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Good "3D" recordings? (Read 6454 times)
Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #45 - 12/30/13 at 23:01:21
 

Palomino,

I've got a Zoom H2 recorder you can borrow - it's an older, decent digital recorder often used for small session recordings and concert bootlegs. Smiley  I just need to dig it out of storage.

The only trick is you'd have to figure out how to sync up the H2 audio to your video from your camera if you wanted a proper 21st century multi-media event.  :)

So, I've been thinking about your saying that you find yourself using less volume with the sound absorbers - this happens a lot with home theater guys with ringing rooms. They can't hear the dialog on the center channel - it sounds a bit jumbled and buried - so we turn it up...it sounds a little better...maybe, but still jumbled, so lets turn it up, starting to sound good...but loud...still jumbled, so lets turn it up (ad nauseam) - till they piss off the wife or start feeling the effects of audio fatigue and dial it down a bit and deal with the muddled dialog.

As soon as you clean up some of that ringing, you're not fighting the room for detail and frequency balance; you'll find a more natural listening level that suits the music, the gear, and your hearing tolerance!

Since placing my sound diffusers on the ceiling and absorbers on the side walls, I find more intelligibility in the dialog for HT, and the 2 watt zen amp seems *louder* than it used to...probably because I'm hearing more detail and less smearing.

I really need to get back into the shop and get back to building diffusers...this thread is making me practically salivate at dialing in my room better!


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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #46 - 12/31/13 at 01:23:40
 
I have started to look for mics and think I've found one that doesn't require external phantom power and works with REW.

I had a friend over last night for drinks and then got him to come into the basement to listen to my system.  He's and engineer and helped me procure some outlets and such that were hard to find but he could get them from his supplier.

Anyway, he was clearly impressed with the sound and told me so.  Minor victory for me.

From what I hear, I think the highs are pretty tamed and the focus of the soundstage is pretty good.  Still not as front to back as I want, but pretty good.  Some music is better than others.

I was at that Menards today near your house to buy some lumber to prototype some of those bent wood diffusers.  I got the framing lumber, but could not get 1/8" ply.  I think that is what you need to make enough of a bend.  I have some other 1/8 material (not sure what you call it) and will give that a try.

I still need something to keep the bass in line (upright bass booms big time) and am considering my options for corner bass traps.  I'll send you the link to some I am looking at on-line for $60.  Seem a bit too good to be true.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 01:24:51 by Palomino »  

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will
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #47 - 12/31/13 at 02:10:26
 
Quote:
I still need something to keep the bass in line (upright bass booms big time)


If it happens like mine, losing the low bass boom will seriously contribute to resolving everything else.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #48 - 12/31/13 at 06:32:19
 
I've yet to see anything under a few hundred that would put a dent in *real* bass.

It takes a lot of material, or clever use of specific materials to tame bass. Little pieces of foam the corners are BS. It takes lots of corner traps, and/or helmholtz resonators to get that low bass cleaned up like you heard at my place.












I've got those covered in cloth, and stacked 8' tall, plus I have two of the old Decware designed CWALL, which I'm really having trouble measuring to figure out what they are doing.




Plus have about 30# of insulation behind my 10' projection screen, so it acts as an absorber as well. And I still think I could use some more bass treatment to deal with a 27Hz bump I have.





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« Last Edit: 12/31/13 at 06:35:53 by Lonely Raven »  
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #49 - 12/31/13 at 06:36:51
 


Cripes I have a lot of sound treatment! I'm so used to it, that I forget how much I have going on!
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #50 - 12/31/13 at 13:56:20
 
Yeah your room was pretty flat.  

I am running out of room now given the relatively small size of my room.  But even those 2" absorbers angled in the front corners help.  I do think I can build some corners traps like you have shown in the pics but about half to 1/4 the height and hang them.  I have a closet on one side and a window on the other so nothing permanent.

Probably should have moved this thread to room treatment. I did get some good recording suggestions though.  Also given the relatively low cost versus big returns I have now joined the room treatment evangelists and wish to spread the word.  For $160 and some elbow grease I have made a bigger impact only sound than anything else I've done except buy a Decware amp.  Thanks for showing me the light, brother Raven.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #51 - 12/31/13 at 15:36:35
 

Yeah, that's my fault, I totally steered this thread to room treatment.

