Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
04/18/14 at 15:16:27


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print
Good "3D" recordings? (Read 2948 times)
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 879
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #15 - 12/11/13 at 20:35:50
 
Quote:
Hey Raven,

You know what I have done with absorbers.

If I still get the "orb bunching" with this fine recording, to your knowledge, would diffusers help the situation?



It's all about time smearing of the original recording. The more you can reduce that smearing, the sharper your imaging will become.

Steve's amps already put you a huge leap ahead of the crowd when it comes to reducing that smearing. Then you have your crossoverless speakers, huge plus. With the absorbers you've added, your already hearing a big improvement due to further reduction of that time smearing.

Diffusers (and absorbers) aren't a silver bullet. It really takes a combination of things (your gear is one of them, and I think you're fine hardware wise) to get the room dialed in so your 3D imaging can happen. I've already mentioned getting your room balanced left to right, and you've already seen what absorbers can do. The next step is to get a program like REW, and a good Omnidirectional Microphone, and start taking measurements! Balance the frequencies, tame and dial in your reflections, and your imaging will come into sharper focus.

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/11/13 at 20:36:10 by Lonely Raven »  
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1084
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #16 - 12/12/13 at 01:17:45
 
Palamino and all.

My room/system does really well width, height, and depth, with great spacial accuracy and individual player saturation. Though I prefer the sound with HR-1s, soundstage did not change notably going from MG944s to HR-1s in this room. I don't have any official diffusers, but do have round log beams with angled rough wood boards for a ceiling, irregular adobe walls, and open segues to other spaces. I also use Synergistic Research Art Basik bowls (they are placed at first reflection points on the sides, and  front and back) and a Kemp Schumann resonator. Both contribute to a more defined sound and soundstage in this room.

I have used these for years, so thought I should test them. The difference is subtle in ways, but each is quite clear in contributing its own part. The combination is a very real aspect of a great soundstage. As LR said, the Decware is a big first step, but in this room, these tools really help. I can't say how much they do compared with official diffusers since I have none. I also built a small low bass, and a small mid bass trap, and more absorbers strategically placed in areas where sound got bunched up.

One thing I have really noticed in this difficult room is that when my bass/mid-bass is too dominant in the frequency balance, masking the upper mids and highs, at some point it weakens the sound stage. Right now I have a nice warm tube set that is really good at sound stage though, so it depends on tubes here. I do generally use less pushy, less dense OB3s in my Torii rather than OA3s giving a sound that is still warm, but more articulate. Also, this is where the Schumann resonator contributes in this room...it articulates without messing with the frequency balance in any negative way (positive actually, better micro detail rounding out the timbre).... I think anything that contributes to good power treatment and vibration control really helps by cleaning up/articulating what is there.

My other room also has a great sound stage with a similar ceiling to this, and with segues to other spaces, but with flat sheetrock and masonry walls. It does have a lot more speaker placement flexibility though and it has a great soundstage with no treatment at all, not much of a power filter, and no vibration control. I have not put much energy into that system yet, but the room is so easy, and I don't use it as much, so it is not pressing.

I also find the recording effects the quality of soundstage location and saturation, or, likewise, with well saturated spacial information, the plausibility of the player placement is not always great based on engineer choices.

The recordings I mentioned above do width and depth well in my rooms. Don't know if you can play digital files, but if you can get individual songs without compression, "Inutil Paisagem" is the test tune I use on Ana Caram "bluebossa." Not being as saturated and simple a recording as the Schepp one, it is a good test for bass and drum differentiation in width and depth. They are well back through the wall in this room and spatially well placed, the drums further back and right, the bass forward of them and left.

One with big, complex, and layered music is Vision: The Music of Hildegard von Bingen. This is a new style Hildigard thing with additions of bass, big drums, bells, and with the occasional obvious electronic hyped instruments I uncheck in my play lists, but that is me. There is clear attention to sound stage in this production. I use the tune "Praise of the Virgin" as a test tune. Great for analyzing width and depth, bass, soft or hard mids, highs...the lot.

Also Ayub Ogata the tune "Kothbiro." Nice saturation width and depth, and a good test for depth. With subtler depth differentiation on some of the up front voices and instruments (several feet here), it is quite deep on others. For me the piano is about 15 feet behind the speakers and the bass a bit forward of the piano and not far left of it, so a good test for depth and right/left location and saturation.

