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Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7 (Read 16887 times)
Lon
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #50 - 08/23/15 at 17:12:23
 
Mark, I think you'd like interconnects blending copper and silver. I moved to these from the Decware and man. . . it really improved a lot of my frequency balance issues and got me closer to just slipping into the music itself. (Even moving to all copper interconnects by cryoset got me closer to this state than the Decware ones did).

I have interconnects sitting in boxes in my storage unit that I will probably put up for sale in the near future. And I may even allow you "trying at home opportunities" if you're interested. Let me know.
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mark58
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #51 - 08/23/15 at 18:00:16
 
Lon,  you are talking about Decware Studio Grade interconnects (DSGs) correct?  Have you tried the Decware Silver Reference interconnects, if so, what were your impressions.  I had not considered the DSR interconnects the cause of some of my high end problem but after my experiences with different speaker cables and interconnects in my main system...I'm starting to wonder.

I am interested in interconnects you want to sell as well as other gear.  In home trials would be great. I thought you were currently using some ultra expensive interconnects...are they cooper and silver?  Anyway, I'm open to all suggestions and help.  I am looking forward to a time when I'm content with my cabling and can just enjoy the occasional tube roll to keep it fresh.  Thanks,  Mark.  

PS...after reading your post again...you moved away from the decware silver interconnects, correct?

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« Last Edit: 08/23/15 at 18:06:53 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #52 - 08/23/15 at 20:57:39
 
mark58 wrote on 08/23/15 at 18:00:16:
Lon,  you are talking about Decware Studio Grade interconnects (DSGs) correct?  Have you tried the Decware Silver Reference interconnects, if so, what were your impressions.  I had not considered the DSR interconnects the cause of some of my high end problem but after my experiences with different speaker cables and interconnects in my main system...I'm starting to wonder.

I am interested in interconnects you want to sell as well as other gear.  In home trials would be great. I thought you were currently using some ultra expensive interconnects...are they cooper and silver?  Anyway, I'm open to all suggestions and help.  I am looking forward to a time when I'm content with my cabling and can just enjoy the occasional tube roll to keep it fresh.  Thanks,  Mark.  

PS...after reading your post again...you moved away from the decware silver interconnects, correct?


That's correct Mark, away from the Silver Reference, when I started my journey into interconnect experimentation there were no other Decware interconnects.

I moved to PS Audio xStream Statement and then back to my trusty Tara Lab RSC Reference, and then on to cryoset and then on to a few others but started climbing the ladder of the VooDoo Cable line, first Evolution, then Ultralinear, then two versions of the top of the line, Stradivarius. These are interconnects made with continuous cast copper and silver conductors and are cryo-treated.
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mark58
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #53 - 01/17/16 at 13:40:09
 
Lon,  now that you are in ZP3 tube rolling mode I thought I'd bring up this thread that has tons of info, impressions and ideas.  Also the link below is a more recent thread that may be helpful...I haven't re-read any of these yet but probably will. And of course there are numerous tube impressions scattered through other threads.  I am constantly talking about tubes tried in the "What's Spinning" thread as you well know. Smiley Mark.

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1359652300

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1402147415

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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #54 - 01/17/16 at 13:55:13
 
Thanks Mark. I find everyone else's impressions of tubes in a component an interesting guide but in truth I think tubes sound differently in each system and room and it's hard to make definitive choices.

A few years ago I bought a grab bag of 12AU and 12AX type tubes, a few dozen, of mixed brands, and I've been going through them for the ZP3. Last night I put in another one, a Sylvania 6189 that the seller claimed was Amperex made in the US. It almost had all that I need, but was just a bit bass light and too sparkly. It may tame and bloom a bit but I'm not patient enough to go through a lot of burn in right now, will work on that later in between listening sessions. I have a few more Amperex and RCA in storage, 12AX7s, so I'll work on rolling some of these into the ZP3 soon. I have so many tubes on hand I'm not going to buy any more for some time, and indeed may thin the herd.

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« Last Edit: 01/17/16 at 16:22:36 by Lon »  

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mark58
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #55 - 01/17/16 at 14:15:22
 
Lon wrote..."I find everyone else's impressions of tubes in a component an interesting guide but in truth I think tubes sound differently in each system and room and it's hard to make definitive choices."

Lon, I agree 100% but still I find other's opinions a good starting point.  I found Joe's tube lore very helpful when I started my tube rolling.

