the HR-1s, with the Torii MKIII in front, I seriously wonder if I would have kept either the MG944 or HR-1 in this room had I not known what Deflex damping panels and Marigo green dots could do to musically tighten things up. Then caps...So I get the frustration of great gear and difficult fine-tuning. This room was a real challenge in many ways...but mostly bass. And now that I have things really good, I continue to mess around.

That is the thing to me. For gear to sound the same in different systems and rooms is a total wildcard. But if the core quality is a known, it seems a lot can usually be done to tune to conditions and taste, be it mods, room, cables, tubes or anything else. I guess I do it all and the combined result is worth the effort.

I hear you on picky too LR, seemingly a "stimulant" for many in this forum to dig in deeper.

Wink
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« Last Edit: 09/05/14 at 16:51:28 by will »  

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #17 - 09/05/14 at 22:14:41
 
I got picky this evening. Never happy with the ZP3 being relegated off of the main paltform I`d built. I had it in mind that it was quietest the furthest I could site it from the other amps. The other day I noticed an i/c was closer to the ZP3`s transformer than seemed right so I moved it and it got quiter. So this evening before anything I put the ZP3 right behind the CSP2+ at right angles and used a 1/2 mtr pair to connect them. That freed up the 1 mtr pair, which I used for the ZMC1, also now on the platform. As you can imagine it`s like spaghetti junction with 5 amps, pwr cords and i/c`s all on one level but I made sure the i/c`s weren`t interfering. Result, dead quiet ! Geez after 18 mnths lol.
Straight away before the valves had warmed up with Terapin Station - G. Dead, all the instruments had more space and the bass, always a feature of the ZP3 literally warmed my ears with it`s effortles penetration. Santana 3`s playing now and it`s so much more alive.
Small point I`m trying to make is that when we make an improvement it can seem awesome. You cant think what the next improvement can bring. Onwards and..... Smiley
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #18 - 09/05/14 at 23:14:15
 
I didn't subscribe to the thread so I've been missing all this good discussion.  Great stuff.

As far as opening the door, I think there is a lot of energy leaving the room with it open.  But there is also less congestion going on between the speakers.  When I get busted for turning off the heat or air conditioning, I have to close the door.  Its louder and I have to use a diffuser in front of the door to cut the intensity and the sound bounce.

I think that bounce or smear is what cuts the depth of the soundstage.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #19 - 09/07/14 at 00:11:00
 
We had some friends over last evening.  They are both musicians (clarinet and flute).  We all love music, but we almost never talk about sound systems or equipment.  I don't think the equipment matters to them.  I have never once asked, or even suggested, that they sit in the 'sweet spot’.  

That said, I always look at their feet when we're listening to music together.  My overly simplified theory is as follows:  If you're tapping your feet, you're in the groove.  If you are in the groove, you feel the rhythm and it moves you.  If you are moved, then you have an emotional connection with the music.

In my opinion, you don’t need a good soundstage in order to tap your feet, you just need good flow and tone.  Our friends have never really experienced the soundstage on my system, yet I often find them tapping their feet.  I included tone above, because, well, replace all of the horns or woodwinds in a jazz recording with those from a synthesizer and see if your foot is still tapping.   Obviously that was a bit of an extreme example, and tone differences across sound systems will be much more subtle.  Anyway, I think a lot of systems fail to engage because they don’t get these two things right.

We don’t have a dedicated listening room, but we are fortunate to have a bigger, open room.  I could certainly see the benefits of a dedicated room, but it’s also nice having a great system in a living space so everyone else can enjoy the benefits as well.  I honestly don’t know how my room compares to most, but I do know the room contributes significantly to the sound I am getting.  And I definitely have more flexibility vs. moving the speakers a couple of inches and losing all of the magic.

So, we enjoyed great friends, conversation and great music last evening.  It wasn’t until everyone left that I sat down in the sweet spot to enjoy the speaker disappearing act and 3D sound staging…the icing on the cake for that last bit of enjoyment from a great audio system (in a decent room).
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #20 - 09/07/14 at 20:06:53
 
Having great music in the living space is really important to me also. I think I could accurately say my listening room is dedicated to music, but it is also dedicated to aesthetic beauty, and to living, dining, kitchen work, and computer work.

