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Power Regeneration & Decware Amps (Read 3088 times)
Palomino
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Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
03/11/14 at 19:33:44
 
I wanted to offer my observations for fellow Decwarians on the addition of a power regenerator to my setup.  

I know there are differing opinions out there about power filtering versus regeneration, but I jumped into the regeneration camp after hearing Lonely Raven’s PS Audio P10 on my Rachael.  It just produced a huge improvement in soundstage, dynamics and my favorite, the bass lines.  So much more articulate.

Well, I didn’t have a spare $3-$4K sitting around so I sought out opinions on PS Audio’s smaller units and their earlier models.  I ended up with a used Power Plant Premier that had been refurb’d and came with a 12 month factory warranty.

I got nearly the same impact with this older unit and I think if you can afford one of the new models or find a reliable one used, it is definitely worth the money.

Beyond the marketing literature, I believe these units help Decware amps kind of like the way the huge caps help the ZMA.  It’s better, smoother delivery of cleaner power.  The ZMA still has more wattage to get the most out of every note, but you come closer to the ZMA with lesser power amps with good power feeding them.  And in line with the marketing hype, these units really do deliver late night listening benefits all day long.

I have found over time when my power is the worst and unfortunately it’s exactly at the time when I listen at night.  The PPP measures the THD of the incoming power and it ranges from low 6% in the early morning to a high of over 9% at 7:00 at night.  And I just looked at my home’s wiring schematic and found out that the power to my listening room is on a separate circuit!   So its that bad on essentially a dedicated circuit.  The PPP cleans up the output to .3% to .5% THD.

So maybe I see bigger benefits to the PPP because my power is just that bad.  Maybe others can weigh in on this.

Currently I am trying to figure out what power cord to run the PPP with.  I have found it is extremely sensitive to power cords and I quickly sorted out the five I have.  Two are banished from my main system forever and I am suspect of two others although one I am still using on my source.

Picking out power cords is my idea of hell, so if anyone has any suggestions, I am open.  I have had good recommendations on the PS Audio cords.  Anything above a AC5 is probably out of my budget.

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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #1 - 03/11/14 at 19:47:46
 
Congrats! I'm so happy that is working out for you.

I find that swapping power cords with the PPP and after the PPP is even more influential on system sound than tube-rolling. You can drive yourself crazy! I did recommend the AC-5 if that's the top of your budget. After a LOT of crawling around and experimenting over months my conclusion is that power cords can really matter, and that putting the best one between the PPP and the wall has always worked out best for me.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #2 - 03/11/14 at 19:53:17
 
Yeah, I may have mentioned this to you in a PM, but I was not getting half the impact I heard with the P10 using one of my DIY cords between the wall and the PPP.  

When I changed out to a better cord, I got a lot closer.  I think there is more there still with the right cord.

I also think I agree with you on your power cord versus tube rolling comment.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #3 - 03/14/14 at 14:24:53
 
Lon, a couple more observations on the PPP.

Given the increase in fidelity the unit adds, it makes deciding between things like tubes and interconnects much easier.  Differences don't seem as subtle.

I put my KT88s back in to see what they sounded like.  Imaging really went down considerably.  So back in the EL34s went.  Maybe its the Hazen mod I can now definitively hear.

I swapped out interconnects and my non-zen's were dark with no extension at all.  Back in went the Zens.

Also, I may need to rebalance the room a bit.  More stronger bass has returned some booming on certain songs.

Anyway, I am still in my honeymoon period with the PPP but it really seems to place a different (and better) lens on my system.  

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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #4 - 03/14/14 at 15:56:42
 
I experienced very similar reactions, and having the PPP made me go over the whole system and wring out even more juicy musical playback.

