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Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations (Read 15862 times)
Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #50 - 03/25/14 at 11:41:30
 
I'll keep you posted. So far, 12 hours or so in, they're doing quite well. Like the 6CA7 they impart a vintage like sound. They have plenty of power for my needs. No real sonic detributes.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #51 - 03/25/14 at 23:14:09
 
Greg12,

I seem to recall some time ago that Ron thought the Ruby EL34 BHT had the same look and construction as the TAD 34B-STR. So I thought, a lot cheaper, though lacking whatever selection process TAD uses and I got the Rubys. I like them, but I would not call them rich per se. If they are the same now, thought you might want to check.
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« Last Edit: 03/25/14 at 23:16:44 by will »  

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Greg12
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #52 - 03/26/14 at 02:17:34
 
Thanks Will.  I'll keep them in mind for down the road. A lot of great choices.  Of course I still really like the OEM Tung-Sols, wonder it the cryo'd version do anything better.

But, it's all kind of moot for now.  Every time I start to think about ordering more tubes, I see a record I buy instead. Smiley

Greg

P.S.  Hope you are still enjoying the Mullards I sent you.  You're probably right in that I didn't give enough time to burn in.
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Torii MkIII with Jupiter caps, ZP3 with Jupiter caps, DM947 Monoliths, Oppo 105, Pro-ject Rm-5.1 Se TT. Hana SH Shibata MC Cartridge 2.0mV
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #53 - 03/26/14 at 16:24:49
 
Yes I do like those Mullards, and they did change in good ways with more burnin, mostly opening/tightening up mid-mids down to a warm, balanced detail, while smoothing and softening the hardish edges in the upper mids. When I first heard them I thought they showed a variation of many unbroken in power tubes actually....but more exaggerated in the imbalance of open/bright upper mids and too thick low mids-to-bass.

I have not tried the Tungsol EL34s except cryo'd, but would not be surprised if the "softer" quality of "raw" tubes might not be a benefit to that particular tube. It is so articulate that the subtle cleaning up, clarifying, and extension cryo tends to do may be a little over-kill for my tastes with that particular tube...just speculating though!

I have been exploring a few KT66/6L6 types but not as much as I would like...been caught by too many things that have kept me from being able to play with my system...hopefully this will change in the next weeks for the better...audio therapy is what I could use more of theses days...so I hear you on buying records!
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #54 - 04/05/14 at 16:21:26
 
Well, ultimately the cryo'd Tung-Sol KT-66 are a better fit for my Mk III than the cryo'd TAD 6L6WGC-STR. I just can't not have that wide open midrange that the Tung-Sols bring, along with the forgiving top end. The TADs are quite good, but just not quite "involving" enough at this time in that machine. I'll put them back in at some point when more broken in.

In the meantime I've put the cryo'd TAD 6L6WGC-STR in the Torii Mk II that I have in my Dad's system ast the moment. They are sounding very good there. The Mk II has a slight retro vibe to the sound in comparison to my Mk IIIs and these tubes and the ERRs both complement this well. In the opposite of what Jim quotes Steve as saying about 6L6 tubes, these have a ver upward tilt with a tight and focused bass. At least in their current status of a few hundred hours on them. I've had to dial the treble way back with the treble cut circuit, but doing so I have a very nicely balanced and dynamic presentation, well-suited for the classical music that gets spun in this system. And they are very robustly built, quite handsome tubes.
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dalerf
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #55 - 04/06/14 at 02:58:09
 
I seem to have gone full circle, amp came with the KT66, then I put in RCA 6L6 black plates, now I have Svetlana EL34, the EL34 seem to have more crunch and warmer sound than the RCA and KT66. I'm having so much trouble trying to tone down my Klipsch RF7-II speakers, the horns are so overpowering, next step is to have the speaker crossovers modified by DeanG, this is my last resort. I'm don't think I would buy horn speakers again. Sensitivity of 101db is too high, can only play new and mint records, picks up everything.
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ckc527
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #56 - 08/02/14 at 00:40:16
 
Anyone try TAD KT66 from Cryoset in their MK4 ?

