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Frustrating SET Bashers (Read 4989 times)
Lonely Raven
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Frustrating SET Bashers
12/25/13 at 04:41:04
 

So, I was doing some research, and I stumbled into this thread that I find so frustrating.

How exactly do you debate the educated, skilled, measurement types when they bash SET amps as "bad" from the get-go?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/72006-mysteries-set...

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Doorman
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #1 - 12/25/13 at 05:10:56
 
No debate necessary !
Science also states bumblebees can't possibly fly, either !!
Merry Christmas to all.
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armstdav
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #2 - 12/25/13 at 05:20:11
 
That thread is from almost 3 years ago, so I'm guessing they're no longer debating.   Smiley

But seriously, who cares? I love my SE34.2+, and don't really care if the measurements prove it's a "good" amp. I also love my Modwright LS-100, and most other 6SN7 preamps I've heard, despite the "non-linear" characteristics of the 6SN7. And don't even mention my Zu Druids, plenty think they couldn't possibly sound like anything but crap!

It's like arguing religion, much rhetoric but few minds are changed. Be confident in what you hear, and pick equipment that gives you a pleasing sound. Then enjoy the music, and don't look back or apologize or feel the need to defend it.

At least until the upgrade bug hits.    ;D

David
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« Last Edit: 12/25/13 at 05:21:36 by armstdav »  
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #3 - 12/25/13 at 16:21:11
 
Pick your Illusion!  I choose Decware, for my ear to brain connection. It's in the Harmonics...my brain needs.

Just let the spec types Listen to their odd order Sand Amps. I have had some of the best so called Sand Amps in my Listening Room and could not wait to get them out/returned!

As Steve mentioned: let them voice their Amps with a Scope. ....that is akin to Tuning a Piano with Plunger.     -S
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #4 - 12/25/13 at 16:39:29
 

I agree with you all, but it's threads and people like that which chase away real music lovers who otherwise might have found real audio nirvana.

Then again, the measurement guy doesn't have any room treatment, that's all I need to to see that he doesn't know what he's talking about...
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marky
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #5 - 12/25/13 at 20:11:45
 
Apprenticed to STC in the early `70`s I never even knew they had anything to do with valves. By then it was all trannys and the new IC`s. Studying all 3 was a chore but the valve diagrams always sparked the imagination more than the in/out of transistors.. They were treated as times gone by. So easy to just go with the flow, you thought transistors were better, but deep down, when it came to audio, tubes were the end game.... later on when you could catch your breath. All those electrons flowing in 3D (maybe 4). It`s like a homecoming. Definitely more fun as well, and with Steves amps its a joy.
lol It`s good it`s a `one stop shop`
for amps. No signature,reference, anniversary,etc upgrades.
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« Last Edit: 12/25/13 at 20:28:00 by marky »  

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Mark
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #6 - 12/27/13 at 16:30:44
 
Musicality is an elusive goal... Sometimes it's an amplifier's anomalies that make it musical... Very subjective territory for sure... But my ears don't lie... I am a pianist and long-time Hi Fi buff... And I know what instruments in the orchestra should sound like...

Also, SETs definitely add something to the recordings... Who can say exactly what... But it is pleasing to my ear... (m.)
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maddog07
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #7 - 12/27/13 at 17:37:33
 
you get "results" for what you measure.  I purport, that the objectivists have not yet discovered "what" attribute(or at least all attributes) of sound reproduction are responsible for making our ears/brains think that the sound from tube amps is more real and lifelike sounding.  I think we know that tube amps even order harmonics are “natural” and sandamp odd-order harmonics are not…. But I suspect there is even more to it than that.  But who cares!?… let them waste time arguing about it, while I’m enjoying music!  I have chosen with my ears, and I chose Decware amps and high-sensitivity, crossoverless, full-rangers to get me the closest to “live” that I have yet experienced….

Grin
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AiDee
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #8 - 12/28/13 at 19:49:40
 
It's important not to confuse objectivists with science or scientists. These things are not remotely the same.

From my experiences with objectivists in the 'sound science' forum of head-fi, most confuse their subjective personality preferences (for an orderly, black/white world?) with the 'objective' frameworks they know a little bit about.

Just because - on this platform - they assert a superior position doesn't mean it is.
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #9 - 12/28/13 at 23:13:43
 
I remember a time, many years ago, when measurements drove the sale of audio gear.  And measurements nearly drove the business into the ground.

Yes, the numbers are important and yes they have meaning.  All is trumped, however, by the reality that we seek to reproduce and hear (listen to) the sound of an event passed and gone.  Do not rely solely on what is measurable, because that is not the event.  

Enjoy the music, or enjoy the measurements.

