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changing capacitor values on ERR (Read 610 times)
tom collins
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changing capacitor values on ERR
03/25/14 at 16:19:15
 
Guys:  Before I bother Steve, I thought I would see if you all have some suggestions.
Frankly, I love everything about the ERRs but one thing.  On some vocalists, Cat Stevens and now Shelby Lynne, the range of their voices is congetsted and almost cupped-hands like.  Does anyone have any experience in having changed the values of the Caps that are the crossover on this speaker?

Thanks.

Tom
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ZYGI
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #1 - 03/27/14 at 01:18:52
 
Tom,

Are you saying congested or might it sound more nasal like?

Zygi
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tom collins
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #2 - 03/27/14 at 22:26:08
 
deeper, throatier, recessed is the best i can describe it.
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will
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #3 - 03/30/14 at 02:05:25
 
Tom,

I don't have the ERR but have played with HR-1s. I ended up with minor cap value changes from 3.3 to 3.4 using a Mundorf Supreme 3.3 with a K40Y-9 .1uf wired parallel, taking the range of the tweeter a little lower; and added a .1uf K40 bypass cap from the hot speaker wire terminal in, and bypassing the resistor and main cap so it directly connects the amp to the tweeter, heightening the high highs a bit.

I also really liked the character of Mundorf M-Resist Supreme resistor. Since it was so smooth and solid, it felt less bright, so I compensated using a 2.7 resistor rather than the 3.0 wirewound I had been using.


I tried a number of different caps, and particularly for the bypasses, NOS PIO Russian K40Y-9 really excelled. As an example, some auricaps of the same value sounded unnatural and hard...electronic...whereas the PIOs are smooth and musical.

With the then stock Clarity SA caps, I probably would not have gone with the bypasses as the Clarities were brighter feeling per value than the Mundorfs, but with this Mundorf, the smooth musicality of the K40s bring a balance to the sound that is very real sounding, with more subtle detail, smoothly bringing out textures and ambiance and all very well.

Between the caps and resistor, I made the speakers a bit brighter, but they don't feel bright to me because of the balance and synergy this arrangement gives. The highs are more detailed, without a sense of being overly bright. Beautiful. In retrospect, I think what was happening as I explored (over some months) was that I was optimizing the detail character as much as the quantity, and the deeper I got, the more fascinating the tuning subtleties became.

In my system/room this made the speaker much better... to me anyway.

Maybe you already tried this, but before caps, I was wondering about resistors. It might be interesting to just run a straight copper wire instead of the resister to get a sense of what fully increasing the tweeter's volume does related to this issue....maybe a less resistant resistor would help.
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« Last Edit: 03/30/14 at 02:06:19 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #4 - 03/30/14 at 02:13:17
 
I missed this thread first time around. I agree with Will, try a resistor change. Or I also wonder. .. how old are your tubes (if you're using a tube amp). That sort of recessed and rough vocal sound I have heard when my power tubes had sort of gone past their prime. . . . That was what first came to my mind. I have ERRs that I now have in my parents' system where I do most of my listening. I haven't played around with capacitors, Bob set mine up with me in mind, knowing my experience with the three other sets of speakers he built me before the ERRs, and I think he got that part just right for me. But I have used a number of resistor values and a lower value may also be a fix, especially if your power tubes are in nice shape.
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tom collins
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #5 - 03/31/14 at 23:34:00
 
thanks for your well reasoned replies.  i will consider this.  the tubes are very fresh and i have 3 sets with all 3 displaying the same quality.

tom
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Lon
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #6 - 04/01/14 at 00:32:26
 
Good, it's not the tubes then. Playing with resistors is a good start.
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tom collins
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #7 - 04/04/14 at 19:03:45
 
incidently, i tried something else with these.  i wondered if the lowness of the mid/woof could be partly responsible since they are so far below ear level.  i brought in some standard  bricks and put them under the speaker.  the stage is definitely taller. i think but am not yet sure about the other problem.  i recently changed rooms and sit much closer, so now it is a greater angle for the sound to reach my ears when seated. i think the bass may be a little more defined as well.
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ML
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #8 - 07/27/14 at 22:53:51
 
How to execute Will's recommendation?  What's the flow of energy?  I'm a novice.  Where do the By-passes go?