Thanks
ckc
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #57 - 08/02/14 at 08:18:14
 
Hi Dalerf,

In my setup, the Torii MK4 works well with 88-89 db speakers.

I rarely go above 10 out of 20 clicks on my volume control.
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #58 - 08/02/14 at 13:15:39
 
Wow. You don't listen very loud! Smiley
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #59 - 08/20/14 at 19:08:56
 
[PROLOGUE - NOS PHILIPS METAL BASE EL34 vs NOS GEC KT66 GRAYGLASS]

After reading about Greg's positive experience

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1385495950/30

with the Torii MK3 and his preference of the EL34 over KT66 tubes, I just had to tube roll and finally pit my NOS Philips Holland Metal Base EL34s against my NOS GEC Grayglass KT66 power tubes.

The long and short of it is that I prefer the EL34s. Smiley

Except for the output tubes, my audio chain ( and other tubes used) is still the same ( details at the end of this post).

Reasons for liking the EL34 :-

(a)Midrange
The EL34 is known as the Queen of Midrange tubes.

It imparts a more seductive tone to the mids.

This is the primary reason for my personal preference!!!

(b)Higher Resolution

It must be the Hazen Grid being activated.

The KT66 is not veiled in any way but the EL34 just sounds much clearer.

(c) Soundstage

Again, the KT66 is not congested in any way but the EL34 expands the soundstage by quite a fair bit.

Adele's live performance of "Set Fire to the Rain" gave me an even more immersive sonic experience.


Weaknesses of the EL34 vs KT66

(a) Bass
The KT66 has tighter and more pronounced bass.

(b) Treble
The KT66 has sweeter sounding highs.

Stringed instruments sound much better using KT66 tubes.

Conclusion
I listen more to music with vocals as opposed to instrumental music.

There really is something magical about the (midrange of) metal based EL34s that makes me willing to sacrifice the better bass and treble of the KT66.

Please note that the KT66 is not lacking in any way.
It still ticks all the sonic boxes in an audiophile's checklist.

For those who are not willing to spend any extra on getting a NOS Quad of Metal base EL34s ( currently about US$1 Grand a Quad), I have the following suggestion.

I'm not affiliated with this tube seller in any way
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/psvane-philips-holland-metal-base...

But if you want to test the waters, then I suggest giving the metal base replicas a go ( currently at US$ 350 per Quad) .

Like myself, you might actually prefer the metal base EL34s.

Cheers!

My Audio Chain consists of

Oppo BDP 95
-> Soundsilver Symmetry Interconnects
-> Torii MK 4
-> Clearday Double Shotgun Speaker Cables
-> Alesis Monitor One Mk2 (Passive) Speakers (TEC 1994 Winner)

Tubes Used (Kept Constant during input tube-rolling)

Rectifier : Brimar 5R4GY "D' Getter
VR Tubes : RCA 0A3 "D" Getter,
                RCA 0C2 "0" Getter (any "D" getter versions out there???)
Preamp Tubes : Holland Herleen Pinched Waist PCC88 "D" Getter

Output Tubes : NOS GEC KT66 Gray Glass "D" Getter
                      Vs
                      NOS Philips Holland Metal Base EL34

MK4 Settings
Speaker : 8 Ohms
Reconstructive Feedback : Off
Bass : Off
Treble : Middle Position
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« Last Edit: 08/21/14 at 17:36:08 by Lord Soth »  
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #60 - 08/21/14 at 15:30:21
 
[EPILOGUE - NOS PHILIPS METAL BASE EL34 vs NOS GEC KT66 GRAYGLASS]

In my audio chain, I am now 100% convinced that the NOS Metal base Philips Holland EL34 beats the crap out of the NOS GEC KT66 Grayglass tubes.

Why?

After my initial experience with the EL34s described in the above post, I started to seriously think about changing the settings on my MK4.

Voila!

Previously, I (erroneously) thought that with the EL34s, there was a big sacrifice to be made to the low end Bass and high end Treble.

