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CSP 3 tube rolling (Read 1534 times)
franchetti1
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CSP 3 tube rolling
11/17/13 at 17:03:44
 
I am new to the forum and just got my CSP3 with the beeswax caps. It sounds fantastic and improves the sound of my DAC (Oppo 105) and SS amp (using a mix of a Sunfire TGA5200 and a Bedini 250/250) with a pair of Shahinian Obelisks omnidirectional speakers. Does anyone has any advice for input tube rolling suggestions?
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beowulf
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #1 - 11/17/13 at 21:47:16
 
Hi franchetti1, sorry I can't help but just wanted to say welcome to the forums ... also, your speakers look pretty cool, never even heard of them until now. Cool
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« Last Edit: 11/17/13 at 21:47:37 by beowulf »  
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Lord Soth
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #2 - 11/18/13 at 04:29:36
 
Hi Franchetti1,

Welcome aboard !! Smiley

I own both the CSP2+ and the newer CSP3.

Since the internals are similar, you can get your tube rolling information from the CSP2+ thread.

For starters, I suggest replacing the stock rectifier with either an RCA or Tung Sol 5Y3 rectifier. This $25 upgrade is really value for money.

The stock config of 6N1Ps should be good enough for most audiophiles.

Other suggestions, Google "Joe's tube lore" for the input tube replacement.

Have fun! Smiley
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will
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #3 - 11/19/13 at 04:53:39
 
Franchetti1,

Glad the CSP3 is so good in your system. I really like mine too!

Where you go with tube rolling would most efficiently be based on what you would prefer compared to the stock tubes. If your CSP3 is lacking openness, clarity or micro detail in your system, that would be one thing. Or if it is overly clear in your system...that would lead you another way tube-wise.

If you like the warm, open, "big," and "tubey" quality of the Valve Art 274B rectifier, you will lose some dynamics and feel of power with a 5Y3GT. But if the system is overly dynamic, a good 5Y3 is perhaps a good direction.

The front tube is a very good place to play around too, a single tube being less of a risk, and since it is not an output tube, like the middle two, that position can work well with quite a variety of tubes. Mine is not like Lord Soth's where he can roll several different tube types into the middle/output position. For me, variations of 6N1Ps all work fine there, and most 6BQ7A, but that is it. In the input however, 6N1P, 6N23P, 6922, 6DJ8, 7DJ8, E188CC/7308, E288CC...they all work.

Along with the CSP2 tube rolling info, there is more here:
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1377038564/0

Have fun...I like all the tube combinations I have tried in the CSP3, but some are more amazing than others.
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« Last Edit: 11/19/13 at 06:16:28 by will »  

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franchetti1
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #4 - 11/23/13 at 11:25:12
 
What input tubes has anyone used which sounds better (different) than the stock inout tube in the CSP3?
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marky
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #5 - 11/23/13 at 12:10:50
 
Compared to some NOS tubes the Phillips green label and Bugleboy 7dj8`s seem bargains. I use them in my Rachaels and CSP2+.
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Lon
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #6 - 11/23/13 at 13:00:46
 
I find the 6N1P to be the best tube type myself, and like these the most:


http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=81&products_id=263&osCsid=...
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6n1scpr.jpg

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Digger
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #7 - 11/23/13 at 13:04:19
 
Hi Franchetti,
The CSP3+ is one great pre amp. I just recently rolled some RT 12AT7 Nos Military tubes into my power amp that actually added a bit more base and with the stock 6n1p-ev tubes just made it a little bass heavy for my liking kinda boomy sounding. It would probably be great for a home theater setup but not how I use the system. I picked up a pair of Phillips 6922 Cryo tubes from Ron at Cryoset and installed them in the output side and left the stock 6n1p-ev in the input stage. Very nice combination! I retained the tubey sweet saturation of the 6n1p tubes but crispened up and added more focused detail to the overall sound with just a slight less amount of base it sounds just perfect now for my ears. I did purchase a Nos 6DJ8 tube Sovtek and have tried it with the 6n1p in the output stage but wasn't impressed with the sound seemed to flatten the sound out to much. I do have one disclaimer though that none of the tubes have been burned in no tubes over a couple of hours on them so it will be fun to see how they burn in and the sound changes they will go through.

