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12/28/14 at 20:10:39



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Torii, Harbeth and phono stages (Read 2084 times)
jsm71
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Posts: 107
Re: Torii, Harbeth and phono stages
Reply #15 - 03/11/14 at 18:27:03
 
Rafe, the mental math that you are wrestling with in regard to speaker sensitivity and amp power is the same exercise I've been through. I have a Torii MK IV and my speakers' sensitivity is 87dB. I get all the volume I need in my small room, but I am buying a ZMA becuase I expect to have a bigger room some day and I'll want the extra oomph.

Let's do some math for your Harbeths and assume a worst case scenario. Each 3dB of extra volume requires that you double the wattage. Sensitivity is the volume your speaker puts out measured from 1 meter away with 1 watt. You should get 83dB of output volume with 1 watt of steady signal. Volume falls off from 3 to 6dB for each meter further away you sit.

Let's say you sit 3 meters away which even in the worst case should give you about 71dB of volume with a steady 1 watt. Music isn't steady, but the math makes for an interesting exercise.
01 watts - 71dB
02 watts - 74dB Decware Super Zen Triode
04 watts - 77dB Decware Mini Torii
08 watts - 80dB
16 watts - 83dB The Torii gives at least this level but not quite the next level
32 watts - 86dB The ZMA gives at least this level but not quite the next level
64 watts - 89dB  Decware Monos

I listen at levels no higher than 80dB on average. Higher levels don't sound any better, but gets me yelled at to turn it down. Even with your Harbeth's tough sensitivity you should be able to get at least 83dB of volume output with the Torii. I was applying worst case with volume fall off to your listening seat, and you may in fact get 3-6 more dB at full output. Is that loud enough? Like me, you may want to consider the ZMA if your budget allows.

Edit: I forgot that you get about 3dB back by having two speakers.
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« Last Edit: 03/11/14 at 18:32:23 by jsm71 »  
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Lin
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Posts: 134
Re: Torii, Harbeth and phono stages
Reply #16 - 03/11/14 at 22:05:25
 
IME the "math" never works out.

Rafe has used a 33 watt amp with good results, so the Torii with 25 watts should be fine.
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raferx
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Re: Torii, Harbeth and phono stages
Reply #17 - 03/12/14 at 03:20:29
 
Great stuff, thanks for all the math Smiley
I'm terrible at that stuff because I don't ever know the formulas.
Yes, my Campion is 33 watts (44 into 6ohms) of solid state British goodness, and I've been told it's very "tubey" sounding.
Do you guys find the Torii (and tubes in general) to convey bass much more realistically than solid state?
Thanks so much!
R
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jsm71
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Posts: 107
Re: Torii, Harbeth and phono stages
Reply #18 - 03/12/14 at 21:43:56
 
I'll be the first to admit that the "math" is nothing more than allowing you to get a feel for the listening levels one could achieve, and not to be used as absolute.  So many variables.  If you know you will want to crank 100+dB sound levels and the chart suggests you're more in the 85dB realm, you may need to rethink.  The relationship of volume to wattage is a fact you can't get around however.  Jumping up another 3dB of volume does require you to double the wattage.  Achieving another 10dB requires 10 times the wattage.  This is why 1000 watt amps aren't as massive as they might seem.  They will only push 10dB more than a 100 watt amp.  The real value of extra wattage overhead has more to do with covering dynamic spikes than steady listening levels.

The first time I heard a Torii MK III (a friend's amp) on my system I was floored by how good the bass was.  The Torii MK IV that I have doesn't have the range of bass control the III allowed, but the bass is very high quality, better than two different $5k SS amps I've had in the past.  I've never read any account from Torii owners of bass dissapointment.  

Tube choice plays quite a roll as well as to the quality of bass.  The stock 6922 tubes shipped with my Torii actually produce more bass output, but thicker sounding than NOS Telefunkens that I run normally.  I prefer the Teles for the cleaner sound top to bottom.  It's great to be able to tailor the sound to your liking.
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raferx
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Re: Torii, Harbeth and phono stages
Reply #19 - 03/15/14 at 19:48:51
 
Thanks again for the great, thoughtful and helpful replies everyone Smiley
My listening position is in the sweet spot of an equilateral triangle about 7-8' away from my speakers. I play with the speakers toe-in and positioning every week or two for fine tuning in the room as it is now, but I know that with a new rug coming that will probably change too.
As I've said, I like it loud, solid, realistic like I'm there with the musicians perhaps is a better description? (but not fatiguing)
So, from looking at the chart and estimating roughly what SPL I like (I've never measured it), I'd say around 85dB is probably my max, but that's only a guess, and I'm sure some careful acoustic treatment of the room will also help.
Bass seems to be the area that I'm most critical about in listening, perhaps because of the P3s bass roll off. They don't produce a lot of bass, but what is there is very defined and controlled and often sounds/feels like more than what is there, and I feel a bit spoiled at how well they manage to do this compared to many other speakers rated far lower in output, but that just don't sound nearly as realistic.
I'm still researching amps; the Torii remains in the top-three mix and is the only pure-tube choice for me. The Croft Micro is also up there, but is a tube/SS hybrid and the LFD is the lone SS contender.
If anyone reading this had a choice between a Torii MK III and the MK IV, could you comment why you would prefer one over the other?
Many thanks, Mahalo from Hawaii.
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