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Power Regeneration & Decware Amps (Read 7017 times)
Palomino
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Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
03/11/14 at 19:33:44
 
I wanted to offer my observations for fellow Decwarians on the addition of a power regenerator to my setup.  

I know there are differing opinions out there about power filtering versus regeneration, but I jumped into the regeneration camp after hearing Lonely Raven’s PS Audio P10 on my Rachael.  It just produced a huge improvement in soundstage, dynamics and my favorite, the bass lines.  So much more articulate.

Well, I didn’t have a spare $3-$4K sitting around so I sought out opinions on PS Audio’s smaller units and their earlier models.  I ended up with a used Power Plant Premier that had been refurb’d and came with a 12 month factory warranty.

I got nearly the same impact with this older unit and I think if you can afford one of the new models or find a reliable one used, it is definitely worth the money.

Beyond the marketing literature, I believe these units help Decware amps kind of like the way the huge caps help the ZMA.  It’s better, smoother delivery of cleaner power.  The ZMA still has more wattage to get the most out of every note, but you come closer to the ZMA with lesser power amps with good power feeding them.  And in line with the marketing hype, these units really do deliver late night listening benefits all day long.

I have found over time when my power is the worst and unfortunately it’s exactly at the time when I listen at night.  The PPP measures the THD of the incoming power and it ranges from low 6% in the early morning to a high of over 9% at 7:00 at night.  And I just looked at my home’s wiring schematic and found out that the power to my listening room is on a separate circuit!   So its that bad on essentially a dedicated circuit.  The PPP cleans up the output to .3% to .5% THD.

So maybe I see bigger benefits to the PPP because my power is just that bad.  Maybe others can weigh in on this.

Currently I am trying to figure out what power cord to run the PPP with.  I have found it is extremely sensitive to power cords and I quickly sorted out the five I have.  Two are banished from my main system forever and I am suspect of two others although one I am still using on my source.

Picking out power cords is my idea of hell, so if anyone has any suggestions, I am open.  I have had good recommendations on the PS Audio cords.  Anything above a AC5 is probably out of my budget.

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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #1 - 03/11/14 at 19:47:46
 
Congrats! I'm so happy that is working out for you.

I find that swapping power cords with the PPP and after the PPP is even more influential on system sound than tube-rolling. You can drive yourself crazy! I did recommend the AC-5 if that's the top of your budget. After a LOT of crawling around and experimenting over months my conclusion is that power cords can really matter, and that putting the best one between the PPP and the wall has always worked out best for me.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #2 - 03/11/14 at 19:53:17
 
Yeah, I may have mentioned this to you in a PM, but I was not getting half the impact I heard with the P10 using one of my DIY cords between the wall and the PPP.  

When I changed out to a better cord, I got a lot closer.  I think there is more there still with the right cord.

I also think I agree with you on your power cord versus tube rolling comment.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #3 - 03/14/14 at 14:24:53
 
Lon, a couple more observations on the PPP.

Given the increase in fidelity the unit adds, it makes deciding between things like tubes and interconnects much easier.  Differences don't seem as subtle.

I put my KT88s back in to see what they sounded like.  Imaging really went down considerably.  So back in the EL34s went.  Maybe its the Hazen mod I can now definitively hear.

I swapped out interconnects and my non-zen's were dark with no extension at all.  Back in went the Zens.

Also, I may need to rebalance the room a bit.  More stronger bass has returned some booming on certain songs.

Anyway, I am still in my honeymoon period with the PPP but it really seems to place a different (and better) lens on my system.  

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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #4 - 03/14/14 at 15:56:42
 
I experienced very similar reactions, and having the PPP made me go over the whole system and wring out even more juicy musical playback.

The next step for me would have been room treatment but then I heeded my inner call to come take care of my parents and I am going to be a renter for some years to come so a whole different set up and yet really good sound. . . I really feel the PPP is the lynchpin that holds it all together.
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #5 - 03/18/14 at 20:07:02
 
My experience with PS Audio power regeneraters is all good. I might be one of the few who like the P300 best. I have owned three different PS Audio regenerators in all, including the PPP, but the PPP continued to have trouble, so I got it fixed and then sold it. The fact that you are experiencing 6-9% THD tells me that you have nothing but good things to hear after it is lowered to .5% The older PS units are balanced power output which I highly regard as well. I wouldn't run a system without one in any case. Not to mention the benefit of the tube wave as well.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #6 - 03/18/14 at 20:50:34
 

What is the "tube wave"? Maybe they call it something different on the P10?
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #7 - 03/19/14 at 00:52:19
 
Not so sure that it exists in the new units. It is made of a pattern of AC waves that have 'tube friendly' harmonics. This is mixed with another pattern that is known as #2. Sorry if that isn't quite right, but suffice it to say that this was a combination of superimposed waves from the multi-wave II+ pack deemed to be best for tube applications.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #8 - 03/19/14 at 01:43:51
 
I believe in the "xStream" power cords from PS Audio there is ferrite impregnated in the jacket. In the "PerfectWave" series (Jewel, AC-3. -5, -10 and -12--the Jewel and the -10 have been discontinued) there is no longer ferrite.

I have a few of the xStream Statement cables in use, both with my guitar amplification (one feeds a PS Audio Duet that my amp and my reverb head are connected to, one feeds the Fender Bassman TV Fifteen amp I use). They're pretty awesome and they make my guitar tones sing! I have xStream Premier SC, AC-5 and AC-10 cords in my second system as well as My Audio Cable Burly cables. My main system is all PerfectWave AC-12, and I don't anticipate replacing any of those, they're amazing.
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« Last Edit: 03/19/14 at 01:45:40 by Lon »  

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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #9 - 03/19/14 at 14:20:45
 
Well I got my first power cord to try from the Cable Co.  An oldie, but supposedly a goodie the Synergistic Research AC Master Coupler Power Cord.  According to legend, this is the cord that put power cords on the audiophile radar.  I decided to give it a try because the sales pitch is that cord came out before copper prices ran up and used, it’s supposed to be a lot of cord for the money.  It’s actually below my budget.

The difference was immediately apparent, but not necessarily in a good way.  The cord hit like a freight train, but I found the bass too boomy and unfocused.  It also cast a nice big soundstage, but it too was not that focused.  Highs seemed rolled off as well.  I’d describe it as a warm sounding cord, probably too warm for a tube amp setup.

What I’m about to say is a power cord non-believer’s evidence of subjective hearing, but after an hour or so, this cord seemed to tighten up in the bass and the imaging seemed to improve.  How can that be?  Where there was nearly distortion before, is full, but tuneful bass.  Soundstage is still big, but there is good focus.  Highs still seem rolled off though.  Mids about the same.

So maybe I just have the powerful suggestive imagination that the anti-cord people speak of, or maybe this cord warmed up or my entire system somehow came into balance?  The amp had been on for hours and only shut off to plug/unplug for A/B comparisons.

I don’t think I will keep this cord, but I’m willing to leave it my system for a while.  I went from this “this baby is coming out today” to “hmmm, it has some redeeming qualities.”  At a minimum, its helping me learn what I want from a power cord.

So on this versus my existing DIY cord: bass slam - improvement.  Musical bass – about the same, but fuller.  Sound stage, - improvement.  Imaging – same.  Nuetrality, so far a no.
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« Last Edit: 03/19/14 at 14:21:23 by Palomino »  

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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #10 - 03/19/14 at 14:36:08
 
You know, I don't know why, but I do find that cords that have been not in use for some time take some hours to focus and start to "be all they can be."

Electrical engineers probably think that's impossible, but I'm not an electrical engineer and 'what I know" doesn't stop me from experiencing some things.

I used to be a skeptic about a lot of cabling and isolation and power treatment things. . . and I still am about some products and claims about them. But I've learned to esperience my experiences and make evaluations from those.

Sounds like you now have two reference points: your DIY cord, and this one. A few more cords would be even more educational perhaps. It IS sort of fun, isn't it?
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #11 - 03/19/14 at 15:32:31
 
Yes it is.  My original attitude was I am going into Power Cord hell, but now I have "chillaxed" as my kids say and am enjoying the journey.

I simply don't understand how people can't hear a power cord difference.  Like I said, the changes aren't always for the better, but they change.  Thanks for helping me understand that I am not completely delusional on the change in this latest power cord.

