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Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations (Read 10313 times)
Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #30 - 02/08/14 at 08:37:55
 
It has been a couple of months since I listened to my Torii MK4.

I have lost track of the exact number of hours in total but I believe that my amp and current tube/speaker combination has reached a new final level of musical enjoyment.

The forgiving nature of the Torii MK4 now applies to every piece of music which I play on the system. I suppose this was the trait of the Torii MK3? Wink
By "forgiving", I'm referring to the aspect whereby one can listen to every single track of any CD and not be put off by any song.
Most amps and audio systems are such that one can only listen to a couple of "favourites" and have to skip the other tracks.
This situation no longer applies to my Torii MK4.

In addition, I'm finally at the ZEN stage whereby I no longer analyze any of the music tracks.
Every music track I play just grabs me and makes me float in the music.

I also mentioned earlier that I was using mismatched 4 ohms speakers on the 8 ohms taps.
Now I really won't consider getting the 16ohm ZUs as originally planned coz I really don't need it any more.

I sincerely hope all other Torii MK4 owners out there will also reach this audio level with their audio chains too!

Just a quick summary of my audio chain:
(No more need to tinker anymore!!!! Wink
Oppo 95 -> SoundSilver symmetry silver cables -> Torii MK4 -> Clearday DoubleShotgun silver speaker cables-> Alesis Monitor One MK2 Passive speakers

Tubes: ALL NOS
(Also finally no more tuberolling required!!! Wink Whew and a tremendous sigh of relief)

Brimar 5r4GY rectifier "D" getters
RCA NOS OA3 "D" getters
RCA OC2 "O" getters
Holland Heerlen made Pinched Waist PCC88 "D" getters
GEC Gray glass KT66 ("CUP" getters??? my guess since the gray glass obscures my view)
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #31 - 02/08/14 at 14:44:25
 
Congratulations LS!
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #32 - 02/11/14 at 10:02:41
 
Hi Will,

Thanks. Smiley

My current Torri MK4 combo now allows me to enjoy redbook CDs, and even MP3s too!
I have some music tracks bought a long time ago from Amazon and they were only available in that format.
The MP3s no longer sound like CRAP.

Hi res files still sound better but I am no longer restricted to just hi res music as when the Torii MK4 first arrived in my home.

My Tony Bennett Duets redbook CD currently sounds like a "live" jazz performance is taking place in my home.
I won't even need to get a hi res version if such a thing exists.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #33 - 02/13/14 at 01:07:40
 
Lord Soth,

I am having a similar experience. Extraordinary detail, micro and macro, and micro dynamics, AND forgiving! I seem to be most happy with Psvane 5881s (sort of between the lush, round and detailed tone of EL34s and the linear and drier Tungsol KT66s). The Psvanes took a long time to get there, but here they are round, sweet, linear and detailed. Right now complimented by early 50s RCA 5U4G-STs, Westinghouse labelled 50s OB3s, RCA cryo'd OC2s, and Russian made Zearix labelled PCC88s.

I love the people who give us the possibility to feel the Players in the living room!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #34 - 02/13/14 at 04:07:48
 
I couldn't be more pleased with the results you're all getting with the MK IV post burn-in and just wanted to drop in to say hi and give you some insights...

My favorite input tube in the TORII MKIV is a Siemens PCC88 / 7DJ8 long bottle.  However, 7DJ8's in general are great due to their high linearity in this amp.  Really tightens the bass on problematic speakers not to mention the transparency and silkiness are amazing.  

My second favorite is the 6N23P and I am trying to ship TORII's with this tube in place of the Electro Harmonix 6922 due to recent noise issues with the current batch of EH6922's.  

The 6N23P tubes are all over the place matching wise.  I bring this up because I found in the TORII MK IV as well as the Mystery Amp, it is important to have both input tubes matched in gain so that both channels put out the same amount of power at any given point on the volume dial.  With dual volume it of course wouldn't matter, but with a single ganged volume control it's nice to at least start with perfectly matching channels.

So using the 6N23P I installed 10 tubes in the MK IV, one at a time and measured the power output from the amplifier to see how big the differences would be.  (iPod as a source with 1/2 volt output) and the amplifier turned exactly half way up, which represents a nice healthy listening level on most any speaker.

The lowest tubes allowed the amp to put out 2 watts RMS, while the highest tubes allowed the amp to put out 13 watt RMS at the same volume setting.  Also the weaker tubes that gave the 2 watt figure limited the max power of the amp to 20 watts, while the stronger tubes held perfectly clean past 30 watts.  

Bottom line is that you don't really want to have 3.4 watts on one side and 6.5 watts on the other because your imaging will suffer as well as dynamics.

