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10/25/14 at 08:50:58


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Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan combo (Read 1927 times)
C5smithjack
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Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan combo
12/14/13 at 00:42:22
 
I have found these two to be an incredible match. I am using the Decware Zen TorII Mk3 then a Mk4 with my beloved Martinlogan Spires and I've not seen anyone else using these two. One (Decware) known for their gorgeous low watt sound and Martinlogan was always known as being watt needy and I'd think this is why this is not a usual/popular match but they really make an incredible duo. The transparency combination is almost harrowing. The most popular match for ML is the high powered McIntosh amps. My Spires are the newer CLX Generation that need only 20 watt mins and are a reasonable 91 efficient. They have a built in, robust, self driven 200 watt class D amp to drive their 10" subs so with the good to go built in by-amp set up the TorII only has to drive the electrostatic panel and man what a combo these two are... What brought these two to the next level was a combo of the Mk4 upgrade and then addition of an amazing quad of the EL34's. I picked up an expensive but amazing quad of NOS Mullard XF2 Welded plate, double getter/halo and OMG talk about a night and day change. The entire amp/speaker combo changed x 1000 and I was utterly blown away. Unfortunately, UPS trashed my amp when shipping it back to me from service from Decware. Decware's amazing service is helping get it squared away. Devon is an awesome person and so pleasant to talk to and deal with. People like Devon, Steve and Sara are not the norm out there. We are very lucky to have such a great company to partner with that have such great products and folks. Heck, I have a bunch of Decware kit: a TorII Mk4, a CSP2+, a ZSTAGE, and 3 sets of Silver Reference IC's and I'm fixing to get a pair of Silver Reference model ZSTYX cables. I can't wait to get the ML/Decware combo back up and running again. Is anyone else out there using ML's with their Decware kit? Cheers...
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marky
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan com
Reply #1 - 12/14/13 at 02:04:42
 
C5sj, I run a pair of Rachaels, CSP2+, ZP3,ZMC, silver Ref I/C`s , and Decware power chords straight into one pr inputs of ML Aeon `i`s. Isolda sp cbls.Thats a rating of 12 watts into the 89 db aeons. There is as you know an extra tweeter, the `i`, for greater dispersion, but I just dont use it for my usage...nearfield. No prob driving them which may surprise M/L fans. We had the electricians round a month ago, they were all over the house changing fittings. After an hour one of the lads came into the front room and aked me what all was upstairs. He`d never seen anything like it.
I tried explaining but SE, phono, su, bridged, didn`t sink in...and why would it. I said I`d fire the tubes up and give him, and his mate a demo. So they`re in another room somewhere and I cranked it up way past my level. It was really loud. First some BB.King, then a track of L. Feat. Then I thought they`ll like some Chemical Brothers. Blimey it was so loud, but so solid. The lad came in and said it was amazing, then called his mate in. I told him to sit where I sit and he couldn`t believe where the sound was coming from. He was pointing into the distance behind a speaker. The boss was downstairs and he commented on the bass.
I`ve had them for 2 years now and I guess once you use them regularly you expect to hear a faithful picture everytime. Their mids and highs I find are just accurate. They are a good `window`. I want to improve my front end in the future but these stats are singing as is.
I`ve got 4 Tessla mill EL 34`s powering the amps. The Mullards I bet are sweet, . Do you get that piercing sometimes when it`s on the album, sounds like the guitars getting straight into your head.
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« Last Edit: 12/14/13 at 02:05:55 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.Benz LP s , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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C5smithjack
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan com
Reply #2 - 12/14/13 at 02:45:18
 
I know exactly what you mean. Most of my non-phile fiends out there still think Bose is as good as it gets. When you have a chance to demo your system to someone that usually only listens to audio in their car or iPod they really get blown away by a properly tube driven set of electrostatics. That's a great story, thanks. I had a set of Tesla's. The good ones before JJ bought them. They were my fav tubes before the Mullys. I tried a bunch too and really like the Tesla's. I liked them much better than the nice older Winged C's. Ya the stats at times really can be piercing but in a good, a startling real way. I'm running a super sweet set of Manley 35 watt mono blocks right now while I am waiting to get my damaged TorII issue solved and I really do have a soft spot for the Manley "house" sound with the EL84 but the Decware EL34 has more meat on the bone and the stats just seem to adore the EL34's. Can't wait to get my Decware/ML match up and running again.
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« Last Edit: 12/14/13 at 02:46:26 by C5smithjack »  
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marky
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan com
Reply #3 - 12/14/13 at 16:36:06
 
