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Frustrating SET Bashers (Read 4657 times)
Digger
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #30 - 12/31/13 at 15:38:57
 

Lon,

    Thanks for your kind thoughts. It seems that we are very closely seeing the the other part of life and it is tough seeing your loved ones going through it. Our time is also coming. Good luck with your father!
My fathers time is close and he has some tough decisions to make over the next couple of days. He will be 80 tomorrow.


You also Have a Happy New Year!


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Lonely Raven
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #31 - 12/31/13 at 16:15:33
 
Happy New Years guys - you and your families will be in our thoughts.

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stone_of_tone
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #32 - 12/31/13 at 16:26:35
 
Ditto from me to Lon & Digger. I have aging parent whom live with me the first week of May through the first week of October. They spend the Winter in South Texas where my aunt & uncle help.

Everyone have a Happy New Year! Enjoy some music. I am cleaning some Vinyl later after I run some errands. My girl friend and I will be spinning them tonight (home/body NYEve)!   Cheers, Stone of Tone
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 16:27:36 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
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Digger
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #33 - 12/31/13 at 16:38:42
 
LonelyRaven,
 
      Just wanted to post a reply to your posting about understanding what your hearing and everyone being different. Like you I have worked in multiple different industries over the years and have experienced a lot of different things involving people and how differently we all perceive things to be. An awful lot has to do with our systems compatible parts do they all work together for the best or do we have weak links to them effecting what we hear.
      I left my construction job some years back and took a position selling High end wines for a local distributor. I had a book full of great wines Opus 1, Fransican, Silver Oak and many others. The funny thing about the differences in peoples perception of taste is very similar to Music and what we hear and we all hear stuff very differently if taken over enough samples of people. I used to do blind tastings say 10-20 people at a time and I would have them all taste the wines and write down what they were tasting as far as the different fruits and wood flavors as detailed as they possibly could. Keep in mind we have expert tasters with notes stating what they will taste. It was funny that usually about 1/2 of the crowd would agree with the professional tasters notes and the other half were all tasting something totally different and there notes didn't agree with the scientific results of a professional taster. Now I don't think that the logic of science takes this into consideration and every thing is black and white to them. They don't understand humans and human nature and the differences in senses they have not been able to duplicate a model for all and I seriously doubt they ever will at least in my lifetime. In this regard I believe we all have different levels of senses that allows many to experience things in life very differently.
It was a very good experience leaving construction but have since returned back to my god given talent appreciating all of the experiences that I had gained from it.
      Music is like wine in that business we used to call it very subjective and that truly is what music is as far as every ones difference in what they hear. Just thought I'd share this to support your reply.




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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:10:34 by Digger »  
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #34 - 12/31/13 at 17:05:19
 
I could not agree more Digger. Larry Archibald....whom owned Stereophile out of Santa Fe NM...was/is quite the Wine Connoisseur ...and wrote extensively about what you just said 21 & 28 years ago.
..........the Cable Wars too....AND if this Solid State Amp is right this Tube Amp must be Wrong...cover issue....Stereophile (years ago).  

So, the Ski Bums of the world...I addressed a quarter Century ago. I have 28 years experience...some people have one years experience 28 times.  -S
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Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #35 - 12/31/13 at 17:23:36
 
You're right, Lon, I'm out of line to single you out, so I offer my apologies.  Sorry for being a buzz kill.  And Stone-of-Tone, based on your other posts, we're not so different in our perspectives.  I find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what you contribute.      

That all being said, I don't think it's out of line to question folks beliefs.  Lots of folks believe some ridiculous things that have no basis in reality and deserve to be challenged.  Look at our elected officials, for example.  They actually deserve more than hard questions...pitch and feathers seems more appropriate to me most days, if not straight up prison time.  Pack of idiots, all of them, and voted into power by a gullible society that values truthiness over reason and reality.  

If those beliefs are stated as fact and are concerning a quantifiable reductive endeavor, such as music playback on audio systems, then their claims are open to question and criticism, strictly on technical merits.  If they're merely stating personal preference, there is no argument to be made.