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DPC
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #10 - 12/29/13 at 19:12:39
 
There is one undeniable truth in this hobby:  One can always find someone who feels that any component is flawed!  The internet has only served to allow us access to find/read more of those folks.
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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #11 - 12/29/13 at 19:38:51
 
Yeah, on a jazz board I'm trying hard not to argue with a few people (one an electrical engineer so he's sure he's talking the gospel truth) who are trying to convince everyone that wire of any kind makes no difference, and what's more they can hear no difference. If I hear a difference, I'm making it up.

It never occurs to these people that perhaps they can't hear the difference. They go through the roof if you suggest that. But we're supposed to calmly accept that we are making ourselves believe we hear differences.

I'm learning to just let them spout their stuff unchallenged. The hard way.
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DPC
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #12 - 12/29/13 at 20:27:45
 
Hate to admit it but I have been listening to music since five AM.  In my defense it is a gloomy, cold and blustery day outside.  My house is clean and all the laundry is done and put away.

Just poured a glass of Paso Robles Cabernet Sauvignon.  The little SET amp has seen many different artist's today.  If the recording was good the sound is excellent.

Is that not what we are looking for?
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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #13 - 12/30/13 at 17:49:30
 
Yeah, just like the dogmatic defenders of prevailing engineering dogma, I find some of the magical thinking on the part of some SET proponents is equally frustrating.  Lon should try a real ABX comparison with his cherished magic wires, maybe after visiting an audiologist to confirm his super-human hearing. Roll Eyes  Good grief, man.  

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mark58
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #14 - 12/30/13 at 18:58:40
 
Now, Now children!  Let's play nice in the Decware Sandbox...hehe. There's room enough for everyone here...Believers and non-believers alike. Mark.

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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #15 - 12/30/13 at 19:49:01
 
ski, I have done comparisons with previous wires, pretty confident of my findings. But it doesn't matter if you don't approve. I'm enjoying the benefits.

I'm done with the main system. Really enjoying how wonderful it sounds with the cabling I have.

Oh, and just to clarify: I'm an SET supporter, but I listen to push-pull.
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« Last Edit: 12/30/13 at 19:52:48 by Lon »  

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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #16 - 12/30/13 at 21:41:15
 
Believer/non-believer is a false equivalence when actual evidence is available supporting one side of the debate but not the other.

I don't believe in audiophile mythology, and if you disapprove, that's ok.  I'm enjoying the benefits.  
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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #17 - 12/30/13 at 22:04:36
 
I don't believe in audiophile mythology either. I believe in what my ears tell me.

I neither approve or disapprove about objectivist/subjectivist. I just don't approve of someone telling me my ears are lying to me. Which some do.
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« Last Edit: 12/30/13 at 22:05:47 by Lon »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #18 - 12/30/13 at 22:44:59
 

Yeah, some things.... I can't fully explain the things I hear. Maybe not everything we are doing has a defined way to quantify and measure at this time? How do you measure sound that's so "liquid" and "has weight", it's almost a fluid rushing from the speakers in a visceral sense? I've had that experience with a Decware amp and speakers, and I can barely describe it, let alone guess how to measure for it!

While I *know* I used to have above average hearing, I'm pretty sure that's going downhill pretty quickly at 42. But with the "training" I've put myself through (which is a fancy way of saying "listening and paying attention"), I've retained a lot of listening skills through my declining hearing. I can, and do still hear differences in speaker cables and interconnects and of course tubes. I've yet to hear any differences in power cords; *assuming* we aren't talking about one that's intentionally doing something to the current, or is substandard. IMHO - a cables goal is to do the least amount of damage to the signal going from point A to point B. Hell, I think that's the point of the slide-rule and scope audio guys - all equipment should send the signal unmolested from point A to point B - but I really don't think that's how bringing the music *alive* works...and that's what they aren't getting.

On the plus side, I got a great compliment form Steve at Decfest; he said something along the lines of "Eric hears things the way I hear things".



:)
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #19 - 12/30/13 at 23:13:57
 
I am a Kimber Select fan.

I have found 2 pair of Speakers and now with the addition of my Gallo 3.1's...I have 3 pair of Speakers at modest efficiency that can actually play very well with my SE84CS & SuperZen CKC. It is nice to see the Martin Logan Thread and how they can play too. I know their was a gentleman using Von Swag's and of course the gentlemen with the Decware Mono Blocks with Wilson's with Kimber Select.

My point being....it is the matching of components and cables. Kimber Select is lost on Hi-Efficiency Speakers for me as an example. Plus, I just don't prefer Hi-Eff Speaks. Those that say their is no difference in cables...I can't relate to those people. My Kimber KS1030 & KS3035 in my Listening Room & Kimber Hero & KS3033 in my bedroom System are so liquid and lush' holographic with my Decware Amps and for my tastes...I could not be without them.  -S

PS-Kimber has been selling the Select Line to Music Lover's for 15 years now. From my observations, the majority of Kimber's customers are not people with "F-you money" (as that saying goes).  I don't have F-you money.....so my Select Cables have been a great investment.
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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #20 - 12/31/13 at 00:59:42
 
Lon, your ears are very likely deceiving you, believe it or not.  Don't take that as a personal criticism, it's simply human nature.  I'm not sure why you would be so testy at your engineer friend on the jazz forum, or me, on such a settled topic as the mutability of human perception.  It's basic cognitive science.  You seem as in denial about that branch of science as you are on basic electrical theory on the wire thing.