I also hope to compare this cord to Eric's Pangea.  Cable Co. has a library of cords.  You pay shipping on the trials.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #12 - 03/19/14 at 16:06:01
 
That really does seem like a reasonable way to get a base of experience with different cables. I've never used their lending program, but I have bought from them and their sister company (usedcables.com). And I have gotten good, very on target advice from Ethan who seems the one who answers the phone and emails.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #13 - 03/19/14 at 16:56:22
 

You're welcome to try out the Pangea whenever you want. Keep in mind I'm out of town from early Monday morning to late Tuesday night, and I'm happy to use the factory cord (or one of my Zen Styx DIY) while you sample the Pangea I have.

I'm still looking for one power cord myself. I have Pangea between wall and P10, I need a really good cord between P10 and ZMA. Maybe something nice between P10 and Oppo as well.

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #14 - 03/19/14 at 16:58:06
 
I forgot to add - static is supposed to play a part in power cables. It takes a bit for all that static from shipping, and setup in your system to work it's way out. That's why you see these high end systems with wood blocks/bridges under their power and speaker cords. It's supposed to physically isolate them from the static inducing carpet. Moving/Adjusting a cable once set induces static again, and they need to "warm up" all over again.



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« Last Edit: 03/19/14 at 16:59:37 by Lonely Raven »  
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #15 - 03/19/14 at 17:05:52
 
Interesting.  

I have a ton of static in my room and have now upped my speaker wires - just for fun, but you never know.
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #16 - 03/19/14 at 17:45:32
 
I used to use a Zerostat on my cables.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #17 - 03/19/14 at 18:25:38
 

I used to use Pert, but now I'm more of a Head and Shoulders kinda guy.

You care to elaborate on that, 4? Or are we just stating random facts?  :D

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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #18 - 03/19/14 at 18:29:29
 
$100 on ebay for the zerostat.  It used to be part of the discwasher package.   I still have my discwasher.  That and my turntable are the sole remnants of my 70's stereo.
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4krow
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #19 - 03/19/14 at 19:06:33
 
Pert sucks man, the chicks know it too. Be advised.  ;D Actually, as stated, this is a hand held device for the nullification of charges by a stream of negative(on the pull stroke), and positive charges(on the release stroke). This levels things out electrostatically. I remember some actually using a clothes dryer product that was sprayed on surfaces to reduce charges. Who knows? Maybe it worked.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #20 - 03/20/14 at 16:53:54
 
OK, so this latest power cord continues to change and for the better I think.  

I contacted the Cable Co. sales guy and he said keep it going till it stops changing, then make up your mind.  He said he hears all the time that even on these used cords it takes up to 40 hours before they stabilize.

So for you cable believers out there, break-in or should I say re-break-in is real, man.
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Palomino
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #21 - 03/23/14 at 13:48:56
 
Raven and I had a mini-CDAPS meeting yesterday with the specific purpose of seeing if we could hear differences in power cables on his rig.

We kept his Pangea 9SE running from the wall to the P10, then swapped out the cords from the P10 to the ZMA (which sounded really awesome, btw).

As we exchanged cables, we definitely heard changes, and often we both heard the same change.  Not all the changes were for the better, but they were there.

As another Decwarian recently explained to me, you use your best cable for running from the wall to the power regenerator and then use cables from the power regenerator to the amp for flavor.  Experiment with different cords to add different flavors.

I could not agree more.  I think its all about finding the right combination of PC for your system and tastes.

I have two more PCs on order and hope they provide the right flavors.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #22 - 03/23/14 at 14:02:27
 
Sounds like you had a little fun! Power cords fascinate me. I can still play around a little with my second system (which I never get to listen to any more really) and my Dad's.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #23 - 03/25/14 at 14:37:08
 
Well the latest entry into power cord consideration is the PS Audio AC12.  A used one popped up on eBay at such a low price I panicked after I bought it in fear that it was a fake.  

This cord sounded good when I first put it in and any fears of it being a fake were put to rest.  I let it run in overnight and listened again this morning.

This is an extremely well balanced and articulate cord.  Nothing seems over emphasized despite great clarity.  Also it seems to smooth out the recording.  I listened to several tracks tha either have vocal passages that make you wince or bloated bass that can seem distorted.  Those difficult passages we not only gone but quite enjoyable.

This left me feeling that I didn't necessarily need to keep looking.  Even for a better cord between the PPP and the amp.

I will have an AC5 to compare it to soon to see if the 12 is worth the premium.
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Lon
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #24 - 03/25/14 at 14:53:21
 
Cheesy Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 03/25/14 at 14:53:41 by Lon »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #25 - 03/25/14 at 15:11:09
 
You know T, I'd be very surprised if you felt the AC-5 was great running the PPP from the wall in comparison to the AC-12.

But the AC-5 might be really nice running your source and add a little somethin' somethin' in both clarity and balanced sound.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #26 - 03/25/14 at 15:50:15
 
Yes Lon, that's what I am hoping for.  The ac5 is a bit long to go from the PPP to the amp, but I intend to try it.  I'll also try the SR cord in that position.  The Cable Co guy said it would work there and said people even use it with source equipment.

I can return the SR cord for something else to try between the PPP and the amp as well.  But I feel less a sense of urgency given the performance of this AC12.

Whatever does not stay in my main system will go to the cottage system which is shaping up quite nicely.  A P300 would be a very nice addition if you ever want to part with it Wink
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #27 - 03/25/14 at 16:28:58
 
Don't think that will be leaving my hands. If it changes status in any way it will be me getting it fixed and putting it into my second system. . . .
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #28 - 03/25/14 at 17:26:23
 

Sounds like I might need to get an AC12 (or three) for myself. I'm just having trouble finding an affordable deal. Palomino lucked out on the one he got.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #29 - 03/25/14 at 18:46:02
 
I still can't figure out why he sold it so cheap.  Its in good shape too.

Maybe its hot Wink
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #30 - 03/25/14 at 18:56:27
 
I got my Kimber PK-10 Palladian for cheap too (it runs in to my Emotiva XPA-2 beast...makes it a much-much better Solid State AMP)!!  Decware has so ruined me for great Timbre/Texture, imaging with a large deep and high sound stage......Emotiva is all that is needed for the Living Room Rig/Solid State....spending more on Solid State would not matter!

Only because I bought it from Dave Weinhart of Weinhart Design LA, did I trust it. Once you received your PS AC12...then you new it was okay...worth the minimal risk. Nice find'.  
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« Last Edit: 03/26/14 at 16:31:14 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #31 - 03/25/14 at 19:00:53
 
http://app.audiogon.com/listings?seller_id=284739&show_media=true

...Dave has an AC5 & 12 on there right now....call him and negotiate...he is a cool dude.  
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« Last Edit: 03/26/14 at 16:26:27 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #32 - 03/26/14 at 20:45:03
 

Yeah, that's twice what Palomino paid for his.


Quote:
I still can't figure out why he sold it so cheap.  Its in good shape too.

Maybe its hot Wink



Yeah, I even E-mailed him to see if he had another. He simply said not at this time.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #33 - 03/27/14 at 13:39:08
 
Holy Snikies' guys!

One half of 695. for a AC12? Whoa....I think we can assume "hot". Palomino, I work for the NSA, you're not running a "Ring" or anything are you?!

HEhe, all kidding aside, I could probably get David down to 550. on the AC12 from the 695. ......and that is a bargain.  Peace
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #34 - 03/27/14 at 15:22:06
 
Now you probably understand why I immediately hit Buy Now and then thought "what did I just do?"

I did some power cable testing last with my son who is a musician of sorts.  He's young and has good ears.  Hands down, the AC12 won the battle for the "wall to PPP" cord.  And my DIY cord won the battle for the "PPP to Amp."

I am thinking I will send the SR back and try something else.  I also have another eBay special AC5 coming today (I think).  I'll try it in both positions to see if I like it and what lift I get with the AC12.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #35 - 03/27/14 at 16:01:12
 

Well, keep an eye out for an AC12 or even an AC10 for me. I prefer 1.5m, but I'll take anything from 1m to 2m if it's a good deal.

I'm trying to keep my eyes open, but I'm super busy at work this time year and can't really play around.