The next step for me would have been room treatment but then I heeded my inner call to come take care of my parents and I am going to be a renter for some years to come so a whole different set up and yet really good sound. . . I really feel the PPP is the lynchpin that holds it all together.
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #5 - 03/18/14 at 20:07:02
 
My experience with PS Audio power regeneraters is all good. I might be one of the few who like the P300 best. I have owned three different PS Audio regenerators in all, including the PPP, but the PPP continued to have trouble, so I got it fixed and then sold it. The fact that you are experiencing 6-9% THD tells me that you have nothing but good things to hear after it is lowered to .5% The older PS units are balanced power output which I highly regard as well. I wouldn't run a system without one in any case. Not to mention the benefit of the tube wave as well.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #6 - 03/18/14 at 20:50:34
 

What is the "tube wave"? Maybe they call it something different on the P10?
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #7 - 03/19/14 at 00:52:19
 
Not so sure that it exists in the new units. It is made of a pattern of AC waves that have 'tube friendly' harmonics. This is mixed with another pattern that is known as #2. Sorry if that isn't quite right, but suffice it to say that this was a combination of superimposed waves from the multi-wave II+ pack deemed to be best for tube applications.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #8 - 03/19/14 at 01:43:51
 
I believe in the "xStream" power cords from PS Audio there is ferrite impregnated in the jacket. In the "PerfectWave" series (Jewel, AC-3. -5, -10 and -12--the Jewel and the -10 have been discontinued) there is no longer ferrite.

I have a few of the xStream Statement cables in use, both with my guitar amplification (one feeds a PS Audio Duet that my amp and my reverb head are connected to, one feeds the Fender Bassman TV Fifteen amp I use). They're pretty awesome and they make my guitar tones sing! I have xStream Premier SC, AC-5 and AC-10 cords in my second system as well as My Audio Cable Burly cables. My main system is all PerfectWave AC-12, and I don't anticipate replacing any of those, they're amazing.
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« Last Edit: 03/19/14 at 01:45:40 by Lon »  

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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #9 - 03/19/14 at 14:20:45
 
Well I got my first power cord to try from the Cable Co.  An oldie, but supposedly a goodie the Synergistic Research AC Master Coupler Power Cord.  According to legend, this is the cord that put power cords on the audiophile radar.  I decided to give it a try because the sales pitch is that cord came out before copper prices ran up and used, it’s supposed to be a lot of cord for the money.  It’s actually below my budget.

The difference was immediately apparent, but not necessarily in a good way.  The cord hit like a freight train, but I found the bass too boomy and unfocused.  It also cast a nice big soundstage, but it too was not that focused.  Highs seemed rolled off as well.  I’d describe it as a warm sounding cord, probably too warm for a tube amp setup.

What I’m about to say is a power cord non-believer’s evidence of subjective hearing, but after an hour or so, this cord seemed to tighten up in the bass and the imaging seemed to improve.  How can that be?  Where there was nearly distortion before, is full, but tuneful bass.  Soundstage is still big, but there is good focus.  Highs still seem rolled off though.  Mids about the same.

So maybe I just have the powerful suggestive imagination that the anti-cord people speak of, or maybe this cord warmed up or my entire system somehow came into balance?  The amp had been on for hours and only shut off to plug/unplug for A/B comparisons.

I don’t think I will keep this cord, but I’m willing to leave it my system for a while.  I went from this “this baby is coming out today” to “hmmm, it has some redeeming qualities.”  At a minimum, its helping me learn what I want from a power cord.

So on this versus my existing DIY cord: bass slam - improvement.  Musical bass – about the same, but fuller.  Sound stage, - improvement.  Imaging – same.  Nuetrality, so far a no.
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« Last Edit: 03/19/14 at 14:21:23 by Palomino »  

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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #10 - 03/19/14 at 14:36:08
 
You know, I don't know why, but I do find that cords that have been not in use for some time take some hours to focus and start to "be all they can be."

Electrical engineers probably think that's impossible, but I'm not an electrical engineer and 'what I know" doesn't stop me from experiencing some things.

I used to be a skeptic about a lot of cabling and isolation and power treatment things. . . and I still am about some products and claims about them. But I've learned to esperience my experiences and make evaluations from those.

