Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
08/21/14 at 03:35:36


Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo?? (Read 2507 times)
kevtn8
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #15 - 03/03/14 at 02:54:18
 
Thanks for your input Palomino. Sorry I've been so busy with work. Your strong opinion of the passive cabinets and custom phase guide have really made me excited. I have already sent my speakers back to Steve for the modifications and the cabinets will arrive this Thursday. My only concern is how will the small amp handle the extra horn cabinets. There was not much time allocated on the Decfest videos to this combo, however what I did hear sounded very promising. Steve assured me that the improvements from the cabinets will carry over regardless of the amp with the main difference being the stronger amps having more headroom.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
DBC
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 123
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #16 - 03/03/14 at 16:36:32
 
ZYGI Wrote:

Quote:
The companion cabinets add dynamics, soundstage, and bass. Most impressive is there ability to add soundstage, (hard to explain but I get it) and the bass, forget about it!

There is no way using a sub you can integrate the bass to the main speakers more effectively. I don't care if you use several subs placed around the room in a swarm  (I think they are calling it these days) This may be a way around  room mode issues, but it doesn't  integrate as well.


From ZYGI's comments it would seem that the Decware Companion Cabinets do for the DM945's what the HSU Mid Bass Module did for my Super Zen with conventional Klipsch speakers. "Adds dynamics, soundstage and bass. Most impressive is their ability to add soundstage."

There is something really magical that happens when you properly augment the Mid-Bass on a simple Super Zen / Speaker combo. So I can understand the results described by ZYGI based on my experience with the Mid Bass Module over the past 2 years.

As ZYGI states one or more subs can't replicate the effect. Believe me I've tried for many years. It was not until I started experimenting with the Mid Bass Module that I realized the real magic is in the Mid-Bass range (50-200 Hz).

Before the Mid Bass Module about 20% of my CD collection got very little play. Recordings came across thin, dry, sterile. After the Mid Bass Module I can honestly say nothing sounds bad on the system. There is a lot of interesting detail in the Mid-Bass region if you can dig that out. I"m looking forward to see if kevtn8 has a similar experience with the DM945 companion cabinets?
Back to top
 
 

Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
  IP Logged
kevtn8
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #17 - 03/10/14 at 03:51:58
 
DBC, I've been following your thread on "adding body n weight" and I find the Midbass Module a very interesting product. However after careful consideration and talking to Steve , the passive horn cabinets was a no brainer upgrade for my DM945s. According to Steve, the low bass extension is only 1 part of the equation that gets improved. I was equally excited about the improvements to the soundstage , dynamics, and overall midrange clarity. Even if these cabinets give me half of the performance of your midbass module in your system, I consider it a great investment (and achievement by Steve) because my amp is only 2 watts with no external amp for the bass and I'm also not using any preamp. My speakers are being modified/upgraded with Steve right now and it shouldn't be much longer before I get them back. I might also invest in a preamp like the CSP3 in the future to further add weight n body to the music. As for now I'm sticking with what I have because my current room is pretty small and I feel what I have is more than adequate for the job. I'll update once my speakers are back.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/11/14 at 02:54:14 by kevtn8 »  
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #18 - 03/10/14 at 12:54:52
 
Great news, Kevin!

The DM945's have big 8" woofers, so the only limiting factor to having a good low extension and impact is the volume in the small cabinets. This is a constraint stemming from the  bookshelf design, as many people do not have the room for floor-standing speakers (I used to have that restriction myself at the time).

Once you allow those big woofers to expand and move some air mass around, I'm sure the bass, weight and body will come out. The interesting thing in this revision is the intelligently designed pathway for that mass of expanded air to go through (Venturi and low-pressure, air flow acceleration), which seems to go well beyond the mere volume increase to improve the sound.

As Zygi said, there's no substitute for deep bass, no matter how much mid bass you put on. I believe this solution is as ingenious as we have come to expect from Steve and Co.

Keep us posted on your findings. Thanks.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/10/14 at 13:11:50 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
kevtn8
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #19 - 03/28/14 at 05:56:32
 
So my modified speakers arrived 2 days ago. This is an early update of what my system is sounding like so far. This is only after 1 day of listening to the combo. There is something wrong with my dac so I'm currently borrowing my friend's Musical Paradise MP-D1.