 
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 01:11:01 by ski bum »  
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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #21 - 12/31/13 at 01:23:11
 
Ski bum, I didn't come to this lightly, and I've had others listening with me and apart from me that have come to similar conclusions. Sorry, I'm not taking your word, or anyone else's about what I hear or can't hear. And electrical science may not encompass all the knowledge taken to explain these differences. Regardless I respect your opinion but it is not lessening either my own experiential knowledge and conclusions, nor my enjoyment of the improvements.

The bottom line is that I don't WANT to hear improvements, but do, and I trust my own senses and experiences. I don't think "basic cognitive science" is as definitive or comprehensive as some others do.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 02:31:17 by Lon »  

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JD
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #22 - 12/31/13 at 06:01:49
 
Ski bum,

This forum is fantastic because people share their beliefs and musical interests.  Take from it or leave it alone no judgement either way.  Negativity is unnecessary. It's totally cool to believe in something else just don't challenge someone else's belief.  You hear what you hear...let it be.

JD
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #23 - 12/31/13 at 06:44:04
 
Quote:
The bottom line is that I don't WANT to hear improvements, but do, and I trust my own senses and experiences. I don't think "basic cognitive science" is as definitive or comprehensive as some others do.


That about sums it up for me as well...I'm a huge skeptic; everything has to prove itself to me or *out it goes*.

I was really thinking those Herbie's Tube Dampers were just another toy, though I could see how they *could* work. The change was surprising enough that I put in a $340 order on other stuff to try out (which also has to prove itself or it goes back!).

Steve's Zen Styx are another product I was skeptical of...Steve said this wire is good out to 40' before it starts to affect the sound, and is otherwise the best bang for the buck in neutrality. Sure, that all sounds great, but how does it sound when the rubber meets the road in my place? yeah, I have that wire now, and started making power cables from it as well (though as I've said, not hearing power cables making a difference in my current system).

So now I'm going to see about the PS Audio Power Plant things....see if they can prove themselves to me...especially at that crazy cost that I wouldn't otherwise be paying (or affording honestly).


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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #24 - 12/31/13 at 12:32:44
 
Coming up on 40 years that I have been in this Mayhem of listening to audio equipment and changing this amp or that speaker ,or those interconnects. NEVER happy with the results, driving miles and miles to hear this or that. getting false opinions from store owners , just so they could sell their equipment and make a buck. And again NEVER happy. Enter SET and single driver speakers. The same things that made those floor standing radios when I was a kid sound so good . Oh we are not here to talk about single driver speakers ,however they do go hand in hand. This is OLD technology , maybe the oldest technology. Shame on them for bashing technology that started it all. 2 watts and 95 DB drivers , Ill take that all day. Shame!!! Happy New Year  
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 12:42:04 by jameskk »  
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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #25 - 12/31/13 at 13:02:28
 
Eric, Glad the Herbie's Audio Lab material has proven their usefulness to you!
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 13:02:53 by Lon »  

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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #26 - 12/31/13 at 14:14:26
 
Using Lon's logic, the world must be flat.  It sure doesn't look spherical, at least not from where I'm standing, so therefore science is wrong and the world is flat.  I'm going with what my eyes tell me, as I have super-human vision, and nobody will convince me otherwise!

SMH




     



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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #27 - 12/31/13 at 14:27:50
 
NO, where I am it's hilly, not flat.

Nowhere do I claim I have superhuman anything. But if some others can't hear what I hear, and some others do, there could be a variation in hearing skills within the norm. That's a conclusion I can come to with logic.

Whatever ski. No offense, but logic isn't all to life, and I trust my senses in things audio. And I'm not alone. As long as we're both enjoying what we hear our lives are enriched.  I'd appreciate if you would stop mocking me.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 14:47:00 by Lon »  

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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #28 - 12/31/13 at 15:06:19
 
Ski bum,

    I'm by no means an authority on any thing and I plan on keeping it that way. Life is to short to argue and analyze things to death. I do like to hear others observations and can also learn something from them on occasions. Nothing is worth getting in a Pi%@# match over. I have personally heard differences in speaker wire and I don't mean $1,000 dollar wire more like Radio Shacks special wire. From different strand thicknesses to different gauge sizes. Mainly in the treble and bass and some resolution of the sound so I do believe there are audible differences in certain wire. I have no experience with super high end products do to not being worth it to me. The differences to me do not necessarily justify the cost but you shouldn't bash someone for having the ability to search and seek the available products that are out there and tell what they have learned. I'm grateful for those that do it keeps me from the need to purchase some of those things that I really can't afford personally but through them I do get to experience what they are experiencing and that is a great thing. Please I appreciate your position on what you believe but also appreciate others for what they believe.

