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Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations (Read 8427 times)
Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #60 - 08/21/14 at 15:30:21
 
[EPILOGUE - NOS PHILIPS METAL BASE EL34 vs NOS GEC KT66 GRAYGLASS]

In my audio chain, I am now 100% convinced that the NOS Metal base Philips Holland EL34 beats the crap out of the NOS GEC KT66 Grayglass tubes.

Why?

After my initial experience with the EL34s described in the above post, I started to seriously think about changing the settings on my MK4.

Voila!

Previously, I (erroneously) thought that with the EL34s, there was a big sacrifice to be made to the low end Bass and high end Treble.

So what I did was to

(a) Turn "on" the Bass Switch
What's interesting here is that with the KT66, the bass is nice and tight and impactful when the switch is turned "off".
When the switch is turned "on", the bass becomes over boomy.

The exact opposite happens with the EL34s. Weird but true!!!
I simply turned "on" the Bass switch this time.
The bass is now nice and tight with the EL34s and there is no longer such a pronounced difference between the two.

(b) Treble Switch
With the EL34s in place, I also maxed out (clockwise) the Treble switch.
The sound of stringed instruments also improved by a noticeable margin.

With the Hazen Grid Mod activated, sonic clarity improved by quite a fair bit.

The soundstage depth also improved and the main vocalist became more "3D" like and centered in the Phantom center channel.

The EL34s add a special vocal "presence" to the midrange of the music.
Vocals seem to be slightly forward now, which is what I favour coz' I also use this setup for movies.

With the EL34s in place, I simply fell in love with my Torii MK4 all over again.

The other members of my family also asked me what I did to my system to improve it by such a wide margin.
This is my personal litmus test for tube-rolling because they are independent casual listeners.
In simple layman's terms, it just "sounds better".


Cheers!


My Audio Chain consists of

Oppo BDP 95
-> Soundsilver Symmetry Interconnects
-> Torii MK 4 ( default fuse)
-> Clearday Double Shotgun Speaker Cables
-> Alesis Monitor One Mk2 (Passive) Speakers (TEC 1994 Winner)

Tubes Used (Kept Constant during output tube-rolling)

Rectifier : Brimar 5R4GY "D' Getter
VR Tubes : RCA 0A3 "D" Getter,
                RCA 0C2 "0" Getter (any "D" getter versions out there???)
Preamp tubes: Holland Herleen Pinched Waist PCC88 "D" Getter

Output Tubes ( Changed in Shootout)
Output Tubes : NOS GEC KT66 Gray Glass "D" Getter
                      Vs
                      NOS Philips Holland Metal Base EL34

MK4 Settings
Speaker Impedance: 8 Ohms
Reconstructive Feedback : Off
Bass : On
Treble : MAX "ON" Clockwise Position
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« Last Edit: 08/21/14 at 21:36:43 by Lord Soth »  
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #61 - 08/21/14 at 15:37:43
 
I'm happy for you. You've found your tubes of choice!

My tubes of choice are the new production Genelax Gold Lion KT-66. Bass controls are different on both of my Mk IIs, and they work best with either. Bass controls on both my Mk IIs are very different than on the Mk IV, as is the treble control, so I'm not surprised that I have different results.

Love these KT-66 and what they do to my system!
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Lord Soth
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I'm an American
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Posts: 253
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #62 - 08/21/14 at 15:42:31
 
Hi Lon,

In my system, I can't believe what I've been missing out for almost a year with the KT66 in place.

I think I've finally cured my case of "audio upgradis" syndrome for at least the next decade.....

Cheers!
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Lon
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Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7492
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #63 - 08/21/14 at 15:46:09
 
COOL. I'd just like to point out that these are our preferences in our systems and rooms. Nothing absolute. In my experience, sources and speakers play a large part in determining our preferences for tubes in the amps. And the other rectifier, regulator and input tubes influence these preferences as well.  I have explored EL-34s in my system for YEARS. The KT-66 were a revelation, and in comparison continue to trounce EL-34s in my amps. I love the Mk III and all its flexibility, I'm glad I resisted temptation to buy a Mk IV or a ZMA, I'm truly set with these amps. Now the temptation is no longer there. . . audio funds of that sort are gone! Smiley
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« Last Edit: 08/21/14 at 15:51:19 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Lord Soth
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Posts: 253
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #64 - 08/21/14 at 21:56:21
 
Hi Lon,

If I had the MK3 like you, I'll also stick with it.
With the right tubes in place, there is no reason for any further upgrades.
Unless Steve comes up with his new OTL power amp.... Wink

Kudos to Steve for having the vision to include a tweakability factor to his line of Zen Torii amps.
Offhand, I can't think of any other tube amp maker with such an option.

In a positive way, these adjustment knobs help to mitigate the financial risk of trying out new expensive audio components.
For example, someone who introduces a new bass heavy audio cable can still make a bass adjustment via the Zen Torii amp.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #65 - 08/22/14 at 18:26:34
 
Though noting which tubes we compare and like best, EL34 and KT66 are admittedly only part of what is being compared. As Lon and I have found comparing Tungsol KT66 to Genalex KT66, just like all those EL34s we have tried, different KT66 sound different.

I am using Genalex KT66 in my MkIV right now and really liking their extended, slightly warm, rich, smooth and revealing balance, and all coming from a seductive "big" vibe. The MKIV bass switch works as expected with them. I can see how it could be nice with many EL34s since they tend toward a softer bass mid/bass, and enhanced upper mids in the MKIV. With the Genalex KT66, the switch also reduces midrange richness (as do the bass knobs on the MKIII in its own way), so I prefer to tune low bass with EQ in my software player.