A record a day is usually the most I sit in the "sweet spot," but from anywhere we sit or work, the music has that indescribable quality. Listening intently outside the listening seat, I savor the beauty just as much, though a little differently.

Really, that the listening room is the living area is a vital quality of life thing for my wife and I. We listen to music many hours a day most days. Not having both the magic from the broad room and the magic from the listening seat, is hard for me to imagine.

From Dave: "I definitely have more flexibility vs. moving the speakers a couple of inches and losing all of the magic"

I guess this may be in response to my post? If it is, semantics are tricky, but I think "just a few inches flexibility where I can have my speakers and get the most from them" is pretty different from ....outside a couple inches flexibility I loose all the magic. I do seem to keep finding a pretty narrow range within the chosen perimeters of the room where speaker placement and toe really "get it" the most though. And messing around every so often helps based upon whatever else is going on with the refinement of the whole....different tubes, wires etc...pretty small speaker adjustments from within a given area can refine the beauty here.

I guess it is not surprising (or maybe it is), but I find it interesting that when the music is most authentic from the listening seat, it is also most real around the room...and visa versa. Thinking about this based on your post Dave, has given me a new perspective to what I do all the time without having looked carefully at it. The tool of adjusting things from how they sound at my computer chair (or kitchen, or table) makes the listening seat better, and visa versa...and how important this is for bringing the most benefit to our lives is a big deal for me.

And tone and flow....yes.... Seems any discriptors fall short from a deeply musical experience, but finally, how can music be truly emotionally captivating without excellent tone, timbre, balance, dynamics, ambience, and everything else that makes the music feel authentic, and therefore engaging. I think we are lucky to even be able to talk about this level of experience....thanks so much to Decware....In this room, thankfully, it has those indescribably qualities that go beyond the descriptions from anywhere I like to listen. But yes, there is something truly amazing about the listening seat experience.

I am glad it is so fun to explore.
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« Last Edit: 09/07/14 at 21:34:13 by will »  

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #21 - 09/08/14 at 18:03:43
 
Raven and I had a mini listening session Saturday when he dropped off his Zen amp for me to listen to (more on that later).

Before he arrived, I measured and laser aligned the speakers and chair because I wanted to showcase the soundstage I have.  It is now even better with my new DAC/USB converter combo,

I am now getting what Raven referred to as sound continuity across speakers.  I would describe this as getting the micro details across speakers, like the reverberation from an instrument primarily on the left side of the soundstage being easily and clearly heard on the right and vice versa.

The only thing that was off in my current setup was that the soundstage clearly favored the right side.  I tried moving the left speaker forward, the right speaker back etc.  It was driving me crazy because I could not get rid of it.

Then I checked the alignment - not of my listening chair - but where the left speaker's direct line of sound travel hit the skyline diffuser in the rear of the room.  I have one small 2X2 diffuser for each side.  The right one was already dead center.  When I aligned the left speaker, the sound popped into the center and all was good.  

Tonight I am going to remove the diffuser (its wooden and heavy) and see if it remains centered to determine if it was just the additional speaker toe-in that brought things into line of if the diffusers made the difference.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #22 - 09/08/14 at 18:34:43
 
“..sound countinuity across speakers.  Micro detail across speakers, like the reverberation from an instrument primarily on the left side of the soundstage being easily and clearly heard on the right and vice versa.”  

Pal…I’m still not sure I completely understand what you mean by sound continuity across speakers.  Maybe a specific example from a recording you were listening to would help me.  The verbiage is new to me when describing soundstage/space, so I am seeking to understand further.  
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #23 - 09/08/14 at 18:51:17
 
This was new to me too in the last couple of weeks.  Raven put the term to it when he stopped by on Saturday.  It may be old hat to some.  for me, I am just achieving this level of detail with my new source components.