And as far as I can tell when studying the amplifier at listening levels there is a PEAK RMS level of 2 watts with the average being less than 1 watt.  However, the peak power at this same listening level is over 17 watts making it's headroom exceed 12db on the weakest input tubes.  Of course if the music wasn't compressed and we had normal strength tubes this same level would yield almost twice that.  Ahh, the magic of tubes... 24dB of headroom is more than most CD's with compression of any kind so the dynamic headroom of the amplifier exceeds the ability of the recordings.

Anyway, if you run your TORII MK IV's with EL34's and haven't tried 7DJ8's be sure to do so.  Same is true for most other output tube choices as well.

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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #35 - 02/13/14 at 05:48:49
 
I think with my cryo'd Tungsol KT66 that some early 60s Siemens PCC88s are a favorite of mine too. They are not tall bottles, but very nice with the Tungsols. With some inputs the TS KT66 can be a little edgy to me they are so spacious, defined, powerful and dynamic, but with these Siemens they are beautiful. Funny, I had just bought some tall bottle Siemens PCC88s that will be coming soon.

EDIT: Now that I am exploring the TS KT66 after the Psvanes, I find the KT66 more difficult by comparison. With thier inherent dynamics, articulation, openness, they seem more responsive to the inputs for better or worse, and sound quite good with some, and too edgy for me with others. The bass is more controlled with them also, my usual peaks at 40-45 and 60-65 hardly an issue. They appear not as forgiving, but exhibit characteristics that could be pretty amazing, especially for a big, tight bass. I am doing some measurements and EQs, and will report later, but the first measurements are interesting. The peaks and valleys of the Psvanes 5881 are pretty different than those of the KT66 bottom to top.
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« Last Edit: 02/13/14 at 22:52:54 by will »  

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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #36 - 02/20/14 at 19:01:58
 
I have been listening to Siemens tall bottle PCC88/7DJ8s for a few days now. Not enough for them to be burnt in, but they are really sounding good here too with cryo'd Tungsol KT66s....rich, balanced, warmish, and detailed.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #37 - 02/21/14 at 01:26:14
 
I happen to be using Tesla yellow label (pre-war) PCC88's with the kind of results that you described.
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #38 - 03/06/14 at 03:08:41
 
Hi everyone,

I'm a big fan of the Game of Thrones ( "GOT" ) mini-series ( music + show ) .

Wanted to share some more of the great experience I am having using the Torii MK4 in a home-theatre setup.

I am getting amazing 3D holographic sonics with just a simple 2 speaker system without any subs or room treatment .... Blah blah blah.

For e.g., during the opening sequence of the GOT, there is an orb representing the Sun. There is a sonic effect of "sizzling" heat emanating from the Sun from different vantage points from a 3D sonic viewpoint.

The sound of the sizzling heat was so intense and realistic that a family member sitting on the sofa with me jumped slightly coz she thought that she would be burnt to a crisp by the Sizzling Sun!
There is no real heat generated, of course, except from the tubes Wink but this just shows how realistic the Mk4 can render 3D surround sound for home theatre usage! Smiley
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #39 - 03/06/14 at 13:53:17
 

That's pretty awesome, LS. I love GOT as well, I think I need to rewatch a bunch of episodes on the Mystery Amp now. Though my Home Theater setup is no slouch, it doesn't have that 3D effect the Decware gear brings out!
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #40 - 03/07/14 at 01:40:52
 
Hi LR,

I've seen the online pictures of your wonderful setup.
Your listening space is more demanding than mine.

My music / home theatre room is a cozy man-cave whereby my position is slightly further than near field listening - about 12-13 feet away from the speakers.
This is why, IMHO, I could  still get those 3D effects without having to fiddle with room treatments and such , which I believe is required for most listening rooms.

My setup is based on just the simple principle of the audio equilateral triangle.
I also went through a diverse bunch of interconnects etc like most people until I reached audio nirvana.
System synergy was also by luck, I suppose. Wink

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grillski2000
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #41 - 03/20/14 at 06:44:21
 
Has anyone tried different power tubes? I am using the KT66 just bought some 6V6's made by "Reflector" NOS. Anyone try out 6V6's?
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #42 - 03/20/14 at 12:14:15
 
6V6 will not work in this amp.
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grillski2000
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #43 - 03/22/14 at 06:19:08
 
Oops I ment 6L6. Anyone try those yet? I just got some. They need breaking in so I really cant compare them yet.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #44 - 03/22/14 at 13:39:54
 
I have not tried 6L6 in the amp. The 6L6 is an older development that the KT66 was meant to improve on. According to Steve's tube comparison chart, a 6L6 offers an overall wetter tone (more lush?), less power, looser bass and muffled highs. Why anyone would want that over the KT66 or EL34 is beyond me.
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DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
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