My speakers still needs to break in as well as the rest of my system but what I'm hearing now is beyond words. The difference that the cabinets and phase guide have made is just incredible. Now I don't have much experience with alot of full size speakers or other amplifiers ( tube or solid state) but I believe I have a pretty good taste for overall musical balance. I have been an audiophile for awhile now but mostly in the car audio scene. My very first as well as current amplifier in my car is hybrid tube amp from Butler Audio. All of my friends are audiophiles and have been into tube systems before me so I kind of have a taste of what to look for. What amazes me the most so far after just a few hours of testing is that the Super Zen is only 2 watts and I'm also not using any preamp yet the soundstage and dynamics of my system is now taken up another 2 or 3 levels. I was listening with one of my friend earlier and we both agreed it sounded so "live" now. The bass integration is just fabulous and not overly done. Keep in mind I also have the phase guide installed. With that said, the bass is very musical and its seamless with the music. As a result there seems to be more weight and body to the music. 

Perhaps what made my day was when my father who is into live professional musical equipment because he likes to sing karaoke in the house complimented on my system. He was the one that recommended that I needed a subwoofer in my system a few weeks ago but now says my system is complete and lacks nothing  :)

I will keep on breaking in the speakers , Super Zen Select and rest of my system and will give another update later but I'm sure things will only go up from here. One final word for anyone looking into the DM945 to pair with the Super Zen but don't think it will measure up to a floorstander, please use my experience to rest your fears and worries and know that it can be done. I believe this speaker combo ( DM945 with phase guide paired with passive horns) , considering the price, ranks right up there with some of the best sounding speakers in the world for the dollar. Another masterpiece from Steve and Decware.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/28/14 at 08:51:03 by kevtn8 »  
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #20 - 03/28/14 at 12:31:34
 
I'm very happy for you, Kevin, to see all those early doubts vanishing. I knew that Zygi's opinion would be valid, and there you have it.

If only these cabinets were smaller and lighter, I could consider importing them myself. That, and the required phase modification are making this option too tough for me, unfortunately.

Enjoy!
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
DBC
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 123
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #21 - 03/28/14 at 18:03:38
 
kevtn8,

Happy to see your glowing review of the companion cabinets. In my earlier post I was simply trying to give you reason to be optimistic these would be everything ZYGI described while you waited for their arrival.

When I first read this thread I was struck by how ZYGI's description of what the companion cabinets do with the DM945's was exactly how I would describe what the HSU Mid Bass Module does with my Klipsch RF7's.

My theory on why Subs are not entirely seamless on music: I think the brain actually connects low frequencies from 20 hz all the way up to about 200 hz based on my experience with the Mid Bass Module.

If you visualize a horizontal line, the left extreme representing 20 hz and the right extreme representing 200 hz. Say in this example your mains drive good down to 50 hz so you set up a sub to handle the 20 to 50 hz range and raise the volume level in this range say +6 db. At some point the brain senses the abrupt change in level around the 50 hz point and says no good.

In my case I added the Mid Bass Module raising the volume level say +6 db in the 50 to 200 hz range "Sweet". Then when I introduce the sub at +6 db the entire range (20 to 200 hz) is at the same level "Sweeter". At some point if you continue raising the volume level it just becomes obvious there is too much Bass and you just back it off a bit.

Based on the description you and ZYGI have provided I suspect the DM945 companion cabinets not only go lower but also reinforce the upper Mid-Bass frequencies, hence the seamless integration. Perfect solution for anyone already equipped with the DM945's.

There is nothing better than getting a great bang for the buck and sounds like you scored here.

Enjoy.



Back to top
 
 

Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
  IP Logged
kevtn8
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #22 - 03/29/14 at 07:14:53
 
I want to further add that my experiences with this combination is totally unique to me. I'm not a basshead in anyway but I do appreciate a very balanced musical reproduction from top to bottom from my speakers and I believe I've found it with this combo.

I also want to point out that although most of the discussion so far has been on the passive horn cabinets and they definitely deserve it but I want to also add that Steve has superbly integrated his patented active phase guide with the Silver Flutes. After living with the stock DM945 for a few weeks, I felt that when properly used, the  Silver Flutes are one of the most underrated loudspeaker drivers I've ever heard but the midrange can be a little recessed if not used in a near field position. The addition of the phase guide greatly improves and augments the midrange to a point where it sounds so perfect now. Combined with the greatly improved bass, soundstage , and dynamics brought upon by the passive horns and imo, makes this combo one of the very best all around speakers in the world for the money.