I'll have to dig our a specific recording.  I first noticed it with some classical recordings I have.

Think of it this way though.  If you have violins clearly on the left side of the stage in a performance.  You expect to hear the echo or reverb or transient details out of the left speaker.  What I am now hearing is the sound of those violins echoing off the right wall - sound being provided by the right speaker primarily.  There is a continuity of sound across speakers.  Where the left speaker stops, the right speaker picks up and keeps it going.  Also, during this transmission, there is not a lull in the middle of the soundstage.   Its continuous just like a real echo.

Hope that helps.  Maybe Raven will check this out and comment.  He did comment that whatever I do with speaker placement, etc., to NOT lose it.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #24 - 09/08/14 at 19:51:20
 
Quote:
Think of it this way though.  If you have violins clearly on the left side of the stage in a performance.  You expect to hear the echo or reverb or transient details out of the left speaker.  What I am now hearing is the sound of those violins echoing off the right wall - sound being provided by the right speaker primarily.  There is a continuity of sound across speakers.  Where the left speaker stops, the right speaker picks up and keeps it going.  Also, during this transmission, there is not a lull in the middle of the soundstage.   Its continuous just like a real echo.


That's about as good as I hope to describe it, but I'll try to elucidate.

The two key points in the description above are:

#1 the reverb of the instrument is contiguous from one speaker to another - it gives a better sense of the space the instrument was recorded in. You literally hear the walls on both the left and right side of the instrument.

#2 most systems I hear (my own included) have a lul in the middle between the speakers - sure I've got the floating voice in the middle, or the triangle or cymbal floating in space, but when the room is done well, and the system is resolving enough, the reverb in that recording is solid from left to right - all across the middle - just as it would be in a real performance in a real room.

Most good resolving systems (which includes all of us here) have a soundstage - you can clearly place the instruments in space, voice floating in the middle ect. But what most of us are missing, is the room around the instruments - the "space" itself. And the natural reverb in the recording gives us that sense of space. With Palomino's excellent sounding and resolving system, his good ears, some effort and little cost in building room treatment, and some small guidance/suggestions from me; his room now is now starting to resolve as much as his system is. Less time smearing equals a whole nother level of ambient retrieval and a much more immersive experience.  

Honestly, his room is getting to the tipping point where soon he's going to rival the listening room Steve has at his old house that I heard some 16 years ago. We just need to get a fleet of diffusers in there.  :)

I gotta get back to work, I hope this helps some. Also, I'm very jealous of his listening room and system now. The Rachel is dead sexy, silky sounding, his digital sources are sounding detailed without being harsh, and his room is great, soon to be exceptional....and I'm pretty sure he's done it all for less than I have invested in my ZMA alone!
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« Last Edit: 09/08/14 at 19:54:39 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #25 - 09/08/14 at 22:09:08
 
Ah, thats what I was trying to describe when I said "I was wondering about the escapees from the sound stage eg the bass player has got his afterburners on" So far this seems to be `now and again`so theres more to be done in fine tuning the room even though the system may be starting to reveal nuances as it seasons. So much to look forward to. Smiley
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #26 - 09/08/14 at 22:18:47
 
I have that sort of continuity of reverb and other ambient information across both speakers and filled in between. It's pretty amazing to sink into as you listen.  There are some recordings that are so "wet" that they don't really come together fully until you reach this sort of plateau of reproduction, and when you do it's as if a focus knob has been turned. I listened to this cd recently and this cd. . . the better my system gets the better it sounds, on a lesser system it's a boomy mush, but of late it is a blooming reality of a recording space . .

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« Last Edit: 09/09/14 at 02:30:35 by Lon »  

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #27 - 09/09/14 at 02:08:27
 
LR said "you can clearly place the instruments in space, voice floating in the middle ect. But what most of us are missing, is the room around the instruments - the "space" itself. And the natural reverb in the recording gives us that sense of space."

and: "his room now is now starting to resolve as much as his system is."