Wink
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franchetti1
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #8 - 11/23/13 at 13:12:06
 
Thanks for the advice.

Lon,
Do you use these 6n1p's as an input and both output tubes?

Joe
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Digger
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #9 - 11/23/13 at 13:15:00
 
Lon,
I do have to agree with you on the 6n1p tubes at least in the input section being the best for sound for myself also. Putting the 6DJ8 in made me think it wasn't a lot better than having a SS setup maybe just to flat and clean. Don't know if I'll bother trying a different 6Dj8 may just get a set of cryo 6n1p' from Ron and call it good. The 6n1p make me feel that I have a tube rig and I guess that is what we all want at least that is what were purchasing into! Its all about good music sipping wine and having fun. My time is growing shorter every day.
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Lon
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #10 - 11/23/13 at 13:27:59
 
franchetti1 wrote on 11/23/13 at 13:12:06:
Thanks for the advice.

Lon,
Do you use these 6n1p's as an input and both output tubes?

Joe


Yes Joe, I do.
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Lon
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #11 - 11/23/13 at 13:33:17
 
D, if you do get them allow a week or so of use before they "bloom." After a lot of play they become a wonderful window into the music for me in my Toriis and CSP2+s.

Of course this is all system and tube set dependent, etc. Whenever I try a new tube set I put in recordings I made of bands I was in rehearsing and playing in the garage apartment I then lived in, and recordings I have listened to for decades as a base line for tonality and dynamics. I keep coming back to the 6N1P type. Others like the 6922, others the 7DJ8, etc.

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Digger
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #12 - 11/23/13 at 13:48:04
 
Lon,
I have a question for you since you are a very good source of information on the 6n1p tubes. What is the sound differences between the stock 6n1p tubes that are shipped with the unit and the cryo 6n1p tubes. You liking them so well has made me want to pick up a set from Ron he just received an order for them. I do have to say they sing in this pre amp.

Cool
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Digger
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #13 - 11/23/13 at 13:55:23
 
Lon,
One day I would love to pickup a Torri Mark something either 3 or 4 I'm sure I would love it. If it wasn't for just purchasing a Jolida 502P previous to learning about Decware I may of been able to. I found Decware searching for pre-amps for the Jolida wouldn't you know it. I could probably do it but I believe the wife would think I needed mental help or some thing doing it this soon. Need to keep her happy!

She could be right! I'm sure we all could use a little mental adjustment from time to time. I think Decware could do it.

Cool
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« Last Edit: 11/23/13 at 13:57:44 by Digger »  
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Lon
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #14 - 11/23/13 at 14:41:30
 
Digger,

I would say the fundamental difference is that they seem "faster." They have a very open midrange and are not raggedy at the top or sluggish at the bottom. The stock tubes are very good, these are just about 10 percent better or so in these aspects.

I think we all need some mental adjustment, which is what the audio products are for!

I know I need it. For the last few weeks my mother has been receiving nonsense messages round the clock that she has to tell my Dad and I in detail. (This has been happening since June, but now they are non-stop all day long. No medication has worked to stop them). She reads them off the wall and the garage across the street and once they were written on her feet. They are always asking me to do things like open up the door and leave it open as someone is coming across the street to come in right now. When I tell her I can't or won't do that, that these are imaginary things, etc. she gets very upset with me. It consumes her entire day and ours. My Dad is three days behind on the two papers he loves to read.  We have an appointment with a geriatric psychiatrist in nine days and I'm just hoping we can make it. The few hours a day I get to spend in front of my system are GOLD. Precious, irreplaceable.
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« Last Edit: 11/23/13 at 14:57:56 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #15 - 11/23/13 at 16:29:03
 
Lon,

Sorry to hear the latest in your caregiving difficulties! Good luck sorting through that.