Good luck pulling in the front to back part!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/12/13 at 01:21:14 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
marky
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 383
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #17 - 12/12/13 at 19:19:03
 
Palomino #10 Description of soundstage is much the same as mine.
I use diffusers, 7 1/2 x 4 1/2ft rear, 4 off 4 1/2 x 1 1/2ft side walls, bass traps in corner behind speakers. Depth is more noticable on the sides because, I think, you have the `back soundstage` and the speaker plane themselves....it`s more apparent. Moving center stage is where you have to take the, how shall I say, `clarity` or `up in the mix more` of the singer as the hint he is in front of the drummer. That you can hear all the drummers work also clearly is 3D ish. My bass player is usually to the right for me (does anyone swap l/r over at times). His notes are thicker bandwidth and intended to radiate so pinpointing is not always possible. You know he`s standing over there and seperate from the drums. If he `intentionally` plays down in the mix then you have to listen more when he goes into the drummers terratory. Again, hear all the notes ( thankyou Decware) Guitars can be anywhere.
The engineer may want to present the band as they appear live even though the recoding is made up gradually.
Some bands will record live, all in the same room, mikes picking up more info which all equates to spatial placing in the recording and playback.
These recordings are I would say most peoples favourites. L. Feat albums
a good example have that atmosphere..and I dont like to say 3D these recordings bring the soundstage around from the backcorners and further along the walls in 3D body.
Front ends lol If I had  a koestsu the singer might be treading on my toes.


Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/12/13 at 20:10:14 by marky »  
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 879
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #18 - 12/12/13 at 20:15:38
 


Will, I'm so intrigued by those little bell like cups and stuff you have. I'm very, very skeptical, but very curious.

Marky, you have photos of your setup!? I love seeing rooms with sound treatment!

If anyone is curious, I have a collection of diffuser images I've put up on my ZenFolio gallery. I have a ton more I need to add, but it's my own little collection of "sound treatment porn" LOL

http://lonelyraven.zenfolio.com/p968463117

Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1084
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #19 - 12/12/13 at 21:35:11
 
Raven said:

Quote:
Will, I'm so intrigued by those little bell like cups and stuff you have. I'm very, very skeptical, but very curious.


Yes, I get that.....very, very skeptical is a clearly a school of thought in audio land for things that we don't clearly get.... I mean, how can a little box broadcasting 7.83 Hertz (Schumann Resonance) help articulate the sound and therefore the soundstage? You have got me.

Since my system/room has gotten so revealing though, there is little that surprises me any more. I mean there are still a bunch of folks who don't believe different wires, wire configurations, cable ends and so on make a difference, and I hear differences in every cable I have. Perhaps not profound in some ways and some times, but in serious listening, and for the last few percent, meaningful...and in my travels the last few percent are really important.

But if one can't hear it, for whatever reasons, be it system or room issues, attitude, or physical issues......that is as it is. My system lets me hear a lot though....so I tend to check stuff out if there is a compelling reason (like trying to avoid lots of obvious room treatments in the living room), and when I have had enough plausible explanations to believe the possibilities, AND as long as it can be returned!

It is all a lot of interesting exploration to me...this quest for the sense of players in the room. I have been getting that for a long time, and even so, I am always surprised to have it get better with this or that change. Also interesting to see how different folks get there.

Thanks for the treatment pic page by the way. It is nice to see the possibilities of beautifully applied room treatment.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/12/13 at 21:36:50 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 265
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #20 - 12/20/13 at 16:28:28
 
I am open to any treatments or products that take me from this:



To more of this:



I'm getting a great horizontal and vertical soundstage and good holographic voice and instruments.  I am just trying to get them more separated front to back (with recordings that are engineered this way).
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/20/13 at 16:33:30 by Palomino »  

Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1084
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #21 - 12/20/13 at 22:34:49
 
Palomino,

Are your speakers turned in that much? I guess you have tried different to-ins...mine are very slightly toed OUT for the best effect in this room. Even a 1/4 inch has some effect....Bound to be variable depending on room reflections, but I would think worth experimenting in small increments from where they are right through to just a bit out from straight on if you have not tried this.

