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Good "3D" recordings? (Read 3409 times)
Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #50 - 12/31/13 at 13:56:20
 
Yeah your room was pretty flat.  

I am running out of room now given the relatively small size of my room.  But even those 2" absorbers angled in the front corners help.  I do think I can build some corners traps like you have shown in the pics but about half to 1/4 the height and hang them.  I have a closet on one side and a window on the other so nothing permanent.

Probably should have moved this thread to room treatment. I did get some good recording suggestions though.  Also given the relatively low cost versus big returns I have now joined the room treatment evangelists and wish to spread the word.  For $160 and some elbow grease I have made a bigger impact only sound than anything else I've done except buy a Decware amp.  Thanks for showing me the light, brother Raven.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #51 - 12/31/13 at 15:36:35
 

Yeah, that's my fault, I totally steered this thread to room treatment.

I know I've said it before, but i can't trust any reviewers who don't have *some* room treatment. There is only so much moving about of speakers you can do to mitigate room issues.

If I could find a college course in acoustics in my area, I would absolutely take it. I have a good grasp of the concepts, but I'm weak on the math and measurements...and IMHO, that's what separates the boys from the men.


I think I'm going to shortcut and try a half-sphere diffuser for between my speakers till I can build a proper QRD.

My thoughts/disign - 1/8" bent into a wood frame, Another 1/8" behind it to stiffen it up, then put some acoustic blanket inside the curve to help deaden resonations. I've got some 4' X 4' panels that I've had for years that are destined for 1D QRD diffusers I can use - I'm hoping that will give me enough width to make a difference.
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #52 - 01/02/14 at 19:21:59
 
I built a prototype of the bent wood diffuser. †Pretty easy.






I liked it enough to build a second. †I did not like it in the front of the room. †While curved, I thought it still bounced back to much to the listening position. †I now have them on the sides and there is a noticeable positive effect. †Especialy on live music. †I like the idea of having these with a backing of insulation and holes cut in the front like the combination diffuser you posted above.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #53 - 01/02/14 at 20:59:41
 

Great! Now I need to get off my butt and make some as well!


Do you have a table saw? The idea I had for mine, was to build a frame as you did, but a little wider. Then use my table saw to rip a slot along the length of the face, then bend the hard-board till it pops into the two slots (left and right) on the fame.

I hope that makes sense. Less parts, and an even curve assuming your frame is straight.
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will
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #54 - 01/02/14 at 21:03:03
 
Palomino,

That looks like masonite, and will continue to bend and warp at your connections to the hinges if you have humidity. We used it for arch forms for Kilns and without really complete edge connection (perhaps like the one LR showed where the edge is tucked in and secured to a straight, flat surface) it will move with time...may work just to pull it in between the connections you now have...a couple more hinges on a side.

What effects did you hear. Ethan Winer says those diffuser types are more for bigger rooms with a good distance from your seat....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nzmBhkR4JQ

But I am interested in your experience.
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will
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #55 - 01/02/14 at 21:04:40
 
Got in ahead of me LR...not surprising. I think your idea would work well!
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #56 - 01/02/14 at 21:21:49
 
I don't know what this stuff is, but I think they use it for floor underlayment.  Its slick on one side and more porous on the other.

Its a prototype anyway.  If I decide to keep them, I would replace this material with some good plywood (if it will bend enough).

I do like your design idea Raven.  If I had to do this over again, I would probably keep my design (no table saw) but I would have a separate piece of wood running down each side to prevent what Will is talking about.  It's a pressed wood of some sort and very prone to absorbing moisture.

In terms of big versus small rooms, I would believe that this is better as a big room diffuser, but I can say you can shape your room sound with these even in a small room.  The "tuning" if you want to call it that is done by now much you angle them in to the room.  I haven't settled on a location yet, but I got the best front to back imaging on live recordings last night that I have had to date.  This was angling them in somewhat just past the first reflection point absorbers on either side of the room.  I think they kicked more of the sound waves back to the absorbers on each side and to the front of the room.

I have less than $35 in them so its a cheap experiment.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #57 - 01/02/14 at 21:24:29
 

This has me pumped. If I can unbury my table saw, I think I'm going to build up a frame and make a couple of these myself. I've got a deadspot on the right side where I don't have a wall (L shaped room), and maybe using these as a false wall/reflection point will help fill that in till I make something more substantial.



