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Warm input tube for CSP-3? (Read 1285 times)
mark58
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Warm input tube for CSP-3?
01/07/14 at 13:25:19
 
I am not posting on the CSP or CSP3 thread because I think my questions sometimes get unnoticed over there.

I have an inherently brighter speaker...the Zu Audio 10" full range driver with whizzer...."Souls".  These will eventually be replaced by the warmer HR-1s in the next few months.  I also have headphones with Silver cable wire mixed with 1 to 2% Gold...so these are also perhaps a tad brighter than I would like.

I have my CSP-3 with two outputs, hooked up to both the Torii and Taboo Amps.  What i want to know is what input tube my knowledgeable Decware comrades would recommend to warm up both the headphone's and speaker's sound a bit....without breaking the Bank.  The CSP-3 currently has stock tubes except for a National Union 5U4G rectifier. Mark.
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 13:51:27 by mark58 »  
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Digger
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #1 - 01/07/14 at 14:01:17
 
Mark58
   Not sure what tubes your running in the CSP3 if they are the 6n1p-ev that maybe the warmest you have available. I have the 6922 and the 6dj8 NOS tubes. The 6922 seems to be the brighter of the 2 with the most detail. The 6DJ8 seems to be a bit less detailed but a little bit smoother. I have stayed with all copper wire I feel any silver would put me in the same position you are with brightness. There is one other thing I noticed since receiving the CSP3 the more hours I have on it the smoother and less brittle it has become. You may want to try different brands of 6N1p tubes if you can find them. I haven't noticed a wide selection in regard to that tube type. Maybe someone on the site knows about a source for a wider selection. Sometimes it is the combination of equipment that will dictate the end result of the sound more than tubes. Good luck keep cooking it it may settle down some. I would say if you were running a 3 way with a crossover you could tame your high frequencies a bit. I wonder if there would be a way to dampen the cone of your speaker to tame the high frequencies without diminishing the whole speakers performance.

    Just noticed your rectifier tube do you have the original and have you tried it with it? Mine came stock with the Valve Art 274B I have read that that is the most tubey sounding rectifier for this application warm and round. Hopefully we'll get some more input on your situation from others I'd like to also hear others opinions.

    There is one other thing you may want to try just to get you through till your new speakers arrive. I've had numerous sets of old vintage speakers over the years and back in the day they used to cover the high frequency drivers with a very thin layer of foam I believe it was to take a little bit of an edge off of the highs. I wouldn't be afraid to try any thing since it would be temporary anyway.


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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 14:13:34 by Digger »  
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #2 - 01/07/14 at 14:22:34
 
Digger, thanks for your reply.  Yes I do have the tubes you mention in the CSP3 currently....I just went to my tube box and checked. I only just got my cables...one Christmas eve day and the other a week later so they probably have some burn in which may mellow them a little.  I wouldn't call either one bright though in the harsh, fatiguing, Hot sense...they are very smooth and satisfying...I am just looking to fine tune with a little more warmth.  I think the Gold that Frank at Toxic Cables puts in the Silver Widow cables for the Audeze cans and the Silver Poison cables for the HD800's, tempers the Harsh brightness some would expect from Silver cables.  I was worried about Silver with the already bright HD800's but overall I find the Poison cable much more pleasing than the stock cable which I think is pretty good.

I am planning on putting RCA 5U4G rectifiers in the Torii which currently has RCA 5Y3GT's in it...maybe that will warm things a little.  Also the Taboo will probably get a RCA 5Y3G rectifer at some point...not sure how that will effect things.  Thanks again.  The Audio Adventure continues.  Mark.
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 14:29:38 by mark58 »  
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Digger
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #3 - 01/07/14 at 14:40:45
 
Mark58,
      One other thing I was thinking about is your source. Are you spinning vinyl or CD's. I had recently added a Schiit Bifrost to my system and it put things for me a bit over the top in brightness. I have returned it and am waiting to receive the Uber in its place. If you have a secondary dac take it out of the system and try it without it for a while. In my system it made a huge difference and am hoping the Uber will help it out over the stock BiFrost. Yes much more detail with it in the system. It was adding a dimension to it I didn't care for and it was the overly bright sound I didn't like.



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JD
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #4 - 01/07/14 at 15:00:30
 
Mark,

I've had good luck with Ediswans and Mullards for warmth.  In my csp2+ I'm using a telefunken up front with mullards behind (all nos 6922).  They aren't that cheap but you might get lucky on ebay.

JD
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #5 - 01/07/14 at 15:13:53
 
Digger,  I'm a Luddite...No DACs for me.  I run a ZP3 and Rega RP6 with Exact cart for Vinyl and a Jolida JD 100 CD player with  NOS Raytheon 12AX7s tubes (same in the ZP3 along with RCA Black plate 12AU7 and RCA 5Y3G rectifier)...so neither of these are inherently bright.  Well, maybe the Exact cartridge may be considered to be a little brighter than other carts. Mark.