So what I did was to

(a) Turn "on" the Bass Switch
What's interesting here is that with the KT66, the bass is nice and tight and impactful when the switch is turned "off".
When the switch is turned "on", the bass becomes over boomy.

The exact opposite happens with the EL34s. Weird but true!!!
I simply turned "on" the Bass switch this time.
The bass is now nice and tight with the EL34s and there is no longer such a pronounced difference between the two.

(b) Treble Switch
With the EL34s in place, I also maxed out (clockwise) the Treble switch.
The sound of stringed instruments also improved by a noticeable margin.

With the Hazen Grid Mod activated, sonic clarity improved by quite a fair bit.

The soundstage depth also improved and the main vocalist became more "3D" like and centered in the Phantom center channel.

The EL34s add a special vocal "presence" to the midrange of the music.
Vocals seem to be slightly forward now, which is what I favour coz' I also use this setup for movies.

With the EL34s in place, I simply fell in love with my Torii MK4 all over again.

The other members of my family also asked me what I did to my system to improve it by such a wide margin.
This is my personal litmus test for tube-rolling because they are independent casual listeners.
In simple layman's terms, it just "sounds better".


Cheers!


My Audio Chain consists of

Oppo BDP 95
-> Soundsilver Symmetry Interconnects
-> Torii MK 4 ( default fuse)
-> Clearday Double Shotgun Speaker Cables
-> Alesis Monitor One Mk2 (Passive) Speakers (TEC 1994 Winner)

Tubes Used (Kept Constant during output tube-rolling)

Rectifier : Brimar 5R4GY "D' Getter
VR Tubes : RCA 0A3 "D" Getter,
                RCA 0C2 "0" Getter (any "D" getter versions out there???)
Preamp tubes: Holland Herleen Pinched Waist PCC88 "D" Getter

Output Tubes ( Changed in Shootout)
Output Tubes : NOS GEC KT66 Gray Glass "D" Getter
                      Vs
                      NOS Philips Holland Metal Base EL34

MK4 Settings
Speaker Impedance: 8 Ohms
Reconstructive Feedback : Off
Bass : On
Treble : MAX "ON" Clockwise Position
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« Last Edit: 08/21/14 at 21:36:43 by Lord Soth »  
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #61 - 08/21/14 at 15:37:43
 
I'm happy for you. You've found your tubes of choice!

My tubes of choice are the new production Genelax Gold Lion KT-66. Bass controls are different on both of my Mk IIs, and they work best with either. Bass controls on both my Mk IIs are very different than on the Mk IV, as is the treble control, so I'm not surprised that I have different results.

Love these KT-66 and what they do to my system!
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #62 - 08/21/14 at 15:42:31
 
Hi Lon,

In my system, I can't believe what I've been missing out for almost a year with the KT66 in place.

I think I've finally cured my case of "audio upgradis" syndrome for at least the next decade.....

Cheers!
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Lon
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Posts: 11988
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #63 - 08/21/14 at 15:46:09
 
COOL. I'd just like to point out that these are our preferences in our systems and rooms. Nothing absolute. In my experience, sources and speakers play a large part in determining our preferences for tubes in the amps. And the other rectifier, regulator and input tubes influence these preferences as well.  I have explored EL-34s in my system for YEARS. The KT-66 were a revelation, and in comparison continue to trounce EL-34s in my amps. I love the Mk III and all its flexibility, I'm glad I resisted temptation to buy a Mk IV or a ZMA, I'm truly set with these amps. Now the temptation is no longer there. . . audio funds of that sort are gone! Smiley
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« Last Edit: 08/21/14 at 15:51:19 by Lon »  

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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #64 - 08/21/14 at 21:56:21
 
Hi Lon,

If I had the MK3 like you, I'll also stick with it.
With the right tubes in place, there is no reason for any further upgrades.
Unless Steve comes up with his new OTL power amp.... Wink

Kudos to Steve for having the vision to include a tweakability factor to his line of Zen Torii amps.
Offhand, I can't think of any other tube amp maker with such an option.