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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #58 - 01/02/14 at 21:35:54
 
Given your size room and that hole you have to fill, I think this would be worth a roll of the dice.  My only concern is that they are a hard surface and even though they diffuse, they also will liven up your room a little.

If you have the ceiling height, you could make them stackable.   Mine are 48" tall by 28" wide after bending.  

I have some stuff left over and was thinking about putting a couple of small ones on the back wall.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #59 - 01/02/14 at 22:01:00
 

I have at least 4 panels cut to 4' X 4' - I'll see if a can make a couple and see how they work.

Most diffusion needs some space to work. It could just be that you need more space for these to work well. But then again, since they are smooth, and not "wells" to bounce the sound in before releasing, there is no delay in the reflection time to help your ears differentiate source from reflection; and the smoothness will only diffuse high frequencies.

As you said, it's a cheap sample, but still a far cry from proper QRD.
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #60 - 01/02/14 at 22:02:54
 
Most of what I make is a far cry from anything:)
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #61 - 01/06/14 at 16:42:09
 
Back to the music.  So far the best recordings I have found (one live, one studio) for emphasizing this front to back 3D effect are:

1. Antonio Forcione Quartet In Concert
2. Cassandra Wilson, New Moon Daughter

I still need to check out a few, but some of the music suggested in this thread have huge soundstages and I really like the music in general, but I didn't think they exhibited the effect as well as the two listed above.  Of course this is on my system in my room.

I also found a Chesky sampler which has one track that has a group of people marching up to the mic and then circling it a few times while they blow whistles and make other noise to be interesting for testing out placement of absorbers and such in the room.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #62 - 01/06/14 at 17:32:38
 
New Moon Daughter = ditto

I have all the usual suspects with the great Samplers:

The Ultimate Demonstration Disc-Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening

Chesky Records 10th Anniversary Edition 2 Disc jazz & world music celebration

(3) Three Prof Johnson Sampler Discs from Reference Recordings

Numerous, very well recorded Jazz............ .

Now, back to reality of †Recording's in general....and in comes Decware.....and where even the best Solid State ultimately does suck with grain and more grain (even with great recordings too IMHO).

For example: even on a very very good Solid State System, RUSH - Negative Feedback, can not be fleshed out to be musical. †With Alchemy and I mean Alchemy firmly....I have put together Systems with Decware, where you can actually enjoy this 29 minute Disc of covers they played and loved as a bar band coming up... . †That is saying something for a compressed Rock record! Of course, this is just one example...I wanted to use this ROCK...example for obvious reasons. †I have great results with my Contemporary Jazz Discs too....which is my favorite Genre.

Anyway, I digress, however, I love the great recordings in my collection...but ultimately you need to put together a System to play all of it with great Harmonics, decay, imaging with a soundstage.

I have a ZMA coming in a couple weeks & this August I'll order a Torii IV to complete my Decware Stable (with SE84CS & Super Zen CKC). As we know it is about the music here....not about well spec'd odd order sand Amps with oscilloscopes! †

-Stone
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« Last Edit: 01/06/14 at 17:51:12 by stone_of_tone »  

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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #63 - 01/06/14 at 18:16:14
 
+1 on putting together a system that plays it all well.  That is my ultimate goal.

I figured that I'd start with those recordings that obviously have the effect I am looking for.  A reference point of sorts.  If I can't achieve it with the good recordings, the rest will never measure up.

I am less than one year with Decware.  From day one, I was getting something I hadn't heard in SS.  I tried Class D, T-amps, etc. that promised tube like sound.  One visit to Decware and I knew these amps offered something I hadn't heard yet and "it" was what I was after.
"
So I started out extremely happy with what I purchased and continue to get great enjoyment out of my system.  After hearing what room treatment can do, I thought it was worth a shot at making something great even better.  Two of the three treatments I have tried have had significant impact.

I am at the point now that I may not do much more to the room.  Maybe some bass traps but I have been able to do some quick and dirty fixes with the equalizer in Audirvana.

Now I am open to building a music library of good recordings.  Any suggestions are welcomed.  I monitor the "What's spinning" thread and check those recordings out frequently.