    Its all about enjoying music or enjoying the music along with the equipment as a hobby or whatever doesn't matter. Its about the expansion of thought that a lot of us have on this sight try not to be to narrow is my feelings! As long as were here to enjoy things life is good. My father is in the hospital in bad shape that would be the other! That's the bad half of a good life.
    Hey all have a good day and keep on spinning them!

Have a Happy New Year!

Cheers,


Grin



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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #29 - 12/31/13 at 15:26:57
 
Digger, sorry to hear about your Dad, I'm struggling to keep mine out of the hospital. Hope his situation improves. Happy new year!
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #30 - 12/31/13 at 15:38:57
 

Lon,

    Thanks for your kind thoughts. It seems that we are very closely seeing the the other part of life and it is tough seeing your loved ones going through it. Our time is also coming. Good luck with your father!
My fathers time is close and he has some tough decisions to make over the next couple of days. He will be 80 tomorrow.


You also Have a Happy New Year!


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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #31 - 12/31/13 at 16:15:33
 
Happy New Years guys - you and your families will be in our thoughts.

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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #32 - 12/31/13 at 16:26:35
 
Ditto from me to Lon & Digger. I have aging parent whom live with me the first week of May through the first week of October. They spend the Winter in South Texas where my aunt & uncle help.

Everyone have a Happy New Year! Enjoy some music. I am cleaning some Vinyl later after I run some errands. My girl friend and I will be spinning them tonight (home/body NYEve)!   Cheers, Stone of Tone
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 16:27:36 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
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Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
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Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #33 - 12/31/13 at 16:38:42
 
LonelyRaven,
 
      Just wanted to post a reply to your posting about understanding what your hearing and everyone being different. Like you I have worked in multiple different industries over the years and have experienced a lot of different things involving people and how differently we all perceive things to be. An awful lot has to do with our systems compatible parts do they all work together for the best or do we have weak links to them effecting what we hear.
      I left my construction job some years back and took a position selling High end wines for a local distributor. I had a book full of great wines Opus 1, Fransican, Silver Oak and many others. The funny thing about the differences in peoples perception of taste is very similar to Music and what we hear and we all hear stuff very differently if taken over enough samples of people. I used to do blind tastings say 10-20 people at a time and I would have them all taste the wines and write down what they were tasting as far as the different fruits and wood flavors as detailed as they possibly could. Keep in mind we have expert tasters with notes stating what they will taste. It was funny that usually about 1/2 of the crowd would agree with the professional tasters notes and the other half were all tasting something totally different and there notes didn't agree with the scientific results of a professional taster. Now I don't think that the logic of science takes this into consideration and every thing is black and white to them. They don't understand humans and human nature and the differences in senses they have not been able to duplicate a model for all and I seriously doubt they ever will at least in my lifetime. In this regard I believe we all have different levels of senses that allows many to experience things in life very differently.
It was a very good experience leaving construction but have since returned back to my god given talent appreciating all of the experiences that I had gained from it.
      Music is like wine in that business we used to call it very subjective and that truly is what music is as far as every ones difference in what they hear. Just thought I'd share this to support your reply.




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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:10:34 by Digger »  
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #34 - 12/31/13 at 17:05:19
 
I could not agree more Digger. Larry Archibald....whom owned Stereophile out of Santa Fe NM...was/is quite the Wine Connoisseur ...and wrote extensively about what you just said 21 & 28 years ago.
..........the Cable Wars too....AND if this Solid State Amp is right this Tube Amp must be Wrong...cover issue....Stereophile (years ago).  

So, the Ski Bums of the world...I addressed a quarter Century ago. I have 28 years experience...some people have one years experience 28 times.  -S
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #35 - 12/31/13 at 17:23:36
 
You're right, Lon, I'm out of line to single you out, so I offer my apologies.  Sorry for being a buzz kill.  And Stone-of-Tone, based on your other posts, we're not so different in our perspectives.  I find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what you contribute.      

That all being said, I don't think it's out of line to question folks beliefs.  Lots of folks believe some ridiculous things that have no basis in reality and deserve to be challenged.  Look at our elected officials, for example.  They actually deserve more than hard questions...pitch and feathers seems more appropriate to me most days, if not straight up prison time.  Pack of idiots, all of them, and voted into power by a gullible society that values truthiness over reason and reality.  

If those beliefs are stated as fact and are concerning a quantifiable reductive endeavor, such as music playback on audio systems, then their claims are open to question and criticism, strictly on technical merits.  If they're merely stating personal preference, there is no argument to be made.