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #36 - 03/27/14 at 20:34:54
 
Well, I got the AC5 in.  Its a much more "well broken in" cord than the AC12.  Too long for the PPP to the amp, but I bought it to go to the wall and then the 12 popped up.

Anyway, huge air with the 12/5 combo.  Maybe a little less in the highs.  Richer bass.  I'll give it some time.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #37 - 04/04/14 at 18:14:16
 
I have been using the AC10/AC3 combo for over a year now.  Previously, I had an AC3 running from the wall to the P5 and the upgrade to the AC10 was significant (better bass control, more air, blacker background, etc).  I have always been curious about the AC12, but I got such a good deal on the AC10 I decided to move on concluding (maybe erroneously) that "I got most of the way there".  Maybe I need to revisit.

I doubt you guys are using 25 cent power outlets, but switching from a typical receptacle to the PSA PowerPort was a significant upgrade for me (better clarity, neutrality across entire frequency range, tighter bass).  The PowerPort holds onto the AC10 so tightly it's bordering on ridiculous (in addition to the sound, I thought the screw based back wire mechanism was a nice touch).

I was initially very skeptical that any of these things would make a difference, but (un)fortunately they do...
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #38 - 04/04/14 at 18:56:53
 
Yes, outlets make a difference. When you get to the type of transparency that regenerators and Decware components bring. . .damn seems everything makes a difference!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #39 - 04/04/14 at 20:50:58
 
If it were a perfect world, I would have all power cords, etc. cold welded to the fuse panel! Every connection is a chance for less performance.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #40 - 04/23/14 at 13:21:12
 

So...I wasn't sure which of our threads to put this under.

Do you think it's overboard to wire my dedicated 20amp outlet with 8AWG Zen Styx type wire, all the way back to the panel? Grin  



I've been looking for some 8AWG for about 7 months now and finally stumbled into a deal worth buying...and I supposedly have about 200' here. It's way more than I need to wire Hot, Neutral, and Ground, and make a few power cords...I'll probably still have a bunch left over!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #41 - 04/23/14 at 13:34:01
 
In my uninformed opinion, it's worth a shot if you want to take the time and dedicate the wire to this purpose if not another purpose. I like this sort of experimentation, surprises can happen. I sort of miss owning a place and able to do things you can't do when renting.

The wire may be really good for this purpose. It's pretty darned good for speaker wire (though I do prefer other wire to be honest for my systems).
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« Last Edit: 04/23/14 at 13:41:24 by Lon »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #42 - 04/23/14 at 13:54:50
 
Looks like a good score.  I may buy some if you have extra you want to sell.  I have a set I made for the cottage but I could use a little more length.

Will three lengths of that fit into conduit?  What are you thinking in terms of termination - both at the box and the panel?
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #43 - 04/23/14 at 15:48:55
 

When I had my friend run conduit to the home theater area (3 dedicated 20 amp circuits, one of which is going to the P10), we ran it in 3/4" conduit. He thought that was silly, but did what I asked. I could probably run another 1/2" conduit, but it would take me days to bend and connect what took this guy about an hour; he's really talented - but unfortunately he moved to Denver so I'm on my own.

At the room end, I have one of those PS Audio Solo filtered outlets I found online. They aren't made anymore, but the P10 directions and Ted Smith said they are good. I'm pretty sure it will take 8AWG wire. At the other end, the panel has a screw down wire holder, I'm pretty sure it will take 8awg. If not, then I'll find a single slot 30 amp breaker that will, and just treat everything past that as a 20 amp circuit. I'm pretty sure that would still be in code.

Eventually I still want to add a few ground rods right from the panel. Adding a couple ground rods lowers the resistance to ground, and allows all the noise to drain that way (or so it's been explained to me) Ted Smith at PS Audio did this for his own place, and that pretty much sealed the deal for me as I've been thinking about doing this for a few years now.

Tom, yeah, I'm happy to hook you up with some wire - I've clearly got plenty. And the more I think about it, the more I think I'll only use this for hot and neutral. I'll just double up the ground with standard 10awg copper to lower the resistance...using milspec silverplated copper for a ground seems wasteful.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #44 - 04/23/14 at 16:59:38
 
LR,
You beat me to the punch about using 10 GA. for the earth ground. I have pulled a LOT of cable in my day through conduit, or not, every size imaginable. In a nutshell, you always need larger conduit than you think. 3/4" is small, but better than 1/2", that's for sure. The number of bends and the length will add up quick. I am just hoping that you have access to almost all of them for pulling. The insulation on the 8 GA. Will also determine how difficult this will be. I say go for it, as it is worth it if it can be done at all.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #45 - 04/23/14 at 18:07:04
 
The wire is (literally) Teflon insulated, and it's only a 35'-40' run with three bends, and it's all easily accessible through the garage which is under my audio room. It shouldn't be a big deal. Tight, probably, but not a big deal.

I might hit you up for tips on adding a couple copper ground rods if you've done it before.

~Eric~

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« Last Edit: 04/23/14 at 18:23:05 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #46 - 04/23/14 at 18:12:40
 
The stuff is aircraft wire and is really abrasion resistant and slips through without much friction.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #47 - 04/23/14 at 18:57:25
 
40 ft. That's fantastic! And a garage access, well now, that changes everything. I get these visions of attics or craw spaces and it makes me sweat. I was kinda lucky in my house as well. One good part about a dedicated line is that you can run it away from other power, etc.
 Now, about the ground rods thing. It's another situation of what is your situation for placement,etc. Even what kind of soil. I mean some soil is difficult to establish a decent ground in, but in that case, I just add rods until I'm happy with the results. At my house, there was an available well pump casing. Hard to beat a 25' rod! Sometimes it works out best if say, 3 rods are separated by some distance.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #48 - 05/01/14 at 14:24:31
 
I have been having trouble with my PPP shutting down and may have to send it in.  It's not the infamous issues where the regenerator does not work.  It simply seems to shut down randomly during periods of high THD.  I've contacted PS Audio and have a dialogue going but they say they have never heard of such high THD.  This morning at 6:00 am is was 9.5%.  Last night it was still high (about 8.4%) and did not shut down the whole evening.

Anyway, I started the evening without it to do just a little A/B comparison in case I have to send it in.  What kind of sound will I get?

Well I thought, you know this sounds pretty good.  Imaging was still there.  Clarity was good.  Bass a bit soft, but not bad.  Still pretty good bass definition.

Then I plugged just the amp into the PPP.  BIG difference for the better.  Everything was more articulated, soundstage was bigger and bass was more precise and louder.

I sure hope I don't have to send this in.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #49 - 05/01/14 at 15:15:52
 
 I may have mentioned before that I used to own a PPP that had similar issues. It would click in the middle of the night as though someone was trying to turn it on. I figured that I was dodging a bullet by sending it in. They did their thing at the PS Audio shop, but it didn't really help. That's when I looked into a balanced power unit from BPT.  For my situation, it worked very well. Since I like try so many things, I am now using a P500. It had some of it's own issues, but I think that I solved them. Overall, I am a big PS Audio fan.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #50 - 05/01/14 at 15:19:09
 
I was wondering if something at the wall would help this.  What do the BPT units run?  Does PS audio offer something similar?

Edit Found BPT on the web.  Still looking for other solutions.  I may try something in between the PPP and the wall and see if it helps.  I have a tripplite isolation transformer I could stick in there.
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« Last Edit: 05/01/14 at 15:34:09 by Palomino »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #51 - 05/01/14 at 15:51:15
 

I've got Triplite 1500 watt isolation transformer, 1200 watt power ocnditioner, and that PS Audio Solo which I've not installed yet. you're welcome to borrow any of them for testing - though I'm hoping to install the Solo soon, I just need a hand pulling my projection screen down and a few cuts into the wall.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #52 - 05/01/14 at 16:00:28
 
Yes, there may be a few options, but then considering your problem as being too high of a THD, I'm not so sure that solution would be plausible. The BPT products are very good for supplying balanced power, but in order to feed a PPP, you would need to purchase the BPT product that would be able to handle a 20 amp load, just to have that margin for the PPP. I'm really thinking that there is an issue with the PPP itself, seeing how it is reading a crazy amount of incoming THD. First step in my thinking is to get it checked out. If, after that point, you still want to provide a cleaner power from the wall Before it gets to the PPP, then perhaps a PS Audio 'Ultimate Outlet' would be more practical. It will be able to clean the incoming power and not have current limitation. I cannot think of a device that would help lower the THD Before the PP, in spite of the fact that I wonder if a balanced power unit (BPT) would help cancel the THD if it is a common mode noise sort of thing. You did mention a Tripplite isolation transformer, and I also am a big fan of these devices, but only for the proper application. By this I mean that the Tripplite is compensating mostly for the voltage variations, and the PPP is already designed to do that. Also, I am not so sure that I would like the idea of using a transformer between the wall and the PPP. Sorry if I am talking in circles here, it's just my continued train of thought W/O editing. In conclusion, I would definitely want the PP to be verified as good to go before I try solve the problem by use of additional filters, etc.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #53 - 05/01/14 at 16:01:21
 
Thanks.  I may take you up on it Raven.