And people are rude in cyberspace, including me. Embarrassed

So if an objectivist frustrates you by berating your chosen amps, tell them that you simply like distortion and it will stop them in their tracks.  Kind of like asking a wire believer to do an ABX test leads to a hasty retreat from the challenge.  Then everyone can go back to their music and live happily ever after in their tunnel realities where they are not confronted with uncomfortable questions. Roll Eyes

[Wow, I'm cynical today.  I need my team to win a freakin game, I've got sports-fan affective disorder and it's making me very chippy!]

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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 17:41:57 by ski bum »  
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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #36 - 12/31/13 at 17:31:14
 
I have done ABX tests in the past, and identified wire correctly. I find a lot of these things hurled by objectivists to be protectionist twaddle. So tired of the superior attitude of some of them and I have begun to think they're feeding their prejudices and justifying their unwillingness to spend money.* So I bristle now when I end up in their sights.

*Just my take from years of this same stuff spewed out over and over that does not match my own individual experience. It just seems so silly.

Anyone is welcome to their opinion, and no one has to agree with them. That's how I operate.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 17:43:54 by Lon »  

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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #37 - 12/31/13 at 18:00:32
 
I too have participated in one of those awful ABX tests.  (There has never been a listening session devised more bereft of joy or pleasure as an ABX test.)  

But I had a different experience and came to different conclusions.  It's saved me hundreds, perhaps thousands, over those who buy the cable myth, and frankly there are much better uses for that money.

I'm surprised my view is such a minority at Decware forums.  Part of the appeal of Decware is the value proposition, so I would expect posters to be more supportive about the least expensive, most direct route to the compelling illusion we're all after.  Wasting resources where audible differences are questionable at best and illusory at worst is a detour, a potentially wildly expensive digression, and shows more compulsive behavior about the gear and minutia than a genuine appreciation of the music.  Audiophile nervosa.  Monster's business plan.  It works.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:15:44 by ski bum »  
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Digger
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #38 - 12/31/13 at 18:07:31
 


No more coffee for me today! Unless its Decaf.





Grin




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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:13:04 by Digger »  
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ski bum
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #39 - 12/31/13 at 18:16:42
 
My next cup will be half Irish cream...

Sorry for the contentiousness folks.  I'm taking a break.
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Digger
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #40 - 12/31/13 at 18:26:27
 
SkiBum

     I think for some it is there hobby of choice so they will spend on equipment to make it the best it can be. With that being said we all should be able to understand it. If I didn't have the other hobby interests that I have I may be a whole lot more willing to spend the money on equipment a bit more freely. My summer hobby's tend to suck up a bit more money than my music interests. I will say there will probably be a day when I give them up and will put additional money into my music equipment and it wouldn't bother me a bit. You have to have some type of a release in life and a reason to get out of bed and go to work besides just eating. At least that is my feelings getting thru another day. All depends on your needs and priorities in life and timing is everything.






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Digger
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #41 - 12/31/13 at 18:28:11
 

SkiBum,

    That Irish Creme really does sound good!

Have a Happy New Year!


Grin


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Lon
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #42 - 12/31/13 at 18:56:12
 
ski bum wrote on 12/31/13 at 18:00:32:
I too have participated in one of those awful ABX tests.  (There has never been a listening session devised more bereft of joy or pleasure as an ABX test.)  

But I had a different experience and came to different conclusions.  It's saved me hundreds, perhaps thousands, over those who buy the cable myth, and frankly there are much better uses for that money.

I'm surprised my view is such a minority at Decware forums.  Part of the appeal of Decware is the value proposition, so I would expect posters to be more supportive about the least expensive, most direct route to the compelling illusion we're all after.  Wasting resources where audible differences are questionable at best and illusory at worst is a detour, a potentially wildly expensive digression, and shows more compulsive behavior about the gear and minutia than a genuine appreciation of the music.  Audiophile nervosa.  Monster's business plan.  It works.