And people are rude in cyberspace, including me. Embarrassed

So if an objectivist frustrates you by berating your chosen amps, tell them that you simply like distortion and it will stop them in their tracks.  Kind of like asking a wire believer to do an ABX test leads to a hasty retreat from the challenge.  Then everyone can go back to their music and live happily ever after in their tunnel realities where they are not confronted with uncomfortable questions. Roll Eyes

[Wow, I'm cynical today.  I need my team to win a freakin game, I've got sports-fan affective disorder and it's making me very chippy!]

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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 17:41:57 by ski bum »  
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #36 - 12/31/13 at 17:31:14
 
I have done ABX tests in the past, and identified wire correctly. I find a lot of these things hurled by objectivists to be protectionist twaddle. So tired of the superior attitude of some of them and I have begun to think they're feeding their prejudices and justifying their unwillingness to spend money.* So I bristle now when I end up in their sights.

*Just my take from years of this same stuff spewed out over and over that does not match my own individual experience. It just seems so silly.

Anyone is welcome to their opinion, and no one has to agree with them. That's how I operate.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 17:43:54 by Lon »  

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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #37 - 12/31/13 at 18:00:32
 
I too have participated in one of those awful ABX tests.  (There has never been a listening session devised more bereft of joy or pleasure as an ABX test.)  

But I had a different experience and came to different conclusions.  It's saved me hundreds, perhaps thousands, over those who buy the cable myth, and frankly there are much better uses for that money.

I'm surprised my view is such a minority at Decware forums.  Part of the appeal of Decware is the value proposition, so I would expect posters to be more supportive about the least expensive, most direct route to the compelling illusion we're all after.  Wasting resources where audible differences are questionable at best and illusory at worst is a detour, a potentially wildly expensive digression, and shows more compulsive behavior about the gear and minutia than a genuine appreciation of the music.  Audiophile nervosa.  Monster's business plan.  It works.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:15:44 by ski bum »  
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #38 - 12/31/13 at 18:07:31
 


No more coffee for me today! Unless its Decaf.





Grin




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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:13:04 by Digger »  
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #39 - 12/31/13 at 18:16:42
 
My next cup will be half Irish cream...

Sorry for the contentiousness folks.  I'm taking a break.
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #40 - 12/31/13 at 18:26:27
 
SkiBum

     I think for some it is there hobby of choice so they will spend on equipment to make it the best it can be. With that being said we all should be able to understand it. If I didn't have the other hobby interests that I have I may be a whole lot more willing to spend the money on equipment a bit more freely. My summer hobby's tend to suck up a bit more money than my music interests. I will say there will probably be a day when I give them up and will put additional money into my music equipment and it wouldn't bother me a bit. You have to have some type of a release in life and a reason to get out of bed and go to work besides just eating. At least that is my feelings getting thru another day. All depends on your needs and priorities in life and timing is everything.






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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #41 - 12/31/13 at 18:28:11
 

SkiBum,

    That Irish Creme really does sound good!

Have a Happy New Year!


Grin


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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #42 - 12/31/13 at 18:56:12
 
ski bum wrote on 12/31/13 at 18:00:32:
I too have participated in one of those awful ABX tests.  (There has never been a listening session devised more bereft of joy or pleasure as an ABX test.)  

But I had a different experience and came to different conclusions.  It's saved me hundreds, perhaps thousands, over those who buy the cable myth, and frankly there are much better uses for that money.

I'm surprised my view is such a minority at Decware forums.  Part of the appeal of Decware is the value proposition, so I would expect posters to be more supportive about the least expensive, most direct route to the compelling illusion we're all after.  Wasting resources where audible differences are questionable at best and illusory at worst is a detour, a potentially wildly expensive digression, and shows more compulsive behavior about the gear and minutia than a genuine appreciation of the music.  Audiophile nervosa.  Monster's business plan.  It works.


Or perhaps you'r hearing is different. Or perhaps your desire for the myths to be untrue is so strong that it has influenced what you perceive.

I've spent far far more on music than equipment, so I'm not a hardware fetishist. I want to get closer to the music. Power, isolation and wire experimentation have shown me that I can as all these are not uniform. One doesn't have to spend megabucks, but wire is different one from the other, and I've not been unconvinced of that.

We can each own our opinions and listening abilities and music collections and enjoy the hobby. Happy new year.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:58:13 by Lon »  

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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #43 - 12/31/13 at 19:00:59
 
I wouldn`t normally have posted this...but in the context it seems ok.
You listen to your Decware set up....oh this is just great.
Days later, it`s your norm,
do you just keep with it,
drop a different tube in somewhere,
Or                        (if you already have v/g stuff)
get fidgety
and check out cable manufactures....I would mind trying those,
power cables...ditto
and on and on whenever a great sound gets to be the `norm`

Envious, of course, in small letters......and not envious equally.
I`ve learned to sit still and appreciate and not get drawn too much,
knowing the reasons for wandering.

lol the vibration gear is gnawing me.