I've been doing some research into power standards.  I'm not sure I understand everything but it looks like about 3-5% THD is the standard.

I put a call in the ComEd and they are going to look into it.  They may even send someone out to investigate.
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« Last Edit: 05/01/14 at 16:02:58 by Palomino »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #54 - 05/01/14 at 16:03:59
 
 Good thinking about the power company. In the past, I have tried to get action, but sometimes they don't respond, or BS me in a way that they think I will just accept their answer.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #55 - 05/01/14 at 16:08:34
 
I hate shipping stuff.  Just a peeve of mine.

That along with the intermittent nature of it, has me thinking its still external.  I listened for over 3 hours last night with no issues.

I also saw that overnight, when I had the PPP turned off, it was on this morning, so something triggered it.

I did put the PPP on other circuits throughout the house and its the same THD reading everywhere.

Power co. says someone will give me a call to discuss before sending somebody out.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #56 - 05/01/14 at 17:15:24
 
 Well, I wouldn't be opposed to you trying different things to see their influence on the problem. It will give more information for you to use. I just remember that when I had such issues with my PPP, I finally decided to go another route. In fact, I have ended up with the older P500 unit with no issues so far. Having said that, I encourage you to explore all other possibilities first. If this is a doable thing, then it is well worth keeping with the PPP.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #57 - 05/01/14 at 17:49:49
 
To be honest, I think there's a good chance the problem is outside the PPP. Good idea to get the power company out there. I've had nothing like that happen with my PPP. Every now and then I get some clicking that lasts a few minutes and goes away for weeks.

I don't recommend those Tripplite transformers, they added a hash to my system.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #58 - 05/21/14 at 14:15:34
 
Well, just an update.  The unit has been running very steady recently so I checked the THD.  It was at 3.6%, down from running consistently in the 8-10% range.

I called the Power company a couple weeks ago, but they never got back to me.  They may have sent someone out without my knowledge.

Anyway, it will be hard to part with this unit if I do end up sending it in.  My cottage system just does not sound nearly as good and I believe one significant variable is that PPP not being in the system.  The other being room treatments.  I think I need some first reflection point panels for better imaging.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #59 - 10/09/14 at 21:54:22
 
I'm ordering a P3 Power Plant tomorrow morning.

Pal, did you have to send your Premiere in?

LR, did you settle on using your Pangea AC-9SE from wall to PPlant? I will be using my AC-9SE from wall to P3.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #60 - 10/09/14 at 22:53:32
 
I did not send my Premiere in.  Once my power stopped being completely insane, it stopped having any issues.

I've been using it at the cottage all summer without a hitch.  I am bringing it home to do more of a comparison to the P300 which I liked better.  Conventional wisdom is that I shouldn't like the P300 more...

I still have the RMA and PS Audio said I can send it in anytime before Feb and its still under warranty.  I'll use it here at home and if it hiccups, I will send it in.  Not going back to the cottage much after this weekend so I don't need two power regenerators at home.


PPP made a big difference in the cottage system sound.  I also got a lift when I brought my AC9 and AC12 up there.  I also schlep the Chord Dac up there as well.  It just sounds so much better than any of my more budget priced DACs its worth the hassle.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #61 - 10/10/14 at 01:31:55
 
Stone, I imagine you looked at this, but just in case.

I bought the P5 because the HC (high current) receptacle is regenerated. From PS Audio P3 description: "Next was power and to reduce costs the design team chose a smaller power transformer, one that would produce 80% of what a P5 will do. In order to make sure our customers could still operate an entire audio or video system with a single P3 Power Plant, engineering added a High Current zone that could power even the largest of amplifiers or projectors. The HC Zone, as it became known is not regenerated power, but rather filtered and protected only."

I think this means it is not regulated either...that it is "conditioned," and oddly, conditioners are what they are all on about the regenerators being so much better than.

Being able to set the voltage regulation was important here, not just because my house power will change a few volts many days, but because a volt or two makes a notable difference in the tone of the MKIV. Too high, too dense and full/thick for me. If I am correct on this, I was thinking it might matter to you since your system is very revealing and you are particular.

One thing that looks better on the P3 is that the IEC is separated from the first receptacle (HC). On the P5, to fit two of most AC ins in the HC receptacle (like Furutech or wattgate...the round ones) you have to have a different, narrower IEC cord end to power the P5..interestingly, just like a PSAudio IEC cord end.

I was able to squeeze by cutting the rubber tabs off a Pangea SE9 to power the P5, but it was still too tight. The PSA P12 cord works great, but I do not like it or the Pangea nearly as much as the DIY one I made. I guess I need to get a narrow aftermarket IEC, but it sounds great now so I have the MKIV alone in the HC outlet and the CSP3 in the next receptacle.

But that is irrelevant if the P3 works for your needs!
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« Last Edit: 10/10/14 at 01:46:56 by will »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #62 - 10/10/14 at 15:49:03
 
Thanks will, for the heads up on all this.

I will be fine with my plug-in's to the  P3...in which two plug-in's are Hubbells; XLO Pro cords from my ZMA an CSP3. The spread does look good an I only have four to get in when using my Chord and five when using my AA gear front end. Yes, I see that they put the IEC to close on the P5 to the HC receptacles.....hello PS! Glad, the P3 is all I need where my Pangea AC-9SE will fit fine from wall to P3.

I like the fact that the HC is NOT regenerated but just filtered an protected only. Essentially, that is all my Adcom 515 is doing...and I want to compare regenerated an NOT regenerated power. Reason being, Steve built the ZMA to have clean power an the HC might sound better than the regenerated receptacle.

The P3 is all I need for my total power needs...a regenerated receptacle can handle the ZMA power consumption an my front end(s)....if I choose not to use the HC for the ZMA.

I look forward to seeing what my power reads from the wall an using the Multiwave vs. Sinewave from the remote too.

Ordered: CableCo...got to love the discount.

PS - glad to hear Pal, you have not had to send in your Premiere/hoping that continues, an the AC9 is a lift.


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« Last Edit: 10/10/14 at 20:10:50 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #63 - 10/10/14 at 20:14:38
 
Sounds good Stone. The Toriis have power filtering, though I expect those big ZMA caps take it further. Still, all power filtering I have used can be easily heard. Since the P3 is a lot of the same circuits as the P5, I am afraid you can expect a long time to hear it at its best. The cord that feeds it is a big deal too, worth playing around with. Also, I found feet made a huge dif....My P5 was going back for a long time, but finally I had to make a leap of faith when it was still green and 30 days over. Luckily it did work out for me. I like it with the right cable and after  about 600 hours.
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« Last Edit: 10/10/14 at 20:15:44 by will »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #64 - 10/10/14 at 20:18:54
 
Good advice will, I find on my PPP that power cord and feet also make a difference, which I still find surprising but hey more experimenting. . . sometimes I like that. (Sometimes I don't!)
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #65 - 10/11/14 at 17:44:48
 
Good advice Will & Lon. I am excited about getting the P3. The last thing I'm purchasing for awhile, until I go to Steve's some time next year to hear the OTL SET he might produce an the HR-1's, Monolith an Bob's new Speaker that was at the Fest'.

What Power Cord from wall to your Power Plant are you using Will an Lon? What Cord from PPlant to Decware? ...an feet under PP.