Digger,

Interestingly, 6N1Ps tend to have more subtle differences between tube vintage and factory, but they do vary from tube to tube, and depending on cryo treatment. I find that the other inputs can vary more, particularly 7DJ8s can sometimes sound like a different tube type altogether. Also, as you suggest, burn in does matter, more with some inputs than others. I suspect the one Sovtek 6DJ8 may or may not be a clear representation of the 6DJ8 type, but rather one option, and it could possibly be notably better in 50 or so hours..possibly. On the other hand, the tube type does tend toward a sound that is a bit less bassy and more open and textured...how it does this varies a lot though, and some 6DJ8s defy this altogether being very warm, with deep bass and pretty clear, articulate highs (a bit more like the 6922 tendency).


Admittedly, I love tube play, so have a lot to play with. And within this context, as much as I try to like the 6N1P, they always come up a bit short for me. It may be because my DAC and system/room is very good at spacial information, micro detail and textures, and finally the 6N1P just does not go as deeply into these areas as some tubes...so they end up sounding a little unrefined comparatively.

But as Lon says, it all depends on the system and tastes. The 6N1P can obviously be really satisfying for many folks, being very well liked by Decware folks with really good systems and ears, so if they work really well........Personally, I have enjoyed them in the output position of the CSP3, but at the moment I like some 6BQ7As better there.

I think the CSP3 is a great tool, and tubes show up very well in it, making the possibilities for different sound (at least within its basic signature) sort of vast. Different rectifiers, different inputs, and different outputs, added to teh input and output volumes....lots of room for refinement. But then, It sounds great right out of the box without tube rolling too.
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« Last Edit: 11/23/13 at 16:31:24 by will »  

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franchetti1
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #16 - 11/27/13 at 22:13:13
 
Lord Soth,
What do you consider the best rectifier tube for a csp3 for under $100> Brimer 5r4gy?
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Lord Soth
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #17 - 11/28/13 at 01:22:32
 
Dear Franchetti,

The best sounding rectifier in my audio chain is the Brimar 5r4. I got my "D" getters from elsewhere but "O" getters are currently sold by Langrex UK. It is the coolest looking too with a coke bottle voluptuous hourglass shape. Wink

The CSP3 and CSP2+ were originally  designed around the 5Y3 rectifier.

So the best sounding alternatives are either the Tung Sol or RCA 5Y3 for US$25 each.
If possible, try to get the older "D" getter type.
The coke bottle 5y3g looks cooler than the straight sided 5y3gt, with slightly warmer sonics too due to older age.

If you can't get hold of the above NOS tubes, another good alternative I tried is the Philips 5R4GYS sold by Upscale audio for $50 ea.

If you have the budget for tube-rolling, suggest u get all the above.
Tube-rolling is great fun!!!
There is nothing like hearing the sonic difference for yourself.
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franchetti1
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #18 - 12/03/13 at 22:21:34
 
Lon,
How would you compare the Voshod 6N1p-EV to the stock 6N1p 's in the CSP3?

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Lon
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Re: CSP 3 tube rolling
Reply #19 - 12/03/13 at 23:55:54
 
I don't have a CSP3. . . . I have three CSP2+ and a CSP2 (in three systems).

Turns out I answered that above, but it's been so long since I listened to the stock 6N1Ps (and I'm not sure I have even listened to any of those that Steve has been sending these days, my listening was four or five years ago.) From memory I'd say that the cryo'd take considerably longer to break in but when they do they're more "open" sounding (more transparent midrange). I would say that is the biggest difference. The very open midrange may make the higher and lower frequencies just appear different or they may be a bit more refined. Hard to say. I definitely preferred the cryo'd after breakin when I compared years ago and I've just continued to use the cryo'd ones. Since so many love the 6922/6DJ8/7DJ8 family every now and then I try a pair of those out. . .but they haven't yet stayed in. A pair of cryo'd Russian 6922s have burned in nicely in the C amp and CSP2 that I have at my Dad's place, I may try them out in the Torii, but I really would be surprised if they stayed in in place of the cryo'd 6N1P.
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« Last Edit: 12/04/13 at 00:00:33 by Lon »  

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