In a positive way, these adjustment knobs help to mitigate the financial risk of trying out new expensive audio components.
For example, someone who introduces a new bass heavy audio cable can still make a bass adjustment via the Zen Torii amp.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #65 - 08/22/14 at 18:26:34
 
Though noting which tubes we compare and like best, EL34 and KT66 are admittedly only part of what is being compared. As Lon and I have found comparing Tungsol KT66 to Genalex KT66, just like all those EL34s we have tried, different KT66 sound different.

I am using Genalex KT66 in my MkIV right now and really liking their extended, slightly warm, rich, smooth and revealing balance, and all coming from a seductive "big" vibe. The MKIV bass switch works as expected with them. I can see how it could be nice with many EL34s since they tend toward a softer bass mid/bass, and enhanced upper mids in the MKIV. With the Genalex KT66, the switch also reduces midrange richness (as do the bass knobs on the MKIII in its own way), so I prefer to tune low bass with EQ in my software player.

With the Genalex KT66 I am using (I think 60's) Miniwatt PCC88s, Mullard labeled OC2, Dumont labelled 40's OB3, and 50's RCA 5U4G-ST with top D getters.

The sound is extreme in its natural, textured, clarified but musical (read "analog") beauty. Not quite like, say the Mullard reissue EL34, but maybe in between that and the Tungsol KT66, which by comparison sound really good, but are more open, leaner and more taught in my system/room than the Genalex.

I only tried Tungsol KT66 briefly in my MKIII, where I had been using cryo'd Mullard EL34 reissues, and with that tube compliment the Tungsol KT 66 had really nice articulate bass and smooth highs, but were too open and tight in the mids for me. But I use open and textured 7DJ8/PCC88 a lot and this may well have been the over-the-top factor compared to Lon's favored 6N1Ps. Now the Gelalex KT66, hmmm, I bet I could tune those into the MKIII with rich mids while retaining brilliant micro detail.

And from various explorations with the MKIV, I have been able to love Psvane 5881, Mullard reissue EL34, Russian 6P3S-E's, Tungsol KT66 and Genalex KT 66. But beyond the MKIV's inherent revealing, natural nature, and sweet musicality, and its excellent controls, I have a huge variety of tubes, and EQ, AND the CSP3 with different tubes, so I have a lot of fine tuning ability!
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« Last Edit: 08/22/14 at 18:34:25 by will »  

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Lon
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"Love without
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Posts: 11988
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #66 - 08/22/14 at 21:13:06
 
Hey will, just a clarification: I may not have mentioned it often here but a few months ago, at Mark58's urging and pointing out, I tried some Amperex 7308s in my main Mk III and they are the first of the 6922/6DJ8/7DJ8/6NH23 etc. type of tubes I've really liked of any make and model and I have built the sound around those rather then the 6N1P tubes now. The extra gain was a plus for use with my DVR (especially when running my DAC straight in and when the DirectStream arrived, which has a lower gain output.)

With the DirectStrean burned in for the most part, I now have put the CSP2+ with Jupiter caps in between it and the Torii and I'm still using choice (I went through a lot of different ones!) 6N1Ps in that and have the added gain I was craving a bit in there with little or no loss of transparency. I'm going to experiment with 7308s in the CSP2+ as well, have some on the way. Sound is really really really good right now and I'm beginning to sink back into the sound and not be analytical once again, whew. Soon I'll put the Tung-Sol KT-66 back in and see how they stack up against the now seasoned Genalex; I've had so much burning in for too long, I want to just enjoy an untampered with system for a spell. Especially as caregiving has become even more complex and stressy of late.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #67 - 08/22/14 at 21:43:42
 
Lon,

Sorry helping the folks has gotten more complex. I wish you all the best with that challenging work!

After so long, I am amazed you switched out from 6N1P but from my experience with 7308, I can sort of see it. They are amazingly solid and complete tubes for the most part. I have some in my CSP3 for the power tubes and really like them a lot. They look the same as Amperex PQs, but are green globes, and called 6922. I had been using a 7308 in the input position for a long time, with 7DJ8s in the power, but the CSP is hard on 7DJ8s as far as I can tell, at least mine, and I love the green globes as power. Also kept going back and forth in the MKIII with 7DJ8s and 7308 as inputs, though usually being glad to get back to 7DJ8s. I did not have the Gold Lion KT66 in there though.