LR & Palomino too. What are you guys using?
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« Last Edit: 10/11/14 at 17:46:21 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #66 - 10/11/14 at 18:10:49
 
Although I really like Steve's cords, I started using PS Audio's and worked my way up their line. I got one AC-12 and it was so good with anything that I plugged it into that I just over the course of time found the best deals I could and now every component I have is connected with AC-12. So I have AC-12 to the PowerBase I have the PPP on, to the PPP, to the PowerBase the Torii is on, to the Torii, etc. I just feel I have power cords and power treatment covered for a long time.

After trying several Herbie's Audio Lab footers, I'm using VooDoo Cable Iso-Pod's (the old version, not the new ones that are four times the price and look like Stillpints). They work great under the PPP and under my Rega RP3, I use Herbie's Iso-Cups under everything else.
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« Last Edit: 10/11/14 at 18:42:40 by Lon »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #67 - 10/11/14 at 20:29:12
 
Yes, thanks Lon. I realize I could search this info on other past threads. But, it is nice to reiterate it here. I think it is good Karma for anyone just checking in here at the Decware Forums too.

I've had the AC-12...and I should have kept it an just sent back the Moon big Solid State Amp I had in. I will use my Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3. I have been very happy with my XLO Pro/Hubbell...one each to my ZMA an CSP3. I might experiment with those too, for others with the CableCo Cable Bank/Joe. The 9SE, I did not like to my ZMA or CSP3...but might be a good match from wall to P3.
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« Last Edit: 10/11/14 at 20:30:29 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #68 - 10/11/14 at 21:16:06
 
Stone. For feet under the P5, I am using Synergistic Research big MIGs I found on sale some time ago and interestingly, I used them under my Uberbuss power conditioner, not really liking them under my amp at the time...too bright there. I am using some small MIGs under my modded Oppo and like them there too. I have Herbies isocups under the Torii and CSP3 now, but they sounded pretty dead under the P5. You got me, but the MIGs have a more alive sound...better openness and fine detail, but also good body and bass within that more open sound. I would call them a good voicing foot if one needs this sound, they are good at it. I felt a great relief when I tried them under the P5 since I had a hard time getting the open micro detail I need from it. If I had not been into exploring, being a bit veiled and colored for me, it would have gone back. Plugging my DAC and computer into a modded Brickwall that is conditioned by a Shunyata Defender really helped too. They were too effected by the P5 sound but opened right up on this separate circuit.

I compared all my cables, including an AC12 with several hundred hours. The Pangea SE9 had good frequency range and detail, but was too dark/warm for me. It came down to the AC12, a Pi Audio 10 AWG with gold Furutech ends, and new 8 AWG DIY. In the big picture, the AC12 was quite good, but not much comparison between it and the DIY cable I am using now. Sort of mixing the wirewound conductor and ground twisting setup with PSAudio and Pangea conductor number and gauge variety, it has many conductors of different gauges of silver on copper teflon wire and Rhodium ends. I got lucky, but it is really good! I was impressed that I could not hear my cable. It just seemed like unrestricted, uncolored flow of everything in the music. I did hear the AC12, open and deep, but by comparison, I don't know how to describe it...maybe like it had an odd sense of differentiation of frequency areas, at least going into the P5.

I don't know if you caught the following thread, but it segues into numerous power areas including PSAudio, also including my own saga with the P5. There is a description of my cable at post 43.... I think it was about 160-70 for parts, though getting the ends on a deep sale was a big savings.

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1400749087/30

To my amp I am using a Neotech DIY with gold plated ends and Neotech's 11 AWG cable. I watch partsconnexion for sales. I got the old style gold AC and IEC for 20 each like the Rhodiums.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_ac_neotech.html

If you search there for Neotech, I think you can find the Rhodium Ends I got, now for 40 each.

I will be interested in your impressions of the P3. If it is like the P5, time and cables are bigtime, and cables a major tuning tool, more so than I have heard into anything else.
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« Last Edit: 10/12/14 at 00:38:45 by will »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #69 - 10/12/14 at 15:41:23
 
Thanks will for the input an the point to these Threads. I will digest the Wireworld Thread/impressions... . The P3 allowing my System to sound its best...anytime of day that I decide to enjoy it is my goal. So, worth the Power Cord efforts going forward. Plus, burn in time for all as well.

Ultimately, the ZMA might be doing just fine with Steve's Power design for it. So, if the P3 ends up taking residents in my HT Rig 8 months from now....it will be a very good thing for that System.
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« Last Edit: 10/12/14 at 16:05:07 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #70 - 10/13/14 at 01:14:59
 
Sorry to be chiming in so late, but I've been out of town since Decfest.

I have the P10, I'm using the Pangea AC9SE between the wall and the P10, then a Wireworld Electra power cable between the P10 and the Mystery amp.

With the mystery amp, I find power products to have very little improvement. There is some, but not as much as with other amps and gear. I get a bigger lift from the DAC and other gear being on the P10 for sure. So don't limit yourself to having only the amp on a Regenerator.  

I also went one step further and wired a dedicated line from the breaker panel in the basement, up to a PS Audio Solo outlet in the music room, using basically Zen Styx 8AWG wire.  :) I did get a bigger lift from doing this (better noise floor and slightly better dynamics) then I did from any power cables. And it only cost me a couple hundred.
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« Last Edit: 10/13/14 at 01:19:23 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #71 - 10/13/14 at 16:00:24
 
Good to read Eric. I will be using my AC-9SE from wall to P3. Yes, my main intension of getting the P3 is for my Digital Front end(s) an my CSP3. The design of the ZMA lends itself to clean power. Not surprised only a minor lift noticed for ZMA.

So, I got a new toy coming for the long winter. I might put a few hundred hours on it in my HT rig first. Sony XBR 850b, DVR an Rotel etc...etc... .
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #72 - 10/22/14 at 15:39:14
 
Tracking number received for my P3. FedEx will have it here on Friday.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #73 - 10/22/14 at 16:00:59
 
Good news! Hope it brings you the joy that my PPP brings me.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #74 - 10/22/14 at 20:48:48
 

Has anyone tried the PS Audio re-generators in contrast to the TrippLite gear that Steve uses?
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #75 - 10/22/14 at 20:59:19
 
Yes. In my system, for years, the Tripplite was adding a hash that put an edge to the sound that Rad noticed first in his and I noticed when I replaced the Tripplites (I was using two, one each for digital and analog) with the Power Plant Premier.

In my opinion, in my then system in my house in Austin, there was no contest, the Power Plant Premier gave me considerably better sound.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #76 - 10/22/14 at 22:32:27
 
I have a lab grade Tripp Lite Line Conditioner, and Hospital grade Isolation transformer. I've not heard the hash that Lon talks about, but then my power is unusually clean, and unusually high in my area, and the wiring to my room was already shielded (conduit), dedicated circuit with a dedicated ground. So I had a lot of things going for me.

The P10 helped me bring my power down to a proper 120v (it was typically 125v, and sometimes more!), and dropped my distortion to .1% which resulted in blacker blacks.

What the newer power regenerators are designed around though, is low impedance, and lots of instantly available current. That lower impedance makes the amp feel like it has instant access to unlimited power, which results in better/faster dynamics. But then, that's what the big caps on the Mystery Amp do as well, which is why the P10 isn't shockingly good for my amp. It does benefit all the other gear, and my home theater system though.

I wouldn't change a thing I've done though. 8AWG wires in the walls, P10, and decent (but not crazy) power cables- all made some small improvement, and give a great foundation that I don't have to worry about or fuss over.  Just like the Mystery Amp - it's rock solid, it does it's job perfectly, and now I can move on and "worry" about something else.   Grin
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« Last Edit: 10/22/14 at 22:34:47 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #77 - 10/23/14 at 01:40:10
 
I should have my P3 Friday. I read about the difference or maybe improvements for the P3. I figured with the investments I made in my System this past year to get closer to my music-it was time to get a power plant.

Always something though, I have my Jones on again for the Acoustic Zen Adagio's... . I might bring them in after putting 300 hours on my P3.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #78 - 10/23/14 at 12:05:34
 
Awesome news on the P3 Stone.  It's always exciting to pick up a new piece of gear.  I, like the others, don't even think about my power with the P5 in my setup.  It's just not something I worry about.  When I was thinking about building another system, it did have me thinking about what I was going to do for power.  I was actually considering battery powered gear (Red Wine, Vinnie Rossi)  

If you haven't heard the Acoustic Zen Adagio's I think you are in for quite a treat. Very natural and musical sounding speakers.  Great timbre, tone.  They are an easy load for tube amps.  Slightly lower in efficiency than I would like for my room, but that is minor.  In this case, I do think there is a reason these speakers got so many good reviews.   If you talk to Robert (and I suggest that you do), he might suggest you don't need to add a sub, but I would leave that open if down the road you feel as if you need a bit more 'foundation'.