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html

But I must admit Joe's opinions of Telfunkens and German tubes in general have kept me from trying them.  Which is OK since usually they are much more expensive than those I've tried.  I may have to try some since you and many others have gushed about the Telfunkens in the ZP3 and Decware amps and preamps. Anyway, keep us apprised of your tube rolling adventure. Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #56 - 01/17/16 at 14:42:57
 
And in order to not be prone to preconception, I tend to not study others' impressions too much especially as they don't often align with my own. Decware owners' impressions mean most to me for obvious reasons!

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« Last Edit: 01/17/16 at 16:21:23 by Lon »  

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JD
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #57 - 01/17/16 at 15:41:42
 
That would be a mint name "Prone to Preconception" for an album or even a band.
Looking forward to a special celebrating MLK jr. on the radio program American Routes at noon today.

JD
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mark58
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #58 - 01/17/16 at 15:58:22
 
JD is that thing on radio a Jazz program...what channel?   Mark.

PS...here's what JD is talking about... http://americanroutes.wwno.org/archives/show/938/from-home-page
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« Last Edit: 01/17/16 at 16:06:43 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #59 - 01/17/16 at 16:00:01
 
JD wrote on 01/17/16 at 15:41:42:
That would be a mint name "Prone to Preconception" for an album or even a band.
Looking forward to a special celebrating MLK jr. on the radio program American Routes at noon today.

JD

That's nice Justin. MLK was one of the greats.
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Lon
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"Love without
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Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #60 - 01/17/16 at 16:12:24
 
After being all over the map with tubes in the ZP3 I went back to where I started this last roll binge from: TAD 12AU7 and two TAD 12AX7s, cryo'd from cryoset. To be honest this set is the most dynamic of all the complements I've tried, and a nice neutral tonal balance as well. I'm having a little difficulty getting a centered mono image on mono material, but that's I think the room and I'll keep working on gain and tone controls to dial that in. . . . I move my speakers back to the wall to rest and out to play every day so that's a daily sort of battle. . . .

I really think I'll just leave these TAD tubes in til I get to storage. As TADs have the last few years, they surprise me.
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JD
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #61 - 01/17/16 at 16:20:33
 
One of the true great humans for sure. Mark I listen on 91.9 fm here in Boston but I know it is broadcast nationally.  I never miss it, the host is a great resource for knowledge and music. That is followed by a world music program and then a few hours of Celtic music...my sunday ritual with football on mute playing on the tv.

Happy Listening

JD
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mark58
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #62 - 01/17/16 at 16:29:38
 
JD, you sound like a multimedia guy like me.  I often will sit in the den and play music while reading and typing on the internet and also watching old movies on TCM muted...I especially like it when there's a black and white one on...even the silent films are wonderful while listening to music.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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mark58
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #63 - 01/17/16 at 16:37:30
 
Lon,  your gravitation toward the cryoed TAD 12AX7 and 12AU7 has peaked my interest...I may order some as well as a cryoed Valve Art 274B.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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JD
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Posts: 442
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #64 - 01/17/16 at 17:08:34
 
Mark,

+1 on TCM. I really enjoy their movies especially the black and whites!

JD
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Lon
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"Love without
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Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #65 - 01/17/16 at 18:23:29
 
I like these cryo'd tubes for the ZP3. . . they took a bit of time to "cook" or burn in but when they bloom they're very nice and accurate but not harsh or sibilant.
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #66 - 01/17/16 at 20:06:30
 
Okay, the TAD 12AU7 is out and the Siemens is back in.

The TAD is just . . . well. . . it is so clean and crisp that LPs sound like CDs. The Siemens imparts a nice bit of warmth and a whisp of mystery to the imaging and sound staging.

I really hate tube-rolling, just like to find the right balance and not mess with it, sit back and enjoy the music for months. I'm getting there.
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JD
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #67 - 01/18/16 at 16:16:25
 
Ok I have to admit, I haven't been playing vinyl because It just wasn't sounding as good as my other sources. You guys motivated me to investigate. So, just took off my platter, belt and  reattached everything because I saw that although my table was dead flat the subplatter was not and it is just too flimsy. I am totally getting the subplatter upgrade for my p6. For some reason Herbie's isocups and balls isolate sterilize the sound and I don't like em under my table.
Tube rolling: I just replaced my front 1963 mazda 12ax7 with an RCA black plate 5751 that I completely forget buying. In the second spot is tele 1959 ribbed plate that plays nicely with others and early 60's mazda in the 12au7 spot.  
Totally got rid of the bass bloat that was just ruining my listening pleasure because i'm just not a big bass guy. I like slam but loose bass drives me nuts.
Took my 3 hours of listening to side 3 and 4 of Robert Plant and Allison Krauss Raising Sand album but aah...success. Good album for me to test cuz although their lyrics are sublime the bass is up front and really strong against their vocal arrangements.
After shoveling for a couple hours time to relax.