PS...thanks JD...I'll start looking.
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 15:19:36 by mark58 »  
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JD
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #6 - 01/07/14 at 15:29:04
 
Mark just saw you are running a rega p6 throught the zp3. I am as well only difference being I am using an black 2m ortofon cart.  I love mullards in the 12ax7 spots and have recently fell in love using a cifte 12au7 that has added some warmth as well.  That one is about 60 for a cryo'd platinum tube from upscaleaudio. Good luck in your search.

JD
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #7 - 01/07/14 at 15:33:11
 
JD,  I'm thinking of getting a different Cartridge.  I'm having distortion and hum problems that may be the Exact Cart from what I've read.  Do you use shims with the ortofon black Cart?  If so can you close the Dust Cover?   Mark.
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #8 - 01/07/14 at 16:02:45
 
Digger,  just saw your suggestion to try the stock tube in the rectifier position on the CSP3....I'll try it next listening session.  Thanks, Mark.
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Digger
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #9 - 01/07/14 at 16:20:34
 
   Mark,
   I had looked at the Jolida cd player before deciding to do the BiFrost route. My concern was the 12ax7 tubes in the front of my system. I wasn't really sure I wanted to put ax7's up front. I know the ax7's are a very nice tube for detail but for me they seem a little to edgy and sharp and bit cutting. Maybe you changing to the NOS Raytheon 12ax7's helped you out in that respect. What I had to do with the first BiFrost I received and keep in mind it wasn't burned in during the time I had it was I trimmed the CSP3 inputs down as low as I could and raised the outputs up to compensate the loss of volume. It did work and made it more tolerable but not what I would of wanted to keep. It maybe a thought if you haven't given it a try. When I finally do get my hands on the Uber I may also be left in the situation you are in with your setup. I guess at that time I'll decide if I will go the exotic tube route as JD suggested to you. I've been trying to avoid the high dollar tubes to get things to sound good. I'm not sure if the signal from the BiFrost was just a bit to hot or if the High frequency that I didn't care for was just natural for the unit. Just thought I'd run it by you! I am running the Tung Sol gold pin 12ax7 tubes in the front of my Jolida and switched the output side to 1963 NOS RT 12at7's and it has mellowed it out a bit. The Tung Sols are fairly smooth sounding. I would like to keep the sound the way it is currently after adding the BiFrost but will have to see what happens.
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Digger
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #10 - 01/07/14 at 16:47:53
 
Mark,
     I found these at Parts Express if you find that there maybe a hot signal causing your situation. I maybe exploring these with the BiFrost once I receive it if needed.


http://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=in%20line%20attentuators%20rca&...



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will
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #11 - 01/07/14 at 17:00:36
 
I don't know the National Union. Trying the Valve Art will be interesting... may help, that big tubey sound. And I agree with JD that Mullard inputs tend to be warm, but your 6N1Ps are pretty warm. Of course it depends on the Mullard, but in general, I think the bigger difference you might get from Mullards might be more about added delicacy in handling the sound, more micro information, which in turn could reduce edge.

I think the stock 6N1Ps and Valve Art 274B makes a pretty warm presentation in the CSP3. Have you tried borrowing your RCA 5Y3 from the Torii, and see what that does. That is a pretty warm tube, and if it does not help, this is telling. Then, if good, but not enough, try the RCA 5U4G-ST there. It will push the amp harder than the 5Y3, more body and dynamics.

I really like RCA 5U4G-STs. They will likely give you a very refined interpretation of the music, and they will also give you more push and body in the Torii, as would the Valve Arts there...That could potentially fix the Torii, but then what about the Taboo?

If you are getting this sound you don't like with both amps similarly following the CSP3, and with headphones AND your Zus, your table or ZP3 may well be the things to look at. But then if the Jolida CD and table are similar in this problem also, some adsorption to tame the mid/upper mids may be the thing. The Room thing... Have you had this before in that room with different gear?

I have the opposite problem here, my setting tends to too much warmth, body and bass.
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 17:07:11 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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JD
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #12 - 01/07/14 at 19:29:01
 
Hey Mark,

I'm using the rega 3 point spacer set a 2mm level.  This was suggested and put on when I bought the rega p6 through needledoctor.  I did a lot of research and although some don't think it is necessary I'm not sure how it isn't.  With the spacer the arm is parallel with my platter.  Without the spacer it would not be parallel.  I cannot close the dustcover without it bumping into my tonearm so I placed a couple of felt pads on the front corners of the rega to leave just enough room and allow the dustcover to close.  No idea how rega can sell the spacer but not tell you it won't close when you use it...wtf?
I chose the ortofon over the exact cuz like you said something about the open casing allows more hum. I'm hum free and happy...

JD
ps. let me know what you end up doing.
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Digger
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #13 - 01/07/14 at 20:01:25
 
Hey guys,
     Lots of trouble shooting ideas thrown out here for you Mark I hope one will be of use to you. I just would like to get my system close as not to depend on locating tubes that maybe harder to get as time goes on. I could see that as a problem getting dependent on hard to get tubes. Anyway everyone happy listening!