Sounds like you now have two reference points: your DIY cord, and this one. A few more cords would be even more educational perhaps. It IS sort of fun, isn't it?
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #11 - 03/19/14 at 15:32:31
 
Yes it is.  My original attitude was I am going into Power Cord hell, but now I have "chillaxed" as my kids say and am enjoying the journey.

I simply don't understand how people can't hear a power cord difference.  Like I said, the changes aren't always for the better, but they change.  Thanks for helping me understand that I am not completely delusional on the change in this latest power cord.

I also hope to compare this cord to Eric's Pangea.  Cable Co. has a library of cords.  You pay shipping on the trials.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #12 - 03/19/14 at 16:06:01
 
That really does seem like a reasonable way to get a base of experience with different cables. I've never used their lending program, but I have bought from them and their sister company (usedcables.com). And I have gotten good, very on target advice from Ethan who seems the one who answers the phone and emails.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #13 - 03/19/14 at 16:56:22
 

You're welcome to try out the Pangea whenever you want. Keep in mind I'm out of town from early Monday morning to late Tuesday night, and I'm happy to use the factory cord (or one of my Zen Styx DIY) while you sample the Pangea I have.

I'm still looking for one power cord myself. I have Pangea between wall and P10, I need a really good cord between P10 and ZMA. Maybe something nice between P10 and Oppo as well.

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #14 - 03/19/14 at 16:58:06
 
I forgot to add - static is supposed to play a part in power cables. It takes a bit for all that static from shipping, and setup in your system to work it's way out. That's why you see these high end systems with wood blocks/bridges under their power and speaker cords. It's supposed to physically isolate them from the static inducing carpet. Moving/Adjusting a cable once set induces static again, and they need to "warm up" all over again.



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« Last Edit: 03/19/14 at 16:59:37 by Lonely Raven »  
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #15 - 03/19/14 at 17:05:52
 
Interesting.  

I have a ton of static in my room and have now upped my speaker wires - just for fun, but you never know.
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #16 - 03/19/14 at 17:45:32
 
I used to use a Zerostat on my cables.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #17 - 03/19/14 at 18:25:38
 

I used to use Pert, but now I'm more of a Head and Shoulders kinda guy.

You care to elaborate on that, 4? Or are we just stating random facts?  :D

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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #18 - 03/19/14 at 18:29:29
 
$100 on ebay for the zerostat.  It used to be part of the discwasher package.   I still have my discwasher.  That and my turntable are the sole remnants of my 70's stereo.
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #19 - 03/19/14 at 19:06:33
 
Pert sucks man, the chicks know it too. Be advised.  ;D Actually, as stated, this is a hand held device for the nullification of charges by a stream of negative(on the pull stroke), and positive charges(on the release stroke). This levels things out electrostatically. I remember some actually using a clothes dryer product that was sprayed on surfaces to reduce charges. Who knows? Maybe it worked.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #20 - 03/20/14 at 16:53:54
 
OK, so this latest power cord continues to change and for the better I think.  

I contacted the Cable Co. sales guy and he said keep it going till it stops changing, then make up your mind.  He said he hears all the time that even on these used cords it takes up to 40 hours before they stabilize.

So for you cable believers out there, break-in or should I say re-break-in is real, man.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #21 - 03/23/14 at 13:48:56
 
Raven and I had a mini-CDAPS meeting yesterday with the specific purpose of seeing if we could hear differences in power cables on his rig.

We kept his Pangea 9SE running from the wall to the P10, then swapped out the cords from the P10 to the ZMA (which sounded really awesome, btw).

As we exchanged cables, we definitely heard changes, and often we both heard the same change.  Not all the changes were for the better, but they were there.

As another Decwarian recently explained to me, you use your best cable for running from the wall to the power regenerator and then use cables from the power regenerator to the amp for flavor.  Experiment with different cords to add different flavors.

I could not agree more.  I think its all about finding the right combination of PC for your system and tastes.