I look forward to your thoughts on the Tungsol KT66 comparison. I have been contemplating getting some cryo'd Valve Art KT66, a different variation reissue of the GEC/Genalex of old. But my sound is so good the same tubes have stayed in my amp for something like 7 weeks since I put in the Gold Lions.

I hear you on the burnin syndrome. My latest are Synergistic Research Red fuses ...wow, not a bad burnin and what a resoled but very smooth sound!


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« Last Edit: 08/22/14 at 21:45:24 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
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Lon
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Posts: 11988
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #68 - 08/22/14 at 21:55:29
 
I've read lots of good things about those fuses. I may try them out one day. I'm pretty happy with the FUrutechs I have in place though.

Yes, the 7308 seem a lot different than the other types in that series and I've enjoyed their rich strength. No 6922, 6DJ8 or 7DJ8 have impressed me like this. (As you know the other tube complements have a lot of influence). Looking forward to seeing how they work in the CSP2+. . . .

Oh and also what has made putting the CSP2+ back into the chain possible is I found a used pair of the VooDoo Cable Ultralinear ICs so that I have those in the link both to and from the CSP2+. Ah. . .that's the ticket.
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« Last Edit: 08/22/14 at 22:29:19 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #69 - 08/22/14 at 22:43:16
 
Sounds good! What 7308s do you have?
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #70 - 08/22/14 at 23:05:59
 
I have a pair of Amperex recommended by Mark in the Mk III and I have a Seimens and two unbranded ones on the way for the CSP2+. (Trying to go a budget route for now; will try using the 6N1P as the CSP2+ "power" tubes first).
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« Last Edit: 08/23/14 at 00:46:07 by Lon »  

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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #71 - 09/10/14 at 21:35:34
 
Anyone have experience with SEL Lorenz GZ32 rectifier tube? Only one person selling on ebay. Curious to know how they compare to other popular tubes used on the TORII MK3/MK4 and their true origin.

Thanks,
ckc
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #72 - 09/20/14 at 15:51:12
 
Hi everyone, I want to share my experience with some recent VR tube rolling I have done.

If you find that your Torii MK4 is still too "bright" or overly analytical, the following VR tubes will help to add more tube warmth.
This is not at the expense of sonic transparency.

I suggest replacing the default RCA VR tubes with European ones.

I replaced my RCA 0A3 with the British made "CV3798"
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0723.htm

I also replaced my RCA 0C2 with the British made "75C1" tube
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aas0044.htm
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_75c1~2.html


My Audio Chain now consists of :-

Oppo BDP 95
-> Soundsilver Symmetry Interconnects
-> Torii MK 4 ( default fuse)
-> Clearday Double Shotgun Speaker Cables
->  Zu Audio Soul Superfly Mk 1 b speakers

Tubes Used

Rectifier : Brimar 5R4GY "D' Getter
VR Tubes : STC CV3798 / 0A3 "D" Getter,
                Mullard 75C1 / 0C2 "D" Getter
Preamp tubes: Holland Herleen Pinched Waist PCC88 "D" Getter
Output Tubes : NOS Philips Holland Metal Base EL34

MK4 Settings
Speaker Impedance: 16 Ohms
Reconstructive Feedback : Off
Bass : On
Treble : MAX "ON" Clockwise Position
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« Last Edit: 09/20/14 at 16:52:03 by Lord Soth »  
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #73 - 10/07/14 at 06:31:56
 
Well LS,  I've been looking at your post long enough. I pulled the trigger on the VR's tonight. Hoping these have the same warmth for the MK III as they do your IV.  . The 75C1 pair are coming from Denmark so I won't get those until the end of the month. The British military CV3798's I ordered from Brent Jesse Recording so hopefully should see those before the weekend.  Been wanting to get another pair of OC2's for awhile anyways since all I have are the 2 stock ones in the amp.   The OA3's are a bit of a splurge because i've been pretty happy running OB3s but, I have been curious about the Brit tubes since you posted this so I gotta try them.  Looking forward to hearing them.