Have fun!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #79 - 10/23/14 at 16:54:40
 
No doubt Dave, the P3 coming for Friday night, will be fun to get her in my System.

The Adagio's have intrigued me for quite some time. I have reached out to Upscale (today) an I will see if Underwood Wally wants to deal... . If not, my rebuilt SDA1's are singing sweetly an concise. Man, I love the ZMA with my CSP3.
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« Last Edit: 10/23/14 at 17:47:01 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #80 - 10/23/14 at 17:41:03
 
Stone,

Post a Pic of your SDA1's if you get a chance sometime.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #81 - 10/23/14 at 17:47:58
 
You bet, DBC, I  just did my Room up for the better. I have been meaning to post pics forever... .

On a different note-but fun: Martin Logan is making the rounds with their new CLX Art Speakers. The October Tour was Burbank 10/4, Houston 10/11, Columbia MD 10/18 an here in my City, Oakdale MN 10/25...12 to 4pm (Best Buy/Magnolia-gig). They will be run with big Mac Mono's. I need to hear um'. Seeing whom an how they are set up, should be a treat..... .
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« Last Edit: 10/23/14 at 17:48:39 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #82 - 10/24/14 at 23:31:02
 
Well, FedEx delivered my P3 right on time today/Friday, at 1:30 pm CST, matter of fact. I however, was not here as I planned to be to sign an take possession of.

I had not been feeling well since Tuesday night. I thought I might have a pulled muscle in my abdomen. I drove to the emergency room yesterday on a hunch...something is wrong? Sure enough, their was something wrong. I had my Appendix about to rupture...an off to surgery I went!  All is well, an I actually got discharged today with my drug scrips'. I write here from my desk top at home-thanks goodness. Get me out of that hospital! Great staff an a great surgeon-I just don't like hospitals-most don't right?! I follow up with my surgeon in two weeks.

Well, my P3 is out for delivery tomorrow (love FedEx considers Tuesday thru Saturday business days-Home Delivery). I can't lift it. My girlfriend Sue is a pretty hardy gal. She can help me with it tomorrow. My recovery will be some serious inert music listening an enjoyment.
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« Last Edit: 10/24/14 at 23:33:46 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #83 - 10/25/14 at 00:20:10
 
Wow Larr, glad to hear you have that behind you and are home! If you have to let the P3 sit a while do so, safety and health first right!

Glad you have your gal to help take care of you. I am so blessed to have my Lucinda, I've been lucky to have had a great woman at the center of my life so much of my life, I think women make us better, save us and strengthen us. Get completely well and enjoy the music!
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will
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #84 - 10/25/14 at 00:46:52
 
Stone. Glad you had that feeling and got sorted out....I think hospitals are pretty scary too!

Glad you are home, and enjoy the music spell. Thank goodness for great music-making gear! Lucky, those of us who can enjoy recovery with such fine musical experiences!
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« Last Edit: 10/25/14 at 00:47:30 by will »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #85 - 10/25/14 at 01:00:04
 
Stone.  Glad to hear you are feeling better and are on the road to recovery.  I wish you the best!  I am sure some great music will help keep your spirits up.  Cheers!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #86 - 10/25/14 at 17:21:35
 
Thanks, Lon, Will & Dave...appreciate it.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #87 - 10/27/14 at 15:49:47
 
I got the P3 in yesterday morning. I like it! After about 6 hours (6 Cd's) yesterday...she started to show the goods. I have 17+ on her now. Multiwave is on baby!

Running Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3.
Voltage from wall is 123 volts.
Multiwave on.... .
Drawing 52 watts in P3 with Transport, Chord QuteHD DAC an CSP3.
I have my ZMA into the HC (High Current) plug. I will try it in Regeneration receptacle after awhile....to see if I can hear single variable pin point change for ZMA.
At low volume I bump the voltage from 120 to 115/improves depth of soundstage at low volume-I've noticed.
I use the 5 second degaussing periodically too of course.

Well, it is nice to see a product under constant development deliver on its promise: No squashing of dynamics...or timbre an tone harm. The P3 gets out of the way an delivers more musical detail with deep-deep blacks to the background. I figured this might me the next piece for me after going all Kimber Select with the CSP3 & ZMA. It is/was. An obviously, it has some break in to go! Like 500 hours or so.

It truly lets my Polks SDA1's shine too. However, I'm a music lover an audiophile right? After I heal up from my surgery here...I'm bringing in a pair of Acoustic Zen Adagio's/Burl Maple.
Then, I'm going to chill out an just Listen for a couple of years. Yeah right, ....can you say OTL SET Decware?! ....because inquirying minds want to know an hear it! This does not mean it will replace my ZMA though.


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« Last Edit: 10/27/14 at 15:57:51 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #88 - 10/27/14 at 15:56:43
 

Oh wow, I didn't realize the High Current sockets on the P3 were only filters - on the P10, they have regeneration, and current inrush limiters to help with completely drained caps (which I would probably have to worry about with the ZMA if I didn't use it all the time.  :) )
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #89 - 10/27/14 at 16:03:32
 
Yes, I would not have bought a PS Power Plant, if they did not stop Regenerating all sockets. It was a big complaint. Because of potential dynamics squashing power to your power amp. Albeit, a huge mongo SS, or our ZMA's, in which we know my HC will be all that is needed. But, I'll see/hear when I Regenerate to the ZMA eventually.

I need to see how many watts it draws + the 52 when I decide to Regenerate to the ZMA. No worries, it will have plenty of room to work with on the P3. I'm just curious...I don't remember if Steve listed how much the ZMA draws (150 watts or so I reckon).
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« Last Edit: 10/27/14 at 16:11:13 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #90 - 10/27/14 at 16:28:55
 
Glad you are digging it! Quite a foundation for your system!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #91 - 10/27/14 at 20:55:26
 
Yeah, the draw on the ZMA isn't much surprisingly - but I agree, it's the transients that I'd be worried about. Part of why I did the Go Big or Go Home method of power foundation. LOL

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #92 - 10/28/14 at 04:45:17
 
I have a P5... and the manual says the "high current" outlets(zone D on the P5) are identical in function as the other outlets... including regeneration and "in addition" have an in-rush limiter which brings the full AC up slowly.

Observing the power draw meter on my P5 reveals that a Decware Torii is a "Class A" amplifier, in that it draws the same power at idle or at full volume.  I also had a large class A/B arc welder of an amp(Aragon 8008BB) which I had attached to my P5 at one time.  It only drew 25 watts at idle per the P5's meter, but as the volume knob went up, so did the draw on the P5's meter to over 400 watts at a comfortably loud listening level.  As soon as the volume went down, so did the meter on the P5.

My Torii Mk.3 shows that it draws about 150 watts whether it is just on, with no music playing, or with the volume at party levels.  Its power draw does not vary with volume - as is the case with any Class A amplifier.

So there is no need to worry about dynamic "current limiting" with the PS regenerators unless you are running class A/B 1,000 watt solid state monoblocs or something.  This is a situation that does not exist for a Class A amp of the power ratings we're talking about here.  Other than within its own circuitry, but a PS regenerator can't do anything about that.

If your PS regenerator does not trip its internal relay briefly or instantly turn on its fan when you hit the "on" switch on your Class A amp - then you're good to go - it will have no problem supplying power to your amp at any volume level or under any music dynamic conditions.  A Class A amp circuit, is by definition, making full power all the time - it either delivers that power to the load, or it is expended as heat.
 
I have an entire rack of equipment plugged into one P5.  Most all other components have constant power draw so increasing power draw as the volume goes up or under dynamic conditions is not an issue there either.