I have two more PCs on order and hope they provide the right flavors.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #22 - 03/23/14 at 14:02:27
 
Sounds like you had a little fun! Power cords fascinate me. I can still play around a little with my second system (which I never get to listen to any more really) and my Dad's.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #23 - 03/25/14 at 14:37:08
 
Well the latest entry into power cord consideration is the PS Audio AC12.  A used one popped up on eBay at such a low price I panicked after I bought it in fear that it was a fake.  

This cord sounded good when I first put it in and any fears of it being a fake were put to rest.  I let it run in overnight and listened again this morning.

This is an extremely well balanced and articulate cord.  Nothing seems over emphasized despite great clarity.  Also it seems to smooth out the recording.  I listened to several tracks tha either have vocal passages that make you wince or bloated bass that can seem distorted.  Those difficult passages we not only gone but quite enjoyable.

This left me feeling that I didn't necessarily need to keep looking.  Even for a better cord between the PPP and the amp.

I will have an AC5 to compare it to soon to see if the 12 is worth the premium.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #24 - 03/25/14 at 14:53:21
 
Cheesy Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 03/25/14 at 14:53:41 by Lon »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #25 - 03/25/14 at 15:11:09
 
You know T, I'd be very surprised if you felt the AC-5 was great running the PPP from the wall in comparison to the AC-12.

But the AC-5 might be really nice running your source and add a little somethin' somethin' in both clarity and balanced sound.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #26 - 03/25/14 at 15:50:15
 
Yes Lon, that's what I am hoping for.  The ac5 is a bit long to go from the PPP to the amp, but I intend to try it.  I'll also try the SR cord in that position.  The Cable Co guy said it would work there and said people even use it with source equipment.

I can return the SR cord for something else to try between the PPP and the amp as well.  But I feel less a sense of urgency given the performance of this AC12.

Whatever does not stay in my main system will go to the cottage system which is shaping up quite nicely.  A P300 would be a very nice addition if you ever want to part with it Wink
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #27 - 03/25/14 at 16:28:58
 
Don't think that will be leaving my hands. If it changes status in any way it will be me getting it fixed and putting it into my second system. . . .
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #28 - 03/25/14 at 17:26:23
 

Sounds like I might need to get an AC12 (or three) for myself. I'm just having trouble finding an affordable deal. Palomino lucked out on the one he got.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #29 - 03/25/14 at 18:46:02
 
I still can't figure out why he sold it so cheap.  Its in good shape too.

Maybe its hot Wink
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #30 - 03/25/14 at 18:56:27
 
I got my Kimber PK-10 Palladian for cheap too (it runs in to my Emotiva XPA-2 beast...makes it a much-much better Solid State AMP)!!  Decware has so ruined me for great Timbre/Texture, imaging with a large deep and high sound stage......Emotiva is all that is needed for the Living Room Rig/Solid State....spending more on Solid State would not matter!

Only because I bought it from Dave Weinhart of Weinhart Design LA, did I trust it. Once you received your PS AC12...then you new it was okay...worth the minimal risk. Nice find'.  
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« Last Edit: 03/26/14 at 16:31:14 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #31 - 03/25/14 at 19:00:53
 
http://app.audiogon.com/listings?seller_id=284739&show_media=true

...Dave has an AC5 & 12 on there right now....call him and negotiate...he is a cool dude.  
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« Last Edit: 03/26/14 at 16:26:27 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #32 - 03/26/14 at 20:45:03
 

Yeah, that's twice what Palomino paid for his.


Quote:
I still can't figure out why he sold it so cheap.  Its in good shape too.

Maybe its hot Wink



Yeah, I even E-mailed him to see if he had another. He simply said not at this time.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #33 - 03/27/14 at 13:39:08
 
Holy Snikies' guys!

One half of 695. for a AC12? Whoa....I think we can assume "hot". Palomino, I work for the NSA, you're not running a "Ring" or anything are you?!

HEhe, all kidding aside, I could probably get David down to 550. on the AC12 from the 695. ......and that is a bargain.  Peace
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #34 - 03/27/14 at 15:22:06
 
Now you probably understand why I immediately hit Buy Now and then thought "what did I just do?"