With the Genalex KT66 I am using (I think 60's) Miniwatt PCC88s, Mullard labeled OC2, Dumont labelled 40's OB3, and 50's RCA 5U4G-ST with top D getters.

The sound is extreme in its natural, textured, clarified but musical (read "analog") beauty. Not quite like, say the Mullard reissue EL34, but maybe in between that and the Tungsol KT66, which by comparison sound really good, but are more open, leaner and more taught in my system/room than the Genalex.

I only tried Tungsol KT66 briefly in my MKIII, where I had been using cryo'd Mullard EL34 reissues, and with that tube compliment the Tungsol KT 66 had really nice articulate bass and smooth highs, but were too open and tight in the mids for me. But I use open and textured 7DJ8/PCC88 a lot and this may well have been the over-the-top factor compared to Lon's favored 6N1Ps. Now the Gelalex KT66, hmmm, I bet I could tune those into the MKIII with rich mids while retaining brilliant micro detail.

And from various explorations with the MKIV, I have been able to love Psvane 5881, Mullard reissue EL34, Russian 6P3S-E's, Tungsol KT66 and Genalex KT 66. But beyond the MKIV's inherent revealing, natural nature, and sweet musicality, and its excellent controls, I have a huge variety of tubes, and EQ, AND the CSP3 with different tubes, so I have a lot of fine tuning ability!
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« Last Edit: 08/22/14 at 18:34:25 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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Lon
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Posts: 7492
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #66 - 08/22/14 at 21:13:06
 
Hey will, just a clarification: I may not have mentioned it often here but a few months ago, at Mark58's urging and pointing out, I tried some Amperex 7308s in my main Mk III and they are the first of the 6922/6DJ8/7DJ8/6NH23 etc. type of tubes I've really liked of any make and model and I have built the sound around those rather then the 6N1P tubes now. The extra gain was a plus for use with my DVR (especially when running my DAC straight in and when the DirectStream arrived, which has a lower gain output.)

With the DirectStrean burned in for the most part, I now have put the CSP2+ with Jupiter caps in between it and the Torii and I'm still using choice (I went through a lot of different ones!) 6N1Ps in that and have the added gain I was craving a bit in there with little or no loss of transparency. I'm going to experiment with 7308s in the CSP2+ as well, have some on the way. Sound is really really really good right now and I'm beginning to sink back into the sound and not be analytical once again, whew. Soon I'll put the Tung-Sol KT-66 back in and see how they stack up against the now seasoned Genalex; I've had so much burning in for too long, I want to just enjoy an untampered with system for a spell. Especially as caregiving has become even more complex and stressy of late.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #67 - 08/22/14 at 21:43:42
 
Lon,

Sorry helping the folks has gotten more complex. I wish you all the best with that challenging work!

After so long, I am amazed you switched out from 6N1P but from my experience with 7308, I can sort of see it. They are amazingly solid and complete tubes for the most part. I have some in my CSP3 for the power tubes and really like them a lot. They look the same as Amperex PQs, but are green globes, and called 6922. I had been using a 7308 in the input position for a long time, with 7DJ8s in the power, but the CSP is hard on 7DJ8s as far as I can tell, at least mine, and I love the green globes as power. Also kept going back and forth in the MKIII with 7DJ8s and 7308 as inputs, though usually being glad to get back to 7DJ8s. I did not have the Gold Lion KT66 in there though.

I look forward to your thoughts on the Tungsol KT66 comparison. I have been contemplating getting some cryo'd Valve Art KT66, a different variation reissue of the GEC/Genalex of old. But my sound is so good the same tubes have stayed in my amp for something like 7 weeks since I put in the Gold Lions.

I hear you on the burnin syndrome. My latest are Synergistic Research Red fuses ...wow, not a bad burnin and what a resoled but very smooth sound!


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« Last Edit: 08/22/14 at 21:45:24 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7492
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #68 - 08/22/14 at 21:55:29
 
I've read lots of good things about those fuses. I may try them out one day. I'm pretty happy with the FUrutechs I have in place though.

Yes, the 7308 seem a lot different than the other types in that series and I've enjoyed their rich strength. No 6922, 6DJ8 or 7DJ8 have impressed me like this. (As you know the other tube complements have a lot of influence). Looking forward to seeing how they work in the CSP2+. . . .

Oh and also what has made putting the CSP2+ back into the chain possible is I found a used pair of the VooDoo Cable Ultralinear ICs so that I have those in the link both to and from the CSP2+. Ah. . .that's the ticket.
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« Last Edit: 08/22/14 at 22:29:19 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #69 - 08/22/14 at 22:43:16
 
Sounds good! What 7308s do you have?
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7492
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #70 - 08/22/14 at 23:05:59
 
I have a pair of Amperex recommended by Mark in the Mk III and I have a Seimens and two unbranded ones on the way for the CSP2+. (Trying to go a budget route for now; will try using the 6N1P as the CSP2+ "power" tubes first).
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« Last Edit: 08/23/14 at 00:46:07 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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ckc527
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #71 - 09/10/14 at 21:35:34
 
Anyone have experience with SEL Lorenz GZ32 rectifier tube? Only one person selling on ebay. Curious to know how they compare to other popular tubes used on the TORII MK3/MK4 and their true origin.

Thanks,
ckc
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