It is sort of saying the same thing as the latter, but here, I would say that part of the room being resolving is the sense of ambient "realness," brought on by seamlessly and subtly mixing this room ambience with that of the recorded spaces, and/or recorded affects (reverbs.) Many of my recordings are not "natural" recordings, and listening this carefully can be disconcerting on some. When the "room" boundaries created by recording space AND different reverbs on individual instruments is too focused, without the overall reverb seamlessly blending, it can get confusing. Luckily I don't usually focus this much on ambience, and most recordings I listen to mix pretty well in the transitions from individual instruments to broader ambience.

I guess I have not heard the lull in the middle of the speakers here. I have been trying to hear it, and can't. I don't think the speakers have ever been differentiating here, at least with Decware. The instruments and their ambient dispersion are well saturated and located naturally, seeming to come out of space rather than the speakers, and the totality of the whole seems fully intact though it does generally seem just a bit wider than it is deep. I think part of this is that the sound does come from behind the head, but the way the ears work there is a lull behind the head and this effects the overall impression of depth. So the ambient whole feels a little more like a deep oval sphere.

In my usual listening mode, my focus is more on the instrument/player, and the ambient information enlivens that experience in several primary ways: the fine detail on the edges of the direct sound contribute the refined sense of strings, wood or skin vibrating...reeds and air...finger/pick/stick/hammer hits...bow hair on strings...etc; then there is the broader sense of "room" space around each instrument as the direct sound expands into local space, also contributing to the sound of the instrument with broader, but still focused ambient dispersion, and solidifying the instrument in space; then there are the areas where the instrument's ambience mix together; and finally they all gradually fade into nothingness. This is typically the end here....sort of no end really, the edge of the ambience fade being hard to discern but a way bigger "room" than that defined by my walls.

When the ambience blends with a natural feeling, and then disappears, this is mostly what I hear, and is definitely what I favor. The direct sound and the ambience go through my walls, and are all around me like it were a really big room. And there are reflections, but they are so well integrated in space that I don't tend to notice edges, though some recordings  can sound like a very large room, say a cathedral, where the edges are so distant and so reverberant that I still don't really sense edges...

I was trying to "hear" where it stops...where I can no longer sense ambient fade (and it is daylight, so I need to check after dark), but it is hard to fully identify. Best I can tell it seems to be something like 30-50 feet out to the from the center of the music, which in this system seems to be a little behind and between the speakers. So maybe 60-100 feet wide and 50-80 feet deep depending on recordings....something like that. But really, it just seems to go and go, naturally dissolving.

Based on your posts Pal and Raven, one thing I have been experimenting with in this listening session, is reversing polarity, knowing Palomino uses this in Audirvana. Though I am using Pure Music, presumably the effect is similar and depending on the recording it does effect the ambient information in different and interesting ways. It may be worth checking out if Foobar has this option Raven. I can't tell if I prefer it or not yet... but it is quite interesting and could be a good thing to check after having listened with it at Palomino's.
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« Last Edit: 09/09/14 at 02:21:25 by will »  

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #28 - 09/09/14 at 02:20:05
 
Pal…after you identify a couple of recordings please report back.  I can’t say I have noticed any lull in ambient information in the center of my soundstage, but it’s quite possible I don’t know what to look for our my system isn’t quite as resolving.  

LR…I think you have mentioned in the past that you have a L shaped room.   Do you have symmetry in the front of the room where the speakers are located, or is the room open on one side of either speaker?.  If the latter, that could explain the discontinuous ambient cues in your soundstage.  Maybe the macro soundstage (vocalist in the center) comes across fine, but micro detail is skewed.  Seems like a stretch, but I’ll throw it out there.    

Lon..I just added that disc to my wish list in hopes I can gather additional insight into my system (and increase my collection of good music).  I'm curious if your system was capable of this type of ambient/detail retrieval  pre-DS.  I can typically identify sound differences (if they exist) when I make changes.  Case in point.  I was having trouble with a disc playing in my PWT, so I put it in the Oppo and fed the PWD via coax.  I then did A/B comparisons with a few other discs and captured some notes.  The PWT with AC-12 HDMI has significantly better image definition and clarity.  Said differently, the Oppo (w/Black Cat Silverstar 75 coax) feeding the PWD was diffuse, warm, and didn't define images as well.  There was no loss of PRAT with the Oppo, but the Oppo/coax combo was a very different transport.  