I did some power cable testing last with my son who is a musician of sorts.  He's young and has good ears.  Hands down, the AC12 won the battle for the "wall to PPP" cord.  And my DIY cord won the battle for the "PPP to Amp."

I am thinking I will send the SR back and try something else.  I also have another eBay special AC5 coming today (I think).  I'll try it in both positions to see if I like it and what lift I get with the AC12.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #35 - 03/27/14 at 16:01:12
 

Well, keep an eye out for an AC12 or even an AC10 for me. I prefer 1.5m, but I'll take anything from 1m to 2m if it's a good deal.

I'm trying to keep my eyes open, but I'm super busy at work this time year and can't really play around.

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #36 - 03/27/14 at 20:34:54
 
Well, I got the AC5 in.  Its a much more "well broken in" cord than the AC12.  Too long for the PPP to the amp, but I bought it to go to the wall and then the 12 popped up.

Anyway, huge air with the 12/5 combo.  Maybe a little less in the highs.  Richer bass.  I'll give it some time.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #37 - 04/04/14 at 18:14:16
 
I have been using the AC10/AC3 combo for over a year now.  Previously, I had an AC3 running from the wall to the P5 and the upgrade to the AC10 was significant (better bass control, more air, blacker background, etc).  I have always been curious about the AC12, but I got such a good deal on the AC10 I decided to move on concluding (maybe erroneously) that "I got most of the way there".  Maybe I need to revisit.

I doubt you guys are using 25 cent power outlets, but switching from a typical receptacle to the PSA PowerPort was a significant upgrade for me (better clarity, neutrality across entire frequency range, tighter bass).  The PowerPort holds onto the AC10 so tightly it's bordering on ridiculous (in addition to the sound, I thought the screw based back wire mechanism was a nice touch).

I was initially very skeptical that any of these things would make a difference, but (un)fortunately they do...
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #38 - 04/04/14 at 18:56:53
 
Yes, outlets make a difference. When you get to the type of transparency that regenerators and Decware components bring. . .damn seems everything makes a difference!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #39 - 04/04/14 at 20:50:58
 
If it were a perfect world, I would have all power cords, etc. cold welded to the fuse panel! Every connection is a chance for less performance.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #40 - 04/23/14 at 13:21:12
 

So...I wasn't sure which of our threads to put this under.

Do you think it's overboard to wire my dedicated 20amp outlet with 8AWG Zen Styx type wire, all the way back to the panel? Grin  



I've been looking for some 8AWG for about 7 months now and finally stumbled into a deal worth buying...and I supposedly have about 200' here. It's way more than I need to wire Hot, Neutral, and Ground, and make a few power cords...I'll probably still have a bunch left over!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #41 - 04/23/14 at 13:34:01
 
In my uninformed opinion, it's worth a shot if you want to take the time and dedicate the wire to this purpose if not another purpose. I like this sort of experimentation, surprises can happen. I sort of miss owning a place and able to do things you can't do when renting.

The wire may be really good for this purpose. It's pretty darned good for speaker wire (though I do prefer other wire to be honest for my systems).
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« Last Edit: 04/23/14 at 13:41:24 by Lon »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #42 - 04/23/14 at 13:54:50
 
Looks like a good score.  I may buy some if you have extra you want to sell.  I have a set I made for the cottage but I could use a little more length.

Will three lengths of that fit into conduit?  What are you thinking in terms of termination - both at the box and the panel?
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #43 - 04/23/14 at 15:48:55
 

When I had my friend run conduit to the home theater area (3 dedicated 20 amp circuits, one of which is going to the P10), we ran it in 3/4" conduit. He thought that was silly, but did what I asked. I could probably run another 1/2" conduit, but it would take me days to bend and connect what took this guy about an hour; he's really talented - but unfortunately he moved to Denver so I'm on my own.

At the room end, I have one of those PS Audio Solo filtered outlets I found online. They aren't made anymore, but the P10 directions and Ted Smith said they are good. I'm pretty sure it will take 8AWG wire. At the other end, the panel has a screw down wire holder, I'm pretty sure it will take 8awg. If not, then I'll find a single slot 30 amp breaker that will, and just treat everything past that as a 20 amp circuit. I'm pretty sure that would still be in code.