As for distortion....what distortion, every time I play the same record it`s a different take = detail + SET magic




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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 19:14:45 by marky »  

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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #44 - 12/31/13 at 19:33:22
 
Quote:
I'm surprised my view is such a minority at Decware forums.  Part of the appeal of Decware is the value proposition, so I would expect posters to be more supportive about the least expensive, most direct route to the compelling illusion we're all after.  Wasting resources where audible differences are questionable at best and illusory at worst is a detour, a potentially wildly expensive digression, and shows more compulsive behavior about the gear and minutia than a genuine appreciation of the music.  Audiophile nervosa.  Monster's business plan.  It works.


But see, that's exactly the point...to these Decware folks, the proof is in the playback.  :D

Again, I'm super skeptical - everything in my system has to have proven itself in A/B testing in my system.

I have a good friend who's been loosely on this journey with me since I got my first Zen Amp 15 years ago. I *know* he hears and enjoys music differently than me (for some reason he loves sitting really, really near field between the speakers - almost like he's trying to replicate headphone sound  :-?). But I'll give him a hand-full of cables, my hand made ones that I'm very proud of, my Decware Silver Reference, Some "high end" Monster Cable, and whatever else I can find. I've already listened to this stuff and have my own notes on my own system, I simply hand him a box of cables and ask him to report back to me. And guess what, he comes back with almost exactly the same notes that I have, and picks the same two cables as his favorites as I did - and not by looks either, because I left my favorite cable a bit "unfinished" vs some of my other hand made cables.

So yes, when the proof is in the playback, and my friend comes back with the same notes as me, that says something.

I also know (or at least have a strong suspicion, judging from our dialog) that if I sent these same cables to Lon, except for one that I know is complete crap, Lon would probably pick a different cable as his favorite and least favorite because his listening preference is different than mine...but I bet his notes would be pretty close to mine because the differences are there.

So, back to the Decware thing...yes, Steve started this out to be a the everyman's affordable amp gear, but when you get to a certain point, you have no choice but to spend money to get really nice...whatever. There are some very talented people out there who really listen, and have figured out what works and what's crap and developed real products that, unfortunately, cost a bit to produce and cost a bit to keep them in business.

I will gladly A/B test lamp cord, vs Decware Styx, vs whatever. Granted the closer you get to "doesn't damage the signal at all" the more the cables will start to sound alike - but there is no way lamp cord is going to sound better than my Styx. I know, because I've already gone though the tests myself. Lampcord vs Monster, vs "high end monster" vs CAT5 vs 10 gauge Romex vs....I don't know, I've lost count. You can't tell me there isn't a difference.

Ok, I'm rambling again, too much coffee for me as well, and I have a 3 hours drive home.

Talk to you all later!
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #45 - 12/31/13 at 19:54:24
 
Marky, you raise some good points. I go through phases and they are usually marked/fueled by component changes. Each upgrade in that arena means an opportunity to maximize sound quality by experimentation. And then I find a plateau of excellent sound and relax into it.

I've gone top to bottom the last few years with my system due to having some extra dollars and I'm at a point where I don't want to make any further changes, this new plateau has me able to listen to most of my material with wonderful abandon and the really well recorded stuff is just stellar. Soon I'll swap my new HR-1s out for the original pair and see if there's a significant difference there.

I think this plateau will be a long lasting one, especially as my time in front of the system is so challenged, and so deeply enjoyed when in swing..
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 20:13:51 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #46 - 12/31/13 at 22:05:37
 
Hi Lon, I was just wondering if you have experimented with room correction devices such as diffusors, etc.? (I know you use isolation devices like Herbie's, but what about the big picture as in the actual room?)
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #47 - 12/31/13 at 23:43:54
 
No I haven't Hans. For a long time it was verboten in my household by my other half, and as I had a living-room dining-room setup I just couldn't figure out how to incorporate it and still live in the room, so I have not explored that. Now I rent and have a very small living area and I'm not doing that either.

I know also that some of my cabling and other choices might change with room conditioning. . . it's just not an avenue I am likely to explore. I probably have compensated somewhat via other means. I already spend enough time futzing, don't seem myself futzing into that new realm any time soon (in large part because I don't see myself becoming a home-owner again any time soon).
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #48 - 01/01/14 at 02:31:06
 
That makes sense Lon.  I rent too and don't have the luxury of a dedicated listening area ... and truth be told that's not the way I like to enjoy my music or movies anyways.  I like to listen (or watch) while I'm cooking and or bonding with my son, etc.  My main system is in a great room though (with no fourth wall so to speak as it's open to the kitchen).  But still I know I should be doing a few things that would/could improve the sound.
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #49 - 01/05/14 at 22:54:50
 