Fact is, I really have no idea what my system is truly capable of.  I haven’t experimented nearly as much as many of you.  So I find this all very interesting.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #29 - 09/09/14 at 02:29:54
 
Dave,

No doubt the PWD and PWD Mk II and DS are much better at this than other front ends I've had, but I've gotten into this realm with the Sony 5400ES as well. I think that's where everything crept up to that level, the 5400ES allowed me to tailor the system better as I was able to hear a bit more, and yet was "not good enough" for the Torii and the HR-1s to really be all they could be, which led me to the hunt for an even better front end, found in the PS Audio DACs. . . .
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #30 - 09/09/14 at 03:20:36
 
This might be a good recording to investigate...I was looking for something wet, with a lot of room information, and this was one from my collection that came to mind.  The performance is so, so, IMHO, but the sound is very open.  Reverb/room sounds continuous to me...

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #31 - 09/09/14 at 04:17:36
 
Quote:
If one had a piano, located two rooms behind the plane of the speakers, that you could see while listening to solo piano music, would you perceive the music to be coming from the piano?  


Yes, I have to say that it's possible.

LR, I know you heard the front room at my old house, but did you ever hear the main room with the corner horns? Remember it had a large 6 foot opening centered in the wall connecting to a similar sized dining room? Remember the grand piano I put in there? I used to record that piano from the various locations and then play it back until I got it to sound like someone was actually playing the piano... it was great fun. The Piano would have been located 8 feet behind the speakers. I really loved the way those speakers sounded in that room... it was the absolute king of soundstage depth. The dining room went back to another room, the kitchen. The back wall of the  kitchen was 34 feet behind the speakers and many nights there was sound on that back wall. It was the measuring tape I used to design the first Decware amplifiers.

Smiley
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #32 - 09/09/14 at 05:17:23
 

Yeah, I remember the setup, but never heard the corner horns back then. The fact that you used that setup to design the amps, explains a lot with how well they render space.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #33 - 09/09/14 at 12:14:49
 
Dave, I don't know if you have this track but hd tracks had a free download and one of the songs is "Misery."  Lots of ambience.  Throughout the song the guitar plays on the right side of the soundstage.  The echo of the guitar is seemless across the soundstage and echoes off the left side soundstage up to the very upper left corner.

Wailing Jenny's "long time traveller" from Firecracker is another example.  There are three voices but the voice on the right clearly echoes more off the left wall. It's more difficult to hear once the third voice on the left comes in.

The best example is off some obscure disc I bought a long time ago for $2 called "the most beautiful melodies of Bach Gluck Hadyn Chopin.  Any of songs by the Budapest Strings.  Violin on the left carries through to the right side and vice versa.

That's all I have for now. I haven't heard this effect until the new DAC - actually the new DAC and USB converter - and changing from absorbers at the first reflection point to diffusers.

I asked raven to listen to a few so songs specifically to see if he heard the same thing I did and he picked it out after the first song (I did not tip him off).

Again it may be old hat to some but this is not your usual ambience in live recordings. It's the continuity in ambience that is new to my room.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #34 - 09/09/14 at 14:36:28
 
Quote:
I asked raven to listen to a few so songs specifically to see if he heard the same thing I did and he picked it out after the first song (I did not tip him off).


LOL - that's why you got so excited when I pointed it out!

Yeah, seriously, it was the *very* first thing I noticed when I sat down. IMHO, that to me says your room is getting there. I'm honestly surprised that you're saying it's the DAC/Converter combo that got you there - so maybe the room has been there for a while now, and you just needed to tighten up on something, and the new digital gear fixed whatever it was.