Greg
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« Last Edit: 10/07/14 at 06:46:44 by Greg12 »  

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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #74 - 10/08/14 at 00:07:17
 
Hi Lord Soth,

Give me some feed back on the performance of the Clear Day Double Shotgun cables with your speakers and amp. I have the Definitions MK 111 and have ordered the shotgun cables to be used with same amplifier.

George
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #75 - 10/08/14 at 02:24:10
 
Hi George,

I replaced my (unbranded 14 ga) copper speaker cables with the Clearday double shotguns.
Silver cables have higher resolution and transparency.
They are not bright but the copper cables are warmer.
The copper cables can't pick up microdetails and have less dynamics.

Hope this helps!

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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #76 - 10/08/14 at 02:31:08
 
Hi Greg,

M VR tubes were really virgin NOS covered with dust.
The VR tubes need around 20 hrs of breakin before they open up.
I went from "did I make a mistake??" to "OMG" after the breakin.

Hope to hear from you again when you have received them.

Cheers!
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #77 - 10/08/14 at 03:18:43
 
Hey LS,

Good to know about the break in period.  I'll definitely let you know the results.

Greg
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #78 - 10/08/14 at 16:52:55
 
Dang, just got an email from brent jessee recording stating the CV3798's are out of stock . LS, would you mind posting a link for where you got yours?

Thanks, Greg
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« Last Edit: 10/08/14 at 16:54:34 by Greg12 »  

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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #79 - 10/09/14 at 13:26:03
 
Hi Greg,

I got my vacuum tubes from Ebay.

Suggest you contact the following Ebay sellers
"thetuberoom"
"g4nbr" aka JRHELECTRONICS

They might have more in stock.

Good luck!
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #80 - 10/09/14 at 18:57:07
 
Great, thanks.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #81 - 10/09/14 at 19:40:51
 
Hey Greg, I think I remember your having bass density issues? If so, it is very likely that changing from the OB3 to and OA3 varient will not only increase bass, but also push and density overall. Just a heads up, just in case.... I wonder what the British varient of OB3 is?
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #82 - 10/10/14 at 18:51:25
 
Hi Will,

So I had been going back and forth with the kt66's and the el34's with the ob3 vr's.  Liked the mids with the 34's,  bass and treble with the 66's.   In the last month I was using the 66's and saw LS's report on the British oa3's and oc2's, specifically the warmth they brought and I realized that that was what I was missing.  So I replaced the ob3's with the stock oa3's and I'll be damned, there was the warmth I wanted.  And, the best part, the kt66's and oa3's play well together, like best friends.  : . No bass density issues here.   Really well rounded sound, rich, liquid and detailed.  The bass is powerful and yet controlled and nuanced.   I'm real pleased with the sound I'm getting now.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #83 - 10/10/14 at 18:55:16
 
:D
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #84 - 10/10/14 at 20:05:11
 
That sounds great Greg. Yes, the KT66s I have have nice controlled bass. Interesting the OA3s are good there with them. Are yours the Russian straight bottle? Those seem the cleanest and most open sounding of all I have, so they push the power tubes harder but with less density.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #85 - 10/10/14 at 20:46:58
 
No, mine are coke bottle RCA's
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #86 - 10/10/14 at 22:21:59
 
Nice.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #87 - 11/03/14 at 17:04:47
 
@Lord Soth,

So I have about 30 hours on the Valvo 75C1's.  I haven't done a real shootout with the OEM Raytheon's, just saw them on my step one day and popped them in.  I think I can concur with your assessment.  I haven't felt the need to fiddle with the treble cut with them in.  Was listening to a CD from the early 90's, Vinx - Rooms in my fatha's house.  I always thought it to be one of the best sounding recordings I have, and the music is amazing.  I think I've never enjoyed it so much. So I went ahead and ordered a cryo'd pair of the tubes from a Spanish seller on eBay after he confirmed they were British Mullards.  That will give me a playing pair and 2 back up pairs.  Should be set for OC2's.  Having an impossible time find any British CV3798's.  At any rate, thanks for the tip.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8cykZ77aCkU

Greg
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« Last Edit: 11/03/14 at 17:30:46 by Greg12 »  

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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #88 - 11/04/14 at 01:20:00
 
Hi Greg,

Glad to hear that you managed to locate some of those rare British VR tubes.