Other than for mid bass, bass, and excess reflections, my "treatments" are 1) the points on the side walls where with a mirror, you can see the tweeter from your seat 2) front wall center and back center.

If you don't have bass issues to muddle the mid-high info, might be worth the experiment to hang a thick towel at the first reflection areas, and maybe in front and back of your head position (tending to highish rather than lowish).... see what happens. Perhaps rugs or carpet parts, or a towel sort of rippled/bunched a little like drapes, for more effect in the experiment.

If this seems to help, and you can aesthetically deal with it in your room, 2" dense fiberglass panels with stretched, musically transparent cloth are not too hard to make. If you have all hard walls and glass now, this cutting reflection with absorber angle could be a pretty good one to play with.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/20/13 at 22:36:22 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 265
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #22 - 12/20/13 at 22:55:16
 
My speakers are actually toed in about what is showing in the diagram.  I experimented to get to that point but I continue to play with it.  I'll start pointing them further out and see if it helps.


I recently built 7 24X48 2" panels http://acousticsfreq.com/blog/?p=62 and the results were pretty dramatic.  That is what got me going on this path.  I have one in the middle behind the speakers, two acting as quasi bass traps in the corners, two at the mirror reflection points on the sides, one in the back in the middle and two on the ceiling.  Helped the imaging and tamed the bass.  Best $120 I have spent on audio.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1084
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #23 - 12/22/13 at 01:30:20
 
I bet that was a great audio investment!

I might be inclined to play around with the seat placement a bit, and/or the absorber placement. There is that Rule of thirds thing some folks use.

Whatever though, speaker angle logically effects the trajectory of how the waves bounce around the room and finally to the seat. Also how the absorbers catch, or don't catch waves and reflections. Somewhere in this may be a path for improvement, by changing the toe, or/and the placement of absorbers to catch the waves in a different, but still calculated way.

Again, my system is way better at sound stage when the detail is not overwhelmed by the bass and mid bass. And detail does not necessarily mean bright. For some reason 7Dj8's often bring out the right stuff a little more in my Torii. But I wonder, do you feel like your bass is sorted out? Do you need an official bass trap that goes low?

Or might more absorbers be better used in corners? Or move the front or back one to become a wall/ceiling angled absorber. Also, offsetting the ceiling ones from the the ceiling a couple inches might allow area for some waves to bounce and die, lowering the frequency that they absorb.

I wonder too about the front and back absorbers still mounted flat, but horizontally, but maybe offset them height-wise. I suppose this could give the front to back waves and reflections, whether direct or indirect, a better chance of being caught by one or another absorber. Or...what about putting both vertically on the wall behind the seat (or on the front wall) creating a wider area??? Probably already done this sort of stuff...I am just always inclined to play around to fine tune.

I have a lot of reflection here, but my whole ceiling is in effect a simple diffuser and absorber above of the logs and boards. And my walls are pretty organic being adobe, so reflections are less uniform, but also harder to read. I have a bunch of windows too. I put some resonance absorbers on them, and the sound is not appreciably different with the honeycomb shades down. So my room is very live, but the bass is controlled through traps and EQ. It does have good soundstage depth and width though.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/22/13 at 01:31:41 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1084
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #24 - 12/22/13 at 02:05:31
 
Palomino,

I just noticed you use a Mini with Audirvana. Audirvana Plus has eq, and may be really interesting to play with. I use AppleAUfliters, which do low shelf, high shelf and three parametric EQs in the middle. With four filters you can do a lot.

To find troubled bass zones I set a narrow Q, like .1-.3 octave, jack up the Dbs maybe 10 Db and slowly slide across the frequencies until the nasty resonant ones show up. I write them down as I go. Then it is easy to keep the Q really narrow and adjust down by sound....or to widen the Q's a bit if necessary to cover larger resonant areas and adjust until it sounds right.

Also interesting to explore small changes in the mid to upper frequencies, same method as above but less Db...maybe up or down 3-5 Db might tell the tale to find areas you might like more or less of.

With the graphic interface in Audirvana, it can be fun to play with it as you listen. Narrow the Q some, widen it, change the cut or hit.