Yes they`re the x2 `[] `s, I think modelled on an xf series. I check out the  34`s regularly on e-bay and the Mullards  always look value for money even though I imagine more than know. Thanks for the walkthrough. I should have said hi and welcome. I`m sure Steve will turnaround your Torii sooner rather than later. The torii `club`   Smiley here can get possessed. All good stuff.
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« Last Edit: 12/18/13 at 22:57:40 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.Benz LP s , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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marky
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan com
Reply #4 - 12/15/13 at 19:53:06
 
As a footnote C5 something is afoot in the land of my Decware amps.
I`ve read here many times of the `bloom`and the ML`S are on to it.
I mentioned earlier the leading edge of a cutting guitar being heard in two places at once....the ear and the placement, now I`m hearing the same with other instruments. You audiophile vets if that isn`t to impolite will have a terminology for this. er, transients, micro/macro, leading edge, fast, whatever it is it adds to the realism, gives, er, flesh on the bone ?
The aeons were bought as repanalled, couple that to the myriad of tubes, i/c`s, cables, and amps from new and the sound is beginning to reveal  new details. Surprises.
Basically I bought the ML`s because I like guitar and floaty sax. I`ve read the attributes of stats and they are not disappointing in any way.
Now, I`m understanding more.
You`ll be in for a lot of fun with your torii.   Cool

ps. I should mention no-one was injured in my demo  :)
Both sparky`s had hifi`s and the one most interested does stuff with mixing dance music. No-one was injured except before they left I heard a `pop` `tinkle`. It wasn`t until I thought `thats odd`. The lightshde from my listening room was gone, and now I had odd shades in the hallway/landing. Cheeky sods. I`m in the game myself and the worst thing you can hear back in the yard is, " weve had a phone call" I let it slide.
So, new lightshades !
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« Last Edit: 12/15/13 at 21:10:14 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.Benz LP s , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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maddog07
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan combo
Reply #5 - 12/17/13 at 18:33:48
 
The very first speakers I heard my Torii MK.III on was my pair of ML Vista's - yes the Decware magic was easily discerned there... but if you really want to have your mind blown… hook the Torii to a pair of speakers with single, full-range, high-efficiency drivers, and no crossover – party over – quest for the audiophile holy grail complete, off the merry-go-round…. Done – sit down and let the music flow over you.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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marky
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan com
Reply #6 - 12/20/13 at 12:32:28
 
I can well believe that md. We tend to nail our colours to the particular audio mast we use and enjoy. We`re all right and none of us wrong untill we `have a change` and then as you have, can make a comparison. Speakers there are many types. I still dont know what `point source` and `transmission line` refers to.....you connect the speakers and away you go is it for me. I have had a small pair of full rangers before, they were hand made, in a box 18 x 12" x 9"deep, just bitumen damping with around a 9" cone and the whizzer. I quite liked them. The were good at tone/timre for some reason, maybe the 1/2" thick mahogany enclosures. Listening to J L Hookers accoustic guitar made me curse guitar collectors who keep such instruments away from the market and general enjoyment. (oh the pains of a budding l/h guitarist   Smiley )
They were `shabby chic` I guess and I ended up blowing one, found a replacement but with no manufacturers name not a perfect match so they were never as good.
The ML`s are easily my best speakers to date.
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« Last Edit: 12/20/13 at 13:48:26 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.Benz LP s , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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JAG
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan combo
Reply #7 - 12/20/13 at 14:09:41
 