T = Tweeter
F = Full range driver
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« Last Edit: 07/28/14 at 00:13:13 by ML »  

ERR_Connections_2.jpg
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will
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #9 - 07/28/14 at 19:37:02
 
ML,

I don't have that setup exactly, but I think your R and C connections are all inline on the positive side of the tweeter. These terminals were done to give us easy access to adjust the tweeter volume and frequency range. With the labeling on the photo it would seem 1 would be the beginning and 2 the end of each R and C, so I think it would go like this. (Might want to PM ZYGI to verify).

The path from the + speaker terminal would be an internal wire connecting it to R1. Then R1 to R2 connect by the resistor you choose, lowering the volume of the tweeter relative to that value. Then another internal wire would connect R2 to C1. C1 to C2 is your cap choice, determining the range from the top frequency into the mids the cap allows to get to the tweeter. After C2 the path would go internal to the tweeter. The negative would run from the minus speaker terminal internally to both the radial and tweeter. Since there is only one radial (mid/bass) driver, there would seem no need for a crossover, so the positive and negative probably run straight to the Radial making its volume and range a given, leaving tweeter adjustments to shift the balance for correct phase, and to our tastes and system/room.

To liven up the top a bit, I would try the "bypass" two ways. One would be to connect the .1 cap wired together with the Mundorf (C-1 to C-2). The parallel connection would add the two cap values, your caps together now 3.4 rather than 3.3.

It has been a while since I read up on this, but there is more to it sound-wise than raising the value a little. Something like this: The low value (.1) bypass cap passes the highest frequency information easily since that is all it does, whereas the Mundorf is working with relatively a greater  and more complex frequency range. So theoretically, if the bypass is a good cap, and its inherent qualities are a little different from the Mundorf, its addition can reveal the top with added complexity and clarity.

This is useful for many as a means to improve the tweeter sound less expensively. You can use a less expensive, decent cap for the main job, and add a small value, high quality bypass cap to make the whole sound better. It will be interesting in your case to hear what you hear since your initial caps are very highly thought of, but I suspect the russian PIO bypasses will change it for the better.

Another way to explore would be to bridge across R-1 to C-2 with the .1 cap, literally bypassing the whole tweeter mediating setup. This would pass the very high information without the resistor or the main cap, and in your case, with the 10 ohm resistor, may allow too much of the highs all else being good, but why not try. Or maybe a .047 there could add sparkle without being too obvious.

My resistor is a big Mundorf M-Resist supreme

http://mundorf.com/en/?category=hifi&menu=resistors_fuses&content=mresist_suprem...

and only 2.7. So bypassing the resistor and main cap has less effect. I am using both methods on mine and really like it, using two- .1 caps.

These resistors with my speakers, system and tastes were well worth the money to me but hard to say for others. As an example of costs partsconnexion has an 8.2 ohm and a 10 ohm listed for 16.52.

I wonder.... have you experimented with inexpensive 9 ohm, 8 ohm, or 7 ohm resistors? If you need just a bit more tweeter shimmer and upper detail, a fine line shift could mean a lot.

My K40Y-9 .1uf caps are higher voltage than those you PM'ed about. One looks the same length as those you saw but is 1000v. The other is shorter and is 630v. Both are .1uf. I see no reason that a 200v would not work fine in a speaker. I think I got the higher voltage ones thinking the heavier construction for higher voltage could be good, but I have no idea if this is true. Also this would allow using them in an amp if I ever wanted to.

Lastly, be sure your caps have long enough wires. I got some once that were pretty short.

Hope this covers it.

Let us know what you find.

Will
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« Last Edit: 07/28/14 at 19:39:10 by will »  

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ML
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Re: changing capacitor values on ERR
Reply #10 - 07/28/14 at 20:09:21
 
Thanks.  I've tried 6 ohms, 8 ohms, 10 ohms and 15 ohms.  I love the extra sparkle on the lower ones but the sound overall looses body so I lowered the tweet to 10 ohms to give more body.  I'm in an apartment and wanting to listen at less than 80 db (neighbors).  I think the large room requires some extra bass and upward firing requires more comparative mids so I think tapping into more mid range forward from the tweet might be great. Also I think 9 ohms may be ideal in my room. But increasing the high sparkle might do it too.  So I'll try the bypass first. Thanks.
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