       Hi, All that have been following this thread. I recently received some power cables from Audio Advisor that I had read a lot of positive feedback . I picked up a Pangea Audio-AC-9 Power cable for my Jolida 502P and an Pangea Audio-AC-14-SE Power cable for the CSP3 in my system. I wasn't real thrilled with the stock power cords but didn't want to spend a fortune on power cords either. So far I am very happy with the performance of both in the system. After all of the previous discussions about cables and all I figured I'd go ahead and post my impressions on these power cords. The criteria that I was most interested in finding in a cable was its shielding and these are both shielded and both do a very good job in the noise reduction department. There have been no negative issues induced into the sound from these cables at least nothing to mention. Here is what I have noticed as being different than the stock cables. The system seems to have a blacker back ground along with a bit deeper bass thump and a bit more articulation in the highs. These are the impressions so far from adding these cables into the system as of now only about 15 hours of usage on them so not sure if these will have any burn in time required. These are sure a major step up from stock and didn't break the bank to get there so I figure these will be keepers. These cables are rather impressively made and the AC-9 is massive in size. My goal is to make reasonable up grades to the system enough to say good enough and these do the job.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/Pangea-Audio-AC-9-Power-Cable/productinfo/PGAC9/#.Us...

http://www.audioadvisor.com/Pangea-Audio-AC-14-Signature-Power-Cable/productinfo...


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« Last Edit: 01/05/14 at 23:13:56 by Digger »  
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #50 - 01/06/14 at 00:17:32
 
Digger, thanks for sharing your impressions. Pangaea have been getting good reviews, and their designer had a big hand in the PS Audio cables I love, and they share some design and component features. Glad you are enjoying them! My guess is that they'll shift in sound a little and then stabilize at about 250 to 300 hours or so.
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #51 - 01/06/14 at 01:07:08
 
Lon,

Thanks for the info. During the time I've had to listen a few hours at a time they have seemed to change a bit but don't really know where there heading. Slightly different each time I have powered things up at least that has been my perception with them. These look to be very well made and fit my budget for the time being. Really didn't know what to expect with upgraded power cords but definitely worth the investment looking at it as a longer term one. I haven't flipped systems much over the years and my only next possible upgrade would be the MA. I hope to be able to do that in the future. There would be one other option possibly if I decide to run a second tube system and that would be the Torri Mark III or IV depending if I wanted to keep this tube set up for the higher volume capability and use the Torri for more critical listening instead of the MA.

Hope you had a good weekend!


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« Last Edit: 01/06/14 at 01:13:07 by Digger »  
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #52 - 01/06/14 at 01:37:06
 
One good thing about upgrading power cords is. . . you can use them with other amps or components.

My weekend was okay. I actually have more time off during the week when we pay two gals to relieve me on weekday afternoons. I've bee cooped up most the weekend here looking afer my parents. And a big bad storm is headed our way. . . subzero temps due soon. Gulp.
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #53 - 01/06/14 at 22:26:34
 
I just cannot resist jumping in on the "wire" debate every time I see it arise.  I used to be firmly planted on one side of this argument until it finally donned on me - IT DOESN'T MATTER..!!!  

Toward all the debate about subjective judgment .vs. objective measurement… It Doesn’t Matter !!!!   Human hearing is a “perception”, you cannot argue this fact.  And not only is it a “perception” it’s an individual perception at that.  That means that everybody “hears” differently.  We all process sound uniquely based on numerous attributes of sound that have been identified “so far”, including, but certainly not limited to the shape of our pinnae, inner ear and mostly how our brains "process" the signals.   If you “think” you hear something – then you do – end of argument.  Or if you “think” you do not hear something – then you don’t – end of argument.  Just because man has not yet identified all the attributes of sound that affect our hearing “perception”, does not mean they don’t exist.  Not to mention modern science hasn’t invented a machine to measure them.  Hearing is no different than any of our other senses.  Does everyone perceive all colors the same? No.  What about taste?  Some people like vanilla ice cream, some like chocolate – why?  Nobody really knows.  But the point is, why should any individual care about what flavor of ice cream somebody else likes or dislikes – I mean really – answer me this question.  It Doesn’t Matter.  Does this mean that those that like Vanilla are right and those that like chocolate are wrong?  Of course not.

Now having said that, I also believe that with years of critical listening experience & training, one can become quite astute at identifying “differences” in sound that various wire “can” make, some very subtle, and “to that person” not necessarily everybody.  I too have been thru hundreds of painful hours of volume matched to the tenth of a volt as measured at the speaker binding posts with a digital Fluke multi-meter ABX tests.  And like others have experienced here, many times I have been able to identify by a statistically significant margin which wire I was listening to.  And so have many of my fellow audiofool friends.  Not only that, but each of us almost always identifies and quantifies the same differences.  But even though we almost always agree on “what” the differences are that we hear – we also usually have different “preferences”.  So even though we may each describe the particular sonic personality of a given speaker wire the same, not all of us will prefer the same speaker wire.