Like most on here, I looked past the cabinets for several weeks until I realized I needed to augment the DM945 with some sort of subwoofer to balance the sound. At first I was very skeptical with the passive horns because my amp is only 2 watts, however after talking to Steve he really reassured me that I wouldn't be dissappointed because the main thing is that all of his amps can reproduce 20hz - 20khz and even the Super Zen will exploit the bass extension of the horn cabinets. The question is will it be enough for you? You will have to make that call based on how much bass you value/need in your music. I will stress that whoever decides to get the passive horn cabinets to pair with their DM945s, please also consider getting the Silver Flutes modified by Steve with his active phase guide as my unique experience are based on these additions. Steve has been fine tuning and perfecting his phase guide for nearly 10 years and he has really transformed the Silver Flutes into something special.

On a final note, with only 2 watts and no external active sub or preamp, I'm simply awestruck by the overall presence and musical balance of this modified speaker combo. You know the speakers has to be pretty good if 2 watts is all it needs to perform like that, at least for me.  
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
busterfree
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 141
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #23 - 03/29/14 at 07:31:36
 
Do you have any pictures that you can share?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
kevtn8
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #24 - 03/30/14 at 07:16:44
 
Busterfree, my room is very unorganized. My system layout n room acoustics isn't ideal due to all the stuff in my room. I basically have the DM945/cabinets combo to the side of an executive desk. My dac, Super Zen Select and laptop are on the desk. This is just a temporary situation until I buy a house. The cabinets are angled towards the middle of the room. I also raised the cabinets on each side about 3-4 inches so that the Silver Flutes aren't being blocked by the side of the desk. Its not the best situation but overall I'm still pretty happy. Now I need to gradually break in the rest of my system from cables and amp to dac and speakers.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
busterfree
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 141
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #25 - 03/30/14 at 17:34:14
 
I understand. Thanks for describing your set up.

I am curious to see what the modified woofer looks like. I can got an idea of the horn section from the Decfest videos.

I would like another set of speakers, but I do not need another set of speakers.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 334
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #26 - 03/31/14 at 11:26:34
 
To get an idea of the phase guide, look to the Tang Band W5 1880 pictures in the DIY section for the DNA Horn.  When I talked to Steve he said it was the same principle.  Rather than the mids coming right at you, the wave guide disperses them around the room.

I noticed the difference in the way the speaker sounded at Decfest and took off the grill and had a look at it.  It's different than the W5, but again, the same principle.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Chord QuteHD with Linear Power Supply, Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
  IP Logged
kevtn8
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #27 - 04/01/14 at 02:56:20
 
Busterfree, the phase guide looks like the one used for his DFR-8 driver only its a white hard plastic mold/resin and on the Silver Flutes there is just the phase guide without the whizzer cones. There is also an O ring attached near the tip of the phase guide. Steve says this is because the phase guide was originally designed for the Fostex/ DRF-8 drivers and the Silver Flutes dustcap space is a little larger in diameter. It honestly doesn't look too bad in person however Steve reiterated here that the goal was all about sound quality and less with aesthetics.

Palomino, thanks for that information. That is a very interesting concept that Steve has implemented here. So far I have to give him the benefit of the doubt on whatever it is that he's trying to achieve with the phase guide as both my friend and I felt it integrated quite well with the horn cabinets. We both agreed that there was definitely more midrange. Also the midrange seemed much clearer... not sure if this is the result of the phase guide or the cabinets or both.  
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 334
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #28 - 04/01/14 at 12:22:41
 
I'd guess you get lower midrange sound out of those cabinets which may make the midrange richer.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Chord QuteHD with Linear Power Supply, Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
  IP Logged
busterfree
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 141
Re: DM945/passive cabinets and Super Zen combo??
Reply #29 - 04/02/14 at 01:58:01
 
Quote:
Posted by: Palomino      Posted on: Yesterday at 03:26:34
To get an idea of the phase guide, look to the Tang Band W5 1880 pictures in the DIY section for the DNA Horn.  When I talked to Steve he said it was the same principle.  Rather than the mids coming right at you, the wave guide disperses them around the room.

I noticed the difference in the way the speaker sounded at Decfest and took off the grill and had a look at it.  It's different than the W5, but again, the same principle.


Quote:
Posted by: kevtn8      Posted on: Yesterday at 18:56:20
Busterfree, the phase guide looks like the one used for his DFR-8 driver only its a white hard plastic mold/resin and on the Silver Flutes there is just the phase guide without the whizzer cones. There is also an O ring attached near the tip of the phase guide. Steve says this is because the phase guide was originally designed for the Fostex/ DRF-8 drivers and the Silver Flutes dustcap space is a little larger in diameter. It honestly doesn't look too bad in person however Steve reiterated here that the goal was all about sound quality and less with aesthetics. ...



Thanks to you both. I think I have the idea now.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print