My Torii Mk III / ML Vantage combo started out great almost from day 1.  However, about 400 - 500 hours into the "relationship" a bass bloom started and continued to get worse.  After consulting with Steve I tried the suggested tube changes without success and ended up sending the Mk III back for a check-up.  We got an A-OK report back from Dr. Steve but had the same issue after getting the Mk III back on-line.  Some more tube rolling failed to get me back to where I started.  I did find a reference in the ML manual to "non-existent bass", which certainly wasn't my problem, and they suggested reversing the leads on just one of the speakers.  At this point I had nothing to lose so I gave it a try and did find a noticeable difference, but still not acceptable.  Since the ML's do just fine with a Musical Fidelity A-5 and even my Taboo Mk III I have to assume my Torii/ML match was not made in heaven.  I have a pair of HR-1's on order.
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maddog07
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan combo
Reply #8 - 12/20/13 at 16:34:03
 
interesting JAG... the Vantage is pretty similar to a Vista with one HUGE difference.. the 8" woofer in the Vantage is driven by its own internal amplifier... it would seem very unlikely that any amp that you use to drive the stat panel could cause bloom in the Vantage bass response, but hey if you're hearing it, anything's possible.  Does turning down the "35 hz" control on your Vantage's have any effect?  ML notes that this control has effect on frequencies clear up in the 50hz range which would certainly be in that "bloom" range.  You can also stuff the port, which I have done on other speakers I've owned over the years to fine tune the in-room bass balance.
My Vista's have 10" aluminum cone woofers, but they have no onboard internal amp driving them like the Vantage does.  In my case the Torii is driving the 10" woofer directly.  I do not have any bass "bloom" issues.  Being that the Torii and most tube amps more-or-less act as current-sources, and deliver more power into higher impedances, which normally occur in the lower frequency range of most woofers as they approach their resonant frequency, I do actually have "more bass" from the Vistas when driven by the Torii, than they have when driven by hundreds of watts from any SS amp I have ever tried, but it is not excessively bloomy, nor anything "wrong" with the sound - quite the contrary actually.  The Vista's just can't get as loud with the Torii, but the SQ is pretty high - but not has high as with the high-efficiency, single full-range driver speakers w/no xover..... this combo steps into another league of "realness"....
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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DBC
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Re: Anyone using creamy Decware & Martin Logan combo
Reply #9 - 12/20/13 at 17:32:42
 
Jag,

I run twin subs with my Klipsch RF-7's and Super Zen. Looking at your Martin Logan's you are in effect running twin powered subs also.

In my case my Oppo disk player and Super Zen are plugged into a Tripp Lite isolation transformer which is in turn connected to a wall socket. Additionally each of my subs are connected to separate wall sockets but all wall sockets are on a common circuit.

In an ideal world the ground of all three wall sockets in my case will drain any induced voltage or voltage leakage to individual component chassis harmlessly to the common ground circuit they are all connected to via the wall sockets. In a not so ideal world one of the grounds may provide a more direct path to ground (less resistance).

In a case where all grounds are not equal you may find as I did that current will flow from one component chassis over the interconnects or speaker cables to find the path to ground of least resistance through another component. When this happens you can get a 60hz hum introduced into the sub signal (ground loop). The induced hum may or may not be audible but it raises the noise floor in the 60hz region.

In my case low bass was a bit muddy / boomy. It actually took about a year before I realized the cause was a ground loop. In the end I used Radio Shack 36" test leads with alligator clips on each end to connect the chassis of each sub plate amp to the chassis of the Tripp Lite isolation transformer. Walla !! the slight sub hum was gone and more importantly the muddy / boomy bass.

Now I realize you don't have the bloated bass problem with your SS amp but the internal ground configuration of the Decware amp may be different. In some of their literature Decware refers to a floating ground on some of their amps.

I could spend pages here discussing ground loops (not a simple subject). Rather I suggest you might try this simple test to rule out a ground loop as your problem:

I assume you might be using some type of isolation device between your source component / amp and wall socket? I also assume that your subs are connected directly to the 110 wall socket because of their higher power demand? Attach the alligator clip of a test lead to each plate amp chassis of each speaker. Attach the other alligator clip from each test lead to the metal chassis of your source isolation device.

This will basically tie all the system component grounds together. So lets say the earth ground that your left speaker is connected to offers the path of least resistance to ground. The jumpers you install will provide all system components with an alternate path to that ground rather than through your interconnects and or speaker cables.

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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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