I know I've said it before, but i can't trust any reviewers who don't have *some* room treatment. There is only so much moving about of speakers you can do to mitigate room issues.

If I could find a college course in acoustics in my area, I would absolutely take it. I have a good grasp of the concepts, but I'm weak on the math and measurements...and IMHO, that's what separates the boys from the men.


I think I'm going to shortcut and try a half-sphere diffuser for between my speakers till I can build a proper QRD.

My thoughts/disign - 1/8" bent into a wood frame, Another 1/8" behind it to stiffen it up, then put some acoustic blanket inside the curve to help deaden resonations. I've got some 4' X 4' panels that I've had for years that are destined for 1D QRD diffusers I can use - I'm hoping that will give me enough width to make a difference.
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #52 - 01/02/14 at 19:21:59
 
I built a prototype of the bent wood diffuser.  Pretty easy.






I liked it enough to build a second.  I did not like it in the front of the room.  While curved, I thought it still bounced back to much to the listening position.  I now have them on the sides and there is a noticeable positive effect.  Especialy on live music.  I like the idea of having these with a backing of insulation and holes cut in the front like the combination diffuser you posted above.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #53 - 01/02/14 at 20:59:41
 

Great! Now I need to get off my butt and make some as well!


Do you have a table saw? The idea I had for mine, was to build a frame as you did, but a little wider. Then use my table saw to rip a slot along the length of the face, then bend the hard-board till it pops into the two slots (left and right) on the fame.

I hope that makes sense. Less parts, and an even curve assuming your frame is straight.
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will
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #54 - 01/02/14 at 21:03:03
 
Palomino,

That looks like masonite, and will continue to bend and warp at your connections to the hinges if you have humidity. We used it for arch forms for Kilns and without really complete edge connection (perhaps like the one LR showed where the edge is tucked in and secured to a straight, flat surface) it will move with time...may work just to pull it in between the connections you now have...a couple more hinges on a side.

What effects did you hear. Ethan Winer says those diffuser types are more for bigger rooms with a good distance from your seat....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nzmBhkR4JQ

But I am interested in your experience.
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will
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #55 - 01/02/14 at 21:04:40
 
Got in ahead of me LR...not surprising. I think your idea would work well!
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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #56 - 01/02/14 at 21:21:49
 
I don't know what this stuff is, but I think they use it for floor underlayment.  Its slick on one side and more porous on the other.

Its a prototype anyway.  If I decide to keep them, I would replace this material with some good plywood (if it will bend enough).

I do like your design idea Raven.  If I had to do this over again, I would probably keep my design (no table saw) but I would have a separate piece of wood running down each side to prevent what Will is talking about.  It's a pressed wood of some sort and very prone to absorbing moisture.

In terms of big versus small rooms, I would believe that this is better as a big room diffuser, but I can say you can shape your room sound with these even in a small room.  The "tuning" if you want to call it that is done by now much you angle them in to the room.  I haven't settled on a location yet, but I got the best front to back imaging on live recordings last night that I have had to date.  This was angling them in somewhat just past the first reflection point absorbers on either side of the room.  I think they kicked more of the sound waves back to the absorbers on each side and to the front of the room.

I have less than $35 in them so its a cheap experiment.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #57 - 01/02/14 at 21:24:29
 

This has me pumped. If I can unbury my table saw, I think I'm going to build up a frame and make a couple of these myself. I've got a deadspot on the right side where I don't have a wall (L shaped room), and maybe using these as a false wall/reflection point will help fill that in till I make something more substantial.



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Palomino
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #58 - 01/02/14 at 21:35:54
 
Given your size room and that hole you have to fill, I think this would be worth a roll of the dice.  My only concern is that they are a hard surface and even though they diffuse, they also will liven up your room a little.

If you have the ceiling height, you could make them stackable.   Mine are 48" tall by 28" wide after bending.  

I have some stuff left over and was thinking about putting a couple of small ones on the back wall.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #59 - 01/02/14 at 22:01:00
 

I have at least 4 panels cut to 4' X 4' - I'll see if a can make a couple and see how they work.

Most diffusion needs some space to work. It could just be that you need more space for these to work well. But then again, since they are smooth, and not "wells" to bounce the sound in before releasing, there is no delay in the reflection time to help your ears differentiate source from reflection; and the smoothness will only diffuse high frequencies.

As you said, it's a cheap sample, but still a far cry from proper QRD.
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