Now imagine Steve doing this 16+ years ago, with a $200 CD player, Zen amp, and DIY speakers. You can see why I've been frustrated chasing this down for so long.
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Dave1210
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #35 - 09/10/14 at 02:22:09
 
Pal...thanks for the music references.  I don't have any of the songs you mentioned, but will pick them up.  Is the "Misery" track on the Chesky label?

I also use diffusion at first reflection points (except for the ceiling, which is untreated).  Actually it's a mix of diffusion/absorption...I currently have diffusion panels closest to the speakers, and absorption panels next to the diffusion panels.  The absorption panels catch the reflection from the opposite speaker (not sure if some people call that the second reflection point).  I would like to try all diffusion at some point.

Cheers,
David
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #36 - 09/11/14 at 21:02:50
 
Pal...I think I found the Misery track you were referring to, but I'm not sure I hear what you are hearing.  But I don't hear any holes in the center either.  Hmm...
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« Last Edit: 09/11/14 at 21:09:25 by Dave1210 »  
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #37 - 09/11/14 at 21:22:22
 
The holes Raven mentioned were more of a function of his room/speakers.   I think the gallos have helped his hole issue.

I found a couple more songs that are more common.  Gold Dust Woman by Fleetwood Mac and Flamenco Sketches from Kind of Blue, Miles Davis.

On Gold Dust Woman, its the continuity and reflections of sound from the guitar on the left.  It's this smooth wash of echo from the left side of the soundstage to the upper right corner of the soundstage where the guitar echoes off the where the wall/ceiling meet.

On Flamenco Sketches, its either sax, but the right side sax has more of the effect, echoing off the left wall/ceiling.

Again, I hope I am not wasting everyone's time, but I am hearing this now I think because the DAC can serve up the ambient detail and the room is controlled enough to present it.  Its just the most realistic sense of space I have had yet in my setup.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #38 - 09/11/14 at 21:51:31
 
Dave, my saying there is a hole or dead space in the middle was oversimplifying it, and I've probably muddled the point.

You really need to hear it to understand what we're talking about.

It's such a clear sense of space, it's almost like the reverb in the recording is another instrument with a space of it's own. You can clearly hear the room the instruments are in (real or virtual in some cases). It's way more than just throwing in image, it's throwing an image of the instrument, *and* the space the image is in.

I'm still quite jealous of Pal's setup now.
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« Last Edit: 09/11/14 at 21:52:57 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #39 - 09/11/14 at 21:59:28
 
Sorry Raven.  I thought you were talking about your room when you were talking about not hearing the hole.

I think that's the best description "the image and the space the image is in."  Its the best I've achieved yet in getting the space the image is in right.

I just did those Chesky depth of image tests that go back in increments to 80 feet.  I can differentiate out to 80 feet now where before it started sounding the same at 50 ft.  The difference is that I can hear the reflections off the side wall to mark the depth now.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #40 - 09/11/14 at 22:31:28
 
Yeah, the Gallo's help with my imaging, it's not quite the black hole in some spots - but the L shaped room is what's killing me.

I'll just buy a new house.

Ahh, this one should suit my needs! Only $600k!

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/acoustics-smt-room-treatments-or-house-for-sale...

This room looks like it's treated well enough to please me.  :)


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« Last Edit: 09/11/14 at 22:32:09 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #41 - 09/12/14 at 00:46:34
 
Pal…first off, you aren’t wasting my time.  I am trying to learn more, so all of your descriptions are definitely helping.

Instruments will exist in a room that is either defined by a physical structure, or added electronically via reverb algorithms (due to close miking techniques used in most modern recordings).  I think we all understand the basic concept of reverb from a physical room.  Typically, when reverb is added electronically, the reverb effect is on a mixing bus, and the same reverb setting is applied to all of the instruments.  Makes sense so that everything appears as if it was recorded in one room vs. a miss match of different spaces.

I have always thought that defining the space around the instrument, is really just the instrument existing in the room.  Is it 10 ft back and to the right, or 50 ft back and to the left.  The idea of ‘following the reflections’ vs. holistically interpreting the placement of the instrument in the room is new to me.    That assumes I am understanding the concept appropriately.    