JD
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JD
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #68 - 01/18/16 at 16:21:03
 
forgot to mention that replacing my 1964 rca oa3 with a tungsram oa3 from 1957 made a huge difference. It really helped tighten the sound and bass. I think i mentioned it earlier but these Tungsram 1957 oa3 rectifier tubes kick all my other vr75's butt and it is not even close and they are still cheap.

JD
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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #69 - 01/18/16 at 17:13:43
 
Great news Justin! You'll love the sub-platter and what it does. It's a work of art, and the one thing I don't like about the Delrin platter is that you can't see the sub-platter when it's on as you can with the stock Rega platter.

Interesting that you note the Herbie's turntable balls and Iso-Cups are making the sound sterile, I wasted some money on those recently and agree, they do have an appealing liveliness to the dynamics and high end on my system (on top of the PowerBase) but the sound is thinner than I can stand.

My gal is back from her Saturday night sleepover so we're doing other things and I'm not spinning vinyl. I so enjoyed about 15 hours of listening this weekend. And now it's my turn to start shoveling, have about 7" in the driveway since I shoveled yesterday afternoon!
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Archie
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #70 - 01/18/16 at 18:00:17
 
Quote:
... I saw that although my table was dead flat the subplatter was not and it is just too flimsy. I am totally getting the subplatter upgrade for my p6. For some reason Herbie's isocups and balls isolate sterilize the sound and I don't like em under my table.


I think that if our TTs aren't getting the spin of the record right to start with that we have no chance of attaining sublime playback regardless of what else we may do.  Next, if induced vibration isn't effectively dealt with -- same result.  I have a hunch that any visco-elastic footer will impart its own vibrational signature to the playback and color the sound in unpredictable ways.  Once you get the spin and vibrational stuff under control what you hear is what's on the record.  After that I guess it's up to the downstream equipment to "tune the sound."  (Over simplified version!)

I've done things backwards with my TT.  Only after significantly upgrading my cart have I attacked the induced vibration issue (didn't know I had one).  It's worked out since now I can really hear the new cart although I bet I'd like my old one better now then before.

I don't have any data to back this up but it's what I hear and what makes sense to me at this point.
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JD
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Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #71 - 01/18/16 at 18:13:01
 
I agree Archie and even though it's never part of the plan trouble shooting with all this gear does help with problem solving skills. It's cool that there are so many different paths to finding, fixing and enhancing the listening experience.

JD
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #72 - 01/22/16 at 20:48:31
 
Okay, went to storage and came back with a box of tubes. Very different set in now:

0ld RCA bottle type 5Y3 tube
Bottle style RCA OA3
Amperex orange globe 12AX7 in front position
Raytheon 12AX7 in middle position
Siemens 12AU7 (still can't unseat this one, it's got the right warmth)

This complement is just a tad bright, but that's lessening. It has dynamics and a very open sound, lots of vivid imaging.  I am going to try to try to leave this complement in a while. I have one more Amperex 12AX7 I may try in the middle position soon.

I'm back to using TAD KT66. . . just can't take those Russian coin base ones at the moment (and got the quad from Russia in the mail, so two quads!)
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« Last Edit: 01/22/16 at 20:54:41 by Lon »  

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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #73 - 01/25/16 at 19:52:11
 
Well, I did some more rolling and I'm going to stop for now with this complement:

Siemens 12AU7
Amperex Bugleboy 12AX7 middle position
Amperex Orange pring 12AX7 front position

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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #74 - 01/26/16 at 22:00:01
 
One change, and it's been a good one so far.

Telefunken 12AU7
Amperex Bugleboy 12AX7 middle position
Amperex Orange printing 12AX7 front position

The Telefunken in the place of the Siemens has meant a loss of a bit of warmth and bass weight, but an increase in 3Dimensionality and inner detail. Which has led to nice dynamic contrast as well.
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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #75 - 02/09/16 at 15:47:27
 
Okay, I went back to the Siemens and now I'm alternating with an Amperex 12AU7 . . . I like aspects of both, and there's a cool factor having all Amperex . . . but the Siemens has an endearing warmth that is missed by any other tube and really helps a lot of the material to shine.