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Syd
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #64 - 01/06/14 at 20:00:27
 
This is a great thread palomino. Putting  sound absorber/diffuser/b traps into a room really pays dividends. Empty room..clap hands = tubey echo.
Treat the room..clap hands = no echo. Thats just the start though. I`ve put stuff up (will get pics soon) and do I know what I`m doing ? It`s kind of symmetrical so I`m pondering it still 12 months on. Classic horseshoe soundstage no prob. Front to back between the speakers, well, could be better. I`d like the singer standing more forward etc. The drums are always back, kind of reference + he has as many channels as the engineer gives him. I too would like more back to front. It too has been a goal for a long time. It` unlockable but just listening to the music is fine for now. I did think that I`d have to spend mega on a cart but this thread is slowly sinking in.
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #65 - 01/07/14 at 17:33:41
 
Yeah, I think now I put room treatments first before additional upgrades on most anything.

For example, I thought at 89db my speakers were just not loud enough.  I started looking around, Decware, Omegas, etc.  With even the modest amount of treatment that I have done, I have turned the volume way down and am no longer looking at speakers.

More powerful amp?  Don't need it right now.  Yeah, there are days, but not very often.

New mega expensive DAC?  That was also on the list.  Now I think I'm OK for a while.  In fact, I am experimenting with a less expensive DAC now that I think is fantastic (still don't believe what I am hearing).

So like I said, I am trying move to listening to and buying good music.  I'm also rediscovering lots of music that I always liked the "tune" but now I'm enjoying the "music" because I can hear it better.
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #66 - 01/13/14 at 15:02:42
 
I did an interesting little experiment over the weekend.  I downloaded a cheap, but well reviewed SPL meter ap for my iPhone and Ethan Winerís test tone tracks (http://realtraps.com/test-cd.htm).  Basically these tones cover the bass frequencies from 20hz to 300hz.   I used these tones because my own ears told me that I had an issue with certain bass frequencies and I donít have any real bass traps in my room.

I used the included pink noise to set the volume to 70db and then played the test tracks and recorded the levels.  While this SPL meter on my phone is hardly a precision instrument, it did show me my peaks and valleys.

To adjust, I moved my absorbers, diffusers around and watched the SPL digital display while playing the offending frequencies.  I was not able to change the offending frequencies by more than 1 db.  Then I used the equalizer within Audirvana to try to tweak the three problem areas.  

I was not able to do much with the lower frequency problem areas, but I was able to take care of one at about 200hz.  I just played the tone and adjusted the slider down until I got closer to 70db.  I went from 79db down to about 74db.

Then I sat down and listened.  The changes were easily noticeable.  Imaging improved a little, but the detail I could hear now was significantly better and the recordings (just about all of them) sounded more real.  An example is being better able to hear vibrato in the end of a verse where the singerís voice tails off.  Not only that, but the tail of that passage is longer than I could previously hear.  I suspect that this peak I had was actually hiding some of the detail present at or around that frequency.

So now I am able to say without hesitation that this was my best bang for the buck audio tweak.  I think the SPL ap was $1.99.  I did probably spend 2-3 hours doing this exercise.

Hereís the catch.  I changed speakers and it was all out the window.  I changed output tubes and to a lesser degree, there was a change as well.  So I will have to re-tune for speakers.  I am not sure I will re-tune for tubes.  Luckily, Audirvana has settings you can save as separate files.
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Lon
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #67 - 01/21/14 at 21:04:32
 
This newly released cd is a great Redbook demo disc for Zen systems. The original recording is very good, the mastering on this release is really really good. The performances are excellent, they have an exotic feel to them but also are very much in the 'sixties jazz tradition, and very accessible and interesting to rock listeners. The percussion is just stunningly presented and there's real space and texture to the sound.



http://www.dustygroove.com/item/663553
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #68 - 01/21/14 at 21:25:47
 
Nice, thanks.

Raven was by yesterday and made a few suggestions for improvements, but I am getting good imaging/sound from my room now.

Of course, when he hooked up the ZMA, he spoiled me, but I am still on a good recordings quest and less focused on equipment.
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #69 - 01/29/14 at 22:20:50
 
Here is where I am right now in terms of my room. †I'm getting good 3D from lots of recordings. †It's been an amazing transformation, especially considering how little I spent. †

Very educational too. †Just last night I measured the SPL just two feet in front and behind my listening position and the variance in one of my "offending" frequencies was considerable. †Much louder at the listening position. †

I am now playing with chair / speaker location to get out of that mode.

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