I only managed to get mine from sporadic raids via EBAY.

It still never ceases to amaze me when a couple of small glass bulbs can make such a big difference in improving the tone of a tube amp.

Cheers!
😃
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« Last Edit: 11/04/14 at 01:20:46 by Lord Soth »  
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #89 - 11/12/14 at 01:19:40
 
Greg,

i love that vinx album.  a great unheard gem!  well done!
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #90 - 11/12/14 at 01:21:30
 
have we decided on a good KT 66 to go in this bad boy with the stock tubes?
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #91 - 11/13/14 at 02:16:15
 
Thanks Roggae,  yeah I haven't heard the other Vinx cd's,  but this one my wife bought back int he 90's so I gotta credit her good taste.  It is one sonic beauty.  And this music is really grows on you.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #92 - 02/28/15 at 20:50:44
 
I have received my Torii a couple of weeks ago with the tubes that Steve advises and boy does this machine sound good.

Out of curiosity, I'd like some advise on possible changes to the tubes to suit my musical preferences: I listen to dub from the 70's, roots reggae and late 70's early 80's funk and sometimes Rolling Stones, Dylan, Springsteen.

thanks
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #93 - 02/28/15 at 21:09:12
 
Hey Guillaume,

There are so many nice ways to use tubes in the MKIV, what would you think about staying with what you now like for the 300-350 hours it will take to work through the bulk of burnin. It will likely take that long to stop burnin shifts and start to stabilize into what you can expect from the amp. This would give you chance to really get to know the amp in your system, and to make clear choices toward how you would like it change with tubes. All the tubes make a difference, and synergy is important...changing one tube or another can change the tonal balance and perhaps density, clarity, midrange warmth, detail, texture, articulation....lots of things.

Can you identify which tubes Steve sent with yours? Probably Russian VRs and Ruby/Shuguang rectifiers??? And what are the power tubes and inputs?

Have fun with your great new amp!
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #94 - 04/20/15 at 22:14:47
 
not sure this is the right place to post this, but I stumbled upon this awesome shootout report of 13 tubes

http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-730...
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #95 - 05/10/15 at 18:10:38
 
I started this thread over 1 and a half years ago.

Since then, my amp and speaker settings have changed.

The purpose of this update is to explain some of my current tube choices and to highlight the 2nd stage of amp breakin that comes from owning this amp for over 1 year.

My current Audio Chain consists of:

Oppo BDP 95
-> Soundsilver Symmetry Interconnects
-> Torii MK 4
-> Clearday Double Shotgun Speaker Cables
-> Zu Audio Soul Superfly 16 Ohms speakers

Final Tubes Used:

Input Tubes : Holland Made PCC88/7DJ8 Pinched Waist -> ( see Joe's Tube lore; IMHO these have 95% of the Pinched Waist 6922s but at 1/2 the cost)
Rectifier : Brimar 5R4GY "D' Getter -> Provides Warmth to the mids with excellent tight bass
VR Tubes : STC/GEC 0A3 "D" Getter - > more warmth then RCA OA3s,
                RCA 0C2 "0" Getter  -> provides sonic clarity
Output Tubes : Philips EL34 MetalBase NOS tubes -> I prefer EL34s with the Hazen grid mod which sounds more transparent/sonically clear than KT66 tubes ( e.g. NOS GEC Grayglass)

Torii Switches :-
(a) Bass tightening switch "on"
(b) Treble switch in middle 12 "O'clock" position
(c) 16 Ohms speaker impedance
(d) Volume normally 5-6 clicks on the stepped attenuator

When I first bought the amp ( and even after a few hundred hours of initial burn-in), I had preferred to leave the positive feedback switch in the "off" position because the sound became too diffuse sounding.