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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 13010
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #76 - 02/26/16 at 20:34:45
 
Did one last final spell of tube rolling and now I'm sticking a fork in it for a while because it sounds so so good!

'fifties RCA 5V4G
Sylvania OB3 (changing to an 0B3 from an 0A3 was a wise move)
Seimens 12AU7
Two Amperex 12AX7s

Just the right balance between tone and texture. God I love the ZP3!

Also. . . I gave a few records a second wash in the Spin Clean and they are dead quiet when they were crackling a bit before. The Spin Clean
has truly been a good investment, it has amazed me at how restorative it is for my old records.
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« Last Edit: 02/26/16 at 20:36:17 by Lon »  

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,ZROCK2,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DSD,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,SamsonV2+V3;CambrAudi CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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JD
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Posts: 442
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #77 - 04/02/16 at 01:11:58
 
been driving myself crazy because something was not right with the vinyl rig. forgot that i had put in a crappy mid 80's rca 5751 in the front 12ax7 as an experiment...dont bother. Went back to my early 60's 12ax7 Mazda Cifte pair beautiful sound just right combination of sparkle and air.
celebrating with Thad Jones on blue note...delicious

JD
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AH
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Posts: 12
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #78 - 04/21/16 at 10:51:56
 
Apologies for jumping in on this subject with a slightly unrelated posting but I am hoping that someone may find this useful if you have not followed my self build ZP3 saga on the forum. As this is connected to ZP3 tube rolling I felt that it may be good to post it here:

Here is the bit about tube rolling....

"Initially I had some used Mullard ECC 83's whilst I was proving that I could make the ZP3. These sounded pretty good but lacked sparkle (it could be that they were past their best of course!). In the meantime I had read that some people have had good results with Russian 6n2p-EV (Voshkod Rocket brand) valves, so I brought a few to try.
The only problem with using these in a ZP3 is that the heater wiring differs from that on 12AX7's and ECC 83's. To solve this I ordered some extension valve bases (eBay) and I have reworked these to suit.
For any one interested in this, it is a case of removing pin 5 from the bottom of the extension and connecting the position where the valve sits on pin 5 across to pin 9. This needs to be done as the 6n2p-EV does not have an internal centre heater connection to pin 9 (ground on a ZP3) only a screen.
The resulting improvement is very good, bigger sound stage and more "sparkle". Worth a try if anyone is feeling brave in my opinion."

Anyway apologies again for jumping in, hopefully my comments are informative.

All the best

AH
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mark58
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Posts: 4621
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #79 - 03/30/17 at 16:05:43
 
Folks, I'm working on an Amperex "Electronics For Medicine" 1968 12AX7.  Anyone tried one?  I would think that it's identical to a well matched 1968 orange globe 12AX7.  I've tried 1959 and 1961 that are different change code versions...this is I65.  Really not sure what it's worth but tube dealers seem to think they are Gold...at least they price them that way. Any comment would be appreciated. Mark.
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« Last Edit: 03/30/17 at 16:06:22 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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pursuitofnow
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Posts: 163
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #80 - 04/23/17 at 21:39:25
 
I've had my ZP3 almost a year now and recently have done some tube rolling. This is what I've found based on my system and room. The bolded tubes are what I have found to sound the best.

Rectifier
Mullard GZ32
RCA 5Y3GT
RCA 5V4G

Regulators
Sylvania 0A3
RCA OA3

12AX7
Amperex Bugle Boy
Amperex Medical Grade
RCA Black Plate
Raytheon Black Plate

12AU7
RCA 5814WA
Siemens E82CC
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Thorens VN-150
2M Bronze
ZP3
ZSTAGE
_______

Moon 230HAD
ZROCK
_______

SE84UFO
ZSTYX
Dayton PS220-8
DeepOmega 8
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Crazy Bill the Eel Killer
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Tubes Rule !!

Posts: 140
Re: Tube Rolling 12au7, 12ax7
Reply #81 - 09/01/17 at 02:52:04
 
Hello all,

Got some NOS NIB tubes as follows for the ZP3.

RCA mid 60's 12AX7A for the first two positions.

Brimar, mid 60's NOS NIB cryoed CV4003 for the 12AU7 position.

Holy Shit Batman !     What else can I say ?

These tubes, in the ZP3, I'm done and happy.

this is music, pure and simple.

Try these tubes, I can't imagine anyone being disappointed.

Cheers,                       Crazy Bill
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