You would be stunned and amazed to know that I currently have one pre/pro, three preamplifiers, a CD player, two DACS, a Burson Buffer, a Sirius receiver, a Torii and a ClassDaudio amp all plugged into one P5 that is plugged into one dedicated 20 amp line.  "Yes"... I know the P5 doesn't have that many outlets.  I have several of the less critical components plugged into an Emotiva powerstrip that is then plugged into one outlet on the P5.
Obviously I'm not actually using all of these components at the same time(I'm doing some evaluations), but they are all plugged in and at least in their "standby" modes all the time.  Ironically or not, my older Theta Digital CD player draws 55 watts in standby and also when its "on"(its claimed to have Class A analog outputs - guess it does).  All the other components together only draw 44 additional watts.  Checking my P5 just now,  with my Torii turned off, it shows a draw of 99 watts steady as a rock.  I actually had the pre/pro on with Sirius running thru it, just no amp on.  When I switch on my Torii, the meter jumps up and bounces around too fast to read for just a second or two and then settles at 252 watts, and it stays right there whether any music is playing or if I turn up the volume until my ears scream uncle - power draw remains the same, doesn't budge a single watt.

Now I suppose... that the P5's meter does not register fast enough to reflect every little change.  But neither does the power supply in your amp - that's what the power supply capacitors do - smooth the power ebb and flow.  But given the fact that I have observed the behavior of my P5 with a few class A/B solid state amps.  And then subsequently watched how it behaved with a couple of class A tube amps, I think its safe to say "dynamic" power demands of lower power Class A tube amps, such as Decware's, is a non-issue.  And certainly 252 watts steady draw is well below the P5's capacity and well below the load that one 20 amp circuit can supply.  Having everything on one circuit also makes for one extremely quiet system, no chance of ground loops.  I have 98db efficiency speakers, and with my ear only an inch away I can barely detect any hiss or residual noise at any setting of the volume control.  I also have a pair of vintage Klipsh at 101db efficiency - still no noise.  I'm sure the P5 has something to do with this also, as inserting it into the system produces more "rez" across the frequency range, blacker backgrounds, hearing farther into the recording and ambiance in the recordings that I never noticed before along with increased dynamics, especially micro, but even macro dynamics are notably improved.  I consider the P5 an "essential" part of my system.  I had a PS Powerplant premier before this P5 and I was sold then.

LR... check the power draw of your ZMA on your P10 - I'm curious.  Typically Class A amps are only about 25% efficient.  If my P5's meter is any indication, either my Torii is less than average in efficiency, or putting out more power than its 26 watt rating Steve puts on it.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #93 - 10/28/14 at 19:28:27
 

I'll check the draw when I get home. I'm on the road for work today.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #94 - 10/29/14 at 21:24:56
 
Four days in on the P3, an it ain't no BS...this P3 is squeezing the musical juice out of my System. As sweetly as my folks South Texas Oranges an Tangerines from their backyard.

Next up: Stealth Audio Cables - Metacarbon IC RCA!  (between my CSP3 & ZMA)

http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/carbon/metacarbon.htm
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #95 - 10/29/14 at 21:35:41
 
Glad you are digging it Lar.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #96 - 11/03/14 at 19:32:58
 
Oh yeah, the P3 will never leave!

I went an did it. I got my Adagio's!  Kevin is a cool guy. I grabbed an image picture at random of the color I got. I look forward to tube rolling my pre tubes with a quad from Kevin's choices at Upscale.

http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/661764-acoustic_zen_adagio_in_black...
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #97 - 11/04/14 at 01:43:14
 

Those are nice looking!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #98 - 11/04/14 at 11:56:55
 
Wow, those look great and they are going to sound even better!  Hopefully the wait isn't too long to get them into your music room.  Do you plan to break them in a little bit on the Emo before moving them into your main system?  I bet the ZMA + Adagios = Amazing Music.  Looking forward to your impressions Stone.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #99 - 11/04/14 at 14:40:38
 
Hi Dave, I should have them by next Monday or Tuesday. I did break in my 2nd Kimber 1030 IC recently between my Rotel an Emo. However, I am bringing the Adagio's right in to the Listening Room. I will let them burn in with me passively going in an out of the Room/clocking the hours on them. I am continuing to put some serious hours this week on my P3...so the Adagio's will be the relative newbe to tackle. I paid a very fair price for them too. To be able to run them with 10 to 100 watts/ch of Tube power with ease....is the hallmark of this Speaker! You just throw the misleading Specs out on these... .


Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew
Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60 (.5 meter)
Chord Chordette QuteHD DAC ---~or~
Audio Alchemy front-end/Prophecy Cryo i2s
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA (.75 meter)
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA (.5 meter)
Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
Kimber Select KS3035 Speaker Cable
Acoustic Zen Adagio Speakers
XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 & ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3

Decware SE84CS (w/NOS Svetlana SV83's from 1980's-not the New Sensor knock-offs) & Decware Super Zen CKC...when SE Pentodes run in Triode/Decware Style...needs to be in the System!

Decware 6C33C SET Mono-blocks.....pending 2015
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« Last Edit: 11/04/14 at 15:05:54 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #100 - 11/05/14 at 00:30:03
 
I know I hear a little bit differently than some (we are individuals after all), but the Acoustic Zen speakers definitely stand out to me as special.  They sound so natural (timbre, tone), and they have a liquidity and flow (very much like the ZMA) that makes you forget about anything else but the music.  Isn't that the point (ultimately)?
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #101 - 11/05/14 at 00:37:16
 
That is the point. That's what I've found in the HR-1s matched with the Torii Mk III. There are many ways to reach audio happiness. Getting there is not easy but when you get there, put down roots!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #102 - 11/05/14 at 00:45:44
 
I couldn't agree more Lon.  I think we all get there in our own way, which is great.  I appreciate that you are consistent with your advice on this forum, which is grounded in your experience.  Synergy is what you have with the HR-1/Torii mk3.  I think I stumbled upon it with the ZMA/944 combo, but I will likely still experiment with a lot of things before I know what I am dealing with and how high is up.  Best.  -d
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #103 - 11/05/14 at 00:54:14
 
Absolutely, I'm sure you're getting amazing sound as well. And listening to Pops playing Fats is what makes it all worthwhile!

Thank goodness for Decware. . . as I think I mentioned in the last few days, I feel Decware's components and service have enriched our lives.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #104 - 11/06/14 at 15:32:31
 
No doubt Dave. You know how good the Adagio's are. Most dealers won't carry them, because they cannibalize everything else in the room via tube or solid state. You have to move up to the 16k Crescendo to do better.
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« Last Edit: 11/06/14 at 15:33:06 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #105 - 11/06/14 at 22:18:05
 
Stone…I think the Crescendos will sound better only if they have the right space to breathe.  I believe Robert told me 14’x18’ minimum and he was recommending the speakers be placed 7 ft from the front wall.  Unless you have a relatively big dedicated room, the Adagio’s will likely be the better option.

That said, I heard the Crescendos at Axpona (in a terribly small room) and they were immediate standouts to me.  I can only imagine what they would sound like in a big, well treated room.  

Looking forward to your impressions of the Adagios.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #106 - 11/11/14 at 23:26:47
 
Stone...hopefully you are glued to your listening couch with the Adagios singing sweet music in your ears...
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #107 - 11/12/14 at 18:07:00
 
Oh, you bet I am Dave. I know now, why these Adagio's have been in production going on 9 years. They are extremely musical an absent of the most smallest distortion while maintaining musicality...with lock you in your seat/don't move.

Now with only 27 hours an counting on them...they are waxing an waning some. However, 100 hours should be the ticket! These drivers and tweeters ain't your OEM Parts Express, Madisound or Hempter stuff! In conjunction with this ass kicking transmission line....I am pleased. It will be fun to bring my Vintage Polk SDA1's back in for comparison next month. They are worthy to bring back in...for their mesmerizing texture (via DECWARE) provided by the ole' litz wire tweeters I love. But, as of now....the Adagio's back up the hype an are tube loving.

Brand new @ 3650 plus frt......they are a steal!!!!
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« Last Edit: 11/12/14 at 18:12:52 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #108 - 11/13/14 at 16:22:48
 
Well, the PS Audio P3 is quite the piece. I could not part with it...for my Front End(s).

The Adagio's I will not part with either. I could have bought used AZ Adagio's. However, like a new car is a new car....I wanted to break in myself and I paid a great price for new. My Vintage Polk SDA1 Speakers stay too.

I will not part with any of my Decware Amplifiers or CSP3 either.

It is now time to focus on more music an some affordable brief tube rolling.