I start with recordings that are good, but may be too bassy, or for mids and highs, that may be too intense or hard. It can be tedious, but if you make small adjustments, it is safe enough and can really improve the sound if your treatments are not quite enough, and do it very transparently for your whole collection.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/22/13 at 02:07:21 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 265
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #25 - 12/22/13 at 13:27:37
 
You got me thinking on the speaker toe in so I put them flat to a little open and then started toeing them in a bit at a time. I ended up in about them same place.  It was worth a shot.  I am trying to get the right balance between definition in the middle (vocals, etc), depth and width of soundstage.  Not enough toe in yields less definition and a shallower sound stage.  

I've only just begun to play with the absorbers. I am thinking about some dedicated traps.  I also built one diffuser and I'll be working on another today.  I set my distances per some equation. I can't remember which one right now.  I also have some tubes to roll through.  I think I have settled on the best rectifier but will try some different input tubes.

I just got audirvana plus so I will be checking out the eq.  I am having some problems with it locking up when integrated with iTunes.  I think it's locking up when I move from red book rips to high def.

I have some time over the break to play around with this.  Thanks for the ideas.  
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1084
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #26 - 12/22/13 at 17:31:24
 
Looks like you have it all going on. It is amazing how tuning can be so captivating, that bait of better sound always tempting us.

I am not an Audirvana user, so no expert by any means. Though I always like it at first, I tend to go back to Pure Music. Somehow, with this system/room, I get a more authentic, less processed sound with Pure. It is like Audirvana tries to work the "analog" smoothness angle a bit much, along with a bit too much push and definition layered into this effect. Subtle though and I think loads of folks prefer Audirvana, and I have explored Pure more.

You got me experimenting with it. Thanks for the reminder. One reason I really want to go further with it is that it appears to work in integer mode with my Tranquility DAC. So I will see if I can refine its settings to my tastes.

It was crashing at times for me as it integrated with iTunes also. I may have solved it by lowering the memory allocation to it. They recommend at least 2.5 GB to be left for the computer.

I love EQ to finish out my room problems (and preferences), and my settings are minimal (most less than 2 Db). But even if you don't use it in playback, it is an interesting and instructive way to identify problem areas for treatment. Flexes the hearing/perception abilities.

I have not gone with REW as it looks like more of a learning curve than I ever have time for. But I do run measurements with DSpeaker AntiMode 2.0 now and then, which actually works really well on its own for sorting out low frequency troubles. But I go back and forth using it and just straight EQ, liking the sound of the simple signal chain without....

On the other hand, I like the ease of letting AntiMode do the work, and the reenforcement of checking my ear against actual measurement. I was gratified to find that before I bought a used AntiMode, I had the low EQ set very, very close to how Anti-Mode did it. It is harder with mids and highs, I suspect because of the HR-1s radial dispersion making measurement difficult. Seems I can use somewhere around half the adjustments the Antimode perceives to good effect though. That puts me sort of half way back to "by ear" but I like that fine.

I look forward to how your experiments end up!

Will
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/22/13 at 18:16:47 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
jorgen
Verified Member
**




Posts: 47
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #27 - 12/22/13 at 21:03:14
 
Not sure ill will suggest anything that will meet your needs, but check out kings of convinience ; quiet is the new loud
morphine (obviosly); like swimming
Kyuss; ..and then the circus leaves town

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 879
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #28 - 12/23/13 at 02:10:21
 
Palomino - IMHO, to improve your depth, you need diffusers on the rear wall and front wall. Or at very least on the front wall. A couple 1D QRD on the front wall I think would liven up the ambiance and tighten up the imaging. It would make the reverb in the recordings wrap around the room better.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/23/13 at 02:14:56 by Lonely Raven »  
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 265
Re: Good "3D" recordings?
Reply #29 - 12/23/13 at 13:57:37
 
Will,

I think I am starting to agree with you on Audirvana.  It seems to be trying a little too hard. But the combination of Audirvana and a new DAC I am trying out is giving me better sound than I had via the dock via coax or just iTunes out of the mini using optical.

Everybody seems to have a favorite.  I just tried Audirvana because of the free download and then the initial low price.  I may have to try some of the others.  

Raven, I can try positioning of the absorbers and diffusers.  I should have the second skyline done today.  Only thing is those suckers are heavy.  Also, don't forget that 3/4 of my front wall is covered with my "mathematically placed" VHS tapes Grin  Also, with a little instruction, I think I can build some QRDs.

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/23/13 at 14:00:12 by Palomino »  

Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print