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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #14 - 01/07/14 at 20:31:23
 
Thanks guys for all the suggestions.  I'll come back and address replies when time allows.

JD, when I get around to taking my TT to a Rega dealer...if they are willing to give me a credit/refund for the exact, I may try something else...the Ortofon you have or maybe a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.  I read a review about the Wood that sounded like it would be what I'm looking for.

If the dealer will only replace or repair the exact....that'd be OK too.  I don't mind the sound of it, just the Hum and distortion. Mark.
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 22:28:54 by mark58 »  
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Lon
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #15 - 01/07/14 at 20:44:58
 
I LOVE my Exact. . . sorry if you're having trouble with yours Mark, but mine isn't going anywhere. Smiley
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #16 - 01/07/14 at 20:59:00
 
Lon, I did some reading in the past couple days and some Exact Carts were/are defective.  I don't know if that explains the relatively loud hum I have which increases as the tonearm/cartridge travels towards the spindle.

In reading, the distortion I have may be in part from tracking error and I plan on resetting VTF and Anti-skate/Bias before using the TT again to see if this improves things.  

I could easily live with the sound of the exact just not the Hum or distortion.   One way or another i want a TT setup that's without Hum and distortion....with or without the exact.  Mark.
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Lon
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #17 - 01/07/14 at 21:32:44
 
Don't blame you Mark, sorry you're having troubles, hope you get them squared away.
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JD
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #18 - 01/07/14 at 22:39:39
 
Mark,

Great idea about resetting VTF and anti-tracking.  Also check the balance weight and the bias adjustment based on what the exact cartridge asks for.  My balance weight was a little heavy and was throwing off my cart.  I found as the stylus moved towards the center of the record pops and clicks occured.  I had a hard time getting my stylus to float just 1mm (pg 4 in rega p6 manual)above the platter to set this. What I thought was a mm was actually closer to 3 mm.  It was very difficult to see with everything on my p6 being black.  It took my a while to figure this out and was getting very frustrated thinking it was just the way it is.  I did experience hum and had to move my turntable away from the cable box and also keep the rega power supply interconnects away from various power cords.  Took me a while to figure this stuff out so I understand your frustration.
best of luck

JD
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #19 - 01/08/14 at 16:37:56
 
I haven't done any listening in two days.  I have 3 hours blocked out tonight to listen and try a few changes.  If moving the TT and re-routing cables in addition to resetting the VTF and anti-skate don't fix the hum and distortion, I'll take it to a dealer I've located in Dallas.

I'm also going to try the stock rectifier in the CSP3 to see if things warm up a bit with the HD800s with the Silver Poison cables.  I'll also do an AB comparison with the stock cable to try to nail down the differences.  Mark.
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mark58
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #20 - 01/08/14 at 19:21:07
 
OK,  I couldn't wait.  Here's what I've done...put the stock rectifier in the CSP3...it may be my imagination but it does seem to have warmed things slightly.

I am using the Rega RP6 TT to ZP3 to CSP3 used with HD800 headphones thus taking both my Amps out of the picture.  I moved the turntable about three feet so now the center of the CSP3 is over 2 feet away from the spindle of the TT.  The ZP3 is on the floor and as far away as 1 meter cables would allow. I rerouted the power cable of the ZP3 and the wall wart of the Rega power box (which is on the floor) away from other cables and plugged them into their own Power Conditioner...the RSA Haley.  All other equipment is plugged into a  RSA Jaco Power Conditioner...CSP3, Taboo, Torii, Jolida 100 CDP.  I have also reset the vtf to 1.75 as specified by Rega.  The anti skate I have set at one as I had read that this might be better...I previously had it at 1.75 but anyone who owns a Rega TT knows, setting this is less than accurate and is said not to matter much.  Somewhere between 2 and 1 is probably OK.

Bottom line after all this effort?  Well, the hum with tonearm/cartridge increasing with movement toward the spindle is still as loud as ever and the distortion mainly in the left channel is too.  In addition since moving the CSP3 it is now above the ZP3 and seems to have made the hum from it louder...but I can live with that hum.  So I guess I'll make a call to the dealer and take the TT to the Doctor.  I hope it's as easy as putting on a new cartridge.  Mark.  

PS...I used Pat Metheny's "Water Colors" LP for the listening test.   Electric Guitar, Piano and wind instruments seem to cause the distortion.  Bass and Drums don't seem to cause the distortion.
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« Last Edit: 01/08/14 at 19:26:09 by mark58 »  
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Lon
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #21 - 01/08/14 at 20:24:48
 
Damnit, it DOES sound as if the cartridge is the culprit. Sorry Mark, hope no matter what is what it's settled soon. I know how you have to have your lps!

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Digger
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Re: Warm input tube for CSP-3?
Reply #22 - 01/08/14 at 23:25:03
 
Mark58
       If that is the Valve Art 274 B it isn't your imagination. I really like the sound of that tube. Any way hope you can get that cartridge squared away.

Good Luck



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