The only thing, I have decided I want to complete my stable in the Listening Room rotation...is Pass Labs XA60.5 Mono-blocks/used/transferable warranty. Like Decware, you have to have some PASS!  Cheers!

Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew
Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60 (.5 meter)
Chord Chordette QuteHD DAC ---~or~
Audio Alchemy front-end/Remote Volume Wand/Revelation Audio Prophecy Cryo-Silver i2s
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA (.75 meter)
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA (.5 meter)
Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
Kimber Select KS3035 Speaker Cable
Acoustic Zen Adagio Speakers
XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 & ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3

Decware SE84CS (w/NOS Svetlana SV83's from 1980's-not the New Sensor knock-offs) & Decware Super Zen CKC...when SE Pentodes run in Triode/Decware Style...needs to be in the System!
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« Last Edit: 11/13/14 at 16:26:19 by stone_of_tone »  

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Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #109 - 11/14/14 at 18:16:36
 
Well, I had to take them out of the Listening Room. I put my SDA1's back in an they smoked the Adagio's. The Adagio's need some very serious burn in (as stated by every Reviewer I read). They are now in the Bedroom hooked up to Solid State to hit the 300 hour mark, at least.

The Adagio's have shown hints of very promising things to come, while in the Listening Room Rig. 300 hours should open them up.  Cheers, all have a good weekend.
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Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #110 - 11/18/14 at 01:29:14
 
Hi Stone...how's the break in going on the Adagios?  Any additional thoughts to share or are they still being pounded with SS to loosen up the drivers?
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #111 - 11/18/14 at 04:24:57
 
Stone - do those Adiagios speakers do the disappearing trick well? You think I might like them better than the AG 3.1?
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #112 - 11/18/14 at 14:56:14
 
Hi Dave an Eric. Yes, the Adagio's are still being pounded with SS to loosen them up! I had them in my Listening Room for 34 hours an then moved them out to SS. The jury's still out on them guys...until I get them back in my L-Room in 3 weeks I figure. Then, some evaluation. The garbage I have them burning in on...is not worth commenting on. A Pioneer DVD player an Dayton APA 150.

LR, have you tried the Nationals 7DJ8's yet? I had to get a pair in last night an I'm listening this morning. They are as Kevin described with only 11 hours on them...smooth/extended top an bottom with no exaggeration, yet very articulate and not taking away from transient attacks....an ohhh, the timbre an 3D addition of Air. I am very pleased. I am only using a pair in the Pre slots of the ZMA currently. My first of six scenario's for this tube. Let me know...I will buy them from you...if you do not like them. I am using them with the KT66 Tung-Sols...that they mate well with. An yes, 11 hours does not make for a complete take on them. But, hopefully after a 100 hours an comparing to the 6N23P back in......will see (hear).

Back to the Adagio's: What I did hear when I had them in my Room, as stiff as they are, was very coherent an detailed with a flat impedance loving the ZMA. If I love an keep them Eric....maybe next year I'll bring them down to you, so you can hear them. This MTM Transmission Line configuration you know well in your current Speakers.

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« Last Edit: 11/18/14 at 15:56:06 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #113 - 11/18/14 at 20:31:07
 

Yeah, MTM seems to be a theme with me lately, and the funny thing is I don't care for MTM outside of theaters/home theaters. I sense too much micro-timing issues with multiple drivers, so I prefer two drivers, or co-ax if they are done really well. But MTM seem to get me most of what I want.

As for the Nationals - yeah, I've had them in the input section of my ZMA for almost two weeks now. Just not feeling them with the Golden Lion. I think maybe I need to go back to the stock KT66. But I'm going to wait for my replacement 6N1P to show up for some burn-in and tube rolling.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #114 - 11/19/14 at 02:48:56
 
I will soon be able to compare the new Zu Audio Omen Def vs. the MG944's.  It would be great to add the Adagios to the mix.  Three similar, yet very different speakers.  

LR...do your Mg944's have a similar crossover (3rd order I believe) as the Adagios?  I think that is the standard crossover for a D'Appolito MTM design.  

It appears there is a fair amount of mathematical data to support the MTM configuration, as well as many speakers successfully using this format.  That said, what we hear is what we hear.   Or said differently, trust your ears.

Interestingly, the Zu MTM speakers are known for having more detail than their MT brothers (utilizing the same drivers).  Any thoughts on detail and micro-timing of the Zen Monoliths vs. the 944's?
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #115 - 11/19/14 at 04:18:06
 

Quote:
I will soon be able to compare the new Zu Audio Omen Def vs. the MG944's.  It would be great to add the Adagios to the mix.  Three similar, yet very different speakers.  


Oh yeah, I'd love to do that comparo.

Quote:
LR...do your Mg944's have a similar crossover (3rd order I believe) as the Adagios?  I think that is the standard crossover for a D'Appolito MTM design.


Yeah, I think Bob said there were 3 pair actually like mine. All with crossovers. I'm not sure what slope the crossover has.

Quote:
Any thoughts on detail and micro-timing of the Zen Monoliths vs. the 944's?


I've really not put those two side by side, except for Palominos version vs my 944 in his room. His setup throws a wall of coherent sound that's quite amazing. The 944 are a bit beamy due to the tweeter. I think the El Camino are going to be somewhere in between with the tweeter crossed over much lower.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #116 - 11/19/14 at 16:04:42
 
The speed, dynamic's an coherence of the Adagio's are stunning. Worth reading all the reviews on them an get a between the lines sense about them through the better in depth reviews found. The cool part is, Adagio's can be had from 2500 to 3650 new (I paid).

Dave, great you're having the Zu's in to compare. Some more burn in on my Adagio's an I will get them back in my Room.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #117 - 11/19/14 at 17:38:00
 
However, having said the above...I could very well sell the Adagio's...we will see/hear. My Vintage Polk SDA1's smoke them in Textural sound and in some details. To many of the new generation of Speakers are to button down an clean. Taking away the closer to live sound I get from my SDA1's with Decware -an- rendering themselves (the Adagio's so far) to just sounding like good hi-fi. My SDA1's with 1.25 inch old school Litz wire Tweeters deliver organics whet. (Yes, like Sandy Gross's Speakers of today...he listened to these at home with lower power under 50 watts/ch tubes ~ circa 1985 - 88...in 2 channel Stereo/not using the SDA function...as I too use them).

In the Adagio's defense, I will put 150 hours on them with SS...and then another 100 on them in the Listening Room. They will get their fair chance to shine or fail.
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« Last Edit: 11/19/14 at 17:55:04 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #118 - 11/19/14 at 18:18:55
 
Very interested in your thoughts on the Zu's Dave.  I am in search of a high efficiency speaker that images well.  Zu's seemed to fill the bill at Axpona.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #119 - 11/19/14 at 18:49:56
 
Quote:
Very interested in your thoughts on the Zu's Dave.  I am in search of a high efficiency speaker that images well.  Zu's seemed to fill the bill at Axpona.


Agreed - could be the speaker to dethrone my MG944 as reference. But then, the 944 we considerably cheaper then the Zu, so that's saying something!
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #120 - 11/21/14 at 23:46:25
 
Quote By Dave1210

Quote:
I will soon be able to compare the new Zu Audio Omen Def vs. the MG944's.  It would be great to add the Adagios to the mix.  Three similar, yet very different speakers.  


Dave, I've been curious about the ZU Omen Def for some time now. Have really gotten the itch since their recent upgrade of that speaker.

Look forward to hearing your impressions.
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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #121 - 11/22/14 at 01:48:15
 
I should clarify...my buddy ordered the Zu speakers as a first step in building his system.  We heard the Druids at Axpona last year, and the rest is history. I am excited to hear these speakers...

We plan to compare the MG944's to the Zu Omen Def's.  We will drive the Zu's with a few different amps, CKC, ZMA, and Peachtree Nova 220SE (the amp he is leaning towards).  

I will do my best to report impressions on this forum.  We likely won't do a serious comparison until the OD's are well broken in, but knowing my buddy and his taste for rock music that shouldn't take too long...  

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Re: Power Regeneration & Decware Amps
Reply #122 - 11/22/14 at 16:25:29
 
Quote:
but knowing my buddy and his taste for rock music that shouldn't take too long...  


That got an early morning chuckle out of me.  ;D
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