LR...you are right, it would be a lot easier if I could hear it.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #42 - 09/12/14 at 01:07:49
 

Quote:
LR...you are right, it would be a lot easier if I could hear it.


Party at Palomino's house!!

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #43 - 09/12/14 at 01:28:47
 
Palomino said: "In Flamenco Sketches, its either sax, but the right side sax has more of the effect, echoing off the left wall/ceiling."

LR said: "it's almost like the reverb in the recording is another instrument with a space of it's own."

Wow, you guys are really geeking out! Wink

For me, especially the right sax effect, but both really, I hear a sort of a merging three fold thing. There seems to be an ambient "glow" radiating out from the sax itself, then another layer of focus left and back of center, and finally a high corner-like slappy reverb that is left and forward of the piano. The left sax is similar, but the widest part focusing further back, mostly above and right of the bass...here I get more of the "mini-me" effect I think Raven speaks of, like another little sax slightly delayed and in a different location. But, especially played louder, I notice the sense of layers less, hearing more what I expect the engineer was after, a big player-in-space sort of feeling.

The finite details of this, I prefer not to hear and tend to tone back from this level of ambience finding it a little confusing. But if I am not listening for it, I usually just hear the beauty of player space.

It is fun to explore. Thanks for the reference Pal, this is the only recording I have that you mention, and it was fun to listen to this way.
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« Last Edit: 09/12/14 at 01:30:55 by will »  

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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #44 - 09/12/14 at 01:48:59
 
Yeah that's it.  To the letter.

I think this is the high res version I am listening to not redbook.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #45 - 09/12/14 at 01:56:25
 
Nice. It is fun to compare notes! Thanks. I was using a rebook master, not sure which, but I must have gotten the CD sometime in the mid-eighties. It is not the Legacy version, where I don't like the mastering.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #46 - 09/12/14 at 11:32:51
 
I'm not hearing what you guys are describing.  I think I need more micro detail.  Either that or I need new ears!
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #47 - 09/12/14 at 11:33:34
 
I have three versions.  Vinyl, a mid-80's version and a 24/96 HDtracks download.  I have never really warmed to the 24/96 version.  Its re-mastered and they took out the hiss, but I feel they took out some warmth or something.  I need to give it another shot.

This was the 2nd jazz album I ever bought.  Probably late 70's.  I took a class in college called "The Evolution of Jazz." taught by an old bebop trumpet player.  It was considered a blow-off class, but its probably one of the only courses I still appreciate today.  Anyway, after that class I decided if I was going to buy records, I should probably get some guidance and Kind of Blue was rated highly by a Rolling Stone record guide, so I bought it.  Its probably still one of my favorites.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #48 - 09/12/14 at 11:52:27
 
Well Dave, I didn't have it until this DAC/room arrangement.  I do think its worth pursuing and I intend to keep treating my room to see if there is more possible.  Based on Raven's description of Steve's room in his old place, I do think more is possible.  I'm lucky to have a dedicated room right now which (as I've said) my wife calls the "audio freak show."

Like Will, I now mostly just appreciate the sense of space in the recording.  It was initially like "wow, that really gives you the feeling of the recording space."  Raven confirmed what I was hearing, then we zoomed in on what was driving that feeling to identify the effect.  Now that I have dissected it, I'm ready to just enjoy it when it does occur in a song.  

I do have to say it has really allowed me to enjoy classical music more.  I think it will help me appreciate some more jazz as well.  So to that extent, it's helped me broaden my musical horizons a bit.
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Re: Soundstage Depth & Visual Sense
Reply #49 - 09/12/14 at 12:08:10
 
It's definitely something I will continue to pursue.  I  would like to play around with my room treatments this weekend, assuming I can find some time for myself.  That said, it's quite possible I am hampered by a few different variables, but will start there.

Pal...If you go back to your old DAC (same optimized room treatments) do you lose the effect?
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