Eventually I still want to add a few ground rods right from the panel. Adding a couple ground rods lowers the resistance to ground, and allows all the noise to drain that way (or so it's been explained to me) Ted Smith at PS Audio did this for his own place, and that pretty much sealed the deal for me as I've been thinking about doing this for a few years now.

Tom, yeah, I'm happy to hook you up with some wire - I've clearly got plenty. And the more I think about it, the more I think I'll only use this for hot and neutral. I'll just double up the ground with standard 10awg copper to lower the resistance...using milspec silverplated copper for a ground seems wasteful.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #44 - 04/23/14 at 16:59:38
 
LR,
You beat me to the punch about using 10 GA. for the earth ground. I have pulled a LOT of cable in my day through conduit, or not, every size imaginable. In a nutshell, you always need larger conduit than you think. 3/4" is small, but better than 1/2", that's for sure. The number of bends and the length will add up quick. I am just hoping that you have access to almost all of them for pulling. The insulation on the 8 GA. Will also determine how difficult this will be. I say go for it, as it is worth it if it can be done at all.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #45 - 04/23/14 at 18:07:04
 
The wire is (literally) Teflon insulated, and it's only a 35'-40' run with three bends, and it's all easily accessible through the garage which is under my audio room. It shouldn't be a big deal. Tight, probably, but not a big deal.

I might hit you up for tips on adding a couple copper ground rods if you've done it before.

~Eric~

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« Last Edit: 04/23/14 at 18:23:05 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #46 - 04/23/14 at 18:12:40
 
The stuff is aircraft wire and is really abrasion resistant and slips through without much friction.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #47 - 04/23/14 at 18:57:25
 
40 ft. That's fantastic! And a garage access, well now, that changes everything. I get these visions of attics or craw spaces and it makes me sweat. I was kinda lucky in my house as well. One good part about a dedicated line is that you can run it away from other power, etc.
 Now, about the ground rods thing. It's another situation of what is your situation for placement,etc. Even what kind of soil. I mean some soil is difficult to establish a decent ground in, but in that case, I just add rods until I'm happy with the results. At my house, there was an available well pump casing. Hard to beat a 25' rod! Sometimes it works out best if say, 3 rods are separated by some distance.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #48 - 05/01/14 at 14:24:31
 
I have been having trouble with my PPP shutting down and may have to send it in.  It's not the infamous issues where the regenerator does not work.  It simply seems to shut down randomly during periods of high THD.  I've contacted PS Audio and have a dialogue going but they say they have never heard of such high THD.  This morning at 6:00 am is was 9.5%.  Last night it was still high (about 8.4%) and did not shut down the whole evening.

Anyway, I started the evening without it to do just a little A/B comparison in case I have to send it in.  What kind of sound will I get?

Well I thought, you know this sounds pretty good.  Imaging was still there.  Clarity was good.  Bass a bit soft, but not bad.  Still pretty good bass definition.

Then I plugged just the amp into the PPP.  BIG difference for the better.  Everything was more articulated, soundstage was bigger and bass was more precise and louder.

I sure hope I don't have to send this in.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #49 - 05/01/14 at 15:15:52
 
 I may have mentioned before that I used to own a PPP that had similar issues. It would click in the middle of the night as though someone was trying to turn it on. I figured that I was dodging a bullet by sending it in. They did their thing at the PS Audio shop, but it didn't really help. That's when I looked into a balanced power unit from BPT.  For my situation, it worked very well. Since I like try so many things, I am now using a P500. It had some of it's own issues, but I think that I solved them. Overall, I am a big PS Audio fan.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #50 - 05/01/14 at 15:19:09
 
I was wondering if something at the wall would help this.  What do the BPT units run?  Does PS audio offer something similar?