Or perhaps you'r hearing is different. Or perhaps your desire for the myths to be untrue is so strong that it has influenced what you perceive.

I've spent far far more on music than equipment, so I'm not a hardware fetishist. I want to get closer to the music. Power, isolation and wire experimentation have shown me that I can as all these are not uniform. One doesn't have to spend megabucks, but wire is different one from the other, and I've not been unconvinced of that.

We can each own our opinions and listening abilities and music collections and enjoy the hobby. Happy new year.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 18:58:13 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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marky
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #43 - 12/31/13 at 19:00:59
 
I wouldn`t normally have posted this...but in the context it seems ok.
You listen to your Decware set up....oh this is just great.
Days later, it`s your norm,
do you just keep with it,
drop a different tube in somewhere,
Or                        (if you already have v/g stuff)
get fidgety
and check out cable manufactures....I would mind trying those,
power cables...ditto
and on and on whenever a great sound gets to be the `norm`

Envious, of course, in small letters......and not envious equally.
I`ve learned to sit still and appreciate and not get drawn too much,
knowing the reasons for wandering.

lol the vibration gear is gnawing me.

As for distortion....what distortion, every time I play the same record it`s a different take = detail + SET magic




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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 19:14:45 by marky »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Frustrating SET Bashers
Reply #44 - 12/31/13 at 19:33:22
 
Quote:
I'm surprised my view is such a minority at Decware forums.  Part of the appeal of Decware is the value proposition, so I would expect posters to be more supportive about the least expensive, most direct route to the compelling illusion we're all after.  Wasting resources where audible differences are questionable at best and illusory at worst is a detour, a potentially wildly expensive digression, and shows more compulsive behavior about the gear and minutia than a genuine appreciation of the music.  Audiophile nervosa.  Monster's business plan.  It works.


But see, that's exactly the point...to these Decware folks, the proof is in the playback.  :D

Again, I'm super skeptical - everything in my system has to have proven itself in A/B testing in my system.

I have a good friend who's been loosely on this journey with me since I got my first Zen Amp 15 years ago. I *know* he hears and enjoys music differently than me (for some reason he loves sitting really, really near field between the speakers - almost like he's trying to replicate headphone sound  :-?). But I'll give him a hand-full of cables, my hand made ones that I'm very proud of, my Decware Silver Reference, Some "high end" Monster Cable, and whatever else I can find. I've already listened to this stuff and have my own notes on my own system, I simply hand him a box of cables and ask him to report back to me. And guess what, he comes back with almost exactly the same notes that I have, and picks the same two cables as his favorites as I did - and not by looks either, because I left my favorite cable a bit "unfinished" vs some of my other hand made cables.

So yes, when the proof is in the playback, and my friend comes back with the same notes as me, that says something.

I also know (or at least have a strong suspicion, judging from our dialog) that if I sent these same cables to Lon, except for one that I know is complete crap, Lon would probably pick a different cable as his favorite and least favorite because his listening preference is different than mine...but I bet his notes would be pretty close to mine because the differences are there.

So, back to the Decware thing...yes, Steve started this out to be a the everyman's affordable amp gear, but when you get to a certain point, you have no choice but to spend money to get really nice...whatever. There are some very talented people out there who really listen, and have figured out what works and what's crap and developed real products that, unfortunately, cost a bit to produce and cost a bit to keep them in business.

I will gladly A/B test lamp cord, vs Decware Styx, vs whatever. Granted the closer you get to "doesn't damage the signal at all" the more the cables will start to sound alike - but there is no way lamp cord is going to sound better than my Styx. I know, because I've already gone though the tests myself. Lampcord vs Monster, vs "high end monster" vs CAT5 vs 10 gauge Romex vs....I don't know, I've lost count. You can't tell me there isn't a difference.

Ok, I'm rambling again, too much coffee for me as well, and I have a 3 hours drive home.

Talk to you all later!
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