It has been my experience, that the farther up the super-sonic, space-modulated, so-called boutique wire ladder you go, the more they actually “effect”  the sound – as in they are passive equalizers in some manner.  And if you demo/try enough of them, you are bound to stumble upon one that will have the synergy with your components/speakers/room that you “prefer”.  I am an I/T guy by profession, 30+ years.  And as such, started out as an ole mainframer, tend to think very logically.  And logically, my mind says, it makes no sense to invest more funds in connecting wires than the components themselves cost – think about that one a minute Spock.  To that end, I seek out wire, which is based on sound, known to man at this time, electrical theory.  i.e. the transmission of frequencies in the human hearing range thru conductors.  I want my “wire” to be neutral, accurate and faithful to the signal passing thru it – not to change it.  I prefer to do the “sonic tweaking” to my “preferred” sound via components I choose and/or the tubes installed.  And make no mistake, tubes can and do sound dramatically different.  And their differences can be measured quite easily with common tools man has already invented.

If anyone would like to hear about a cheap and easy experiment you can do yourself regarding “wire” – that just might astound you, as it did me - PM me directly and I’d be happy to share.  It got me off the wire-of-the-month merry-go-round once and for all.  You need to be a smidge of a DIY'er and only if you're interested in wires that possess little to no sonic signature of their own and are pretty inexpensive.  They won't win you any bragging rights at the monthly audio club meeting, but they will win out sonically in most ABX tests against the voodoo science, snake-oil, fairy-dust exotics.
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #54 - 01/07/14 at 02:50:28
 
Come on Maddog. Please tell!
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #55 - 01/07/14 at 03:05:28
 
   Yes, No snake oils and just a little bit of fairy dust! Ha Ha! I'm all in!

He has my PM!


Smiley
     

                                       


Cool
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 03:09:37 by Digger »  
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stone_of_tone
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Listen Often/Listen
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Posts: 912
Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #56 - 01/07/14 at 03:19:38
 
Good therapy I suppose.  Cable bashing............. .

This reminds me?
I need to order a couple more Isomike recordings to play through my Kimber Select with my: SE84CS, CKC, ZMA coming soon and newly ordered Torii IV.

http://isomike.com/
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 04:44:11 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #57 - 01/07/14 at 15:17:46
 
Isomike, those are the recordings done with the Mike designed by Kimber, right? I think some of the DSD files I linked to a few weeks back were done with the IsoMike.

Any recommended recordings I should try out? I've had a thing for Violin lately.  :)

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stone_of_tone
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Posts: 912
Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #58 - 01/07/14 at 17:41:11
 
Yes, it is Ray Kimber's gig.

He records at Weber State and a fare amount of proceeds he contributes to the schools music program too.

Any of those recordings that are still available are fair game. I think I am going to grab up one of the Violin recordings myself too.  

You have me thinking Violin now too...I am putting Regina Carter in right now....Motor City Moments...and then Itzhak Perlman with Oscar Peterson Side by Side....both very good recordings I must add.  -S

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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 17:42:16 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Lonely Raven
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Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 1561
Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #59 - 01/07/14 at 20:54:33
 

No sound samples though....for $40, you think they'd at least have 30 second samples of the tunes...
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DirtDawg
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Posts: 173
Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #60 - 01/15/14 at 07:08:25
 
Lon, looking at your earlier post struck home to me. I also see things like this on a daily basis, not so much Hi-Fi related as Bluray and hi-def TV stuff related.

I give up and just say that if you can not see the difference between this and that, then save yourself some money and buy the lesser resolving one and brag that you saved a lot of money.

I have only a minor, beginner system. My cabling is mostly homemade. The three sets of upper grade cables I own are only middle of the road, but the difference between average and my "betters" is not quite like night and day but more like fog or no fog.

I am old (in my way of thinking - 58) and have lost a great deal of my ability to hear, due to my earlier lifestyle in music production, but I feel sorry for some of these people who claim to hear perfectly, yet can not. It may be that they could never have heard well in the start. It is sad.

Keep on lettin' it roll off. Take your own way and be glad that you can do all that you can do.

I empathize. I often want to just slap people. I resist. I can still SEE!
If they can not, then I feel sorry for them, too.
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« Last Edit: 01/15/14 at 07:13:33 by DirtDawg »  
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marky
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Posts: 646
Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #61 - 01/15/14 at 11:21:34
 
I bet Aladin would have a nice set up.
So,so,so much gear out there promising this and that.
You`ve got the money they`ve got the gear.
I`m sorting boxes out to get jupitered and have all my
i/c`s xilver shadowed. I know it`ll be a night`n`dayer
even though I couldn`t be happier as is. So why do it ?
Even an inverted snob like me knows  technology is out
there and if you can steer towards good reccomendations
you don`t have to feel disappointed.
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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.Benz LP s , Rega P3,RB300 (silver Litz), Rega wall mount, DV 20XL, Nakamichi LX5, M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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