Edit Found BPT on the web.  Still looking for other solutions.  I may try something in between the PPP and the wall and see if it helps.  I have a tripplite isolation transformer I could stick in there.
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« Last Edit: 05/01/14 at 15:34:09 by Palomino »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #51 - 05/01/14 at 15:51:15
 

I've got Triplite 1500 watt isolation transformer, 1200 watt power ocnditioner, and that PS Audio Solo which I've not installed yet. you're welcome to borrow any of them for testing - though I'm hoping to install the Solo soon, I just need a hand pulling my projection screen down and a few cuts into the wall.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #52 - 05/01/14 at 16:00:28
 
Yes, there may be a few options, but then considering your problem as being too high of a THD, I'm not so sure that solution would be plausible. The BPT products are very good for supplying balanced power, but in order to feed a PPP, you would need to purchase the BPT product that would be able to handle a 20 amp load, just to have that margin for the PPP. I'm really thinking that there is an issue with the PPP itself, seeing how it is reading a crazy amount of incoming THD. First step in my thinking is to get it checked out. If, after that point, you still want to provide a cleaner power from the wall Before it gets to the PPP, then perhaps a PS Audio 'Ultimate Outlet' would be more practical. It will be able to clean the incoming power and not have current limitation. I cannot think of a device that would help lower the THD Before the PP, in spite of the fact that I wonder if a balanced power unit (BPT) would help cancel the THD if it is a common mode noise sort of thing. You did mention a Tripplite isolation transformer, and I also am a big fan of these devices, but only for the proper application. By this I mean that the Tripplite is compensating mostly for the voltage variations, and the PPP is already designed to do that. Also, I am not so sure that I would like the idea of using a transformer between the wall and the PPP. Sorry if I am talking in circles here, it's just my continued train of thought W/O editing. In conclusion, I would definitely want the PP to be verified as good to go before I try solve the problem by use of additional filters, etc.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #53 - 05/01/14 at 16:01:21
 
Thanks.  I may take you up on it Raven.

I've been doing some research into power standards.  I'm not sure I understand everything but it looks like about 3-5% THD is the standard.

I put a call in the ComEd and they are going to look into it.  They may even send someone out to investigate.
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« Last Edit: 05/01/14 at 16:02:58 by Palomino »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #54 - 05/01/14 at 16:03:59
 
 Good thinking about the power company. In the past, I have tried to get action, but sometimes they don't respond, or BS me in a way that they think I will just accept their answer.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #55 - 05/01/14 at 16:08:34
 
I hate shipping stuff.  Just a peeve of mine.

That along with the intermittent nature of it, has me thinking its still external.  I listened for over 3 hours last night with no issues.

I also saw that overnight, when I had the PPP turned off, it was on this morning, so something triggered it.

I did put the PPP on other circuits throughout the house and its the same THD reading everywhere.

Power co. says someone will give me a call to discuss before sending somebody out.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #56 - 05/01/14 at 17:15:24
 
 Well, I wouldn't be opposed to you trying different things to see their influence on the problem. It will give more information for you to use. I just remember that when I had such issues with my PPP, I finally decided to go another route. In fact, I have ended up with the older P500 unit with no issues so far. Having said that, I encourage you to explore all other possibilities first. If this is a doable thing, then it is well worth keeping with the PPP.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #57 - 05/01/14 at 17:49:49
 
To be honest, I think there's a good chance the problem is outside the PPP. Good idea to get the power company out there. I've had nothing like that happen with my PPP. Every now and then I get some clicking that lasts a few minutes and goes away for weeks.

I don't recommend those Tripplite transformers, they added a hash to my system.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #58 - 05/21/14 at 14:15:34
 
Well, just an update.  The unit has been running very steady recently so I checked the THD.  It was at 3.6%, down from running consistently in the 8-10% range.

I called the Power company a couple weeks ago, but they never got back to me.  They may have sent someone out without my knowledge.

Anyway, it will be hard to part with this unit if I do end up sending it in.  My cottage system just does not sound nearly as good and I believe one significant variable is that PPP not being in the system.  The other being room treatments.  I think I need some first reflection point panels for better imaging.
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