After another extended burn-in from normal usage ( I lost count!) which took over 1 year, the amp actually sounds much better with the positive feedback switch activated.
The soundstage seems wider but the sonic images are now still focused.

So for those who have just bought this wonderful amp and are still in the breakin process ( even after the initial few hundred), please continue to be patient.
You will definitely get to this final stage of the burn-in process whereby every piece of music is natural sounding, makes you tap your foot in delight and pulls you into the music.

The holy grail, IMHO, is the natural recreation of recorded music.

In no particular order :-
Piano notes have a natural and extended decay.
Bass is nice and tight.
Cymbals have a natural shimmer.
Stringed instruments such as violin strings have "air".

With my current setup, for every piece of music that I listen to, I am instantly transported to the venue where the recording took place.
All the ambient sounds are reproduced.

This could be either an intimate jazz nightclub ( ala Barbara Streisand One "Night Only") or a Concert Hall ( ala Adele's Live concert at the Royal Albert Concert Hall) or even a cathedral ( with classical music).

The natural ambience of the setting is just "there".

The movie soundtack from the "Untouchables" just makes me want to cry like a baby.....
Any piece of Yo Yo Ma's music could probably crack the heart of any Greek/Roman/Italian Stone statue out there.

Enough said. Wink
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #96 - 05/22/15 at 07:21:19
 
Here's my brief experience with the KT66 v. EL34 dilemma people sometimes wonder about.  I think a lot of it depends on your speakers.  I have Klipsch Heresy's, which are a sealed design.  They have great tight bass all by themselves.  When I pair them with the KT66, it choked the life out of the music I listened to.  The music through the Klipsch Heresy's sounded anemic and I really felt that I had to supplement with a subwoofer.  

I recently switched to the new Mullard EL34 that Upscale sells.  This was a revelation after listening to the KT66 for 5 months.  The EL34 bass is loose and boomy, but with my Heresy's are just right.  I keep the bass control switch off and my Heresy's sound great, WITHOUT A SUB.  

YMMV, but too much bass control can be a bad thing.  Plus, now I get all of the benefits of the Hazen Grid Mod, which has been really fun to listen to as well.

I really wish I would have done this sooner.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #97 - 05/30/16 at 22:38:33
 
Hi all, I'm closing in on 3000 hrs with my Torii IV and still crazy over it. I've
tried many different input tubes but have been running Phillips 5r4gys rectifiers most of the time. Recently found a good testing pair of 1942/45 RCA 5u4g smooth plates and bought them, WOW!
My first impression was more clarity yet a little mellower than the Phillips. The only downside was maybe a bit smaller soundstage. I swapped out some Amperex 7308's to some Siemens branded Tele 7dj8 inputs and everything came to life, amazing. The 7dj8 is a nice fit for the Torii. Very cool how much fun music and equipment can still be after 40 years of playing with it.

Regards
Paul

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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #98 - 05/30/16 at 23:18:44
 
Hey Paul, great to hear! Isn't it amazing what a rectifier will do in these machines?  I recently popped a 'forties Philco 5Y3G into my CSP2+ and was really pleased with the change. A bit more dynamics, a bit more clarity. The older the better seems to be the rule I am finding with rectifiers! 'Forties RCA 5U4Gs that I used in my Torii Mk III for years were fantastic! Now I have 'Forties 5V4G in there. . . just works best with my tube complement.
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #99 - 12/29/16 at 16:37:47
 
I've only had my Torii mkIV for only a few days now and am loving it already. This thread has been so interesting and helpful, thanks to all that have contributed to it. So far I'm using all of the tubes Steve sent with it except that I'm using a matched quad of RCA 6L6GC black plates instead of the EL34's. I've ordered NOS RCA 5u4 rectifiers, both NOS Mullard and Siemens input tubes and Genelex Gold Lion KT66 output tubes to play around with. Eventually I'll get some Holland metal base EL34's and GEC gray glass KT66's. By the time the Torii burns in I just find the tube compliment that suits me. Thanks again for all your input.
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